Transcript of 180-10131-10325.pdf

================================================== Page 1 ================================================== 180-10131-10325] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 JFK Assassinatio;1 System Date: [0/19/20 Identification 'om Agency Infom Ition AGENCY HSCA RECORD NUMBER 180-10131-10325 RECORD SERIES SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIM; ONY AGENCY FLE NUMBER = 014725 Document Info: mation ORIGNNATOR KSCA FROM: TOVAR; BERNARD HUGH TO TITLE : DEPOSITION OF BERNARD HUC;H TOVAR_ DATE ; 06/29/1978 PAGES : 48 SUBJECTS : CIA, METHODOLOGY TOVAR, BERNARD HUGH; TEST IMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIO ), DEFECTION TO RUSSIA DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICA TION Top Secret RESTRICTIONS 3 CURRENT STATUS Redact DATE OF LAST REVEW = 03/26/1997 OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS Box 5 w9_ NR 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 1 ================================================== Page 2 ================================================== IVr Negrr / C @.4 I En = 8 TESTIMONY OF : PAGE Bernard Hugh Tovar 2 5 6 5 9 10 12 i3 1: 85 16 17 3 19 z0 31 32 ~3 24 MH 48331 DOcId:32277210 Page 2 Tod #ecret ================================================== Page 3 ================================================== AFRANCE msl Iur Segme/ ASSASSINATION OF ' JOHN F KENNEDY 2 3 Thursday , Jime 29 , 1978 5 U , S House of Representatives , 6 John F _ Kennedy Subcommittee of ~ 7 Select Committee on Assassinationf Washington , D; C. peposition of: BERNARD HUGH TOVAR Icalled for examination by staff counsel for the subcomittee 12 pursuant to notice _ in thle O1:fices of House Annex IIE Room 3370 , i3 Isecona and D; Streets _ Southwest, Washington _ D. C., beginning at i4 2.00 0'clock P.m. before Alhert Joseph LaFrance 'a Notary Publici 15 Iin and for the District of Calunbia . when were present on behalf 16 of the respective parties : 17 For the Subcommittee: 13 MICHAEL GOLDSMITH . ESQ . Staff Counsel 19 ELI'LABETH WOLF 20 For the Deponent : (There was- representaticn by counsel) 22 ; Hh 48331 DocId 132277210 Page 3 Tor #ECDeT ================================================== Page 4 ================================================== Iur #egue/ 2 TESTIMON! OF RUGH TOVAR 2 Mxr Goldsmith _ State your name for 'the record . Mr _ Tovar I my name B_ Hugh . My full nane is Bernard Hugh Tovar. Mr _ Goldsmith_ Mr _ Tovar my name is Michael Goldsmith , Senator Staff Counsel of tlie Select Comittee on Assassinations I have Ibeen designated by the Committee to take your deposition today. You are here voluntarily today? Mr _ Tovar. Yes . 10 Mr _ Goldsmith You hive the right to have counsel present Do you waive that right? 82 Mr _ Tovar. Yes. 13 Mr . Goldsmith. Have 'ou read a copy of the Committee S 14 supporting resolution? i5 Mr - Tovar Yes : 16 Mr _ Goldsmith _ Have vou had a chance to read Rule Number 17 4? 18 Mr _ Tovar. I have . 19 Mr _ Goldsmith _ The Committee rules provide for the tran- 20 script of a deposition to he made available to a witness and 31 actually be delivered for retention by any witness that gives 22 the Comittee a statemnent. However by virtue of the arrange- ment that the Committee ha:; worked out with the CIA, the Agency 24 has askea us to request Agency employees testifying before us 25 to waive the right actually to receive a CopY of the transcript; HH 48331 DocId.82277210 Page tnd #FPDet sign ================================================== Page 5 ================================================== IUr Wcune/ The reason for that- 13 because the transcript Erequently 2 will contain classified in formation ana the Agency prefers for that information to be kept in our secure area here. :So I woula like to ask you to waive your right to receive a copy of 5 your statement but in S0 dving , I want to assure you that you will be given a right to review the: transcript for accuracy make coment upon it and if necessary to give an additional statement _ Mr _ Tovar. I agree _ Mr _ Goldsmith. I wou Ld like to inform you that the court reporter will provide:you . 'vith a transcript ana the transcript 12 will be certified by the reporter as a complete _ accurate and i3 true record of all the tes:imony that you give here today. 14 Now _ you are employed by the CIA, is that correct? 15 Mr _ Tovar. Yes_ 16 Mr Goldsmith _ I had given you earlier a copy 'of a. letter i7 dated 23 March 1978 from M: . Carlucci to the Chairman of this 1a Comittee. Have you haa a chance to read that letter? {9 Mr - Tovar. I bave = 20 Mr _ Goldsmith. Do Yo} understand it? Mr - Tovar. I underst ina it. 22 Mr _ Goldsmith: Then [ think we are ready to proceed to ~3 the substance of the quest ioning. What 19 your present position 24 with the _CIA? Mr _ Tovar. I am the ' hief of the Counterintelligence MW 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 5 Tp SfcrfT ================================================== Page 6 ================================================== Iur Wcvmz / Staff of the Directorate o: Operations Mr _ Gotdsmith _ How long have you been working in that capacity? Mr _ Tovar. Ever since a year ago April. 5 Mr _ Goldsmith _ How long have you been working with the Agency? Mr _ Tovar_ Thirty:Yea rs . Mr - Goldsmith _ What was your assignement prior to becom- Ing Chief of the CI Staff? 1o Mr _ Tovar. I was rece ntly returned from overseas where I was Station Chief in Bangkck ana three years before that , #2 Chief of the Station in Lac's _ 13 Mr Goldsmith _ Prior to assuming your position as Chief -145 of-the-CI Staff had you' had . extensive experience in the area of 1S counterintelligence? 16 Mr _ Tovar. No not pa.rticularly. We don t as a rule specialize_ We are normally generalists. I do not consider 13 myself a counterintelligence expert_ Mr Goldsnith _ During: the Years 1959 to '63 what position= 20 dia you occupy with the Age ncy? Mr _ Tovar. In :1959 I was Chief of Station in Kuala; 22 Lumpur in Malaysia_ 13 In 1920 , I came back and I Ivas originally Deputy Chief ana 24 then Chief of the Branch ir. Far East Division which controls 29 operations in_ the Phillipires , Malaysia , Indonesia, Australia, B 48331 DocId"32277210 Page 6 Top CfCret ================================================== Page 7 ================================================== Iur @)etnE| 5 New Zealand , and Oceania. That was util 1964 _ Mr - Goldsmith _ Have 'ou had a chance to review CIA document nuber 1817 and te pages that follow it? Mr _ Tovar. Yes , I ha ze read these . I had not read these _ They were released by one 'f my subordinates Mr _ Friedlander _ Mr Goldsmith _ Are You teling us that today is the first_ chance you had to read theia? Mr _ Tovar_ I dia not reaa; them this time _ They went to you , to the Comnittee but 3 have since read them . Mr : Goldsmith_ They Iere prepared by whom? Mr _ Tovar _ Jack Friedllander , Chief of Operations _ They 12 were signed by him, not pri pared by him. would have been i3 originated probably by Mr = Kowalski or Mr - Bradley , I am not 14 sure which _ I think Kowal:;ki almost certainly. 1: Mr - Goldsmith_ The mcmorandum which is labeled CIA No. 16 1817 was a response by the Agency to an inquiry by the 17 Comittee as to whether it was standard operating procedure for 13 the Agency to debrief what in effect were repatriated defectors '9 I believe it is fair to sa" by , way of summary that the memo 20 bays that it was not in fait standard operating procedure during the years 1959 to '6;3 to debrief such individuals _ Is 22 that correct? 23 Mr Tovar, Insofar a:; I uderstand it_ My knowledge is. 24 limitea to what I see here before me in the paper. During this 25 period in guestion I was not involved , so I didn 't know what NM 48331 DocId: 92277210 Page 7 Tod #fcret They ================================================== Page 8 ================================================== IUr EcbuEi the current policy was then_ What I have been told since by those: who should know is that there was no policy a: set) forth here . Mr - Goldsmith_ DO Yo11 know what the criteria were for 5 selecting the 117 individuals whose files were reviewed? Mr _ Tovar. No . I thnk someone mentioned the other day that the names were incorporated in a memorandum I think ori- ginionally by the FBI but' would not certify to that. Mr = Goldsmith_ Mr . Tovar, since you have no direct 0 knowledge as to the manner in which this meno was prepared and for example_ you don t knov the criteria that was used for 2 choosing these 117 people I am not going to ask you guestions ;3 pertaining to that document: _ I woula like to request that you 14 communicate with the Offici of Legislative Counsel at the 1S Agency ana tell them the individual who was involved in the 16 actual direct preparation (f the document so that I could ' spend: some time with him_ Ia Mr - Tovar_ The documnt , 0f course , 1s over my signature 19 SO I stand behind the docuinent _ I am responsible for what 20 was said there . If it is ~correct then I am incorrect in leeting that document out I have no personal first hand know- 22 ledge of the research he d.a to arrive at the conclusion here 13 which he presented to me and I endorsed . I am preparea to stand 24 behina it but I will give :ou his name Mr _ Goldsmith I wan : to ask you some questions about thei MM 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 8 Top #fcRfT ================================================== Page 9 ================================================== IWr Wicbic/ document _ CIA no . 1818 inilicates that CI Staff has completed a review of the files of 117 US persons who had "defectea" to the USSR between 1959 ana 63 and since returned to the United States . Is that correct? '58 to 632 5 Mx Tovar _ Yes . Mr - Goldsmith_ I wou .& like you to revlew the statement under the name Thomas Morr: dian. M-O-R-R-I-D-I-A-N. While you read that paragraph I wil:. state for the record thst the way the meno is set forth it indicates that it was not standara 10 operating procedure to deb:ief such individuals , that of 117 people whose files were reviewed ten were debriefed. 12 Then it proceeds to list te ten individuals who in fact were 13 debriefed. 14 I have now requested Ibr_ Tovar to read the first sumary IS which is right next to the name of the first person who was 16 debriefed. 17 Mx _ Tovar. Yes sir. Ia Mr _ Goldsmith _ Mhen' did that Individual defect? Is Mr _ Tovar_ 1947 is the :year: heiwent to: the: USSR. I 29 assue that.is the year he defectea, if that is the term. Mr - Goldsmith _ So that in fact that individual was not 22 soneone who defected between 1958 and 1963? ~3 Mx . Tovar _ That is correct_ 24 Mr Goldsmith _ Let u:; look at the next individual under 25 B , Joseph Marshall. H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 9 Tod YFcrfT only ================================================== Page 10 ================================================== IVF @egie | Mx _ Tovar. Yes sir. 2 Mr _ Goldsmith _ When dlid Mr Marshall defect? 3 Mr _ Tovar _ It is not clear He was born in the US in 1897 . He said he was employed. in Kawaii in 1921_ There is no 5 indication whence he went I.0' the USSR_ Mx _ Goldsnith _ There :5 no 'indication he defected between '58 and 63? Mr _ Tovar _ No . He Wiis arrested by the Soviets in 1945 _ Conceivably he might have (lefected after that_ 10 Mr _ Goldsmith. The letter "C" Tommaro S-G-O-V-I-0_ Would you please read that section ana tell u5 when this indi- 12 vidual defected? i3 Mr _ Tovar_ Again _ 1 he went to the USSR with his parents 14 in the 19309_ No indicaticn when he defected_ Be left the iS USSR in 1960 _ No way of telling. 16 Mr - Goldsmith_ This individual did not defect between 17 "58 and 63? Ia Mr _ Tovar. At last We: have no indication he dia _ One 19 would assue to the contrary. 20 Mr Goldsmith. Lettej "D" Mary Mackler will you please read the first summary and tell us when she defected? 22 Mr _ Tovar _ There is I.0 indication when she defected. She went to the USSR with ker parents in 1931 _ Sometime after 24 married a Soviet_ 25 Mr - Goldsmith_ Again , no indication she defected between HH 48331 DocId"32277210 Page 10 Top #fCdet ================================================== Page 11 ================================================== iUr Hcvie| '58 and 63? Mr _ Tovar. No. ' Mr _ Goldsmith_ Would you look at letter "E" , Sonia and Frea A-S-I-N-I-A-N. When 'lid defect? 5 Mr = Tovar. They renoimnced their US citizenship in 1948 . So I assue that is the Opierative Year. Nr - Goldsmith _ Will {ou look atithe letter "p" now? 8 Mr _ Tovar_ Jack KuraLski_ Mx Goldsmith_ When Hia he defect? 10 Mr Tovar. He recoun zed his US citizenship in 34 ana departed USSR I assume in .1934 _ 12 Mr - Goldsmith _ The point I am trying to: make is that the 13 memo responding to the Comnittee 9 inquiry makes reference to i4 ten Individuals who 'defectied between the years 58 and '63 . X5 Ttothen proceed to provide us with ten names,. But in fact, 15 if we continue to look thr)ugh the list we will see that seven of tbe ten individuals did not defect during that time period. Ia Some 0f them aia return duzing that time period. 19 Mr _ Tovar _ Ana were Jebriefed. 20 Mr . Coldsmith_ And Were debriefed. 31 Mx . Tovar Contacted . 22 Mr = Goldsmith_ Of th? ten , perhaps three Or four returned "3 during the relevant time period. I asked those questions 24 mainly to draw your" attention to the fact that the response 29 given was not really HA 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 11 Top CfcrfT they ================================================== Page 12 ================================================== 4U0 0)cuIL I 10 Mr _ Tovar. precisely what you wanted? 2 Mx Goldsmith _ Yes Mr _ Tovar, I_ don t know the answer to that. I would assume that the criteria they pplied here as best they coula 5 was when did he defect, when did he return was he debriefed or contacted? In some cases they hit one out of three_ in other cases two out of three_ I think they were giving the best correlation with Your criteria that coula. Mr Goldsmith_ I unde rstand that_ My point might be then that the introductory sect:.on should not have stated that these were people in 1958 and '6 ; when in fact were not i2 Mr _ Tovar. You are right. That is an Incorrect statenent i3 Is your reguesting memo bere? That is not a very good state- 14 ment . I: Mr _ Goldsmith. Here is the letter dated April 6 , 1978 16 which I show . you just for your inforation to show you what the 17 Comittee was requesting from the Agency . Jf you will look Ia under number two _ 19 Mr _ Tovar: Then this woula appear to correlate with that_ 20 You askea to indicate wheter the AGency from 58 to '63 interviewed or debriefed fc rmer American defectors So , the 22 time defected is not the" operative consideration_ Mr _ Goldsmith No , it. was not 24 Mr _ Tovar. The time Gf the debriefing 28 Mr _ Goldsmith_ Yes , that would be the" focus _ BM 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 12 Top SECRFT they they they ================================================== Page 13 ================================================== IWr weguci 11 Mr _ Tovar So these voula be at_least consistent with that_ Mr _ Goldsmith _ Yes, 'hat is true. I woula like also for purposes of further clarif:-cation, to have you read the letter dated 12 1978 startin with the second full paragraph _ It is not nubered _ Mr = Tovar. Yes _ Mr _ Goldsmith. I show you that only for your background purposes not to ask you any questions about it. In any event , I would appreciate having the nae of the individual who prepared the meno passed a..ong to the Office of the Legislativei Counsel . 12 Mr _ Tovar _ Yes sir. i3 Mr _ Goldsmith_ The response that was provided to the i: Comittee indicates that the CIA had no standard precedure fori 15 debriefing returning US de:ectors _ What was the basis for thatl 16 policy or actually for the absence of the policy? 17 Mr = Tovar _ I don t XilOw _ I can speculate only L # not Ia having been there and not having any involvement I aon't 9 know what mentality of those in charge was at that tine 20 Mr _ Goldsmith _ What Iould your specilation be? 31 Mr _ Tovar. I would speculate that the contact with and debriefing, in effect the "upervision of. Americans in that 13 category woula be FBI s prerogative and the Agency as a rule 22 woula not have had any bas:.c interest or reason to be involved- 15 uless there were a specif:c counterintelligence concern _ MH 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 13 Tnp #fcrftt May ================================================== Page 14 ================================================== IUr Q)cbE/ 12 Mr _ Goldsmith _ Des the Agency today have a_ policy of, as a matter of routine ope:ating procedure , debrie return- ing defectors? Mr - Tovar None that I am aware of. Mr Goldsnith_ Again woula you say you relied on the FBI to conduct those interiews? Mr _ Tovar_ Yes , Mr Goldsnith _ Is theere any coordination between the Agency and the FBI SO that the Bureau is informed when someone in fact is returning? Mr _ Tovar_ On Americiin defectors , the type you are speak- 12 of here? 13 Mr _ Goldsmith_ An American defector who 18 repatriated . Mr Tovar_ I know of no case where would be I5 interested in the subject _ I can t say there is a procedure 16 in being. Knowing the way we relate to the' FBI, if we knew of i7 a case 0f returning Americains _ we learned it from an 13 overseas station ana it see med of interest, we woula' probably 19 refer it directly to the FIBI by letter_ 20 I am speculating here because I know 0f no case in point. Mx .' Goldsmith There is no standard procedure for contacti 22 ingthe Bureau and informing them of a returning de fector? ~3 Mr _ Tovar _ Not that am aware 0f_ 24 Mr _ Goldsmith _ You wcula be the person who woula be aware 35 0f such a procedure? MY 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 14 Top SfcrfT fing ing they Say ================================================== Page 15 ================================================== iur #etmt | 13 Mr _ Tovar _ Berween te Soviet-East European Division and CI Staff we should be awar? of it. The two were most primarily concerned with the USSR_ [ think one or the other `of us Would infor the Bureau _ This 1.3 not our primary concern: The Americans even when I1ave been naughty boys , having gone to USSR and decided to retiirn , we still don t have necessarily a professional interest in that type of person Mr _ Goldsmith _ What Js the responsibility of the CI Staff within the CIA? Mr _ 'Tovar _ In a coup -e of sentences it is a little difficult. I will tell YOIl what we do _ The CI Staff has two 12 principal areas of activity. We are first of all a staff. 13 Are you familiar with the "taff as opposed to the division? Mr Goldsmith _ No , I am not_ IS Mr _ Tovar _ You have ";een the table of organization of 16 DDO? 17 Mr _ Goldsmith Yes i3 Mr Tovar . You know 'jenerally how W e are organized? 9 Mr - Goldsmith_ Yes _ 20 Mr = Tovar. The main "et of components of the Directorate 31 is divisions and staffs. 'he divisions operate a function overt 22 seas _ We are staff and thalt is in the' military sense we support the Directorat and we support the Director 1 we suppOr one 24 another in an advisory Capacity and in various ways . we are not an operating compollent _ We don t run spies _ We have M#48331 DOcId: 32277210 Page 15_ Tod #Fcret they So , ================================================== Page 16 ================================================== IVr #cgmE | 14 a lot of activities which impact on operations but we are not in 24 the true sense of the term an operating element _ So, having said that, the primary field of activity fOr the CI Staff is research ajld analysis, and then the other , what we refer to as operat:.ons coordination NOw that is sort of the ter which does not S research "and analysis: is clear_ We examine and analyze case:s , essentially cases We are not gcrutinizing people_ We a:e looking at intelligence operations ola and current, primarily things that are not terribly {0 current. We don t tend to follow current operations in the analytic sense _ We take 0..1 cases and look them over to see 12 if mistakes were made 1 to {;ee ifv can derive lesssons from i3 mistakes made in the past. We publish papers for the Agency s 14 community at: large , all in the REA field:: 1; On the; other: side we :unction in the sense of a true staff 16 We keep our fingers on the activity of the Directorate overseas 17 We monitor what they are doing, not in the sense of being a spooky but we simply read sbe correspondence _ We are given 19 normal distribution of most: correspondence coming back from 20 overseas _ We keep a hana (1n the pulse of coun terintelligence 31 activities abroad. To do this, we obviou:;ly have to have reasonable currency 13 on operational activity ac::oss the board_ So , we are generally 24 aware of the operational piltterns of activity that prevail in 25 various overseas stations On that basis we are in a position HM 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 16 Tod Rfcdft ================================================== Page 17 ================================================== IUr Vcgil/ 15 to advise the DD or Directorate as to the level of performancei the . kind of activity conduted; the quality, the proper or improper degree of emphasi::_ We maintain an overview on behalf of DDO _ 5 Mr Goldsmith Is your concentration oriented towards counterintelligence threats; of a foreign nature? Mr = Tovar Yes , totally. Mr _ Goldsmith _ You woula not be concerned at all with counterintelligence threat:; domestically? Mr _ Tovar _ None whatsioever_ M Goldsmith_ Is it correct to say that woula be the responsibility of the Bureau? Mr _ Tovar. Absolutely . ~Mra_Goldsmith. ~Now;-lee-Harvey Oswald: returnea from the 15 Soviet Union in 1962 . mhi:e in the Sovietion Union he worked 16 as a worker in a radio fact.ory_ Upon his return I imagine there 17 was someone concerned about: his being a counterintelligence 13 threat. Is it fair to say = ana I do not want to ask you leading 19 questions but would it be fair to that would be more 20 the responsibility 0f the F;ureau rather than the Agency upon 21 his actual return? 22 Mr _ Tovar_ Yes the cjuestion whether or not he was , let 133 uS say , a counterintelliger:ce threat. 24 MI . Goldsmith _ KGB acjent? Mr _ Tovar _ That woulc[ be a Bureau concern , no question H 48331 DOcId:92277210 Page 17 Top #FCrfT say ================================================== Page 18 ================================================== IuT ecbic / 16 about that. Mr Goldsmith _ However , would' the Agency make any effort to interview Osald while O:wala was entroute from the Soviet Union to the United States?? 5 Mr Tovar. You are speaking of what the Agency might havej done in '63 or '62? Mx . Goldsmith _ 62 . Mr = Tovar Again , we are speculating concerning the intelligence 0f the men who ) were in charge then . Today I 10 woula like to think we wou . be interested in what he is doing_ At the time I don ` t know _ I woula think not_ On the i2 other hand , I couldn t they would or should be interested_ 13 It was not their primary precise prerogative _ I think if they 14 could , as I assume they dirl, the Bureau would discharge its 15 responsibilities-vis-a-vis any American' Of questionable 15 propensity , I shoula think they woula be 'deferring to the 17 Bureau_ 13 Mr Goldsmith . That voula be the aspect of Oswala where 19 there was a concern taht hee posed a counterintelligence threat_ 20 What about the' fact that O:iwala may have had positive intelli- gence information that wou__& have been helpful to the Agency? 22 That would not be within tlle jurisdiction 0f the Bureau? 23 Mr Tovar. I think in} that context it might have been appropriate for the Agency if the assued the point you made to seek an interview with him I think the appropriate IM 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 18 TnP #fCDeT why say ================================================== Page 19 ================================================== Iur #cumE 17 vehicle for that woula have been the Domestic Contact Division which I think handled most of the contacts referred to in this memorandum . Mr _ Goldsmith_ What is the function of the Domestic Contact Division? Mx Tovar. They are :esponsible for intelligence that can be checked properly anil legally in the United States normally through American Jusinessmen or American persons and nonofficials who travel aboad and acquire intelligence of 10 interest. This is not jus : USSR. It coula be any other country. Their primary fiela of activity is to contact ana 12 debrief on a vluntary basi:, if they so choose to respond 3 Americans who return from o)verseas i: Mr Goldsmith. I notice that the Comittee S inquiry IS concerning the CI S policy as to returning American defectors 16 was routed to your staff (I Staff_ When the memo was prepared 17 by the CI Staff for the Colnittee , was it done with the thought 1a of representing the entire agency or just the CI Staff? 19 Mr _ Tovar_ It is dif icult for us to presume to speak for 20 the entire Agency : I thin < on this matter we are speaking for the Directorate of Operatinns not for the entire Agency . 22 Mr - Goldsmith Fine _ That is really the area with which 733 I was concerned: anyway , Di cectorate of Operations _ 24 Mr . Tovar _ The only 'Jther element of the Directorate 0f Operations that woula be 0€ an interest in this type of thing, which might be construed a; having an interest in this type M 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 19 TaP cfcrFT ================================================== Page 20 ================================================== Iur E)cwuE | 18 of activity, would be the SC Division On this I think the CI staff coula be considered as speaking for the Directorate _ 3 Mr _ Goldsmith . Is thex Domestic Contact Division part of the CI Staff? Mr - Tovar. NO , part (f the Directorate of Operations Mr - Goldsmith_ The response 0f the Agency dated April 20 , 1978 , which appears in CIA Number 1818, indicates that contact seems to be based (n opportunity and circustance _ Then it goes on to. say only ten of the 117 persons have had any contact with CIA Woul.a it be possible for you to go into more dtail on what is meant: by opportunity ana circumstance? Mr _ Tovar In the ase cne of a policy, of a guideline , a 13 procedure , internal instruction which says you will debrief Americans who return from having resided in the USSR, in the absence 0f that, this thin:g is left to chance obviously; I 6 cannot explain to you how the names of these 11 passed the desk 17 0f whoever was in charge at: the time, but agsuing they did, 13 my guess , and it is eally a guess , woula be that the 19 person who read that, whate:ver docuent it was , woula say , Z0 "Hmmph ! He looks like he might be interesting" and perhaps would then get in contact with CCD and suggest if get in 22 contact with a person let us say he is known to be living in New York, suggest that thej' might want to seek out his location 24 ana if possible interview him. 25 H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 20 Top SfCrFT (nly they ================================================== Page 21 ================================================== IWT V)euiz / 19 I think it would be a matter of chance in the sense that the analyst' or whoever it as who reviewed that docuent, might react, and yet he or she m:-ght not , too , depending on how they woke up that morning. It ~S sheer whimsy_ Mr - Goldsmith _ Let mQ: explain to you , why the question whether or not it was stanlard operating procedure to debrief returning defectors is important to the Comittee. Since the assassination of the P-esident , there has arisen a group of researchers who have revielved the Warren Conission Report and 0 have reviewed releases nadu under the Freedom 0f Information Act by the CIA and the FBI 12 Having reviewed these materials the arguent has been made X3 that Oswald received unusu,l treatment at the hands of the CIA 14 One example of this uusual treatment is that there is no 1; record of Oswald having beien debriefed by the CIA upon his 16 return: For that reagon _ 'e are focusing on this issue Is 17 there any way you can give uS guidance on how to respond to 13 that question? 19 Mr _ Tovar. I can't becuase I am sphculating every step 30 along- the way . I would he 3itate to say more than Oswala simply didn t connect with whoever happened to be looking 22 let u5 assue his name appeared . Was his nande in the list? 13 Mr _ Goldsmith. No _ Ihat is the list of people who were 24 debriefed. 25 Mr . Tovar _ One hundrzd seventeen? HH 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 21 ToP (fcrFT ================================================== Page 22 ================================================== 0 WT V)cbuc / 20 Mr = Goldsmith - I haven't seen the list of 117 people. 2 Mr _ Tovar. What is tis? Mxr . Goldsmith _ That is a list 0f 350 odd people I was going to ask you about. Hwwever since you don t have knowledge of the 117 _ I am not going to ask ~ou about them _ Mx Tovar : If Oswald's name was on the list, I can 't explain why he might not haave been contacted: Maybe he didn 't appear attractive or interesting enough _ I don t know what information might have bee:1 given with these names on the list, C such as a memo Erom the FB [ or State Department , whoever haa originated it, what they s.id that would have titilated the 12 analyst Who might have see:1 it that would have elicited a 13 response on the part of thee analyst who would say 'Ah , let 4s I look into this further. IS Mr _ Goldsmith _ In pa :ticular, a lot of focus has been 16 given to Mr - Robert Edward Webster_ who appears in CIA Number 17 1820 who defected approximately the same time that Oswald dia 1a and returned at approxlmately the sane time that Oswald dia ana 19 who was debried by the CIA for two weeks in Virginia _ 20 Mr _ Tovar. I didn t cnow that he was , It doesn ' t say So 21 here . 22 Mr = Goldsmith _ That Joes not indicate the extend of the 33 debriefing. That information was obtained independently by 24 this Committee _ 25 Mr - Tovar. The name neans nothing to Me S0 I can 't "J) H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 22 Top SFcRFT ================================================== Page 23 ================================================== Iur Helie| 21 enlighten you on it. 2 Mr _ Goldsmith _ Des she CIA have any affiliation with 3 organizations in the Unitel States who might be responsible for debriefing someone? 5 Mr Tovar_ Not that I am aware of_ Mr _ Goldsmith _ In otier words if anyone is going to be debriefed it would be by tle Domestic Contact Division? Mr _ Tovar _ In the intelligence sense. In the sense of elucidation of intelligence, DCD woula do it. A different typei 10 of inquiry_ personal inves :igation , the Offlce of Security, whoever it works through , voula 'be the one_ 12 The one we are talkinj about_ 1 DCD is the organizationj i3 I know of. I 'can visualizi a circumstance under which operating 4 components might seek out an individual or might have in times 15 past but I can think of i1 case in point in my Own recollec- 16 tion _ I would say , given ~he strictures on our operating in 17 the United States , we woull rely upon DCD; to do it if they had 13 any positive Intelligence (onnotation _ If it were of an 19 operational nature today_ che Foreign Resourees Division might. 20 pursue it_ 21 Mr - Goldsmith _ Yes _ Mr Tovar _ It is the division level 0f the Directorate_ 5 It is the division which Seeks in the United States to develop 24 potential intelligence assets for abroad . I think I had 29 better defer to the other people on that. That is roughly where M 48331 DocId3 2277210 Page 23 ToP @eadeT only 't ================================================== Page 24 ================================================== I Ut @umE / 22 it stands _ They certainly woula not have interest in debrief- 2 ing defectors that I am awalre of. 3 Mr Goldsmith _ In anv event , for the purposes of sumary there is today no standard operating procedure of interviewing 5 returning defectors? 6 Mr _ Tovar Right , insofar as I am aware , there 18 none Mr _ Goldsmith _ There is no standard operating procedure 8 between the Bureau and the CIA which would coordinate any effort to contact returning defectors and share inforation? io Mr - Tovar. None that I am aware of_ Mr _ Goldsmith _ Turning to another area which I woula like 12 togt into briefly, would vou define what a 201 file is? 13 Mr - Tovar _ A 201 file: is a file or files T it coula be i4 several volumes to it L which relates to an individual It IS might pose a dicotomy , a 201 file and project file _ A project 16 file might deal with an act:ivity, say collection operations in 17 Timbucktu, a broad scale o: activity involving several nubers Ia of people, there might be several 201 files , A, B , C, who were 89 asgociates in that project The 201 file would be: on the 20 individual himself_ Mr Goldsmith _ Ti woula contain primarily biographic 22 information? 23 Mx _ Tovar _ No It woula contain a much vaster some 24 of them might contain one sheet of paper with nane rank and 25 date of birth. But if the association with him developed and MR 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 24 Top #fcRFT ================================================== Page 25 ================================================== IVr @egze/ 23 became more extensive , it <night contain a considerable amount of information _ If he bec ame involved with thig ope-ation it might include operational naterial_ intelligence operations as well, all part 0f the 2 )1 complex. 5 The point I am making is that it is an Individual file as opposed to an activity ile_ Mr Goldsmith _ If yo1:wanted to learn about the operation} that an individual was inw)lved in_ woula you go to his 201 file or to his operations Eile? 80 Mr _ Tovar, I woula 9') to the 201 file first. There mightl not be an operations file_ In' fact, in the vast majority of 12 the 201 cases there are no operational files because there is i5 no hard ana fast rule on wen you' open a 201 file or who opens I4 a 201 file. 8S If I, for example , am overseas ana I become interested in 16 a person who looks to me tu) have considerable promise from the 17 operational standpoint, sa a local foreign type , I might give 1a my Ow local checks I might examine my own files to see if I know anything about him_ 'Then I say to headquarters "here is 20 Joe Doe _ He is interestiny to me for these reasons _ Will you please check againgt headq arters records and other agencies 22 and let me know if you havee anything of interest on him. Ii 33 I might not ask for a 201 file. Headquarters might then , 24 because they thought he wa.; interesting, open a 201 file_ 25 Conversely , I might likewize say this looks terribly interest_ FH 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 25 Tap FecDet ================================================== Page 26 ================================================== Iut Oegae ! 24 ing Please open a 201 file and give me all of the information you can collect on' him _ (I 3 Mr Goldsmith_ I understand that the fact that someone has a 201 file does not me;n at all that the individual was involved in any operations of the Agency . If yowwanted toget information of an operational nature , would you go both to the 201 file and operations fi.e? 3 Mr _ Tovar _ Assuing ~here was information of an opera- tional nsture? 10 Mr _ Goldsmith _ Yes _ Mr _ Tovar. Yes , indeed we woula_ 12 Mr _ Goldsmith. If soneone is an agent of the CIA I i3 am not referring now to ca:ie officers or staff agents some- i: one is a field agent for thle Agency , would that fact be indi- 15 cated in the 201 file? 16 Mr _ Tovar. Yes _ Mr . Goldsmith_ In the: Directorate of Operations someone 13 might open up a 201 file OIL an individual if the person was {9 of a potential positive int:elligence significance? 20 Mr _ Tovar : Or counterintelligence_ either one 21 Mr . Goldsmith _ That sias going to be my question_ The 22 CI Staff in particular_ wheen woula you have occasion to open a 201 file? 24 Mr _ Tovar _ CI staff sould not necessarily be the one 29 to open a 201 file. In the case of a person of CI interest , B 48331 DocId 232277210 Page 26 Tod #FCDeT only ================================================== Page 27 ================================================== IUr wcgre | 25 a fiela station might have a couter-person I described earlier 2 and become interested in h,im because he did have some CI 3 attraction or interest. The station itself or the 'division woula open the 201 file. It wou d not be us The CI Staff as a rulef 5 is not involved in that .type of thing_ At this stage of the 'Jame since we are not operating and we are not out soliciting Jew contacts we are not working in that sense of the term, we don ' t to my knowledge originate 201 files {0 Mr _ Goldsmith _ The C Staff does not open up 201 fiies? Mr _ Tovar_ There is MO reason that we couldn't. 12 Mr - Goldsmith _ As a pratical matter? i3 Mr _ Tovar _ As practical matter it does not work that way . 14 Our research is primarily :ocused upon' established cases , cases 1S that may:even be dead , terinated , or dormant, or even current 16 in certain cases , but as a rule not very many 201 file is opened: by someone else. We? may examine those files and review 13 them . We do review other activities. But the 201 file woula I9 be in existence _ They' whoula not be created by ourselves _ 20 In former days when C:; Staff files were segregated Erom 2 therest 0f the Directorate it might have been different. I 22 don t' know _ 33 Mr . Goldsmith_ When was that? 24 Mr - Tovar_ Say prior to 1974 , 1957 . Today our foles are 2 integrated in the files of the Directorate or it is in the HI 48331 DOcId 32277210 Page 27 Top FecdeT ================================================== Page 28 ================================================== Jur #DEOIE / 26 process of being integratedl. We have been working on this_ This is one of our major f..nal exercises in the past two or three years to make sure, mhen you go to the central files and research a name if there 1S something in the CI Staff reposi- tory that will turn up whenl you are making a check of the index Mx Goldsmith _ Will Ilost 201 files be open as a result of information coming into healdquarters from the field , one of the field stations? 0 Mr _ Tovar. Yes , the vast majority. In Years before when they has such programs as 'H Chaos , I assumed opened 201 12 files of their Own _ i3 Mr _ Goldsnith_ What :.5 that? Mx Tovar MH Chaos_Frogram? 13 Mr Goldsmith_ For the record, will you indicate what that 16 program is? 17 Mr = Tovar. I frankly woula rather not becuase I don ' t I3 know the precise definition of the program _ It was a program which has been described iI: the press as domestic surveillance 20 Whether that is the correct: proper designation , I don t know_ Our CI Staff does not normally open a 201 file. We don ' t have 22 occasion to _ 33 Mr _ Goldsmith_ D YOl know what the ter CI/SIG stands 74 for? Mr = Tovar _ Counter Intelligence/Special Investigative HI 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 28 Top CfcRFT they ================================================== Page 29 ================================================== 1 uI Rzumei 27 Group , I think it is. Investigative or investigations, I don ' t know which _ Mr _ Goldsmith _ Is that group still in existence today? Mr _ Tovar. No _ 5 Mr _ Goldsmith _ When lid it go out of existence? Mr _ Tovar I don t kiom exactly. Before my time I think it ended in '73 , '74 , 75 . I am not sure_ Mr _ Goldsmith_ Do yo 1 know what the function of that group was? 10 Mr = Tovar _ Only in a very vague sort of way . I have heara about it, it was the inves-igative group in the CI Staff that {2 investigated whatever the 'ZI Staff dia in those days _ I can ' t i3 speak to that with any firt hand knowledae I know some thingp i4 they did but I woula be he:itant to make a general definition of their function_ i5 Mx _ Goldsmith_ DO yo1 know whether the fuction 0f that 16 group was to investigate Ajency employees who were suspected 13 of having been penetrated? Mr Tovar _ I think , Jecause I have seen nothing in writing 19 On the subject, but I have been gtven to understand that was one 20' of their fuctions in the 'ontext 0f their responsibilities 21 that was included. But I m no authority on the subject. 22 Mx = Goldsmith_ D YO:l know whether CI/SIG woula have 13 occasion to open a 201 file? 24 Mr _ Tovar_ I don ' t kOw _ I can speculate. I don t know 25 MW 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 29 Top XfCrft ================================================== Page 30 ================================================== IUr degrz | 28 Mr Goldsmith_ What 'ould your speculation be? Mr _ Tovar _ I woula sixeculate in the days when they were functioning probably 'lid- You have a very unauthoriative witness on that subject . 5 Mr _ Goldsmith _ What is the relationship if any between the Office of Security ana the CI Staff? Mr _ Tovar _ We have blsically different functions The Office of Security is unde:: the Directorate of Administration and 1s responsible for the personnel and physical security of the entire division _ It fnncuses on personnel security and physical security: 82 The CI staff as I desiribed it, is an element of DDO i3 concerned with research and] analysis and operation and coordi- nation; The relation betrizen us and the Office of Security is 1: simply that between us and another fraternal element of the 16 Agency which has responsib:lity which sometimes cones close 17 together. 13 Mi _ Goldsnith _ Des the Office Of Security maintain '9 files which contain informntion of a derogatory nature on 70 individuals , not necessari::Y limited to Agency employees? Mr _ Tovar _ To my knowledge they don' t_ My assumption is 22 ii I have never seen what 1s in their files my asswption is; 13 that they have files ()n Agency personnel _ I cannot 24 visualize circunstances unler which they would maintain infor- mation on people who are not in the Agency or who had not been MH . 48331 DocId?32277210 Page 30 Tap tecdet they only ================================================== Page 31 ================================================== IVp @iegme/ 29 applicates for employment iind then left. Mr _ Goldsmith _ Is thee Office of Security interested in maintaining information so that if in the future an individual was being considered for eriployment in some capacity with the Agency the Secuirty Office woula have that information on him? Mr = Tovar_ I cannot visualize that heppening today Mr _ Goldsmith I wou . d like to ask you to read CIA 0786 , which is a document that this Committee obtained from the 0 Office of Security files OMI Lee Harvey Oswald_ Mr = Tovar _ That sort of suggests they maintained such 12 information then . I still cannot visualize there doing it i3 today. 14 Mr _ Goldsmith _ D YOIl think the function of the Office 0f 15 Security may be different today from what it was in 1959 with 16 regard to maintaining such files? i7 Mr _ Tovar. The fuct:-on , I would use the ter function, Ia I woula say the policy 0f he Office as far as the way the 89 office operates today . I (lon t know what they do intrinsically; 20 _ I cannot visualize their Mili ntaining that kind 0f current 31 records today. Maybe this is historic, it was in the files 22 since 1969 _ With the injulction against dest roying files , the files remained _ 24 If it was John' Q= Doe appearing today in a similar context; I woula not visualize the ()ffice of Security maintaining this NH 48331 DocId;32277210 Page 31 Top reCdcT ================================================== Page 32 ================================================== iur Hetrei 30 kind of docuent . 2 Mr _ Goldsmith_ To whom' woula this docuent go today? 3 Mr . Tovar. You mean from the State Department? Mr _ Goldsmith_ Yes , 3 State Department document _ Which is indicating that an American citizen i8 giving information, intelligence inforation t) a: 'foreign country , to whom in the CIA would that document go? Mr - Tovar _ I am not 3ue it woula come to the CIA at all because the CIA does not have responsibility for that type of 10 person _ I think it would JO to the FBI _ Mr _ Goldsmith_ Even though the individual is overseas? Mr _ Tovar _ Yes _ He is an American Again , this is i; speculation _ I don t know what moves the person who releases cables to the MOSCOw Embas 3y today. Ke might decide or some- 1: body here in State Securit? migat decide that CIA should see 16 this . In that event , it probably woula go to the Office of 17 Security as a matter 0f in Formation. ia Mr - Goldsmith _ Woula information contained in this type I9 of telegram normally lead :0 the opening of a 201 file? 20 Mr Tovar _ I would E ink not_ 21 Mr Goldsmith not? 22 Mr _ Tovar: There is nothing that suggests here this 3 is going to be of continui:1g interest to the CIA_ This is 24 1959 _ Let us say in 1962 the man came back and another message 25 came over and it indicated that he was available for discussion H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 32 Tod #ecDeT Why ================================================== Page 33 ================================================== Iur #ctme / 31 or was of interest ana So on and maybe there are reasons for debriefing, I can visualize a 201 being opened if the matter were of apparent continuin interest,. I can see no reason why a 201 would be opened in this case . Mr - Goldsmith _ What :f this telegram was followed by a aable indicating that the :.ndividual had decided to defect? Mr _ Tovar .' What do you mean? He is applying for Soviet citizenship, sO he is defec:ting here? Mr _ Goldsmith _ You a:e correct. 'I withdraw the guestion _ 10 Mr Tovar_ I think bilsically my point is that it is a fact that a 201 need not be opened up on this type C this is 62 a casual piece of informat:on If one could eliminate the 13 name Lee Barvey Oswald, wh:.ch raises Elages _ it is John Doe i4 and there is nothing in th:s La B someone might say what an SOB 1S this is but there is nothing to indicate anything but an 15 unfortunate incidental event, I woula say today, "why bother: 17 We have enought to do Without opening 201 files on people of Il 13 that nature _ The encyclopedic approach Ls not one that we IS try to appiy. 30 Bear in mind, I am doung a lot of speculating here. I perhaps shouldn t 22 Mr _ Goldsmith _ You rually aren t aware f what the 33 procedure would be in 1959 for dealing with a telegram like 24 this? 25 Mr _ Tovar . No _ I wo _ld still say today I woula not expect HH 48331 DocId:32277210' Page 33 Top WFcreT ================================================== Page 34 ================================================== IVr Megre/ 32 that kind of docuent to bue retained in Agency files anywhere . You know inter-department;l correspondence is firing paper in al1 directions 2ll the timee on an informational basis _ That does not mean it is retained. Mr _ Goldsmith _ With Fegard to this document , after 1959 your testimony is moreorles speculation but you are saying that today you don 't think that this type of docuent woula be retained and have any spec:al significance? Mr _ Tovar _ I don' t think 90 _ I am scratching my head 10 trying to visualize circu:;tances under which it coula be retained. There is nothin of interest to the' Agency _ There 2 is nothing of imediate coinnterintelligence interest. I don' t 13 know who woula retain it o: , why _ Mx Goldsmith _ For the purpose of clarification, if the IS CI asked that of the CIA, that I mean the counterintelligence 15 aspect of the CIA concernedl primarily with a foreign couter- 17 intelligence threat, in otehr words, foreign nationals , foreign; 1a citizens? 89 Mr _ Tovar_ You are aaking is it? 20 Mr _ Goldsmith. Yes ., Mr Tovar. Primarily yes , but not solely. We are 22 concerned with Americans o: counterintelligence interest. If 33 an overseas station is info)rmed by somebody that an American 24 is contacting the Soviets and is apparently engaged in what 5 looks like espionage , _ we would become interested _ That is MW 48331 DocId: 82277210 Page 34 Top #eCDet hy ================================================== Page 35 ================================================== Iup Metnl / 33 espionage I am talking abou: . Mr - Golasmith. I understand 1 Mr Tovar_ You reali:e of course With the sensitivity of Americans investigation:; 0f Americans we have to be an we 5 are extremely careful in miking the determination as to when a person is of counterintell: gence interest_ We have very strictl rules and regulations on tlie consideration of investigations_ congiderations retaining information , the rights of a person The criteria are very stringent _ Theyare under esecutive 10 order and Attorney General guidelines_ We don t approach this casually at all. It is proscribed activity. 12 Mr _ Goldsmith_ Both {S to Americans? 13 Mr Tovar _ Primarily Americans _ The Attorney General; i: is not concerned essential:y with non-US persons _ Our focus 0 1S sensitivity is on US persons who are US citizens or residents , 16 aliens or US entities _ orgiinizations 1 which are primarily 17 American in composition: 13 Mr - Goldsmith_ Again , woula you focus outside the -borders of the Unitea States? 20 Mr - Tovar _ Yes _ Ins:.de USois FBI _ Mr Goldsmith- Befor when you made reference to a station overseas , you becalle aware of an American who might 73 be involved in espionage for another coutry, you were refer- 24 to an American who wa:; living abroad , is that correct? 39 Mr _ Tovar Yes , or taveling abroad _ HH 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 35 Top #eCDet ring ================================================== Page 36 ================================================== Iur Wegue / 34 Mr _ Goldgnith _ I wou Ld like to show you CIA Number 788 2 which is the field persona lity file request form that was used to open Oswala' s 201 file. In the middle of the page there is box which states the term 'Other identification" 0 If soneone 5 wrote the nuber or letter "AG" down _ what does that stand for? Mx Tovar _ I have no idea _ What are referring to here? I cannot think 0: anything_ Mx Goldsmith The fnrm also indicates that Oswald' s file was restricted. D you know of any reason . why Oswald' s 10 file would have been restr ctea? Mr _ Tovar . Where is ~hat? 12 Mr = Goldsmith. Here i3 Mr _ Tovar - I don t know _ I don t know what criteria i4 would have usea at thit time or even . today for that matter I5 to open a restricted file_ Bear in mind, there is a lot of 16 latitude given to the indiidual who openea these things He 17 could be a very junior ana -yst who for reasons of his Own 1a decided he woula do it thi:; way . Supervlsion woula not neces- 19 sarily down there very closely behind him_ 20 Mr _ Goldsmith_ Do y1 know what the inter-agency source register 1s? 22 Mr _ Tovar , Yes _ 3 Mx _ Goldsmith_ What :S that? 24 Mr = Tovar _ As I unde:stand it, it 1s a register maintained 25 in which other agencies of the government register their H 48331 DocId: "2277210 Page 36 Top #FCrFT they NO , they get ================================================== Page 37 ================================================== Iur #egre| 35 interest in a person . Let us take 1 for example , you are workin for the Army Intelligence and you are in Germany and you become interdsted in Mr _ Smith . {et us say you check Mr _ Smith with the CIA ana with the other agencies and in SO doing you wigh to have him recorded under the ISR, Inter Agency Source Registry, the entry of his name in the ISR will normally prior interest on the part of somebody in the government , in 3 this case you are in the A:zY . I don t know what thi:; symbol is but they put two asteriskis which indicates to anybody else who checks that nane later the US Army has a prior intere:;t in that person _ {2 Mr _ Goldsmith What k:ind 0f interest would that be? i3 Mr = Tovar_ Intelligence interest to me potential 14 intelligence interest. Agalin , the ISR may have ramifications IS that I am not aware of. In my experience the ISR has been the 16 place we go to check, say , a new or potentially new source to 17 see if there is ny other p:eviously established government 13 interest in the person whia;h means keep your hands off_ The 19 military rely upon' this ve::y heavily because we coordinate thei_ 20 clandestine intelligence operations _ 11 Mr _ Goldsmith_ Would an ISR index be checked prior to 22 opening up a 201 file as a matter of routine? Mr _ Tovar. It has beizn S0 many Years since I have done 24 this _ The way we have beCi )me mechanized today I would assue 29 that a normal file check tlrough the central files of the HW 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 37 Tod #eadet flag ================================================== Page 38 ================================================== IUr WieuiL / 36 Directorate woula include (r woula turn up anything that was 2 in the ISR. I am just not sure how it works Mr - Goldsmith If sOneone Were an agent 0f another intelligence organization mould that be indicated in the 201 5 file? Mr _ Tovar. If it were an agent , agent of another service that woula be in. the ISR: only if it: had been of interest to another agency which sai "Put Joh Doe ' s name in the ISR and indicate he is a US Army intelligence source , at the very 10 least a person of interest' to the US Army Intelligence Agency _ It would not be there if the Army had not put it in So you 12 might not know_ i3 Again , I think almosit any agent of the military would rely i< upon the ISr, I would thin}: almost certainly would be entered 1S in the ISr because' they waint to maintain control of it, to 16 make sure nobody else gets in the way 2rnd interferes with their operations _ I3 Mr - Goldsmith So if someone were an agent it woula in I9 all likelihood be indicatecl, in the ISR and assuing the ISR 20 is checked by a CI person prior to opening up the file, he would 31 take note 0f that fact? 22 Mx _ Tovar _ that again _ Some of this is pretty fuzzy "3 to me . I don ' t want to mi:;lead you by extrapolating from my 24 Own ignorance. 29 Mr _ Goldsmith_ If sOneone is an agent of another MH 48331 DocId 32277210 Page 38 Top #fCReT Say ================================================== Page 39 ================================================== Jur Wetue / 37 intelligence service , that fact woula be noted in the ISR? Mr _ Tovar _ Another 05 intelligence service? ' Mr Goldsmith. Yes_ Mr = Tovar. A US milizary intelligence service yes the military intelligence service woula normally be registered in the ISR Other than th ? military, the FBI. intelligence assets woula not be registvered in the ISr to my knowledge Mr _ Goldsmith _ But tile military tends to make that list- ing? 0 Mr - Tovar _ In my expierience the miltiary has been the primary element involved in the use and the exploitation of the i2 ISR. Let me interpose ano her point here _ I am not an expert i; in these procedures" and I iM way out of touch You live most 14 of your life overseas you don:' t do these things-back at 15 headquarters _ These procerlures may be quite different in 16 actuality- I am groping through my memory to See how they were 17 dealt with on an active basis _ 13 A Eeilow like Bill Dinnelly might enlighten you much more 19 than I could about the ISR_ 20 Mr _ Goldsmith_ I unde rstand that. I think you can tell 21 am not pressing you for cletail on it_ 22 Mx _ Tovar. I would l:ke to help you_ I am prepared to specualte as I have been dqing on things that are somewhat 24 beyond my direct experience: and direct responsibility_ There 1s a limit_ Mr _ Goldsmith Now , if someone checking IS.R notes that H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 39 TaD #odeT only, ================================================== Page 40 ================================================== Ivr weguz/ 38 an individual is a militar? intelligence agent would the fact 2 of that agency status be nated and a 201 file opened on that 3 individual?- Mr _ Tovar _ I am not 3ure . I woula think it woula be _ Again , I an speculating. L think almost certainly if I were doing a file check on a person whose name came from one of the field stations ana it turned up the fact he was already registered in the ISR, if 1 person is of interest let uS say , to the US Army Intelligencve, that would automatically sort 0f 10 proscribe further attempts on my part to go in and' get involvedi I think a notation woula be made in the 201 file_ 12 Mx Goldsmith _ As a iractical matter that would be a goodi i3 reason for making the nota :ion? Mr _ Tovar _ Yes _ hS Mr _ Goldsmith _ Does the CIA regularly use the ISR? {6 Mr _ Tovar. We maintain it as I understand it_ 17 Mr Goldsmith So if someone is an agent of. the CIA, I3 would that fact be noted i:1 the ISR? 9 Mr _ Tovar No , I don ' t believe it woula_ Again _ you 20 can check on that to make 'rertain Donelly I think can help much better on it. I cannot visualize all our sensitive sources 22 being registered there _ 33 Mr Goldsmith: Do yo 1 know how internal memoranda prepared 24 by Janes Angleton when he 'vas head of the CI Staff_ how internal 25 HM 48331 DocId:92277210 Page 40 TaP #fcreT ================================================== Page 41 ================================================== iup @egre | 39 paperwork relating to the 'JFK assassination was prepared ana 2 subsequently stored? Mr . Tovar . No , I rea.Lly don 't. I have no idea I have seen no docuents on that :ubject- I have seen nothing either 5 originated or approvea or {igned by him You realize that any files on this subject are 'lead files _ I am just doing my current job. Until you pOieple became interested , we were not dealing with them on a' dai_-Y basis _ Mr Goldsmith _ What happens to the personal files of an individual such as Angletous or even yourself after leaving the CI STaff? 12 Mx Tovar. After lea ring the staff or leaving the Agency? i3 Mr _ Goldsmith Let u:; take the first after leaving the CI Staff,-what-would-happen--tiyour personal papers? IS Mr _ Tovar _ The personal file, official file on the person 16 in the' Agency is retained the Office of Personnel 17 Mxr Goldsmith _ That vould givern your personal_ file, I3 your personal. papers_ {ha: about internal memos , soft copy 19 type files what woula happen to them? 20 Mr . Tovar _ Having beizn only one element of the organiza- tion during my career , it is hard to say . 22 Mr. Goldsmith I am lot talking now about personnel file ~3 I am talking about soft cojY, working files that an individual 24 may maintain_ 29 Mr _ Tovar. You mean the files he himself as an individual B 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 41 Ta? #efDeT by ================================================== Page 42 ================================================== IUP R)euIE / 40 maintained? Mr Goldsmith_ Yes . Mr - Tovar Most individuals don t maintain: personal filesi I don ` t think. I would say , for example, anything I write, 5 I dictate a menorandum and I send it to anybody you want to name _ in a sense that is m [ work , I have done it but I don't keep a personal file on that. That goes into my office file. It is part of the office cronological file which is maintained byi my secretary . Let 48 say multiply that by:'500 , 000 over, a i0 period of years the foles 'Jrow _ At the time I leave I a 1 incidental in a sense. I just happen to be the person in the {2 job at the time The file: will still be there . i3 There is a normal retirement and destruction under normal conditions , retirement and destruction program which elininates 1: the accumulation of excess.ive useless material. 16 Mr _ Goldsmith _ Most paperwork would go in this office 17 chrono file? 13 Mr Tovar _ Yes , anything of significance would go in the 19 office chrono file. Anyth:.ng I write to the Directorate of 20 Operations , DDO , CI, it is normally part of the chrono files. If I want it, it is there . It is my Own file in the sense that 22 when I am on the job I havee total access to it. If I left 13 the job and wanted to look at it' six months later , it is still 24 in the fole and I would as}: somebody who took my place could I 25 see ' what I wrote _ I woula not take it with me HY 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 42 Top #FCRFT ================================================== Page 43 ================================================== Iur #egrl / 41 Mr . Goldsmith _ If it i8 an office chrono file does that meant that everything is filed in a chronological order? Mr _ Tovar Not neces 3arily. Here you ought to consult my secretary . There might be a subject breakdown _ Ordinarily 5 hte front office, we don t main-ain a lot of files. There is no point' in it. Let us sa, something I signed off on , here 18 a case in point, memos that are signed (son my behalf or that I might have signed , if I were there that day, I woula not maintain that in my frnnt office as a rule. That would probably be maintained by zhe office of origination. I think if I signed it my secretar{ would certainly maintain a log of {2 things that had gone through me for signature But I don 't i3 think I could be wrong on this , I don t think as a rule she would maintain a routine memorandum just because I happened to 1S sign it because I sign 80 :any things onuthat staff. I sign 5 off on a host of things wh ich are not really my creation. I 17 a representing the staff 1S a whole_ 13 Mr _ Goldsmith _ D Yo 1 know when Mr _ Angleton left the CI 9 Staff? 30 Mr _ Tovar Yes . I a.n not certain of the precise date 21 I think it was either Dece nber '74 or January 75 . That is the' position of Chief, Counter intelligence? 3 Mr Goldsmith _ Yes , 24 Mr Tovar_ I believe he may have retmained in the office for several months after tjat before he finally retired. MH 48331' DocId: 32277210 Page 43 Top WFcreT ================================================== Page 44 ================================================== JVF VegL/ 42 Mr _ Goldsnith _ Do Yo 1 know whether , after Mr _ Angleton left the CI Staff any type of followup was done by that staff On the Nosenko issue? Mr _ Tovar Followup 'vork? 5 Mr Goldsmith _ Yes , For example, one of the issues _ the Issue with regard to M:. Nosenko was his bona fides _ Mr _ Tovar _ Yes , indeed . Mr Goldmsith _ After MI _ Angleton left was any a dditionall analytical work done on th at issue? 0 Mr Tovar. A very de ailed study was done by my predecessbr George Kalaris. A very thorough analysis was made of: the whole; 12 Nosenko question . i3 Mx - Goldsmith _ Are you referring to the Hart Report? i4 Mr _ Tovar. Yes _ 13 Mr - Goldsmith _ Other than the Hart report was any type 0 15 followup work or analytica: work done after Mr .' Angleton S 7 departure? I3 Tovar . I don t XILOw. for certain_ The Hart Report is 19 a thick piece of paper _ In) the preparation of that report Z0 there were probably all kinds of drafts, scratchings ana sort of preliminary jobs _ All ihat I know would be in the context 22 of;that report. All I knov would be same representations in 23 response to the Director' s inguiry or your inguiry or someone 24 else's inguiry as to what happened , what dia it say , what does 29 it mean , that type of thin, but really correlary efforts _ H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 44 Tap PfcPfT key Mr - ================================================== Page 45 ================================================== IVt #egke / 43 Mr _ Goldsmith: Think for a moment on the Nosenko issue As Chief 0f the CI Staff,_ if it were demonstrated to very clearly that the story given :by Mr:Nosenko on Lee Harvey Oswald was full of contradictions and in addition to contra- dictions , it was in many Nays simply incredible , what impact would that have on the Agency S assessnent of Mr Nosenko as being a bona fide rather tian a dispatched defector? Mr _ Tovar _ Well, it 1s difficult to answer You are posing a question in a nar:ow sense _ You are focus_ on one 1C point, Nosenko vis-a-vis O:swald and contradlctions that may emerge there _ I would ansier by saying that again I am not an expert on Nosenko _ I don 3 profees to have a full grasp of i3 his bona fides or anything related to it. 1: I woula say that ques zion alone woula not be enough to S satisfy me that the inquirq had been made carefully. There is i6 much more to it than what Nosenko had to say about Oswald. 17 There are more aspects abo1t the bona fides issue_ more than I i3 could give you today. 19 Mr Goldsmith _ I have read the Hart Report _ 20 Mr _ Tovar _ He tried Z0 deal with the whole consideration 21 the whole Oswald , the hand Ling , the methodology . He dia not 22 go into every jot and tittLe of the issue 33 Mr = Goldsmith In faft, the Hart Report dia not mention 24 the wora "Oswald" even one time _ Even S0 , the question I have 29 if it were demonstrated to you that Nosenko ' s story on the M; 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 45 Tor QeCDtt you ing ================================================== Page 46 ================================================== Ir #cgme | 44 Oswala issue is untrue ca1not be believed , would that have anyk impact on the' Agency' s assessment of him as a bona fied? Mr Tovar _ The first reaction would be I woula be deeply distressed and . concerned , L would want to know more about it_ 5 You have to exptrapolate f-m me to the Agency . Other people have views on this other t,an mygelf. If you carried this thing further ana convinced ever{thody , the point You made is valid, then you would have Mr Goldsmith. We ar? talking hypothetically now _ Let 10 us go beyond you_ If it w'ere demonstrated to the Director of 11 the Central intelligence Ajency that the story given by Nosenko 12 on Oswala I am not talking about any of the other information 13 he gave but on Oswald simply cannot be believed because , 4, part of it is incredibl:e, B , it is full. of contradictions Is what effect do you think tat would have on the Agency S 86 assessment of him as a bon.1 fide defector? Mr _ Tovar. I literalLy don t know . I a not sure what 3 the comparative weight of that point woula be when considered' against the backdrop of th ? full Nosenko question _ 20 Mr _ Goldsmith _ As Chief of the CI Staff, you woula 11 personally be troubled by 'zhat? 22 Mr _ Tovar _ Yes , I think I woula be troubled by it. I "3 would be troubled_ I woul'] be troubled that our current 24 assessment is wrong . That woula trouble me 25 Again , I would say , 1i)o , if this is a serious proposition BIH 48331 DocId : 32277210 Page 46 ToP #fReT ================================================== Page 47 ================================================== Ivr Wetre | 45 you are making , let us say you adduced a number of analysts who examined this thing thoroughly ana were in a position of making that kind of judgment_ I would say , "I want to have these analysts talk to my analysts because I am not in a posi- 5 tion to nake that kina of judgment _ Mr Goldsmith _ First of all, I am not making the statement that Nosenko ' s story on Osald is inaccurate in any way _ Secondly , even if the' story is inaccurate , I don ' t want to suggest that because of that anyone on this Committee has 10 any feeling that that means Nosenko is not bona fide My guestion is really very limited. A, if it were demonstrated 12 that the story on Oswald is inaccurate; what impact would that 13 have on your overall assessment? " Mr _ Tovar _ You mean Jemonstrably inaccurate? IS Mr . Goldsmith _ Yes . 16 Mr _ Tovar It woula have to be examined _ It would have 17 to be exanined the full panoply of the whole Oswala issue_ 13 I-woula say wejwill get this team of analysts ana we will 19 fight it out. We are talking about hypothesis 20 Mr _ Goldsmith _ Yes _ I would prefer to stay away from the 21 term I6 fighting it out" because there is no one here who is in 22 the posture of making a fighting issue out 0f it. 113 I no longer have any questions . I. will have questions to 24 ask whoever on your staff participatea in the preparation of 25 the memo that we discused earlier_ H 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 47 Tad #coDct ================================================== Page 48 ================================================== Iur Wegre | 46 Normally whenever a witness has an opportunity to testify before the Comittee at a Jearing, the Committee gives him five minutes at the end to make a statement _ This is not a hearing. However , if you woula like to make a statement for the record , 5 feel free to do S0 _ If no : , you will be given a chance to 5 verify the record for accuracy. Mr _ Tovar _ Since I have no position to present and no point to make it is probably improper to make a statement . The only think I woula' re.iterate is that I have been sort of speculating here in many rilspects _ Bear in mind there is an area here where I have a pirview that is perhaps: valid_ We 12 are talking about a lot 0f things which are way beyond my i3 immediate experience and Certainly my current responsibility. 14 I would say , take sOm(? of my speculation with a grain of VS salt, because I don t mean to be dogmatic on these things . 16 The procedure for handling the 201 file, there are some GS-7 17 girls down the line who coula tell you much more about the 201 Ia3 files than I woula ever be able to compile for you. They are 19 the ones you really should talk to 20 Things like the ISR, know the ISR in a limited framework from the standpoint of a guy overseas who is dealing frequently 22 with the military and regitters military sources in the ISR "3 and checks 'the ISR either on behalf of the military or to see 24 1f they have already registered prior interest; and so on There may be other aspects of the thing that you should ge more MH 48331 DocId: 92277210 Page 48 Top #Fcret ================================================== Page 49 ================================================== iut @icume/ 47 professional advice on 2 I think your question: have been reasonable _ I have founal 3 no objection to to mee;: you more than halfway on it_ Mr .` Goldsmith: Fine. Thank you very much _ ' (Whereupon , at 3 :20 p ,m. , the deposition was concluded.) 6 10 12 13 i4 i; 13 17 Ia 19 20 21 2" 1 29 HH 48331 DocId:32277210 Page 49 Top SfcReT try ================================================== Page 50 ================================================== 0 @T W)cune/ 48 CERTIFICAT: OF NOTARY PUBLIC 7 I, Alfrea Joseph LaFraance , the officer before whon the foregoing . deposition was taken , do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was sworn by me; that the testimony 0f said witness was taken by me in stenotype t() the best of my ability and there- after reduced to typewriting under my direction , that saia deposition is a true recoril of the testimony given by saia witness ; that I am neither counsel for , related to, nor employed 10 by any of the parties to tie action in which this 'deposition was taken ; and further that: I a not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto i3 nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcone of the action. Is Notary Public in and for the X6 District of Colubia 17 Commission expires Noveriber 14 , 1980 . 13 19 30 31 3 1 MT 48331 DocId: 32277210 Page 50 Top SfCrFT duly My

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