Transcript of 180-10131-10324.pdf

================================================== Page 1 ================================================== 180-10131-10324 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 JFK Assassination System Date: 10TT9/20 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY : HSCA RECORD NUMER 180-10131-10324 RECORD SERIES SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY AGENCY FILE NUMER : 014724 Document Information ORIGNNATOR : HSCA FROM: NOSENKO, YURI TO TITLE : TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO DATE : 06/20/1978 PAGES : 141 SUBJECTS CIA, METHODOLOGY KGB, FILES KGB, METHODOLOGY MCMILLAN, PRISCILLA JOHNSON SOLIE, BRUCE NOSENKO, YURI, TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD, DEFECTION TO RUSSIA MEXICO CITY DOCUMENT TYPE TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION Secret RESTRICTIONS Consulted CURRENT STATUS Withhold DATE OF LASTREVEW 08/21/1993 OPENING CRITERIA COMMNTS Folder 2 of 2. Box 4 v9 HY 50955 DocId:32277209 1 Top Page ================================================== Page 2 ================================================== !Ur #LKET C @ N I E N I & TESTIMONY OF : PAGE YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO Resumed 2 6 10 EX H I B I I 8 Marked Received JFK F-2 10 12 JFK F-3 11 13 JFK F=4 18 14 JFK F-5 24 15 JFK F-6 32 16 JFK F-7 49 17 Ia 9 20 21 22 24 TOp BEGRET HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 2 ================================================== Page 3 ================================================== THOMAS;srs Tup SECRET retype smnp EXECUTIVE SESSION Tuesday, : June 20 ; 197878 4 5 U.S_ House of Representatives 0 Select Committee on Assassinations Subcommittee on the Assassination 0f John A_ Kennedy Washington, D. C . The Committee met, pursuant to recess , at 6 : 20 0 'clock 0 p. m . , in Room: l-D, Headquarters , Central Intelligence 'Agency , Langley , Virginia 0 the Honorable Louis Stokes (Chairman of 12 the Committee) presiding _ 04 Present: Representatives Stokes , Preyer, Burke , Fithian, Devine and Sawyer Also present: G . R_ Blakey , G Cornwell 1 M Goldsmith 0 R Morrison , E_ Berning, M Jackson, J Smith , K: Klein and 18 S Brady . 20 The Chairman The Committee will come to order. 2 At this time the Committee will resume its sitting_ We lare. still in executive 'session by virtue of the resolution dopted the Committee this past evening . At this time the Chair will recognize Mr Blakey _ Mr Blakey. Off the record. TOP SESRET F 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 3 by ================================================== Page 4 ================================================== TQp SECRET 2 (Discussion off the record 9 The Chairman Anything further? Bring the witness in. Let the record' reflect that the Committee has resumed its 5 sitting and at this time the witness , Yuri Nosenko , is back before the Committee once again _ Mr . Nosenko , I admonish you that you are still under the oath that you took last night TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO Resumed 10 Mr _ Nosenko . Yes , sir_ The Chairman And at this time 0 then; the Committee wil] 12 recognize the counsel for the Committee 1 Mr Klein: 13 Mr _ Klein Thank you, Mr _ Chairman _ 14 Good evening 15 Mr Nosenko - Good evening , sir. 16 Mr Klein. You told us that after the assassination 17 you had an opportunity to be present when Oswald' s file was 13 brought from Minsk, is that right? 19 Mr Nosenko Absolutely right _ 20. Mr . Klein. Did you have an opportunity to read the entife 21 file at that time? 21 Mr _ Nosenko No , sir. Mr Klein- HOw much of the file did you read? 24 Mr Nosenko It was simply looking, page ` bY page , first 29 part of the first volume TOP SECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 4 ================================================== Page 5 ================================================== TOP SECRET 3 Mr _ Klein. You went through the first part of the first 2 volume _ page by page? 3 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir. 4 Mr Klein. Did you go through any of the other volumes? 5 Mr Nosenko . No , sir. Mr Klein_ You told us that an officer named Matveev took the file away to prepare a summary? Mr _ Nosenko Right. Mr Klein_ Do you know who wrote that summary? Mr Nosenko The summary was written by the First Department of the Second Chief Directorate 12 Mr Klein. Do you know who , in particular? 13 Mr Nosenko No sir, I do not know. Mr Klein_ And did you ever have an opportunity to read 15 the S ummary that the First Department prepared? 16 Mr . Nosenko _ No , sir; I didn t see it. 17 Mr _ Klein_ The Russian word # spravka" does that mean 13 Mr _ Nosenko Is summary , right_ 19 Mr Klein. And were you not able to read the S umary 29 that they wrote? Mr Nosenko . Well the file was taken in the First 22 Department. I was working in the Seventh Department _ ~3 Mr Klein. Did you make any attempt to read it? Mr Nosenko . No Mr . Klein_ Was it at all unusual that with all your IQF SEGRET H 50955 DocId:32277209 Page, 5 why ================================================== Page 6 ================================================== ToP SECRET involvement in the case ,you did not have an opportunity to read that file? Mr Nosenko It was the decision of the Chief of the Second Chief Directorate, given big importance to this questicn that: a resue will be prepared by the most prestigious depart ment , American Department , and that is we couldn t even ask_ 6 Mr Klein- You didn t even ask to see it? Mr _ Nosenko . No . 3 Mr: Klein_ So it was not unusual that you were not allowed to see it? 10 Mr Nosenko. No , it was not unusual Mr Klein_ You have testified before this Committee tha# 12 13 the KGB did not allow Lee Harvey Oswald to defect because he wa s uninteresting. You have testified the KGB did not even speak 15 to Lee Harvey Oswald because he was uninteresting; and that yoy 16 decided he was not interesting without speaking to him. 17 Do you knOw what year Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet 13 Union? 19 Mr Nosenko - 1959 20 Mr Klein. In 1959 , approximately how many Americans 21 Wwanted to defect to the Soviet Union or requested permission 22 defect? Mr Nosenko _ There was a defectionist, I remember, one 24 lof the employees one of the workers , who was helping to or- 25 iganize the American Exhibition in Moscow Mr Webster IOP SECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 6 why ================================================== Page 7 ================================================== TOP SECRET 5 Mr Klein. Without giving particular names , how many Americans would you say asked permission to de fect in 1959? 3 What would the number be? Mr Nosenko_ These two were known to me Oswald and Webster Mr Klein. From 1955 to 1960 , what would be your best estimate as to how many Americans asked permission to defect to the Soviet Union? Mr _ Nosenko _ As far as I heard there I think was one 10 only- Mr Klein One other, meaning three altogether_ 12 Mr Nosenko . One besides Oswald and Webster; what; I 113 know 14 Mr Klein Three? 15 Mr Nosenko _ T hree: 16 Mr Klein_ Of the three 8 was Oswald the only one turned 17 down because he was uninteresting?- 13 Mr Nosenko Right 19 Mr Klein_ Do you know any other defector who was ever turned down because he was uninteresting? Mr Nosenko . No:. Allow me to tell as you have seen , and you told yourselves , how many Americans are defected . It is a very rare occasion -ahd 24 KGB prefers defection when they are planning, they want , these 25 types of defectors 1 they like and invite those people who can TuF SeCRET 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 7 ================================================== Page 8 ================================================== ToF SECRET give them certain information which is valuable Mr _ Klein- Do you recall telling this Committee yesterday that up until 1960 the Seventh Department was recruiting left and right? 5 ' Nosenko. Absolutely right _ Mr Klein. And that you recruited a woman in Utah who was Mr_ Nosenko. I simply had given example of this recruit ment which took place up to: 1960 _ When Seventh Department was recruitng and giving files to the Intelligence Service First Chief Directorate, not asking them before , is it person will be for : them valuable or not. 12 Mr Klein. And that KGB officers were getting: bonus 13 and promotions when they induced people to recruit? Mr Nosenko Right_ i5 Mr Klein. And despite that, Lee Harvey Oswald, when he asked to defect, you turned_ him down without even speaking to 17 him, to find out if he had any information; is that right? Mr Nosenko Sir, we had quite a few recruitments in 59 a very big amount of them in 59 very interesting, much , much: more. interesting professors and teachers T and even was a copop: from CIA we had quite a few recruitments and ' Oswald was nothing on: this , base , on this foundation. Mr Klein Would the KGB have: any interest in an American student? Mr Nosenko As I told you yesterday, KGB interested in TOPSECRET Tl 60955 DocId:32277209 Page 8. Mr ================================================== Page 9 ================================================== OP SEBAET students, but perticutarly 'those students who are studying the Russian language 9 Russian 'history Russian economy _ Mr Klein_ And would they have any interest in an American who had strong anti-American views and who was a professed Marxist? Would they have any interest in that kind of person? Mr Nosenko . Here were are coming to a very interesting and sensitive question. From mid-1950 , by the order 0f Central Committee Communist Party, Soviet Union , KGB was prohibited to make any approachment and recruitment of j0 members of the Communist Party of the West_ Mr Klein. I am not asking about a member 0f the 12 13 Communist Party_ 14 Mr Nosenko . Your question is, and if he_ is some type of Marxist here , the Iquestion maybe he is possibly a member 8S 16 of CommunisE tParty, and to check it for KGB very difficult 17 if he is a member of Communist Party or not of his country_ 13 Mr Klein. Would they ask him if he is a member of the Communist Party? 20 Would they check it? 21 Mr Nosenko _ No they would not ask him. 22 Mr Klein- wouldn t ask him? Mr _ Nosenko . No 1 Mr Klein. Would the Soviet Union be interested in someone who was in the military and worked with radar equipment? IOPiSECRET H 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 9 They ================================================== Page 10 ================================================== Top SECRET Mr . Nosenko . It depends If he was corporal 1 private is no big interest. If he was officer, maybe they would be 2 interested . Mr_ Klein. The fact that he worked with the equipment wouldn t be enough; they would want to know what his rank was Mr Nosenko _ No sir; it is not enough because they had sources Mr _ Klein And in 1959 would the Soviet Union have been interested in someone who served as a radar operator on an ai base where U-2s took off and landed? 10 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir; it would be very interested Mr Klein. It .is your testimony that Lee Harvey Oswald, 12 who was a student who was a professed Marxist, who had 13 Mr Nosenio. Students? I never heard that he was a 1 4 student_ 15 8 Mr Klein who had been a radar operator and had 17 worked on a base from which U=2 airplanes took off' and 13 landed , that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB to speak to him, to_ find out if he knew any of this informatipn? Mr. No:s eko.I: MrxeK]eimg IsunderstandaY oun:: position; but wer:Ididn't 'know: thato hee hadoianryi:connectionzwith Us2a 22 f lr ghtisn ,Jhat js one thing_ 33 And if Youy Mr Klein, are basing on what was written by 24 Mr Epstein in the:book, it is a little bit from the air taken ideas _ Mr Epstein even telling that how important IOp SECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 10 ================================================== Page 11 ================================================== IOp SEBRET for KGB to know about such base that' base We knew it in '50 ' s when I worked in GRU at the NavY , in 1950 ,, 51, 52 We knew every base and in Japan , at this Atsugi Base, and we knew what kind of airplanes had been We didn t know about_ U-2 , no . Sure, it is very interesting , but when Oswald applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union we didn t know a word about his knowledge , anything concerning U-2 flights _ Mr Klein. And you didn t ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct? I0 Mr _ Nosenko . No Mr Klein. And you told us that one reason that no one 12 was working on Oswald was because all of your people were 13 concentrating on the American Exhibition in 195,9 0 is that 4 correct? 1S Mr Nosenko Yes , sir Not only American Exhibition 8 16 there were other tourists and among them were interesting 13 targets , ve ry interesting targets _ Mr Klein_ You told us yesterday that things didn t Mr Nosenko I can explain you because an American 20 Exhibition in Moscow was by the information which KGB had , 22 I don t know how much it's right, how much it' s wrong , but it 33 was suspected quite a number of people from American intelli- 24 gence community who were working on American Exhibition in Moscow , and when the work' is going on against such targets , TOP SECRET 50955 DocId;32277209 Page 11 why; ================================================== Page 12 ================================================== 10 iop SECRET it is not one officer; it is a big amount of people involved on each case, because it is very serious target _ Mx Klein. Do you know what date Lee Harvey Oswald 3 came to the Soviet Union? Mr Nosenko:? No , sir, I do not. Mr Klein_ Mr . Chairman, I would ask that this document be marked for identification and shown to the witnes: The Chairman Without objection_ (The document referred to was marked as JFK Exhibit No : F-2 10 for identification Mr Klein. Looking at this document 12 13 Mr Nosenko _ Right. 14 The Chairman. Did counsel want to identify for the 5 record how the document has been . marked? 16 The Clerk_ JFK-F-2 _ 17 Mr Klein. Looking at this document , does it say on thel 13 top "Visa and Registration Office , Interior Department, {9 Executive Committee of the Moscow City Council"? 20 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir Mr Klein. Do you recognize that type of document? Mr Nosenko . Yes It is from Department of giving Visas 7 and Registrations which is Working under auspices of Directorate of Internal Affairs of Moswcow. City.? Mr Klein. And does this appear to be an authentic TOP SECRET T 60955 DocId:32277209 Page 12 ================================================== Page 13 ================================================== TOF SEGRET- 11 document , an authentic copy of the document? Mr Nosenko . Sure 2 Mr Klein. Looking at Number does it say what date Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet Union for the first= 5 time? Mr Nosenko October , 1959 _ Mr Klein. October what? Mr Nosenko . October 16 , 1959 Mr Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for identification , Mr . Chairman The Chairman Without objection . Would the clerk indicate for the record? The Clerk JFK-F-3 , Mr Chairman 1 The document referred to was 15 marked as JFK Exhibit No . F-3 16 for identification.) 17 Mr . Klein. Looking at the newspaper article clipping, J3 the right hand side, with the heading "U.S_ Fair in Soviet 9 Jammed at Close , # do you see that? 20 Mr Nosenko _ Yes , sir. 21 Mr Klein And what is the date of that story? 22 Mr _ Nosenko . The date is September 4 Mr Klein: Are you aware of the fact that the Ame rican 24 Exhibition ended on September 4 , more than a month before 25 Oswald came to the Soviet Union? Top #EBReT HA 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 13 8 , ================================================== Page 14 ================================================== 12 TOP SECRET Mr Nosenko _ Mr _ Klein, I would iike you to ask when Americans who were working for this Exhibition left Moscow Mr Klein. I will ask you another question _ 3 Yesterday , when I asked; you if things got back to normal once the fair 'ended, did you say yes? 5 Mr Nosenko No till they were leave the Soviet Union. No They are the same targets Okay, you are right it. is closed September 4th, but does it change the importanc of these people against whom KGB was working? They were still in Moscow _ 10 Mr . Klein Do you recall yesterday my asking you , did things in your department get back to normalc? once the fair 12 13 ended , and do you recall saying Yes? 14 'Mx Nosenko _ Well, I meaning fair ended when left all 1,5 the . people involved in work on American Exhibition, Americans 16 when they left, and they were staying te a long time 17 after it was closed It was closed for visits for Soviet citizens, but it took quite a time for them to leave ;9 Mr . Klein. You also testified yesterday that Lee Harvey 20 Oswald was allowed to stay in the Soviet Union after he said 21 that he was going to kill himself if they sent him home 22 You told us that he slashed his wrists and two psychiatrists 13 examined him and both found hin mentally unstable: 24 Mr Nosenko Right Mr Klein. What was the point of having the two Tur SECRET H 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 14 qui- ================================================== Page 15 ================================================== Top SEGRET 13 psychiatrists examine him? Mr Nosenko _ I think' simply to be assured that it was right found decision, concerning this person Two independent Mr Klein_ After examined him , the decision was made to let him stay; is that correct? Mr Nosenko . It is not because of the examination he was allowed to stay, Mr Klein. You are a little bit mixing things _ He was allowed to stay because KGB and Soviet Govern- ment had come to the conclusion if this person will kill himself it will bereaction in newspapers which can in any waj 10 hurt the starting, the warming' of Soviet-American relations. Mr Klein The Soviets were worried he would kill himse 12 13 in the Soviet Union? Mr Nosenko . Right , if they would not allow him to IS stay- 86 Mr . Klein. Could the KGB have taken him and put him on 17 the next plane out of Russia and thereby ended their whole 1a problem With Lee Harvey Oswald? 19 Mr Nosenko: It is a; very sensitive question. He can 20 jump out 'of car If he decided, if he is mentally unstable , 21 you don t;know what he; will do . Mr. Klein_ Do you ` think the KGB didn t do that because they were worried he might; jump out of the car or do something like that? Mr: Nosenko Simply a mentally unstable person = they IOP SECRET Fm 5i955 DocId:32277209 Page 15 they ================================================== Page 16 ================================================== Top SECRET 14 didn t want to go it on any such action Mr Klein. They would rather keep him in the Soviet Union? Mr . Nosenko . No ; they would rather prefer they washed their hands , Mr . Klein; they are not making decision, KGB 5 Soviet Union decisions are made by the Central Committee of the Communist Partyi " and General Secretary and Politburo , not by KGB KGB a servant of the Politburo and Central Comi tee Communist Party. Mr. Klein Going by the facts as You have told them 10 to this Committee 11 Mr = Nosenko _ Yes , sir_ Mr Klein_ wasn' t he put on a plane and sent i3 14 back to America? Mr Nosenko . KGB washea their hands' Then from Intouridt 15 86 it was given information Ministry of Foreign Trade ; Ministry 17 of Foreign Trade reported to the Soviet Government As I said, 13 I assumed the Chairman was surely asked; he told his opinion 19 of the KGB , and up to the Soviet Government how they would 20 decide 2 Mr Klein Could he have been brought to the 'U:S Embassy and told them 'he is an American, 0 You take care of 3 him; we don t want him"? Mr Nosenko _ Tt can be done , sure It can be done but it wasn't done _ ToF #ECRET 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 16 L/1 In why ================================================== Page 17 ================================================== ToP SEBRET 15 Mr . Klein. Instead jelected to allow him to stay indefinitely in the Soviet Union and they have to worry about him every single what an unstable American would do , is that correct? Mr Nosenko . They didn t allow KGB didn t allow Soviet government allowed_ Mr Klein. The facts as you have testified to them are that the KGB allowed this mentally unstable person to stay in Russia, and they sent him to Minsk to live and work in a 10 radio factory. Then the KGB allowed this mentally unstable 01 individual to marry a Soviet woman, and then this mentally 12 unstable individual was allowed to join a hunting club where 13 he had access to a gun _ Can You think of any other cases in all the time You 8S worked in the KGB where a mentally unstable person was 16 treated in thiskina of manner? Mr Nosenko I told you I do not know any other cases 13 of mentally unstable , excluding one code clerk American, was 19 also mentally ill; he was delivered in Soviet Union I heard 29 it_ I never have worked with him, I never have seen him_ 21" And the thing is, I am sorry, but You are putting and stressing 22 a number of questioning, and it sounds So peculiar What doe= 13 it mean , KGB allow him to marry? 24 Mr Klein, in the Soviet Union there is by degree of 2: Presidium of Supreme Soviet U.S.S.R. a law &llowing marriage Gf TOp SECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 17 UCa 4v" ~they day , ================================================== Page 18 ================================================== DF ZECRET 16 Soviet citizens with foreign. A foreigner can marry a Soviet citizen, by the law There is not a thing that KGB can in any way try not to give, not to make it possible , but this is in cases when the person who is marrying a foreigner worked in some sensitive place , let S say , in missiles rocket industry production, was in process of any place of his work seeing classified material In these cases , KGB will try to' put different type of fences . But it is unlawful. In accordance with Soviet law , marriage is allowed; he doesn t need to ask permission of Soviet Government or anyone. And his 10 wife , Marina, wasn t working in any place which was sensitive from the point of view of Soviet security. 12 13 Mentally unstable it doesn t mean that he is raving 4 mad; it is mentally unstable I5 Mr Klein_ You testified that not only was Oswala not 16 spoken to when he first said he wanted to defect but even after 7 the decision was made to allow him to remain in the Soviet 13 Union, still nobody from the KGB spoke to him, is that correct? 19 Mr . Nosenko . Yes, sira 20 Mr Klein. You also tetified to the extensive resources that were devoted to put physical and technical surveillance 22 on Oswald_ You told us the men involved , the time involved, 23 the facilities involved? Mr Nosenko . Right_ Mr Klein_ Do you find great contradiction TDESECRE 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 18 ing ================================================== Page 19 ================================================== 17 Top SECRET Mr Nosenko. No ,_ sir Mr Klein. in the fact that, on the one hand , you put all these resources into following Oswald around; trying see who he talked to and what he does and , on the other hand you don t even have a. person go and talk to him and ask him, 0 Mb Tell us your background; tell us about yourself Is there any contradiction? Mr _ Nosenko Even in the United States yes , sure, for you, for me just now American citizens , yes , sure, but there, 10 no 11 Mr_ Klein. They don t talk to people there? 12 Mr Nosenko . They can talk and carnot to talk;; but I 13 don t see contradiction there Anyone 8 any foreigner who wili 14 be staying , even if this defector not on his own , but , let' s 13 say, KGB pushed him to stay_ to defect , he still will be watched 16 and on Him will be this same type of work that was 7 put on Oswald . not less h3 Mr Klein You talkabout their society is different than 19 ours_ Is it unusual that they allow an American to defect 20 and live there without ever questioning him , to ask him if he is" an inte lligence -agent? Mr _ Nosenko:: On the contrary no doubt , let' s "say hea ~33 was intelligence agent , what he willltell them that he was 24 sent with mission as intelligence agent? Why to scare him? Let him live how he wants We will be watching him_ He TuP SECREE 4I 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 19 put ================================================== Page 20 ================================================== Tup BEBrET 18 will show his behavior by his action Mr Klein. They purposely don t speak to him; is that your testimony? Mr Nosenko . In this case they didn t speak with him because he didn t present interest for the KGB and because he was mentally unstable Mr Klein_ You, testified that you read the reports of two psychiatrists who examined Lee Harvey Oswald at the 9' hospital after he cut his wrist, is that correct? 10 Mr Nosenko Right _ Mr Klein: You said both found him mentally unstable? 12 Mr Nosenko. Yes , sir 13 Mr Klein_ You told uS in geat detail how this 14 decision was made to have these pSychiatrists 'examine him_ 15 I would ask thatithis document be marked for 16 identification The Chairman . The clerk will identify for the record 13 the number appearing on the document. 19 The Clerk_ It will be JFK-F-4 . 20 The document referred to was 2] marked as JFK Exhibit No _ F-4 22 for identification_ 73 Mr Klein. Have you ever seen that document before? Mr _ Nosenko . No 8 sir: I haven t seen it. Mr Klein_ Were 'you aware that the Soviet_ Government Tup SEBRET Dw 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 20 by ================================================== Page 21 ================================================== 19 Top SECRET provided certain documents to the Warren Commission in 1964? 2 Mr Nosenko . No , sir. I wasn't aware of this. 3 Mr Klein_ Looking at that document in front 0f you Mr Nosenko. Right. ' Mr Klein_ is: that a hospital record? 6 Mr Nosenko Oh yes sure It is a hospital record_ Mr Klein And whose hospital record? Does it have a name on it? Mr Nosenko . Yes, sir. It is from Botkin Hospital 10 Mr _ Klein. Whose name is it? Mr Nosenko . Lee Harvey Oswald 12 Mr Klein. Does it say what date he was admitted? 13 Mr Nosenko . Discharged, admitted 23rd, discharged 14 28th 15 Mr Klein. What Year is that? i8 Mr Nosenko October of 1959 Mr Klein And does it have on the bottom the diagnosis 13 he was in the hospital? 19 Mr Nosenko Incised wound of one-third of the left 20 forearm. 2 Mr Klein And that date, October of 1959 , is that when 22 Oswald first came to the Soviet Union and cut his wrist? 23 Mr Nosenko . I cannot tell you dates , sir. I do not 74 remember Mr Klein. You have in front of you the other document TOP SECRET #H 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 21 why ================================================== Page 22 ================================================== TOP SECRET 20 which told Number 8 L I what date he came to the Soviet Union Is that still there? 2 Mr Nosenko . No , sir. This is admittance to the hos _ pital and dischargement Mr Klein_ Number 8? 5 Mr Nosenko _ Arrival October 16 5 Mr Klein. And the date on the hospital admittance is what date? Mr . Nosenko Twenty-third of October _ Mr Klein. And would you turn to the hospital adittanc form, the one I just gave you, to the third page , please? Mr Nosenko . Yes . 12 Mr Klein And do you see where it says 12 History of Present Illness"? Mr Nosenko . No , I don t see 15 Mr Klein. On the third page? 16 Mr Nosenko I have the third page 17 Mr Klein It has Number 6 on the top of the page ;, but 13 19 it' s the third page on the document. 20 Mr Nosenko. Oh , Number 6 , History of Present Illness 21 Yes Just a second_ Mr Klein. Would you glance through that and would you 3 tell us if this is the hospital report from when Lee Harvey Oswald cut his wrist and was taken to Botykin Hospital? Mr Nosenko _ Yes , sir. TuP SEBRE 50955: Docl4.32277209 Page 22 ================================================== Page 23 ================================================== 21 ToP SECRET Mr Klein_ Now would You turn to the next to the last page . It has a 13 on. the right hand side Do you see that page? Mr Nosenko 'Ye;s;} sir Mr Klein. The next to'. the last page 5 Mr Nosenko Yes, sir_ Mr Klein. And do you see where it says , two-thirds of the way to the bottom, "Psychiatric Department" underlinedd Mr Nosenko = Yes, Sir Mr Klein_ Would you read what is said under that? Mr Nosenko . "His mind is clear; perception is correct; no hallucination or deliriums He answers the questions 12 13 legible and logically; he has. a firm desire to remain in the Soviet Union; no psychiatric symptoms were noted; the patient 15 is not dangerous for other people; his condition permits him 66 to stay in Psychatric Department an order of the Assistant to the Chief PHysicians Dr Kornika The patient is trans ferred to the Seventh Ward _ 18 Mr Klein Is there anything: in there to indicate he is me ntally unstable? Mr Nosenko _ Here I do not see Mr Klein Does that report_ indicate that he was normal ? Mr Nosenko Here I do not see what I have seen But Iichis receive from the Soviet Government and if you think 25 you received the true' things what was in file, you are wrong TuP #ECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 23 15+0 03 tr by you ================================================== Page 24 ================================================== Top SEBRET 22 Mr Klein. Mr Klein_ And that document, according:to you , is that 2 not an authentic -copy2 Mr Nosenko KGB can Prepare you any document . Take the material or ask the doctors who are cooperating with KGB and they will prepare you any document Mr Klein. I ~am not asking you what they can do . Are you testifying that this document is not authentic , it is not the 'document? 10 Mr Nosenko _ This document never was in the file 0f the 11 KGB 12 Mr Klein So i3 Mr Nosenko This I testify_ 14 Mr Klein. pr it is your tetimony that the KGB sent us 15 a phony document? 16 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir. Mr Klein You testified before this Committee that there was periodic)physical surveillance of Lee Harvey Oswald which was ordered by Moscow , to be carried out in Minsk? 20 Mr Nosenko Right Mr Klein. And you testified in detail about that, 22 and you told us how the physical surveillance consisted 0f following Oswald for a month or month and a,half at a time and there were a number of people that would be involved,_ is that correct? TOP SECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 24 5T4 #'ete r"TII tt ton 7r7" #7nbo J; nnyIotnT? ================================================== Page 25 ================================================== Top SEGRET 23 Mr Nosenko Right. Mr Klein. It was a big operation? 2 3 Mr Nosenko _ Big operation? No , it's not a big operation= Mr Klein. There were a number of people involved, werer t there? Mr _ Nosenko It is not a big operation. It is routine In KGB it is a routine, nothing serious It's not an operation even. It' s surveillance, it' s not an operation. j0 Mr Klein And have you ever stated that the only cover age of Oswald during his stay in Minsk consisted of periodic 12 checks at his place of employment , inquiry of neighbors and 13 associates and review of his mail? Have you ever stated that was the only coverage of Oswald in Minsk? 13 Mr Nosenko . I stated before , and I stated it to you 16 yesterday , and I state now , that the order was given, and I have seen it tn 44a to cover him by surveillance periodical , to 13 cover him by an agent watching in places of his living, places 9 he is working, control over his correspondence and control of 20 his telephone conversations_ 21 Mr Klein. My question is, have you ever stated that the 22 only coverage was checking at his places of employment and 13 his ne ighbors and associates 8 and not say anything about 4 periodic, physical surveillance? 29 Mr Nosenko . Sir, I cannot tell what I stated_ I wds TuP SECRET. 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 25 you ================================================== Page 26 ================================================== TOP SEBRET 24 for quite a big period of time quite a few Years_ 1 interrogated, by hours , and in different types of conditions , including hostile conditions Mr Klein That was by the CIA? Mr Nosenko Where they asked questions in S uch ' form which later my answer will be interpreted in any way , however want to interrogate uS Mr Klein_ That was by CIA? Mr Nosenko . And I cannot tell you what I did say. I 10 cannot remember dates_ You must understand, it' s hundreds of interrogations; hundreds Mr Klein_ This period that you are telling uS about, 1 you were questioned by the CIA during that period, is that correct? 15 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sure. Mr Klein. Were you guestioned- during that period .by FBI? Mr Nosenko . I questioned by: FBI in February, Yes _ 9 Mr Klein. At. this time I would ask that this document 20 be marked for identification and shown to the witness The Chairman_ The clerk will indicate: for the record the number appearing on " the document: 23 The Clerk. Exhibit JFK-F-5 (The document referred to was marked as JFK Exhibit No . F-5 for TOP SEGRET IR 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 26 they ================================================== Page 27 ================================================== TOP SECRET 25 identification ) Mx Klein- These hostile interrogations You just alluded to, did they lead you to state other than the truth to these interrogators? 5 Mr Nosenko I was answering .questions which were put: to me Mr Klein. Did you ever not tell the truth? Mr Nosenko . No , I was telling the truth Mr Klein I would direct your attention Mr . Nosenko . Yes sir Mr Klein. Just a moment_ Before you you have a {2 Federal Bureau of Investigation report , is that correct? 13 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir. i4 Mr Klein. Iwould direct your attention to page 29 of 15 that report_ 16 Mr Nosenko . Right 17 Mr. Klein. The last paragraph, beginning with, "Nosenko 3 stated" it' s underlined 'Would you please read that 19 paragraph to 20. Mr NOsenko _ "Nosenko stated that in view of instruction from the KGB Moscow no. active interest could be taken in Oswald in` Minsk without obtaining prior approval from KGB in Moscow According" to Nosenko , no such approval was ever 24 requested or granted_ and based on his experience 1 he opined 25 that the only coverage Oswald during this stay in Minsk TOP SEBRET 50955 DocI4:32277209 Page 27 us? of ================================================== Page 28 ================================================== 26 top SESRET consisted of periodic checks of his places of employment, inquiries of neighbors and associates 1 and review of his mail 2 Mr _ Klein. Did You make that statement? Mr Nosenko . Yes sir What do you find here wrong? Mr = Klein. Does that statement say anything about physical surveillance? Mr _ Nosenko No ,` it didn t. Mr . Klein_ Did you forget to tell them about the physical surveillance? 10 Mr Nosenko Maybe I forget; maybe they didn t put; I do not know 12 Mr Klein. Do you recall 'speaking to agents Poptanich 13 and Gheesling on March 3rd and 4th, 1964? Mr Nosenko . I cannot tell you. I do remember the date no I remember I was, speaking with_agents from FBI _ Mr Klein When you spoke to them did you recall that they spoke to you at that time March 3rd and 4th, about 13 Lee: Harvey: Oswald? Is Mr Nosenko . I told you, they were speaking with me 20 about Oswald, but I cannot tell you the date whem Mr Klein. Was it in March 1964? Mr Nosenko . They were speaking with me February 33 and' the beginning of March of 1964 . 24 Mr Klein:- And did they tape the conversations? Mr Nosenko . Yes they were taping all conversations. Top BECRET IW 50955 DocId;32277109 Page 28 ================================================== Page 29 ================================================== 27 Top BECRET Mr Klein Did.the agehtsmake notes when,Yo4 were talking? Mr Nosenko . Yes sirk Mr Klein Did they ever show you those notes? Mr Nosenko _ No Mr Klein. Were you aware that the statements you were making to them were going to be written down in to a report? Mr Nosenko Sure _ Mr Klein. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the 0 report?_ Mr : Nosenko_ No Thel only one which was sent to the 12 Warren Commission, this I have seen 13 Mr Klein Were you aware that the report would be put 14 in your file? T5 Mr Nosenko . Must be 16 Mr _ Klein. Were you aware that report would be_ shown to 17 a committee such as this investigating the assassination? 13 Mr Nosenko I didn t know that it would be created, the 49 Committee, because it was 1964 _ 20 Mr Klein bu didn' t know that? 21 Mr . Nosenko _ No Did you know that this Committee in 1964 n I will be existing in 78 , '77? Mr _ Klein_ And we re You telling them ithe truth when you told" them that the only coverage of Oswald and listing these things- ad TOP SESRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 29 ================================================== Page 30 ================================================== UP SECRET 28 not telling them about the physical surveillance , was that the truth ou told them? Mr Nosenko= Well, I told them that there was done the work against Oswald; it was ordered , passive type of work it' s called passive Whenever it's ordered not to make an approachment , not to make a contact, not to make a recruit- ment, this is passive Anything when enters besides whatever is 'done contact , approachments , recruitment, attempt to recruit, it is 10: immediately called active Mr Klein Looking at that report, did you tell them 12 about the. physical surveillance which you told this' Committee 13 about yesterday? Mr Nosenko Sir , I do not see here , but I have no 13 doubts _ I do not know Maybe I didn t mention that this 16 date you said, maybe I didn t mention but I was telling them abut surveillance 13 Mr Klein Didn t youl tell 4s that you always told the 19 truth and told everything you knew when you spoke to the FBI 20 and the CIA? Mr Nosenko Yes sir 22 Mr Klein_ If they would have asked you, I Was there 33 physical surveillance? 16 24 Mr Nosenko. Yes , I will answer yes it was Mr Klein you would have answered yes? Tup SECRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 30 ================================================== Page 31 ================================================== OP ECRET 29 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir 2 Mr_ Klein You also testified before this Committee thait in accord with the orders from MoScOw that there was technicall surveillance , and you told us in detail about how they tapped his phone and they would record it and make copies of it and gave it to a certain person _ Again, drawing your attention to page 29,of that same paragraph , does that say anything about the technical sur A veillance that you told us about? 0 Mr Nosenko No , sir Mr Klein_ Did you forget? 12 Mr Nosenko But, if you ask, even an agent of FBI/ 13 I doubt it, no , In KGB control of correspondence , control telephone , it's not big dea1 It' s giving order to control 15 telephone can be given Chief of Section 8 not speaking of 16 Chief of Department, not speaking of Chief of Directorate 17 and not speaking to receive a warrant from the judge _ Contrd1 13 0f correspondence can be signed, permission to put control 19 over correspondence can be done the Deputy Chief of 20 Section even _ 2 Do ' you understnd what I want to tell you, it is absolutely 22 considered, KGB , no thing important _ 73 Mr . Klein. Is it a deal to check periodically at 24 someone 5 place of employment and talk to their neighbors? Is 25 that a big deal? IuP SECRET IM 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 31 by by big ================================================== Page 32 ================================================== top SECREt 30 Mr Nosenko No: . Mr Klein. But you told' them about that , didn t you? Mr Nosenko . I tried 'simply to describe them what kind of not to take activel what does it mean, passive typ 5 of coverage of the target? Mr Klein. Tfetheyowouldehave asked you was there any technical surveillance, then would you have told them? Mr Nosenko . I woula have said they were told, even word for word, in this document said not the technical surveil 10 lance . They have a certain terminology _ Let' s say surveil-' lance, it S called to lead _ the:#measurement::N/N, 'and: to 12 control:ete]ephone toikead the:<measyrement M_ 13 Mr Klein. If they would have said, there any technical surveillance of Oswald?" would you have said 15 "yes" ? 16 Mr Nosenko Sure 17 Mr Klein, You also testified to this Committee that 13 the KGB would have had to have; known about Marina Oswald , 19 you said the end_ of the month they would have a batch 29 0f papers? 21 Mr Nosenko You told me , if she haa seen him , You, 22 sone thing metnioned , 15 13 33 Mr Klein Because surveillance was on Oswald, they woyld 24 have had to pick her Mr Nosenko I cannot tell you it was. in the moment when TOp SEGRET= 50955 DooId:32277209 Page 32 "Was by up? ================================================== Page 33 ================================================== 8 W a . 02W ME ] 31 he was seeing her or not. You said assume that he met her 2 16 and 13 , and it became known to KGB thro surveillance. I said by the end of month that at least something will have on her, who is she , where she i8 working, where she studied, where 5 she work Mr _ Klein. They would know that through the surveillance on Oswald? Mr Nosenko The fact will be known through surveillance;; then through other outfits of KGB they will find whatever 10. possible on her Mr Klein._ Were you ever asked the following question 12 and did you giye the followihg answer: 13 "Question: Why wouldn t she referring to Marina have 14 been investigated when she flirst met Oswald? Answer: They did not know she was a friend of Oswald 15 16 until they applied for marralige There was no surveillance 0 on Oswald to show that he knew her_ 17 Were you ever asked that question and did you, give that 13 19 answer? Mr Nosenko . Sir, I do; not remember my questions and 20 answers . 21 Mr _ Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for 22 identification, please , and; shown to the witness 73 The Chairman The clerk will identify for the record 24 the number appearing on the document 25 Top SEBRET Mi J0955 DogIde32271203 33 04p8* ugh Pawe; ================================================== Page 34 ================================================== 8 Un WEWnc & 32 The Clerk JFK-F-6 . The document referred to was marked as JFK Exhibit No . {F-6. for identification_ ) Mr . Klein Looking at that document , have you ever seen it before? Mr Nosenko- No , Sir. Mr Klein. You have never: seen that before? Mr Nosenko . I never have seen it before Mr_ Klein. And is thatj a report that says on the cover Memorandum for the Record; Subject: Followup Report on the 12 Oswald Case; Source: AEDONOR _ 1I Was AEDONOR your code name 13 at one time? 14 Mr Nosenko . I do noti know IF Mr _ Klein "Date of Interview: 3 July 1964_ Does it 16 say that on the cover? 17 Mr _ Nosenko . Yes , Sir. 18 Mr Klein. And turning; to the very last page , page 18 419 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir 20 Mr _ Klein_ Does it say "Thomas A Ryan" ? 2 Mr _ Nosenko Yes_ 22 Mr _ Klein "SRICI/KGB ~3 Mr Nosenko . Yes 24 Mr Klein. Did you ever hear. of a man named Thomas A 25 Ryan? iop SECRET a 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 34 "5anrsenstn RtXS 9020 *; NS P3 Wm" ================================================== Page 35 ================================================== TOP_SECRET 33 Mr Nosenko . I do not know a man Thomas A Ryan Mr . Klein. Do you recall speaking to a man named Thomas Ryan? Mr Nosenko . sir. Mr Klein_ Would you turn in this document to page 9 5 On page 9 , the last question' and answer , would you read the 6 question for us and read the answer? 7 Mr . Nosenko _ "Why wouldn 't she have been investigated when she first met Oswald?' didn t know she was a friend of Oswald until they 10 applied for marriage _ There: was no surveillance on Oswald 11 to show that he knew her ." 4V Mr . Klein. Were You ever asked that question and did you 12 ever_ 13 Mr Nosenko . I do not remember , sir. But if it 14 it must be asked and I this answered: 15 Mr Klein_ Was that the truth? 16 Mr _ Nosenko . As far as I remember those conditions in 17 which I was asked , better ask where I was in this period of 8 time , what conditions I was kept , and what type of interrogatipns 19 were going on 20 Mr Klein_ Did you tell us yesterday that you always told the truth? 21 Mr . Nosenko . Yes 22 Mr Klein_ when you about Oswald? 23 Mr: Nosenko _ Yes. 24 Mr Klein_ Was . this question relating to . Oswald? 25 Mr Nosenko . I was answering what I could. Top_SECRET MF 50955 DocId;32277209 Paye 35 No , No , "They is , spoke ================================================== Page 36 ================================================== 0 Ur @bie ] 34 Mr Klein Is that the truth, that they didn't 2 Mr Nosenko . It's how it is put, how it is put . You see , again_ wouldn t she have been investigated _ Here must be question was in this forn The investigation , not- the checkup of her, but, let's ,say, invitation for conversation , some thing of this kind, it's some kind; of here misunderstanding on both parts _ 1 that would: be. mine and interrogator. Mr Klein. It is an inaccurate transcript? Mr Nosenko I consider many, many things are 10 inaccurate Mr Klein. Is that transcribed accurately? 12 Mr Nosenko . I do not know , sir 13 Mr Klein. That answerl do you think it is transcribed 4 accurately, that that' s your} answer? Is Mr Nosenko . Well , I can only explain one thing. 16 Let' s say there was KGB found out that he had an acquaintance, 7 Marina Prusakava , They were not married_ didn t know i3 they didn t apply for marriage. What kind of first will be 49 investigation? Checkup in archives of KGB of Byelorussia, and 20 on the basis_ whatever kind O8 material on her will be founa 21 Let's say , if 'she{ was ever on trial militia, under arrest. If militia had any material they can expand further. They 3 can also send checkup in thel place of her one , it's in one 22 order , to give uS the picture of the character of the target , 25 check on him in place of his work and check in place of his living , TOP SECRET H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 36 1074 74 ^ Tanu_ #esrt} TiM {l: why only They by ================================================== Page 37 ================================================== UT. 0Lbme | 35 in one order_ But more, farther investigation, the true investigation this is called checkup I p willl be studied and they will start when they see some thing, let: S say , suspicious in behavior of Oswald and this his connection In case of Marina, when they found out that they are going to marry 1 sure 0 they will bel more farther investigation , thorough 1 nvetigation; but bbefore it will only be checkup From .thispoint of view I was answering this question j0 Mr Klein_ Let me make it simple _ Mr Nosenko Right _ Mr Klein If the question was asked exactly as it appears 13 here , wouldn t she havel been investigated when she first 14 met Oswald? would this be Your answer? Is that a correct 13 answer as it appears here? Mr Nosenko _ Well 1 it {appears here , but I do_not remember I6 17 Sure, I answered and this was question, but_ 0 gentlemen Mr Klein. Was this true? This says "There was no surveillance on Oswald to show that he knew her"_ is that right or wrong? Mr Nosenko This is what I answered , It is right It is written here Mr Klein. You remember answering that? 24 Mr Nosenko . No 25 Mr Klein. How do you know you answered that? TOP SEGRET M 50955 DocId:32277209 Page .87 Pzvn 1Y,38804677""7709 44046357 "Why yes _ ================================================== Page 38 ================================================== I Ur ocbme ] 36 Mr Nosenko . You are giving me official document 2 Mr Klein. You have no recollection answering this? Mr Nosenko'_ Sir, I do not have any recollection of interrogations Mr . Klein. If you answered that, were telling the truth? Mr Nosenko . I don t know _ I answered _ Must be_ This is how I answered question. Mr Klein_ 0 You testified to this Committee that the KGB 10 decided to have Lee Harvey Oswald examined two psychiatrists You told us about how it was decided, who decided it, where 12 it was decided. Then they found Lee Harvey Oswala to be mentalfy 13 unstable? 1 Mr Nosenko Right 15 Mr Klein. Have you ever been asked the' following 16 questions and given the following answers 17 "Question: Did the KGB make a ~psychological assessment 18 0f Oswald? 19 "Answer: No nothing, but at the hospital it was also said 20 he was not te normal The hospital didn t write that he was 2] mad; just that he is not nokrmal 22 "Question: Did the hospital authorities conduct any 13 psychological testing? IF 24 "Answer: I_don t think sO:_ There was no report like this Mr Nosenko No , I tolld that there was opinion of TOP SEGHET ZH 50955 DooId:32271209_ ka 83735; 37307 3AFRmR4 of ~you by qui Page ================================================== Page 39 ================================================== 4 U0 &Eumc | 37 psychiatrists that hewas mentally unstable Mr Klein- Is what I read_ to you correct? Mr _ Nosenko . Sir, I do' not know whether it is correct or wrong . I am answering You what I know Mr Klein. Did You ever make a statement like that? Mr Nosenko . I do not remember statements for five years interrogation_ Mr Klein. I would direct your attention to the Ryan Report _ Mr Nosenko Yes Mr Klein. Page 7 _ Mr Nosenko _ Yes Mr Klein. Would you read for us the first and second 4 tions and answers, please_ 9 Mr Nosenko . "Did the KGB make psychological assessment of Oswald? 17 "No , nothing. But at the hospital it was also said he was not te normal The hospital didn t write that he was' 9 just that he was not normal mentally unstable 1i 20 Mr _ Klein. Please keepi reading= 21 Mr . Nosenko . "Did the hospital authorities conduct any 18 22 psychological testing? 16 ~3 I don think SO . There was no report like this_ 24 "What was the Soviets opinion of Oswald' s personality, 25 what kind of man did they think he was? 0t Top SEcrET IH 30955 P9cI4:32277209 Rage b9_ ques qui mad; 't ================================================== Page 40 ================================================== 0 &T @cunc / 38 "KGB throught he was of no interest for the country or for the KGB that he is not normal, that he should leave the country 04 Mr _ Klein: Did 'ou say anything in there about two 5 psychiatrists examining Oswald and about reading their reports which said:Jne was mentally unstable? Did you say anyth about that there?; ' Mr Nosenko Sir, I do not remember what I said to them ; but I would like you-to find out the conditions in which interr- 10 gations werje: done _ how it was done, by what procedures , when two interrogators are seated_ I never knew any names never announced me names: 5o one:playing-part of bad guy and othe good guy , and it starting slapping then , not physically but I 14 mean, psychologically and in conversation, turning question up- side down hhowever they would like 1.0 then this leave another one 16 will start in softer way - Mr Kllein. When did this 18 Mr Nolsenko- And I would not trust of their documents 19 in those pelriods of time Up to 1967 when we started from the 20 beginning_ to work Mr Bruce Solie: That is the one thing. Second 1 my knowledge of language was very poor in '64 . I didn' t funderstand many questions and none of them, excluding Mr 33 Iperyabin, knew Russian language and Mr Deryabin was :asking 24 ine only quelstions concerning my biography and this type of ques- 25 Iion, but nonoperative questions TOF SEBRET MN 50955 DocId:32277209 Page_ 4o Lty 04Y24 Ftf& GotT/ t 43 7X ing they any. ================================================== Page 41 ================================================== '0 [ cynE ! 39 Mr Kilein Do you have any recollection of being asked these quesitions and giving the answers that you just read to us?1 Mr- Nosenko Sir , I told you , and I will tell I do not remember their questions , and I' do not remember my answers; but I tried tol be truthful with them Then was period of time when I have seen that were simply was laughing at me ; I rejected to answer questions 1 and wheneverlthey were asking, I would m answer, IL do not remember { I do not know I do not remember Mr Klein: These answers , do say W I do not know 10. I do not remember 'or do these 'give responsive answers? Mr Nosenko . Sir, I do {not trust this document 'prepared 12 by people in those years 13 Mr Klein. Is it your testimony that these might not be 14 accurate questions and answers? 15 Mr Nosenko My opinion O I cannot tell you exactly, I 16 say might be Mr . Klein. You testified Ia Mr _ Nosenko . One more thing: If we are going into this, 19 a number of interrogations ; I was under drugs, and on me was 20. used a number of drugs and I know that, and hallucinations 21 and talking during night and sodium and everything, :even many 22 others , and a number 0f things were absolutely incoherent _ 13 Mr _ Klein_ This hostile interrogation. that you have been 24 referring to , when did it begin? Mr Nosenko . Arrested me 4th of April, 1964 , started: TOP SEGRET H 70955 DocI4;32277249 Bage they they ================================================== Page 42 ================================================== 4 V0 OeuiL / 40 interrogate me in two They interrupted nt I don t know interrogate a month , two, made break; then again, then again period of no interrogation; then again interrogations , up to 24 hours, not giving me possibility to sleep _ 5 Mr Klein_ And this wasi all after April 1964? 6 Mr . Nosenko .= Yes; sir That -is why I.will not take as a document anything what concerns interrogations in hostile, absolutely hostile, situation. 10 Mr Klein. You testified in detail yesterday about the cable which you saw which was sent from Mexico City to the First 12 Chief Directorate in Moscow and you testified that you actually 3 read that cable and that it told that Oswald was in Mexico City 14 and he wanted permission for visa to come to the Soviet Union J5 Do you remember reading that cable and describing it for d} uS in detafl, how long it was? 17 Mr Nosenko Yes , sir. Ja Mr Klein Did you ever say to anyone that after Oswald 19 went to Mirsk, the next time you heard: of him was in connection 20 with Oswald' s application to; the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City for a Soviet reentry visa and you did not know how Mexico City 22 advised Moscow of_ the subject' s- application; your knowledge 33 resulted from an oral inquiry of your department by M.I_ Turalin 24 Did you ever say that, that you did not know how Mexico 25 city advised MoscOw of Oswald' s application? TOP SECRET N 50955 DocId;32277209 Bage, 2 'clot TF#ctW W- M 37G: Rid oit days _ 4 ,` ================================================== Page 43 ================================================== 0 Ur JLbmL | 41 Mr _ Nosenko . I do not remember I am telling you what I have seein, cable , what was told through Lieutenant iColonel Alekseevstoittell to Turalin the;opinion of Second Chief Directorate Seventh Department . Mr Kllein. I draw your attention to page 30 of the FBI report in lfront of you. Mr Nosenko: I do: not have it: (Pausle) Yes, lsir. 80 Mr Klein. On the top of page 30 , read for us the under- 2f 71 lined secition on the top, beginning "The next time 82 Mr Nosenko _ "The next time Nosenko heard of Oswald was 13 in connectlion with Oswald' s application to Soviet Embassy in j4 Mexico City for a Soviet reentry visa. Nosenko did not know how 15 Mexico City advised Moscow of subject' s application His 6 knowledge resulted from an oral' inquiry of Nosenko S department by Turalin Service No _ Counterintelligence in Foreign 18 Countries First Chief Directorate Nosenko recalled that Turalin 5 had orally contacted Vladimir Alexseev , Chief of Sixth Section 20 of Nosenka 5 Tourist Department , with respect to Oswald 21 Nosenko S Idepartment had no interest in Oswald and they recommended that Oswald' s request for reentry visa be denied 73 Nosenko couldn t recall when Oswald visited Mexico City in 0186 24 connection with visa application Mr Klein. Did you ever say this to an FBI agent? TOP SEGRET H 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 03 #Zt 2 , ================================================== Page 44 ================================================== 0 W[ G&6mc ] 42 Mr Nosenko Must be I said it, it's here in document 2 Mr Klein. It says in here that Nosenko did not" know how Mexico 'City advised Moscow of subject S application Did you say that? Mx Nosenko . Must be; I said this in this way . Mr Klein. And did you tell us that not only did you know how advised them cable but that you read the cable? Mr Nosenko This is what I recollection_ Mr Klein. Did you tell them the truth? 10 Mr Nosenko I was trying to tell what I remembered . Mr Klein. And this FBI report which you just read from, 12 would you iook back on the first page and would you tell us the 13 date of thatreport? 14 Mr Nosenko . Fifth of March , 1964 . I5 Mr Kiein. March 5 , 1964 . Is that before April 16 19643 17 Mr Nosenko . Yes,sir_ 3 Mr . Kilein. That was before any hostile interrogations 9 began, is ihat correct? 39 Mr Nosenko Yes _ Mr Kllein. And at that time you said that you did not know anything about the cable , is that right? Mr Nosenko . This is what I answered them_ 1 how I remembered Mr Klein, I have a question_ Do you understand from what psychological turmoil a person passing who defected , do TOp SEGRET H 50935 Dgcld;32277209 Page 44 3 they by 4 , ================================================== Page 45 ================================================== TOP_SECRET 43 You understand that it is necessary time , time to settle psy - chologically, he doesn t know how he will be living, what he wt1l be doing, and at the same time a person feels attitude on the part of those who helped him to come CIA? I felt something going on _ 5 Mr . Klein. You testified to uS today that you didn 't know how wrote the summary of Oswald' s file in the First Depar- ment. because You never had an opportunity to read it. Did You ever tell anyone that Fedroseve :and Matveev, Fse-d-r-0-s-e -V-e and M-a-t-V-e-e-V 0f the First Department , Second Chief 10 Directorate, took the file and wrote a second "spravka" which you told uS was a S ummary ? 11 Mr Nosenko . Summary _ 12 Mr Klein. Did You ever tell anybody that? 13 Mr Nosenko Must be I told, it is again. right , because 14 you see not Fedroseve Fedroseve was Chief of First Depart- 15 ment , American Department , and I will repeat what I told you 16 yesterday _ Matveev has come to take file but surely Fedroseve 17 who is Chief of American Department , he had given call to Chie I8 of Seventh Department _ He was involved in this; that is I 19 mentioned hin. He was Chief of First American Department _ His deputy , Colonel Matveev, has come and not alone ; with hin 20 was a couple of officers , has come and told that Gribanov 21 ordered and Fedroseve giving call to Department , we must take 22 it, and took- Who of them wrote, I: do nojt know no doubts that Fedroseve 23 and Matveev were: participated: in the preparation of docunents 24 25 TOP_ SECRET HH 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 45 why ================================================== Page 46 ================================================== 0 WX 0Lbmz ] 44 They are responsible for First American Department Mr Klein. So. you have an idea of' who would have written, 3 is that: correct? Mr . Nosenko . American Department, no doubts that this two will; be participating or correcting Mr Klein. But you didn t read that S ummary, is that right? Mr Nosenko I do not remember reading the summary Mr Klein. Did you read it? Do you have any recollection_ of reading it? 0 Mr Nosenko = No , I haven t seen summary Mr Klein_ Are you positive that you didn t see that 12 S ummary? Mr Nosenko _ I have seen summaries in the file of Oswald 13 14 Mr Klein Are You positive you didn t see. the summary written by the First Department after they took the file away? I5 Mr Nosenko . I do not remember seeing As I told You , 16 I haven t seen it. Mr Klein. You testified that Oswald was considered normal 13 prior to the time he cut his wrist, and even told us that you 19 were surprised, you had no indication he would do something like that- Were you ever asked the following question, and did You 22 give the following answer: 23 0 In what way was the Oswald case handled differently from 24 01 cases of other American defectors? 25 TOP SEBRET Tm 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 46 ================================================== Page 47 ================================================== UT 0EblL ] 45 I1 Answer: The main difference is that he was not to be 2 allowed to stay. He was considered to be not normal Mi Mr Nosenko . This is what cases I know who were staying . Mr Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not normal, referring to the period before he tried to commit suicide? Mr Nosenko I do not remember; but if I said it, it' s not right becuase we didn t know. that he was normal or not normal Up until the moment of he cut his wrist we started to suspect. Mr _ Klein. Did You ever say that he was considered not normal? Mr _ Nosenko . Sir, I do: not remember 13 Mr. Klein. Well; if You would have said it, would it have been correct? 1S Mr _ Nosenko _ No , it would not be correct, because he cannoj 16 be considered abnormal_ We didn t know anything up till he cut the wrist. 12 Mr Klein. You testified to this Committee that you were 19 present at a meeting with the Chief of the Seventh Department 20 Chief of your section, Major Rastrusin, at that meeting, it was 21 decided that Oswald should not be, given permission to defect . You told us where the mee ting took place _ told us who 3 was there 24 Mr Nosenko . Right. A Mr Klein. You told uS that Krupnov was not even in the TOP SECRET H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 47 %708725 02 MtRGnMGXSNZ 7858575- ================================================== Page 48 ================================================== 0 UT 0cume | 46 Seventh Department at that time? Mr Nosenko . Krupnov appeared a little later Mr Klein. Did you ever teli anyone that on the basis of your evaluation of Oswald 0 you instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald 9 through Intourist interpreter that Oswald would not be permitted to remain in the U.S.S.RS permanently and that he would have to depart at the expiration of his visa? Did you ever tell anybody that? Mr Nosenko . Sir, I do not remember_ If I said it, it 10 was wrong , not right, because Krupnov started participation only in this case when Oswald was allowed to stay- In the moment 12 when Oswald arrived in Soviet Union, when he went in hospital 13 Krupnov was still not in Seventh Department He very soon 14_ appeared later. Then it was wrong . If I stated it, it was 13 wrong _ Mr Klein. Directing your attention to the FBI report in 16 front of You, I would like to draw your attention to page 28 Mr . Nosenko. Right _ Mr Klein. Beginning with the underlined section beginning I9 with the first "On the basis in the second paragraph, would Z0 you read this? Mr Nosenko _ 16 Nosenko and Krupnov on the basis of this information, concluded that Oswald was of no interest to the 01 KGB and both agreed that Oswald appeared somewhat abnormal 24 Mr . Klein. Not that, the 'second paragraph 1 0p On the basis 24 of" TuP SECRET #M 50955 DocId:32277209 Page_ 48 Soornur7737rincta #pmwoeittoat 43 ================================================== Page 49 ================================================== 6 U5 Ocbnc | 47 Mr Nosenko . "On the basis 0f Nosenko S evaluation of Oswald he instructed Krupnov to advise 'Oswald through the Intourist interpreter Oswald would not be permitted to remain in the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have to 'depart at the expiration 0f his visa, and thereafter seek reentry as a permanent resident through routine channels at the Soviet It Embassy in the United States Mr _ Klein_ Did you ever_ say that? Mr Nosenko _ 0- I do not remember saying this It 'can be 10 that S imply misunderstanding , and , you see , this is not transcription from the tape. It is , I will say a summary , and I do not remember But,+if I said this, it isinot right becausel 12 13 Krupnov didn} t participate it in the beginning Mr Klein Also it says i4 Mr Nosenko _ It was participation' of Rastrusin. 1S Mr Klein. Also is it correct when it says in tbere that 16 you made the decision and 17 Mr Nosenko . No , I couldn t make: decision , being' Deputy 13 Chief of Section_ 19 Mr Klein. Does it say anything there 20 Mr _ Nosenko. I could say my opinion, yes _ 21 Mr . Klein. Does it say anything there aboutya meeting 22 to determine what to do , or does it say that on basis of your ~3 evaluation, you told Krupnov to do it? 24. Mr Nosenko . It's not right_ I said only that Krupnov 22 TOP SEBRET IH 50955 DocId;32277283- Rage 49 7oFP ================================================== Page 50 ================================================== Ur Ycbnz ) 48 appeared later. This period, what we are discussing here, was Rastrusin involved, 'decision cannot be done on my own , being Deputy Chief of Section; decision cannot be done even being Deputy Chief of Section , Chief Section, at least it must be on the level of Chief of Department Mr Klein. So it is incorrect,. is that what you are saying Mr Nosenko It is incorrect, and; Krupnov I do not remember Mr ~Klein- You told us , when I questioned you about the 10' fact' that you didn t tell the FBI that there was ,physical 1) surveillance the last question I asked you, if they would have 12 asked you if he was physically surveilled, woula have told 13 them and You .said Yes? 4 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sure I will say IS Mr Klein_ Wexe you ever asked the following question 16 and did: You give the following answer: "Was he physically surveilled" and that is referring to Minsk; and you answered there was none" ? Mr Nosenko_ It was not right , because it was order given 19 20. and he was under periodical surveillance Mr Klein. I draw your attention to page 9 of" the CIA 21 22 document in front of you Memorandum for the Record _ Mr . Nosenko. I do not have it. 33 24 Mr Klein. The Ryan Report I draw your attention to pag 75 9 Thp SEGRET 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 50 T:t#gsr5mi 043 ~3 W37r9"T= of you "No , ================================================== Page 51 ================================================== iur Jcumt 49 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir_ 2 Mr Klein. Would you read the first question and the first answer? Mr Nosenko . "Was he physically surveilled? 1 there was none Mr _ Klein. Did you ever give that answer to that question Mr _ Nosenko . I do not remember; it'8 not right, the answer. Mr Klein_ I would ask that this tape , which is marked 10 3 July 64 , Reel No . 66 , be deemed marked for identification_ 71 The Chairman_ Indicate for the record the marking . 12 The Clerk. JFK-F-7 _ (The item referred to was marked 13 14 as JFK Exhibit No . F-7 for identification. ) IS 16 The Chairman We will recess for about five minutes (A brief recess was taken. ) 12 The Chairman . The Committee is back in session During the recess the witness made a request of the 1S Chair that he be permitted to make a brief statement prior to 20 counsel for the Committee resuming interrogation_ The Chair is going to grant that request and recognize 22 the witness at this time for such statement as he would like ~3 24 to make Mr Nosenko Thank you very much , Mr Chairman TXP SEGRET W 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 51 "NO , ================================================== Page 52 ================================================== 0 0f JLung 50 Mr Chairman , ladies and gentlemen 0 I arrived in the United States in 1964 , 12th of February I felt some thing was going wrong because the attitude on the part of the officers from CIA who was dealing with me , I felt was going wrong , by a number of remarks , their behavior. Besides , I was in a psychological process It' s a very thing , when you are com to live in a new country _ I left the country where I was born , never mind , my defection was strictly on ideological basis , but still psychologically is very thing and very 10 serious thing. 1 A very short period of time_ F April 4 , I was invited on check - up for the doctor and this checkup turned to be arrest. 13 Arrested was in very rude form, nobody beat my physically no , but in rude. form, trying to: put dignity of the person , of 5 human being, down , kept in very hard conditions I was 16 smoking from 14 years old, never tted. Iwas rejected to 17 smoke I didn 1 t see books I didn t read anything . I was 13 sitting in four walls, metal bed in the center of the room and 19 that is all 20 I was hungry and this was the most difficult for me becaus 21 how I tried not to think about food . I was thinking about food 22 because all the time I want to eat. I was receiving very small 73 amount , and very poor food . I was sitting some kind of attic; 24 it was hot , no air conditioning, cannot breathe; windows no 25 windows , closed over I was permitted to shave once a week , TOP SEBRET H 50955 DocId:32277202 Paye 52 NE #w063020030 {65 059_ big ing big qui ================================================== Page 53 ================================================== 1 Ur 0€ & M & % 51 to take showers once a week _ From me were taken toothpaste toothbrush The conditions were really inhuman conditions in this place; and later transferred in another place which is now I know where it was ; the second place, Camp Perry , where certain house and the same very, very Spartanaconditions; three and a half years _ Besides that,_ on Me were used different' types of drugs and sleeping drugs _ 1 hallucination drugs 0 and whatever I do not know and don t want to know 10 What I want to tell you ,_ the arrest was done illegally without due process of law, without MD in violation of 12 Constitution, which was found by Rockefeller Commission It 13 wasn' t mentioned," my name but simply nameless: defector, who was over three years in extremely Spartan conditions _ I5 Interrogations were done sometimes 24 hours , not giving me 16 an hour to sleep: Interrogations were in very hostile manner 17 Simply , what I would say were rejected_ How long I will be _ 13 it is without due process , no warrants; will be eternally, 9 25 years_ m How long twe: would: want you to keep. That is 20 I consider all interrogations 1 all materials , which concerns this period of time are illegal, and I am not recognizing them 27 rand don t want to see them And I am asking you not to_ ask 13 questions based on this interrogations , including trying to play the tape during this interrogations _ For me it difficult sto return:back: I passed through hell I started new life in IOPSSEGHET H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 53 tv8f7 MAk tsrrrstnm 7un ARS why #You why "s ================================================== Page 54 ================================================== i.ur J[bnc | 52 69 only because I was true defector. I never raised this question with correspondents_ I never. went in press_ because_ I am loyal to the country which accepted me and I didn t wanted] to. hurt the country _ 5 I didn t hurt, even to hurt , the 'intelligence_ 1 the CIA I didn t consider the whole CIA was responslbe Were responsibl several people , for this. Thank God they are not working there anymore _ They are out If I will go in press , if I would be telling about these inhumane conditions , I will hurt not only the agencies, the intelligence service of the U.S., I will hurt the interests of the U.S #Who would_like to defect;rreading 12 in what conditions and what treatment defectors is receiving_ 3 Sir , I prefer that you be using materials when it was started humane relations with me , which was started at the end of 15 I still was under arrest but I was transferred from the extremel 0 Spartan conditions and with me started to work Mr Bruce 17 Solie 0 who passed through the whole life, through all cases through everything. People who were 'talking with me before were coming with what they were told_ 7 how to approach to me , 20 how to treat me They have come with made opinion, before whatever I will say yes or no That is why I consider it 22 is all unlawful documents in the period of interrogations done by anyone in CIA up until the end of '67 . 24 The Chairman Is there: anything further, Mr Nosenko? 2: Mr Nosenko _ No , sir_ (Pages 53 thru 78 being Committee bus iness only are excerpted. ) Tup seCRet iHN 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 54 #Tot #2"r_ "nr96 *ic6 0 167 . ================================================== Page 55 ================================================== 8 Wp #EZkET 78 Mr Blakey Shall I inform: te witness? The Chairman In light 0f the time situation and our original intention of trying to' wind up 10:.00. pim 1 the Chair thinks perhaps we ought to and invoke a five minute rule 5 s0 'that everybody gets a fairopportunity rather than to proceed: informally and extend this matter over a long period of time Anyone have any objection? All right, bring the witness in_ (Whereupon; at 8 : 43 0 'clock p . m . 1 the witness returned to the hearing room. ) The Chairman Let the record reflect the fact: the witness has again returned to the witness table and, Mr Nosenko , 13 at this time counsel for the Comittee has concluded his questions 14 to you and at thispoint in time the members of the Committee TS would like to be able to pose questions to you with reference i6 to your testimony here yesterday and this evening. Is that 17 agreeable to you, Sir? i3 Mr Nosenko Yes, sir. 19 The Chairman Thank you . 20 The Chair at this point would invoke the five minute 2} rule. The Chair will begin the questions_ Mr Nosenko , you are now a citizen of the United States you are now an employee of the CIA , I understand as a consultant is that correct? Mr Nosenko . On private contract . I am. not an employee HM 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 55 Top SESRET by: try ================================================== Page 56 ================================================== Ur JECKET 79 of the CIA I 'am On; a vate contract, used as a consultant on coun terintelligence of the Soviet KGB The Chairman And in that capacity, sir are you paid an annual salary? Mr Nosenko Yes , sir I am paid an annual salary The Chairman And what is that salary? Mr Nosenko . 835 000 The Chairman And Mr Nosenko _ It is the last Year_ 1 because it was cost of 10 living . 11 The Chairman _ I see . In that capacity, do you contract 12 out also to other persons or other organizations? 13 Mr Nosenko _ No 14 The Chairman. This is your sole incone? 1S Mr Nosenko _ Only one sole income 16 The Chairman Has the CIA given you anything else of 17 value other than a salary, that is, a home , anything of that 3 sort? 19 Mr Nosenko . No , sir And in the book published, written 20 by Epstein was mentioned CIA bought me home No sir, I bought 21 home on My money,' nobody bought me a home no 22 The Chairman You also now are remarried and you have 33 Mr Nosenko Yes sir, I am married_ I am American citizen 24 I have five stepchildren and six grandchildren 28 The Chairman You now have a passport? Do have a H# 5955 DocId:32277209 Page 56 TOP SEGRET pri You ================================================== Page 57 ================================================== Wur JtckET 80 passport, as a 2 Mr Nosenko Yes , I have a passport , which I once used sent by the 'Agency in 1975 , in England , for week where I was talking with British Intelligence and Counterintelligencel Services , concerning my knowledge 0f the Second Chief Direc- torate , KGB in general The Chairman Is that the only country to which you have traveled since your defection? Mr Nosenko . No _ I have traveled on behalf of. the 10 Central Intelligence Agency also for the last four Years_ I was in eleven countries And I never received or demanded or 12 asking any special fees for consultations with all friendly 13 intelligence services 1 never 14 The Chairman Have You ever returned to Soviet Russia? 15 Mr Nosenko. Never once in Soviet Union from 1964 and 16 hepe will never see it agains 1 The Chairman And how long have you now been a consultant 13 for CIA? 19 Mr Nosenko . I was from 1969 , from April 1969 , when I was 20 released from detention arrest The Chairman Now will you clarify for uS when you first 22 were placed under arrest? Mr Nosenko . Fourth of April, 1964 _ 2 The Chairman And on what: date had you defected? 29 Mr Nosenko I defected 4th of February of 1964 in Geneva Iiib HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 57 TOP SECRET being ================================================== Page 58 ================================================== 4 Up JECRET 81 Switzerland_ The Chairman And when you were placed under arrest, where were' you placed in detention? Mr _ Nosenko . Sir, I do not know it was somewhere around Washington, close to Washington, where I was 64 and beginning '65 , approximately. I don t hear any radio, I didn t see any newspaper , I do not know, didn t know anything what happen in the world for many years . I know that it was by car from Virginia where I was To_ staying from 12 of February 64 , I was taken by car for visit to doctor 1 and it was 30 , 40 minute drive 0 it was in this area , 12 but then in approximately after a year and maybe 13 months , a 13 year and one month 1 roughly , I was transferred in very 14 peculiar conditions , was put under shackles and handcuffs , blindfolded, put in the car, and don' t know where I was going , IS I heard, passing through city, :I ccouldn: tvunderstand I couldn' t see anything , then I heard airplanes , I understood 17 that I was somewhere in airport, and once I was scared to death i3 I. think I was thinking they were returning me to the Russians 19 Well, they put me in airplane 20 The Chairman. Mr . Nosenko , my time has expired_ I want 21 22 to recognize Mr _ Nosenko I do not know the place , sir I know I only 73 now found out reading the book of Daniel Schorr that I was in 24 Camp Perry up to the end of '67 _ That is what I found out from 5 H 50955 DocId.32277209 Page 58 IOP SEGRET only ================================================== Page 59 ================================================== To? SECRET 82 the book 2 The Chairman Thank Mr Preyer. Mr Preyer. Mr _ Nosenko; one thing that comes through vefy 5 strongly in your testimony is that it is a hard life to be a defector. I think to the average mentality we think it would be good for a country to welcome a defector, but to the intelligence mentality apparently a defector is immediately sus pect , and you have recounted 'treatment here , and apparently 10 Lee . Harvey Oswald from your testimony was greeted somewhat 11 like this in the U.S.S:R: His treatment was 'much different 12 from yours 13 One thing he was not an intelligence agent , of course 14 But you have indicated that he was kept at arms length by the I5 KGB The impression I was the mere fact of being a defector 16 caused the KGB to be less interested in him than if it was 17 someone they had recruited? 18 Mr Nosenko Right _ 19 Mr Preyer Although he was kept at arms lengeh: by the 20 KGB , in the sense that he was not contacted , it does appear that he lived very well there relatively speaking . He cer- 22 tainly lived much better than you lived in your early years_ 73 That he was given a job in Minsk, he was given a pension , 24 which is some thing that seems extraordinary in this coun 25, from the Red Cross , and apparently pretty good housing conditions H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 59 Top SECRET you _ 3 your get try , ================================================== Page 60 ================================================== Top SECRET 83 in Minsk Is that typical that a defector would be treated in Russia, is 'at: arm s Tengthz Mr Nosenko Every defector will be watched but , sir, 5 when you mentioned what he received being in Russia, it is very little I can give you only one example. When defectors Martin 'and Mitchell employees of NSA , who cooperated with KGB abroad , and then they defected to Soviet Union, they received extraordinary help- It is not like Oswald Oswald is nothing _ 10 Mr Preyer. The amount of money? Mr Nosenko ' The amount of money and other things_ 0 12 extroardinary 13 Mr Preyer For Oswald were not extraordinary? Mr Nosenko . No 14 Mr Preyer. You` mentioned the other three defectors that 15 You had known of _ What sort of treatment did they receive? 16 Mr Nosenko . I will tell you what Martin and Mitchell 17 Mr Preyer. Were they two of the other three? 13 Mr Nosenko_ These two, for example I can mention others 19 what I heard, I never work with them, what I heard. Martin 20 and Mitchell, decision of Soviet Government was given them, 21 to each one, s100 , 000 on their account,. was given apartment , 22 not like Oswald received, . but real' good apartment, so-called 23 classless society living .high class Each one was given car, 24 each one received life pension a month of 5000 Soviet rubles 25 HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 60 T0p SecreT way by ================================================== Page 61 ================================================== Iup SEtrET 84 up to death And each one was helped with work Both were 2 assigned -with: some type.of: research work:where they had given position, let' s say Martin was given position of researcher_ But amount of pay 0f his was analogical to the amount of pay 5 of the Director of this Institute 7 besides what he is receiving of pension_ TThis is, the treatment of those defectorsF whom they want, who had given them valuable information In case of excuse me was Annabella Bucar de fected some thing early 50s _ She was working in American Embassy in 10 Press Department _ She also received, in spite of the fact was making very. good money in the Soviet Union, she was working 12 for Moscow Radio, she was receiving life pension of big amount , 13 amount approximately what in Soviet Union is received by Deputy 14 of Minister of Ministry, of this or that industry. 15 Mr Preyer. But the defector who was not giving informa- 16 tion? 17 Mr Nosenko . Now , he will be , given a little bit something 13 pension like was Oswald, to Oswald given pension _ I don '+ 19 know what was given to Webster , a_ ~worker, who was defected in 59 20 and the way , in very short period of time-he decided he 21 doesn t like the life in the so-called Soviet paradise_ He 22 wanted to return back home but if he received it will be 23 analogical to what Oswald received, not more 24 The Chairman . The time of the gentleman has expired: 25 Mr Devine MW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 61 Top SECRET by ================================================== Page 62 ================================================== Tup SEtRET 85 Mi Devine Thank YoU , Mr Chairman Were you solicited to be a defector? ' Mr Nosenko . No , sir No , sir. 4 Mr Devine did you defect? 5 Mr Nosenko I de fected because I for Years of my life has come to number of conclusions that the whole society, t he whole system, is dictatorial system nondemocratic system, the true police state system, and especially working the KGB opened eyes for me defection was strictly on ideologi 10 cal basis 11 Mr Devine . Had you been out of t he Soviet Union prior 12 to your defection? 13 Mr Nosenko . Yes 14 Mr Devine . Other than to Geneva? IS Mr Nosenko . Yes , I was in England twice, then I was 16 passing through a number of' countries , staying two , 17 France, Belgium , HOlland _ I was in 1960: in Cuba . I3 Mr Devine You were a married man in Russia? 19 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir. 20 Mr Devine Had a child? 21 Mr Nosenko . Yes two daughters _ 22 Mr _ Devine Were you having some domestic difficulties? ~3 Mr Nosenko No I tried in 1960-' 61 , I tried to arrange 24 to go to work abroad with my family and in the last moment 29 it. fell down , and I understood I cannot go abroad with family, HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 62 Top SECRET Why My day , ================================================== Page 63 ================================================== Top SEGRET 86 and that is when I contacted CIA in '62 , I 4_ psychologically 2 I was ready, ideologically was ready and psychologically ready 3 to defect, but the question of family was bothering me Mr Devine But not enough to keep you there? Mr Nosenko _ Not enough to keep me there_ And in '64 6 I has come knowing that I will never return Mr Devine You were willing to abandon your family? Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir, because I didn t see possibility to take family out: I was living the last four or five Years 10 as a man with two souls , splitted personality , one I must show 11 and was showing , a5 good KGB officer, as a good Communist , as 12 a patriot of the Soviet system, the Soviet Union , and the other 13 part of me, the true part I am not believing in what I am 14 telling, I am not believing in the system, I do not like it, 15 I do not want it, and I consider what phony things are going 16 on because I was working in KGB , I knew it_ I simply couldn 't 17 more tolerate to be with this double splitted personality 13 Mr Devine Fbw did you dispose of your children and your 19 wife in Russia? 20 Mr Nosenko The thing was psychologically , my had, had 21 in mY mind_ help me My mother was rather rich, after death of 22 father, she was very rich woman and she had a lot that will be 23 enough not only for my children but their children and grand- 24 children_ From the point of view of material they will never 25 suffer. MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 63 TOP SECRET why ================================================== Page 64 ================================================== Top SeCRET 8 7 Mr Devine Yes but as a defector would there not be reprisals taken by the Soviet' Union against your family? 2 Mr Nosenko _ Sir, before the death of Stalin it could 3 be taken drastic measures against the family, but after the death of Stalin, from middle 1950s , te a little changes took 5 place in the Soviet Union, and the family will not suffer 6 Another thing, oh sure, will be certain things which they cannot achieve Let' s say my brother who studied later in the same Institute what I finish, Institute 0f International Relations_ he will never have possibility to go abroad, but 10 he will never be put in jail, can never be exiled from MoScOw , the same , no thing happened with family- 12_ Mr Devine The fact that you were a KGB man didn t your 13 defection cause some irritation among those in power over thered 14 Mr . Nosenko Sure IS Mr Devine Did they want to get you back , didn t 16 want to even with you? 17 Mr Nosenko _ Oh , yes;, and they are looking for me 13 Mr Devine But they took no reprisals against your family 19 Mr Nosenko _ No 20 Mr Devine How do you know that? 21 Mr Nosenko . Well , I do not know exactly, but you see , 22 there were some defections before The family didn t suffer likle ~3 it was, let' s say , in '40s and maybe up to death of Stalin. 24 Mr Devine Were those KGB defections? 25 Mr Nosenko . Even from KGB HI 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 64 TO? SECRET qui they get ================================================== Page 65 ================================================== Top Setret 8 8 The Chairman The time of the gentleman' has expired. 2 Mrs _ Burke? 3 Mrs _ Burke _ Well, I would like to go back a little bit after you decided to defect. I think you had a number of 5 conversations with the American Embassy , was it, or was it CIA, during those ten days that you were in touch , where' you negotiated whether or not you would in fact defect? 8 Mr Nosenko _ No , I contacted- CIA in "1962 and Mrs_ Burke In '64? 10 Mr Nosenko In '64 , when I arrived in Geneva , on second 11 I mailed a cable , and I knew a prearranged addressed , 12 and I knew that in two days somebody in appropriate place and 13 appropriate time will meet me from CIA 14 Mrs Burke And they met 15 Mr _ Nosenko . They met me and I was meeting them every 16 day , visiting, and when I had free time , visited secret address 17 in Geneva _ 13 Mrs _ Burke _ All right, during those times iyou were meeti 19 them , did you negotiate in terms of what your situation would 20 be here in the United States if you defected, or where You WO 21 22 Mr Nosenko. Well I put a question that what amount 23 salary I want, that will find for me job This I negotiatef 24 Mrs Burke Did you discuss whether or not you wou 25 be imprisoned? H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 65 ToP SECRET day you go? ================================================== Page 66 ================================================== Top SECRET 8 9 Mr Nosenko. No , it never come to my mind that they would 2 imprison me 3 Mrs Burke Did you tell them that I think You told uS you had some information you would well to them for a 5 certain amount of money . 6 Mr Nosenko . It' s in '62_ Burke In 62 You said that. In '64 you didn t discuss any sale of any information? Mr Nosenko . No no , on the contrary, for the period of 10 0 62 ~'64 , I tried to get as much as possible Tnformat jion: not 1 only to come what I knew where I participated in the depart- 12 ment where I worked but to find out as much as possible what can 13 be valuable to the American intelligence and I had come with 14 some luggage IS Mrs Burke _ All right, well during the time that you were 16 talking to them about what your salary would be , the circum- 17 stances of your defection, and I assue you told them what your 13 rank was , some of the things you worked on 19 Mr Nosenko . Yes 20 Mrs Burke _ did You tell them you worked on the 21 Oswald file? 22 Mr Nosenko . I do not remember , I can mention. I do not 23 remember honestly. 24 Mrs Burke - Did you discuss Oswald at all with them during 25 that period? MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 66 Top SECRET Mrs ================================================== Page 67 ================================================== Ivp SEtRET 9 0 Mr Nosenko_ I must, sure, mentioned this fact because , 2 no ; it happened such a thing_ I must mention = But I do not remember . I cannot tell you what questions were , what my answers were 5 Mrs Burke Did you tell them that the Soviet Union thought that Oswald may have been a United States agent? Mr Nosenko . Yes , I certainly it would be E anyone treated_ Oswald, or anyone from the United States who come to live on his own decided to defect, or they contacted 10 him before, will still will be suspected in a possibility that he is an agent of American intelligence 1 and also this fact 12 Mrs. Burke . And is this the reason that You gave him 13 he was not allowed to remain in the Soviet Union? 14 Mr Nosenko' The reason was that they didn t want him to 15 stay because, KGB , because they didn t consider him an interest 16 target, an interesting person who has valuable information Mrs_ Burke I know that. In fact, I remember you 17 13 saying some thing about a person would only be interesting under certain circumstances , one of which would be if they came in as 19 a tourist and they .applied a very short time be fore they arrived; 20 Mr Nosenko Oh -no 2] 22 Mrs ;; Burke . And they were an add on to , for instance 73 the tour 24 Mr Nosenko _ Right. Right Mrs _ Burke Now from what that report shows 1 it shows that 25 MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 67 TOP SECRET they why ing ================================================== Page 68 ================================================== I0P SetrET 91 Oswald received his visa in two days to come to the Soviet 2 Union _ So he would be automatically suspect , and he would be 3 automatically what you would call an interesting person _ Mr Nosenko . No , no , no . In this case, you see , Oswald 5 even didn t receive a visa in United States ; he received it passing through Europe . Mrs_ Burke Through Helsinki? Mr Nosenko_ Right , in Finland , where it's process was easier than it will 'be in the United States He simply bought_ 10 a tour and he received, managed to receive visa 11 Mrs_ Burke . Let me just ask one other: thing _ 12 Did iyou tell them any of your aside from the ideological 1 13 you wanted to defect? For instance, did you tell them 14 anything about this promotion you thought you had when you went 1S to, was it, Gorki? 16 Mr _ Nosenko Yes _ 17 Mrs Burke _ But then' you 13 Mr . Nosenko . No , I didn t tell them _ I simply said that 19 my position, because with me , it was documented , I lied. I 20 said my position was Lieutenant Colonel It wasn t true It 21 was false statement_ The same false statement was concerning 22 recall telegram when I wanted to push the defection process _ 33 Mrs _ Burke . My time is up May I just ask one 24 question? Were you upset when you didn t get your promotion 25 after they had MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 68 TP SECRET why ================================================== Page 69 ================================================== Top SecaeT 92 Mr Nosenko = No no na am I still didn t receive it. It was sent on signature You see, they are signing , not immediately when are received. Personnel Directorate gather in from all ,over: the: ' Soviet: Union _ 1 from_alleKGBs:and 5 comment on signature to the Chairman twice, three times a Year. were simply_ gathering in and didn t get enough materials . I do not know Maybe it was signed in January. But up to my leaving , nobody informed me that it was signed _ I didn t 4 wasn t rejected _ 10 The Chairman _ The time of the, gentlewoman has. expired _ 11 Mr _ Dodd? 12 Mr Dodd - Thank you Mr Chairman 13 I wonder if You might let me ask you let me start back 14 here very quickly. One of the very first questions you were 15 asked last night' by Mr. Klein, was the way Mr Klein worded 16 the question, and I will ask you to expound on it if it is a 17 correct recall on my part- 13 Mr Klein asked you or stated that you arranged for your 19 transfer to the American section 0f the KGB He used the words 20 you arranged for your transfer to that section Is that an 21 accurate statement? Did you want to be in that section? Did yqju 22 specifically ask to be in that section? 73 Mr Nosenko . No , it wasn't accurate, it wa sn t right. 24 Arrangement was done in work form_ I was working after finishinlg 25 Institute in GRU , Navy Intelligence , and being in 1952 New Year, MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 69 T0? SECRET they They ================================================== Page 70 ================================================== Top SeCRET 93 in Moscow on New Year on a short leave , I was in company where 2 it was one of my 'friends with whom I studied at the Institute = 3 Hewworkedaintthe Ministry of Foreign Affairs_ But his father_ in-law was high ranked General of MGB-,- .in those Years was 5 called KGB , and he asked me what I am doing, this General 6 I said that I am working for the Navy Intelligence 1 GRU Do you like this work? I said no , because I am not using what I received education 10 Would You like to work in MGB? I said, if it will be with the use of my disciplines 12 which I studied at the Institute, why not? That is all. And 13 in March after death of Stalin this general was appointed the i4 First Deputy Minister of MGB of Beria _ He remembered this conversation and several days after death of Stalin I was recalled 1S to MGB which was called MVD in this period of time 1 in March of 16 '53 and was assigned to Second Chief Directorate- This is what 17 13 true statement Mr Dodd When you sent to the safe house or whatever it 19 was in Geneva , in 1964, by your own admission you lied to the 20 agent there in that you stated you had received a telegram 2] 22 issuing your recall back to the Soviet Union 23 Mr Nosenko _ Right. Mr Dodd Therefore , it was ithat important that they 24 25 accept you immediately. HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 70 TOP SECRET ================================================== Page 71 ================================================== IuP SECRET 94 Did you show anyone a telegram? 2 Mr _ Nosenko . No , siryeno;"sir There wasn t any telegram 3 Mr . Dodd Did ask for a telegram? Mr Nosenko . but , sir, what happened, I started to 5 meet them in January, had passed three , four _ five six, seven days _ I am afraid of that any moment my Chief 0f the Second Chief Directorate will be returning from France Mr Dodd = I didn t ask you that, Mr _ Nosenko . My questidn to you is , were you asked whether or not you had a copy of 10 the telegram that you had received from the Soviet Union? 11 Mr Nosenko _ And I Tt if I was even asked I couldn t 12 give them because I cannot take it. It would be secret 13 cable 14 Mr Dodd - You have answered my question_ You stated last night that m and this might have been a iS 16 supposition on your part , but I am_ curious about it b4t you stateld 17 that it was your feeling that the intelligence community in 13 this country considered you a dispatched agent in 1962_ Is that something that you felt in 19622 19 Mr Nosenko _ No . It' s 20 Mx Dodd . A_ reflection back? 2 Mr Nosenko . A reflection back . No , no , sir. 22 23 Mr Dodd . You, by your own statement, again have received 24 some very rough treatment , inhuman treatment , to use your words living under spartan conditions , and I am sort of brushing over 25 H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 71 TOP SECRET they NO , ================================================== Page 72 ================================================== top SECRET 95 this very quickly, between 1964 and 1969 Certainly you 2 couldn t have been very pleased with the way you were being treated by a country that you had defected to and offered to give information to So for 2 period of that '64 , to '69 , 5 five Years, you went through a rather rough period in your life? 6 Mr Nosenko . Yes Mr Dodd - Why did you go to work for somebody who treated you like that? Mr Nosenko _ Sir, I, even was five year there, I didn 't consider that it was decision of the whole CIA I didn 't 10 consider that, A I didn t blame the whole CIA because it 1 wasn t the question decided by the whole Agency . It was 12 decided question by several persons who were I consider simply 13 in this period of time sick, mentally sick, not il1 but 14 were simply in fear, in scare, in mania as if KGB ` penetrated 15 16 everything _ Mr _ Dodd - Is it your statement to me that for five 17 years , while you were incarcerated in almost solitary confine_ 13 ment , that you thought that this was the individual acts of a 19 couple of employees of this Agency? _ 20 Mr Nosenko _ Not employees 21 Mr . Dod _ Without the approval of the very highest 22 authority in this Agency? 23 Mr Nosenko . Sir, I have seen Chief of Soviet Russia 24 Division, Mr David Murphy . He was a high ranking man_ It was 25 HI 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 72 TOP SECRET ================================================== Page 73 ================================================== Top SecRET 96 his decision, decision of Mr Angleton decision of Mr 2 Murphy and when they are coming to Director , and I know from my life. can report in the way how they will report it, and the Director will accept because they are responsible people , 5 are sitting in this place. He is not going into details , he is not going and studying, he is not going himself visiting The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired_ Mr _ Sawyer? Mr Sawyer _ First; have you received any compensation 10 for the period during:: Which you were held in jail? 1 Mr Nosenko . I received in several years later, I put 12 the question, I want to be for every year which I was 13 unlawfully: arrest, the amount of money which we kave, agreed, 14 with taken taxes and whatever American citizens are paying 15 Mr Sawyer_ Did you, that? 16 Mr Nosenko Yes , and on this sum of money I bought 17 the house. 13 Mr Sawyer _ I see 19 I will tell you what bothers me about your testimony 0 very 20 frankly . You stated that they would be" very interested in a 21 member of the American intelligence community that they could 22 even compel to defect . Here you had a willing defector, a guy 33 who said that undoubtedly that he didn t like America , and 24 that he did like Russia, and he wants to defect, and nobody 25 even interrogates him, according; to you, as to what exposure or HY 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 73 TOP SECRET they they paid get ================================================== Page 74 ================================================== Tup SECRET 9 7 experience he had He might have worked in the missile silos , 2 he might have done anything , but nobody asked him_ 1 and that he 3 lives there for a period of , a long period of time Here is a guy that is totally willing to talkz It is not like approachinl 5 somebody who doesn t want to talk to you or that might not want to talk to you= And here is a fellow who was a radar operator, experienced to some degree , and I don t know to what degree, but apparently the Russians don t know to what degree either, because nobody asked him, in a highly secret air base in Japan , 10 but they didn t ask him even about that, and it is very rare 11 to have one come 12 I have listened to Radio Free Cuba , where they air all 13 kinds of propaganda_ 8 and this, guy would have been certainly 14 good for propaganda when he loved Russia and hated the United I5 States . And I just, with those circumstances , I very frankly 16 find it almost impossible to believe that they did not 17 thoroughly interrogate him at least. 13 Mr Nosenko They never considered him an.interesting 19 target. It was known that he served in Marine Corps 20 Mr Sawyer _ What I am getting at, how did they know 21 whether he was an interesting target when they never even asked 22 Mr Nosenko . They judging by what they know about him ~3 what in questionnaire he filled and plus what found out 24 from interpreter on him He Said to interpreter, he served 25 in Marine Corps , he finished his Years of service. HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 74 TOP SECRET they ================================================== Page 75 ================================================== T0p SECRET 98 Mr _ Sawyer. But he might have been a cryptographer in the 2 Marine Corps He might have been as an enlisted man , he might have been a cryptographer and know all our codes and code me thodology that might help break codes and that sort of 5 thing, but nobody ever asked him. That is what I don 't under- stand. And I can t believe it, very frankly. Mr Nosenko I understand , sir, but I am telling you he wasn t considered interesting target, and Mr _ Sawyer . But they didn t have any facts to know 10 whether he was interesting, and here is a guy that wants to 11 talk to them 12 Mr Nosenko But the judgment made on each person to" work 13 actively against him on the basis of his questionnaire _ If 14 in questionnaire will be said he is, let' s say , professor, 15 teacher let' s say he is working for the government , any department , but for the Federal Government , or he is an officer 16 17 sure, on him will be paid attention _ Ia Mr _ Sawyer. Well, all right, we can drop that for a 19 minute But now , he got 3 visa in two days in Finland _ I happen 20 to have been in Finland four Years ago and wanted to get a 21 22 visa, a sort of a last minute decision, to go to Leningrad, andf I was told there is a minimum 0f 30 days before you can a 33 visa. NOw , to issue him a Visa in two days for Russia, that 24 29 is very unusual apparently , So they must have had some M 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 75 TOp SECRET get ================================================== Page 76 ================================================== toP SECRET 99 interest in getting him there 2 Mx Nosenko . Sir, what I know 0 there wasn t any interest 3 to get him. He managed to, get this visa 4 Mr Sawyer. All right. 5 The other thing I am curious about is when they inte rrogateld you So carefully here why someone like Oswald, a known defector and who could well have been now a Russian intelligence agent , comes back to the country, apparently CIA or FBI , or nobody paid a bit of attention to him, andilet him wander around the 10 country with a Russian wife at will. I have used up my time 12 The Chairman Okay . The time of the gentleman has 13 expired . 14 Mr _ Fithian_ IS Mr Fithian_ Thank you, Mr Chairman 16 Mr _ Nosenko , as I piece it together , there are four 17 possibilities for this Committee to believe Let me sketch 13 out what those possibilities are 19 One , that you told the truth in 1964 , but you are now 20 misleading this Committee 21 Two} that you told an untruth_in 1964 , basically your 22 statements in 1964 were not true but you are telling the truth 23 now _ 24 Three , that in fact you were dispatched here by the KGB , 25 or the Soviet Government , because of apparent but unreal MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 76 Tdp SECRET ================================================== Page 77 ================================================== Tup Segret 100 connections between the Soviets and Oswala and the assassination 2 of President Kennedy _ Obviously the USSR would need this for obvious reasons They would badly need this for all sorts of international reasons 5 And finally, the fourth option is that you were dispatched here by the Soviet Government and the KGB because there was an actual connection between the KGB and the assassinationnofs President Kennedy These are the items which I have picked up in the last 10 two days thatwould tend to lead some people to believe the last of the four or at least the third" to the last of the four M1 either that the KGB dispatched you here because they needed it 12 13 for political reasons , though they werevnot involved _ or they dispatched you here because in fact they did collaborate with 14 Oswald. I5 First, Oswald goes to Russia. You say he is rejected , but 16 they, grant him a pension, however small: 17 Second , they_ grant him the pleasures of a hunting club } 13 even though you said earlier he was mentally unbalanced , and 19 you are allowing him to use a gun _ 20 Three , they allowed hin to marry in Russia 2 Four, they gave him a job, 22 Now , in not talking about the time when you were 23 under stress and incarcerated_ but just talking about the two 24 months prior to that the FBI questioning, and the prearrest MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 77 T0p SECRET ================================================== Page 78 ================================================== TOP SECRET 101 story makes no sense_ 2 The rejection of Oswald' s offer to defect makes absolutely no sense to me Mr Sawyer has just pursued that momentarily_ I think tha can be rejected by us by reasonable people; prima facie I see no reason to accept that part-of your story whatsoever The exposition, taking you off to worry about the exposi- tion, and SO forth, was 'demonstrated a fraud No reprisals against your family: Nobody was working 10 against Oswald, you' Said yet later on you" said you had seven to eight large filesv you only read the first portion of one 12 file You said no KGB ever talked to Oswald regarding 13 letting hin defect The reason you gave uS for that was: that he 14 slashed his wrists and you concluded he was; unstable. Yet prior 15 to that discovery of his instability, you granted him a visa 16 in two days. and he asked to be permitted to defect prior to slashing his wrists , and therefore you had to make the decision 13 prior to slashing his writs , prior to knowing that he slashed 19 his wrist, that you were going to reject him. That doesn t hold:water either 20 Finally you said in your testimony American defection was 22 very rare All the more reason, if it only happens once every ~3 year or a couple of times a year, or three times between 56 and 59 , it is totally incredible to me that he would not have 24 25 been interrogated No reasonable person can believe that story HY 50955 DocId:32277209' Page 78 TOp. SECRET ================================================== Page 79 ================================================== Tu? SECRET 102 You said he was not interesting , you were not interested 2 m1 in 'him, the KGB rejected him_ Despite that, you were recruiting right and left all kinds of people:to assist in the espionage 0 operation. 5 Now , all of these 'things _ 1 Mr Nosenko , leads me to be very , very disturbed by your story because it simply just on the face of what you told uS last night and tonight , can t possibly be true In the first place, you remember too much now You remember 10 too much in the way of details after 15 years _ Therefore, I 11 have . great difficulty accepting any of your story_ 12 We as a Committee of the United States Congress are charge 13 with trying to assess what actually happened in the assassinatidn 14 of President Kennedy _ That is the central story. You have not 15 helped us very much You have confused the issue In fact, 16 by your testimony you have led at least this member to wonder 17 whether or not you are still working with the KGB 3 The Chairman_ The time of the gentleman has expired? 19 I will permit the witness to answer. 20 Mr_ Nosenko Mr Congressman said his opinion_ Do You 21 ask me any question? 22 Mr Fithian I would just like to have you tell me why I 73 shouldn t believe that you were dispatched here by the KGB 24 in the light of just; theepoints I am making , in the light of 5 the enormous differences , not in the CIA interrogation under HY 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 79 TOp SECRET ================================================== Page 80 ================================================== Tup SegRET 103 duress , but in the earlier period when you were not under that 2 kind 0f duress _ It doesn t wash with me 3 The Chairman The time of the gentleman has expired. 4 Mr Nosenko . Sir, if you want me to defend myself , I can 5 say only one thing_ I never done from the first in the United States anything directed against this country. I tried before I has come when I contacted 62 the CIA and has come in '64 , I tried to, get as much as possible information. I am the source who told concerning existence of microphones in 10 American embassy in Moscow I am the man who have given , I don t know 300 cases 12 Mr Fithian We are only concerned 13 The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired . 14 Mr Edgar _ 15 Mr Edgar_ Thank you , Mr Chairman . 16 It is very hard to foliow Mr Fithian S comments becaus 17 I would like to shift gears a little bit. BUt you indicated 13 to our Chairman that you now act as a consultant to the CIA 19 Is that your only job? 20 Mr Nosenko It is the only job 21 Mr Edgar_ In the course of acting as consultant to the 22 CIA, do you have access to talking with CIA employees from time 23 to time who contact you and who assist you and protect you and 24 give you some of the direction for your consulting? 25 Mr Nosenko . Yes HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 80 Top SECRET day ================================================== Page 81 ================================================== Iuy SetrET 104 Mr Edgar. Have you ever been in a conversation with any 2 of the agents -of the CIA about who might have been responsible 3 for having you detained on April 4th ; 21964; 4 Mr _ Nosenko . No . 5 Mr Edgar_ T 1964 _ 6 Mr Nosenko . No Mr Edgar_ You indicated earlier thought it was a man by the name of Murphy . Mr Nosenko . Murphy , Chief of Soviet, former Chief of 10 Suviet Russian Division , and Chief of Counterintelligence, former Chief of: Counterintelligence of the CIA Mr Angleton 12 because it cannot without him be decided. 13 Mr _ Edgar_ Do you know of any other KGB agents or other 14 defectors who were held in those very same conditions? 15 Mr Nosenko _ No , I do not know 16 Mr Edgar _ Were there any other prisoners held nearby 17 that you could hear or 13 Mr Nosenko . No , sir, I was in solitary absolutely 19 confinement , no prisoner , nobody I could see 20 Mr _ Edgar _ Yet you are still willing to be a consultant 21 to the CIA? 22 Mr Nosenko I am no Sir, I am consultant only on 33 the base, on my knowledge what I know about counterintelligence 24 work of the KGB _ Mr Edgar. Well, you kave suggested to the Committeelthat your statements given to the CIA in 1964 cannot be considered HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 81 TOP SECQET you ================================================== Page 82 ================================================== IvP SETRET 105 reliable because the statements were given under duress 1 and 2 prior to our recess a few moments' ago you indicated that you felt that the tapes and the FBI and the CIA interrogations of '64 , '65 , and 66 should not be considered as reliable 5 statements 6 Is that not correct? Mr Nosenko _ Yes ,' because I considered the whole arrest was unlawful without due process of law , illegal arrest, what was the finding as unlawful by Rockefeller Commission_ 10, Mr Edgar_ Thank you= You were held under those spartan conditions and you 12 indicated that those statements would have to be unreliable = 13 Now , I have three specific questions, then , to ask you 14 Have you ever told the CIA that these statements could 15 not be considered reliable? 16 Mr_ Nosenko . Sure, when we started, they change the 17 situation, they moved me from spartan conditions started to I3 talk with me as a human being, to treat me as a human being _ 19 Mr Edgar _ Did you go on a point by point correction of 20 any of those statements you previously made? Mr Nosenko . It wasn't in the form of simply returning 21 22 to document, it was case by case, whatever concerns me my 23 biography , my work, whatever cases I knew whatever cases I 24 was involved , all questions were raised by 20 , 30 times each 25 case,. when it was reevaluation of all information given me MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 82 T0p SECRET by ================================================== Page 83 ================================================== Iup SECRET 106 Mr Edgar_ And it is your testimony that after 1967 , '68 , 2 when those interrogations took place You gave accurate truthful statements? Mr Nosenko Yes , sir 8 whatever and how good I recollect , 5 at the best. 6 Mr Edgar And those statements of '67_' 68 should be 7 considered by this Committee as the absolute truth? Mr _ Nosenko _ Right_ Mr Edgar _ And no thing but the truth 10 Mr Nosenko Yes , yes , sir. Mr Edgar . And it is clear to you that all the questions 12 that were raised about Oswald were also raised in 1967 and 68? 13 Mr Nosenko . Everything was raised in this period. 14 Mr Edgar _ If, then , this Committee discovers inconsis_ 15 tencies in your statements that You made in 1967 and 68 , 16 after your incarceration and the illegal period that you 17 talk about, if we find inconsistencies between that statement 13 and the statements you gave uS last night and tonight, which 19 should we believe? 20 Mr Nosenko Sir, if you must believe not you must 21 it is up to you what you believe But , sir, let' s say was read 22 to me by Mr Klein a question , that I said when I said concerning 73 Oswald , I did not mention physical surveillance It is a big 24 operation. It is nothing big in the KGB to under surveil- 25 lance Soviet or foreigner, or to control telephone conversationsi M# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 83 TOP SECRET put ================================================== Page 84 ================================================== 10p #ECRET 107 or correspondence - I could maybe some thing miss You see when I mentioning _ I do not have such a brilliant, brilliant mind that immediately like photographic memory , immediately_ return word and word- I simply was describing that it wasn t 5 active work , that there wasn t planned recruitment , there wasn t planned approachment , contact There was type of 7 passive work which is called in KGB to watch him and what is it agents control of correspondence and explaining this , I simply , I could miss that he was under surveillance 10 You can return to this and tell me , uh-huh , you told in '67 11 you didn t mention that he was under surveillance It is not 12 a contradiction 13 The Chairman_ The time of the gentleman has expired. 14 Mr Nosenko in reply to Mr Sawyer S question you 15 indicated you were for the period of time that you were 16 under arrest, that it was a lump sum payment I suppose? 17 Mr Nosenko . Yes , sir. Ia The Chairman What amount of money was that? 19 Mr Nosenko Something about , oh , about s80 , 000 : 20 The Chairman About s80 , 000? 2 Mr Nosenko Yes 22 The Chairman Any other sum in addition to that were 23 you paid? 24 Mr Nosenko . I' think I received about 815,000 'or 820,000 28 when I started on ny own to live, to buy furniture I received_ MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 84 ToP SecReT paid ================================================== Page 85 ================================================== Iur JttaeT 108 yes , in the beginning , in 6 9 , in April But this lump I nece jveda in 70 , 71_ 71 _ The Chairman So that the record is clear, you received 880 , 000 for the period of time' you were under arrest 5 Mr Nosenko _ Right. The Chairman In order get started again, you Ve re given an additional S15,000 , and that was in 1969 _ Mr Nosenko Right. The Chairman Since 1969 , to the present time 0 have 10 wreceiived: $35 , 000 Mr Nosenko . No , no , no , sir 12 The Chairman _ Would you 13 Mr Nosenko They started_ when they released me they 14 started to pay me in the beginning s16 , 000 . Then they raised 15 each Year , 82000 , two and a half thousand were raises I only 16 received $35 , 000 this year, 78 from October of 77 , approxi- 17 mately . 13 The Chairman From October 77 to the present' time you 19 received $35, 000 20 Mr Nosenko Right 21 The Chairman Can You give us some indication of how many 22 days you have worked during 1978? 33 Mr Nosenko Well, I am working at home besides coming 24 here when they needme , at least twice a month;eand spending 25 a week approximately, Besides trave ling when:they. are HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 85 TOp SECRET to you ================================================== Page 86 ================================================== Iup Wetm| 109 sending me the last few Years abroad to talk with friendly 2 intelligence services _ I am also working at home on my own 3 I am studying Soviet periodicals , Soviet magazines 1 Soviet newspapers _ I am making certain researches 0 I am trying not to 5 lose what is going on , what changes taking place in policy. 6 The Chairman Would it be fair to say that you sort 0f 7 set your time and that no one else sets your time? Mr Nosenko When I am out of this area , yes , at home I am myself setting time 10 The Chairman - And during the last Year_ how many weeks 11 would you say you have spent here at the Agency? 12 Mr _ Nosenko . Not at the Agency . They are meeting me in 13 other places I am very rare visiting this place _ only if they 14 invite me for a lecture or about KGB counterintelligence But I5 I am meeting them when I am in this area; under certain 16 conditions , in certain places where they need me 17 Well one monthy twice I am coming- Let' s say I am 13 spending about 12 , 13 days a month here , it can be in some 19 cases seven , eight days a month , but in main the last period of time I am coming the last Years , I am coming almost 20 21 twice a month _ 22 The Chairman For how long? Mr Nosenko . For a week five, six days 23 24 The Chairamn My time has expired . 25 Mr Preyer? HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 86 TO? SECRET ================================================== Page 87 ================================================== Iup SegreT 110 Mr Preyer. Mr Nosenko your tes timony has been considere] 2 3 major piece 'of evidence and was SO: considered by the Warren 3 Commission as rebutting any Russian connection with the assassi- nation of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I think the part of your 5 testimony that we are concerned with , not So much the 'question about any inconsistencies in it, but are you right on the big question, namely, was Lee Harvey Oswald a KGB agent? I want to mention, I have been a little surprised by your tes timony , bythe 'gaps in your knowledge of Oswald, and really 10 how little You knew about him For example:, when he went to I1 Minsk, he was tranferred out of your oversight , I take it, and 12 as I understood you , you did not know he was married until 13 later on , and did not know he had gone back to the United 14 States I5 Mr Nosenko Mr Congressman, if I was staying and }6 work:ing 6.0 and 61 period in the same Seventh Department which 17 sent file on Oswald in Minsk, I would Iknow, but I was working 13 in First American Department _ 19 Mr Preyer Right. Now , I am not questioning you about 20 that_ The question I wonder;, that that brings to my mind is, 21 if Oswaldhad been a KGB agent , are You certain you would have 22 Iknown it? In other words if you didn t even know he was 23 married, didn t even know he had gone to the United States , 24 couldn t he have been a KGB agent in that period without your 25 knowledge , or are you certain M# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 87 Top SECRET key ================================================== Page 88 ================================================== Iur JETRET ll1 Mr Nosenko No ; I couldn t,you are absolutely right, I 2 couldn t know = But in;' 63 when happened assassination of the President, when it was mentioned that Oswald shot the President , when it start, demanded the file back from Minsk 5 when started conversation with Minsk, started in KGB_ investi- gation 1 . detailed approach This is what Te Mr Preyer_ So you convinced that seeing the first section_ Mr Nosenko . Seeing the first section in which the most important material in the whole file will be this in first 10 section of the first volume Mr Preyer Were the rest of the sections of. that file, 12 incidentally , wire telephone taps? 13 Mr Nosenko It will be information from agents in 14 second part_ In third part will be from" telephone conversa- 15 tions, from surveillance In fourth part _ { photocopies 0f letters , 16 different mail, when they checking_ Soviet connections Soviet 17 friends of Oswald: 13 Mr Preyer_ Well, on this question of your knowle 19 of Oswald and being in position to know about him , you knew about 20 the cablegram from Mexico yet you did not know he had gone back 21 to the United States Is that because you had moved tdo)-= 22 Mr Nosenko Again, I returned in Seventh Department 33 and I was working 62 , 63 , up to '64 in Seventh Department 24 and the 'cablegram has come in Seventh Department. Seventh 25 Department was started against Oswald in 59 MY 50955 DocId:32277209. Page 88 TOP SECRET dge ================================================== Page 89 ================================================== iuk Sttrli 112 Mr Preyer. Have ou read a lot about the Oswald case 2 in recent Years? 3 Mr Nosenko . Well , I read several books , what appeared . I only didn t read the last book which was written about Marina 5 Oswald by Mrs Priscilla Johnson Why? Because I knew that I would appear here , that the staff of your your staff will be talking with me I didn t wanted some thing to get M I can, you know _ mix what I knew and some thing to use what I got from the book 10 Mr Preyer. I just wondered if you had read about the 11 Mexican cable, and perhaps through the years may have been 12 Mr Nosenko _ No , I never have seen that it was mentioned 13 Mexican cable I have seen that he visited Mexico , in Mexico 14 visited Soviet and Cuban embassies _ This I have seen in books , IS this fact. 16 Mr Preyer. If I have got one more moment , Mr Chairman , 17 to change the subject, one of the things that struck me is I3 that when you defected , as Mrs Burke mentioned _ in Geneva 0 19 in 1964 , very shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, I get the impression that the CIA or American forces to whom you 20 defected, did not have much to say about the assassination or 21 22 was not Mr Nosenko are I mentioned must be Oswald, the 13 24 asked _ But they were asking different , whatever cases I can 25 immediately give them_ names , when recruited, his position, W 50955 DocId.32277209 Page 89 TOP SECRET They ================================================== Page 90 ================================================== Top SECRET 113 from what country,, this they were interested , as much as possible 2 to take this type of information. They asked me about Oswald _ 3 I told them what I knew 4 The Chairman The time of the gentleman has expired _ 5 Mr Devine Mr Devine I don 't want to know where you live, but 6 do you reside in the general area 0f the nation capital? 8 Mr _ Nosenko _ I was living in this area up to 19 middle of 1973 , but FBI gentlemen I didn t mention I also meeting FBI people when I am here , not only CIA, but they are not paying 10 mejanything_ FBI people inform me that they have information that KGB trying to locate me Then it happened in the area 12 where I was living in Maryland up to 1973 , I was in a 13 shopping center; and on me was coming a Soviet from KGB I kne 14 his face, and this whole I immediately reported this and 1S we decided that for me better to move from the area where 16 Soviet diplomats 1 KGB officer working under cover of diplomats 17 are freely traveling and can spot me 13 Mr _ Devine That person didn t recognize you? 19 Mr Nosenko . I immediately turned and went , turned my back 20 and went in another direction 21 Mr Devine Have you been contacted or in touch with 22 anyone from the Soviet Embassy here in Washignton? ~3 Mr _ Nosenko _ Only in 1964 the Soviet Embassy in 24 Washington demanded to see me after defection. 2; MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 90 TOP SECRET 's ================================================== Page 91 ================================================== Twp SECRET 114 Mr Devine Did you see them? 2 Mr Nosenko . Yes , in the State Department , in presence of American diplomats , I have seen for five , say seven minutes Consul from Soviet Embassy and interpreter , another 5 diplomat _ Mr Devine What did want with You? Mr Nosenko _ They ask me how: could I do it, and do I understand the importance of this thing, that I defected from the country, and I said, gentlemen , nobody pushed me on this 10 question, it is absolutely mY own decision, and decision of freel will, which I made long ago , and without return Then they 12 old me now we know how to treat you, and what do you think 13 about your Soviet citizenship_ 14 I said, it's automatically, : I am rejecting it: I do 15 not need. And on this I finished conversation 16 Mr Devine _ They made no threats of reprisals against 17 your family back there? 13 Mr Nosenko No , no later only, Mr Congressman , 19 later sent two letters one from wife and another from 20 my mother = These letters were delivered by then They visite 21 American embassy in Moscow and had left these two letters 22 These letters were sent by American embassy in Moscow to 23 State Department, State Department had given to CIA, CIA had 24 given me these letters I answered one short note that my 25 decision is final 1 decision ideological and in spite of all HM 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 91 TOp SECRET they any They they ================================================== Page 92 ================================================== to? SECRET 115 my love to the family, and in spite of my respect to the 2 memory of the father, I can repeat that if he was alive I would 3 also would do the same , that is all Mr Devine Ge tting back to one of Mr Stoke S questions 5 about the amount of money paid to you for your years of incarceration, the fact that they gave s15,000 or s20 ,000 which you used for furniture and SO forth, were there any strings tied to either of those funds , the $80 , 000 or the subse quent amount? Mr Nosenko _ No , sir no Mr Devine_ That you would not contact the pressvor 12 anybody else about this?' Mr Nosenko No' , it never was mentioned 0 never 13 i4 Mr Devine No strings attached? Mr_ Nosenko No 1S 16 Mr Devine Finally, do you have any knowledge of any connection with Oswald and the assassination of President 17 13 Kennedy? Mr Nosenko . No , sir. 19 Mr Devine From your connections in the KGB at that time 20 Mr Nosenko Whatever I said, nothing more I do not 2 know anything_ 22 The' Chairman The time of the, gentleman has expired _ 73 Mrs Burke 24 Mrs Burke I have just a few random questions You 25 HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 92 TOP SECRET you ================================================== Page 93 ================================================== i up SECRET 116 mentioned Priscilla Johnson S book Did:you by any chance while you were working in the American tourist area,_ did you have any occasion to investigate her coming to Russia or did she come during any of that time as a student? 5 Mr Nosenko Priscilla Johnson? 6 Mrs Burke Yes Mr Nosenko _ yes , her name she was a correspondent in Moscow working, and KGB didn t like her dispatches and they 9 made very, very rude operations against her They 10 Mrs_ Burke What did they do 11 Mr Nosenko Hih? 12 Mrs _ Burke What did do to her? 13 Mr Nosenko . Well , they wanted to get rid of her from the 14 Soviet Union. They didn t see possibility to recruit her. IS didn t see any possibility to find or to create compromising 16 situation They didn t like her dispatches which they were 17 anti-Soviet. Then they decided to get rid of her , and they ia3 made such an operation in restaurant where she had dinner in 19 evening _ They put drugs in her liquor, which she was drinking, 20 wine:: or vodka or whatever it would be , and she was absolutely 21 drunk And she was 'delivered in local regional 1 one `of the 22 regional little ~t I it's not clinic, it is where they deliver 73 drunks to spend night And they put her there and made photo 24 pictures of her being drunk and other women drunk ` laying there 25 and published an article and put even a picture_ And surely MW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 93 TO? SECRET Why , they Thex ================================================== Page 94 ================================================== Iur SEERET 117 she was immediately recalled by her agency or her newspapers for 2 which she was working _ 3 Mrs _ Burke Do you think that is the wrong Priscilla Johnson? Mr Edgar- If the gentlewoman would yield, are you sure that You are talking about the same person? Mr Nosenko Priscilla Johnson , yes; this correspondent_ $ Yes . Mrs Burke Let me ask you one other question 10 When she was there 1 did she interview Oswald? 1 Mr Nosenko I know it is nOw reading here the books _ I 12 didn t know that she interviewed_ I only found at it with 13 living in the United States , with reading books 14 Mrs Burke That she: interviewed him That didn t show IS in your file? 16 Mr _ Nosenko . I didn t read her book t m this is what in 17 some other books mentioned that she had interviewed him_ 13 Mrs. Burke Let me ask again about Oswald in Minsk, and 19 first of all, can American tourists go to Minsk easily? 20 Mr . Nosenko . Minsk is open city, yes 21 Mrs _ Burke It is an open city now . Was it an open 22 ci then? 13 Mr Nosenko _ Yes 24 Mrs Burke And when he was there_ 1 of course, I realize 25 that you don't know and you did not keep up with what he was MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 94 TOP SECRET ty ================================================== Page 95 ================================================== Tu? SECRET 118 doing there 1 but in reading that file, in the first few 2 pages or anything , did you notice anything in terms of his contacts with Americans , or did you notice anything at all that was extrardoinary about him? 5 Mr Nosenko = No , there wasn t. For the whole his period of time there wasn t found any indicatidn on suspicion , 7 suspicious meetings or anything suspicion conce rning his contacts with Americans Mrs _ Burke Let me Y As I understand it, it was fairly 10 routine that everyone S phone' would be tapped , So that that was not M1 Mr Nosenko . Yes 12 Mrs Burke 4 your information that that would be 13 14 nothing unusual You know, there is one thing that is bothering me and 15 that is the inconsistency and the greater detail that is presen 16 today than in your_ earlier statements 17 Could you give us an explanation of why there is more de- 13 tail today? 19 For instance, in your earlier statements I noticed you 20 refer to the interpreter as a tourist, the tourist de 1 as 21 just. a tourist de or an interpreter? Today you referred 22 by name to that person. And again , the two psychiatrists 73 Mr Nosenko . I don t know: even now name of this inter_ 24 preter. I do not remember name 29 HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 95 TOP SECRET gui gui ================================================== Page 96 ================================================== IuF Setret 119 Mrs Burke _ I see . I thought 2 Mr Nosenko Interpreter , I never mentioned . 3 Mrs Burke You never mentioned the interpreter? Mr Nosenko . No I do not remember her name { Mrs _ Burke It was just this officer Rastrusin? Mr Nosenko Officer, yes . 6 Mrs Burke He was Dalb but he was the one that found wasn' t he the one that found Oswald? Mr Nosenko _ No , this is the officer who reported about him_ 10 Mrs Burke He reported it, b ut he didn'+ find him? Mr Nosenko . No , no , interpreter found him with 12 administration of the hatel where Oswald was staying _ 13 Mrs _ Burke Oh I see . 14 Mr Nosenko_ You see , interpreter has :come in the 1S morning to take him or has come to take him to city, to show 16 him , as interpreter on a guide_ i on a tour And she was waiting 17 about 20 , 25 , 30 minutes and was concerned _ 13 The Chairman. Time is up . One more 19 Mrs _ Burke All right , just one more question- 20 When Oswald arrived, then , he didn t ~speak very much 21 Russian, is that right? 22 Mr Nosenko No Ididn t hear that he spoke in Russian 13 Mrs Burke I see Were there any notations at all in the 24 file 5 what is your understanding of his fluency in Russian 25 H# 50955' DocId:32277209 Page 96 TOP SECRET ================================================== Page 97 ================================================== Tvp Jegret 120 during the time of his 'stay? 2 Mr Nosenko . Well , "during time of his stay surely he 3 started a little bit to talk, but it wasn't very, it wasn t good Russian_ It wasn t even 5 The Chairman_ The time of the, gentlewoman has expired_ 6 Mrs Burke Thank you 7 The Chairman Mr Dodd _ 8 Mr Dodd . Thank you; Mr . Chairman I would like to just pick up on that line of questioning _ 10 if I could , with You , Mr Nosenko 11 Correct me if I am wrong , but as I understand it, Oswald, 12 you were aware of Oswald' s 'desire to defect There was a 13 decision, and in fact he was informed through his Intourist 14 guide that his request had been rejected _ 15 Isx-thatccorrectsso_far? 16 Mr Nosenko Is in general, but it wasn t in this ways 17 told to him_ It was in so-called, you know soft manner It i3 was explained to him by through Intourist 19 Mr Dodd _ That he would have to go through his embassy? 20 Mr Nosenko . Yes 0 that Intourist not dealing with this 21 question. He must go through this, this_ this procedures 22 Mr Dodd = 33 Now 1 you , at the time of this, of Oswald S request , you 24 were working in the Seventh' Department of the Second Directorate 25 which was involved with tourism? H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 97 TOp SECRET Okay . ================================================== Page 98 ================================================== tup SECRET 121 Mr Nosenko Right. 2 Mr Dodd Could You tell: me what would be' the normal operating procedures within the Soviet Union if a tourist were 'involved , say , in a car accident with an Intourist 5 de a Frenchman was involved in a car accident _ Assuming it was not his fault, someone hit him, what happens? Do notify imme= diately the French Embassy , what steps do take in order to deal with that individual? Mr _ Nosenko . I would assume sir , that he will be , 10 sure he immediately will be taken in polyclinic, will be informeld his embassy_ 12 Mr DDodd Those kind of steps 13 Mr Nosenko Right . 14 Mr Dodd . If you had made a decision that iOswald should 15 not be accepted in the Soviet Union, and if You find him in 16 his room with his wrist slit, why don t then contact the 17 American Embassy and notify them that you have an American on 13 your hands who just tried to kill himself? 19 Mr Nosenko Sir , he wasn' t an employee of American 20 mbassy . 21 Mr Dodd = He was a tourist, though 22 Mr Nosenko _ A tourist_ ~3 Mr Dodd _ And I just 'asked you about a Frenchman who might 24 e a tourist and get in a car accident , and you said you would 25 iake him to the hospital_ 1 you would notify the embassy. HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 98 ToP SECRET Okay _ gui Say they they you Why ================================================== Page 99 ================================================== Tup SetRET 122 don t you take Mr Oswald to the hospital and notify the 2 American embassy? 3 Mr Nosenko Nobody knew that he would cut wrist: 4 Mr Dodd _ No , but you found him with his wrist cut 5 Mr Nosenko Right . He was delivered in hospital 6 Mr Dodd didn t you notify the American embassy? Mr _ Nosenko He wasn t dying , he wasn t serious they made transfusion and put stitches It is I am telling what I think it was 10 Mr Dodd = You understand my problem here You have someone who you don t want to accept him_ You have already 12 made a decision that he shouldn t be allowed to defect. You 13 walk into his room and find him with his wrist slit, it would 14 seem to me that this guy has already indicated just by that act 15 alone that he is not playing with a full deck of cards , and 16 you decide then that you are going to accept him because you 17 are worried that it might cause some embarrassment after Camp 18 David _ 19 Mr _ Nosenko . No _ But the question to inform the . Embassy 20 it must be passing through such stage Intourist itself canno 21 contact the American Embassy_ 22 Mr Dodd = No , obviously. 23 Mr Nosenko No They must contact their Minister of 24 Foreign Trade which in its turn putting question to Ministry 25 Foreign Affairs, and Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet MY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 99 TOp SECRET Why why got ================================================== Page 100 ================================================== tup SECRET 123 Union can contact the embassy. 2 Mr Doald . LEt me jump onto some thing else: quickly in the 3 time we ve got . 4 You knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine? 5 Mr Nosenko. Yes 6 Mr Dodd _ You knew your answer to Mrs Burke S question 7 a minute ago that Oswald had a student S knowledge of Russian? 3 Mr Nosenko When he was living in Minsk, not before, 9 before he has come No 10 Mr _ Dodd You didn t know that? 11 Mr Nosenko . No , when he was living in Minsk , When he 12 was in daily contact with Soviets working at the plant and 13 having friends . 14 Mr Dodd . Did you know that he had been a student of IS Marxism? 16 Mr . Nosenko . No 17 Mr Dodd Did you know that he had, given the T . S. 13 embassy his notice to defect? 19 Mr Nosenko . No . I know that he visited embassy and 20 after was , he was told that he will be allowed to stay, after 21 this.' 22 Mr Dodd . You were not aware at that time that he con- 73 tacted through Intourist and eventually your @ffice and made 24 it known that he intended to defect or wanted to defect, you 25 were not aware or your department was not aware that he had HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 100 To? SECRET bY' ================================================== Page 101 ================================================== Top SECRET 124 already notified the American embassy that he intended to 2 defect? 3 Mr Nosenko No , no , no ,. sir. 4 Mr Doda You were not 'aware of that_ 5 Mr Nosenko No _ He wasn t under surveillance We didn t know When he was going: alone without interpter , we didn t know Mr Dodd I didn t ask you how you know I just asked you whether or not he didn t tell you that? 10 Mr Nosenko No Nobody from KGB talked with him. The Chairman The time of the gentleman has expired _ 12 Mr _ Sawyer? 13 Mr Sawyer_ When Congressman Devine asked you how you 14 knew your family was okay or that they hadn t invoked any 15 reprisals, I didn t the answer 16 Mr Nosenko . Sir, I asked Mr Solie in '69 , 70 , once 17 I asked , anything about my family? I3 Mr Sawyer Mr who? 19 Mr Nosenko Mr Bruce Solie CIA officer who was in 20 contact with me , '69 , 70 He answered me that they are all right, everything okay. But he didn t went in any detail 22 and I never returned more to this question. But there is another ~3 point, sir. Besides the father S position 1 after he died , she 24 was receiving, she received pension , and besides that, for 25 the years H 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 101 TOP SECRET get ================================================== Page 102 ================================================== Iup SetrET 125 Mr Sawyer _ How did you know she died? 2 Mr Nosenko Father died _ 1 I said. Father died in 1956 = 3 After father S death she received a pension_ 4 Mr Sawyer . I understand _ You went through that before 5 I noticed here though when he slashed his wrist, the psychiatric examination report here by the doctor says the patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian, SO he must have spoken Russian you know , to whatever degree , when he went there I thought you said you were always 10 interested in someone who can_ speak Russian or has studied anything Russian_ Mr Nosenko _ Who specializes in any field of Russia, 12 13 who will be working for the United States government . Mr Sawyer. But here is a guy at that time, when he first 14 came there , within a matter of days after, the doctor says the 15 patient apparently understands the. questions asked in Russian 16 Mr Nosenko Sir 4 17 Mr Sawyer. That would have keyed interest right there 13 wouldn t it? 19 Mr . Nosenko . Sir, if We knew that he studied in Columbia 20 University , in Yale University 2 Mr Sawyer_ Well 0 it says right 22 Mr Nosenko _ In Russian Institute 23 Mr Sawyer. It says on the report , this was on the 2lst 24 or the 23rd or 25th of October 8 a week after he arrived, it 25 H# 50955 DocId:32277209 102 TOP SECRET Page ================================================== Page 103 ================================================== Idp SECRET 126 says the patient apparently: understands the questions asked 2 in Russian _ So You knew he spoke Russian at that time And yetl 3 that was one of your criteria 4 Mr; Nosenko?& :Well; sir- 71 OW 5 Mr Sawyer. Something else I am a little curious about_ Apparently , coming here , wanting to defect , wan ting to leave America , wanting Russia, here is a guy that if he didn t know anything would be: apparently capable of going back to the United States at the behest 'of KGB in areas of the country that 10 Russian diplomats and SO forth , KGB people weren '+ allowed to and dig up information for them and come back Here is a guy 12 you didn't have to threaten, he volunteers And it seems strange 13 you wouldn 't talk to him or be interested in him just from that 14 point of view. 1S And how O and another thing that greatly bothers me , 16 how did you know that he , being in the Marines , you knew that, 17 but how did you know he wasn t a cryptographer or how did 13 you know he wasn t stationed in the Office of the Joint Chiefs 19 of Staff as a guard or as a messenger or a clerk, or that he 20 worked with U-2s , which apparently he did_ Why would the KGB 21 not at least find these 'things out, with a guy that wants to '22 go to Russia, wants to be a Russian? 73 Mr Nosenko _ Sir, I only can repeat You , when on him was 24 received the first information about his arrival 1 checkup was 25 made on him _ There wasn t any existing material in KGB any H 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 103 TOP SECRET ================================================== Page 104 ================================================== Iup SECRET 127 knowledge about him He never was before in the Soviet Union . 2 In judging by the question 3 Mr Sawyer _ weren t they asking, wouldn t they 4 ask, that' s the question Why wouldn t they ask? 5 Mr Nosenko They are not 6 Mr Sawyer_ Apparently they knew he could speak Russian 7 Mr Nosenko . asking Americans approaching _ 3 Judging by the 'questionnaire, they decided, the KGB decidel Seventh Department , he is not an interesting target. 10 Mr Sawyer _ Well why would a person like this not even 11 be interesting for some thing like the Tokyo Rose on some king of propaganda program where he could say how bad things were 12 13 in the United States , and why he didn t want to stay theree anymore and howgreat they were in Russia, like these 14 15 propagandists do? Mr Nosenko . Sir, I am telling you why it was 'decided , 16 and how KGB was thinking about him_ 17 Mr Sawyer . I yield back the balance of my time 13 The Chairman The time of the gentleman has expired_ 19 Mr: Fithiana 20 Mr Fithian. Mr Chairman , I just now got this report_ I wonder if I could let Mr Edgar_ go ahead of me? 22 The Chairman The Chair will recognize Mr Edgar _ 73 Mr Edgar_ Thank you , Mr Chairman 24 I have a series of questions which I hope most of which 25 HM 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 104 TO? SECRET why Why ================================================== Page 105 ================================================== ToP SECRET 128 will be Yes and no kinds of questions 2 Did you conduct in the KGB a program to. compromise and 3 recruit journalists? Mr Nosenko = I was working, when I started to work in the 5 KGB in 1953 _ the first year I was working against American 6 correspondents Mr Edgar _ But 'the KGB , not you personally , but the KGB did have a policy of going against journalists and trying to compromise them , yes or no?: 10 Mx Nosenko . Trying to recruit or compromise them _ Mr Edgar . Did they censor all the journalists notes 12 that they could gather from the journalists? Did they censor 13 the notes before they allowed the story to go out? 14 Mr _ Nosenko - Yes _ sir. Mr Edgar _ Priscilla Johnson interviewed Oswala on the 15 15th of November , 1959 Would the KGB have looked at her 16 17 notes from that interview? 13 Mr . Nosenko . Sir, they re censored not by the KGB but there is special rot it is government organization was censoring 19 this_ Some materials are coming to the KGB some are not 20 21 coming Mr Edgar_ Well , she reveals in her article that he was 22 Marxist, that Oswald was a Marxist and a,Marine Corps radar 73 man It would seem to: me the KGB would have discovered that 24 25 in November of 19591 HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 105 TOp SECRET ================================================== Page 106 ================================================== Tp SECRET 129 Mr Nosenko 'Sir, I didn t know this in those days . Mr Edgar_ Do you know a correspondent by the name .0 € Artenee Mosby?? Mr Nosenko . Yes , I heard such a_ name Mosby , a woman 5 who was a correspondent 6 Mr _ Edgar_ In the earlier questioning of Congresswoman 7 Burke _ you were not confusing WArlene Mosby with the treatment of Priscilla Johnson? Mr Nosenko think it was Priscilla Johnson , the case 10 which I described 1 think SQ . I think SO , it was Priscilla Johnson 12 Mr Edgar_ How do you know? 13 Mr Nosenko . What I heard from colleagues who were in 14 KGB , who were working against correspondents _ 15 Mr Edgar . But you are not absolutely clear? 16 Mr Nosenko . And then there was an article in 17 Mr Edgar You are not absolutely 13 Mr Nosenko . In literary newspaper I think it was,, not 19 in Pravad, Izvestia but in Literary Gazette 20 Mr Edgar. But you are not absolutely certain? 21 Mr Nosenko . No . I think it was Priscilla JOhnson , as 22 I said_ 13 Mx: Edgar _ But it could have been someone else 24 Mr Nosenko _ An American correspondent, woman 25 Mr Edgar _ Are you certain that after 1967 you sat down H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page_ 106 TO? SECRET ================================================== Page 107 ================================================== Top SECRET 130 with the CIA and corrected your earlier statements about Oswald , 2 yes or 3 Mr _ Nosenko . Yes , sir. 4 Mr Edgar. We have a few pages 0f written testimony 1 5 some three pages that you gave and in fact, in the beginning 1 part of that testimony , you indicate that you don t want to go 8 through it again because your earlier testimony will stand for 1 itselfs I am paraphrasing what you said_ 8 Were the notes and the recordsings .of those corrections 10 made and kept by the CIA? 1 Mr NOsenko . Sir, Mr Bruce Solie talking with me every day 12 for a period from the end of '67 , the whole 68 , 1968 , '69 every 1 13 conversation he was recording. But he never has come and showed 14 his notes , transcriptions or anything _ He was returning to 1 15 every case, to every aspect by 20 , 25 , 30 times 6 16 Mr Edgar _ But specifically on the Oswald case, would it 17 be correct in our assuming that it was more than three pages of [ 18 notes on specifically Lee Harvey Oswald after 1967? E 19 8 Mr Nosenko If he was raising questions concerning also 20 Lee Harvey Oswald_ 21 MR . Edgar. We have some information that Bruce Solie 22 Mr. Nosenko . Yes , Mr Solie_ 23 Mr Edgar _ Stated in a deposition that there is nothing on 24 Oswald other than the three pages _ 25 Mr _ Nogenko I cannot say how many pages . I know TLoeesoR KfoREsl REPORTING COMPANY INC. HY 50955 DocId:32277209' Page 107 no? only ================================================== Page 108 ================================================== TOP SECRET 131 that he was passing through all cases , all questions 1 with me 2 for the period almost two Years. 3 Mr Edgar _ Who other than Bruce Solie did you talk to about 4 correcting your earlier statements? 5 Mr Nosenko . I wasn't correcting them _ They were correcting 1 6 were talking returning back to every case= { 7 Mr Edgar _ One final question 1 8 Mr _ Nosenko = And also besides Mr Solie, were people coming 8 from FBI with cases in which were: interested for them 10 Mr Edgar _ One final question_ You stopped our hearing 7 1 about an hour ago and were concerned about our playing the tape 12 and bringing up old memories , and I respect the fact that You are 1 13 very patriotic in coming before this Committee and helping uS 14 Would you be willing to sit down with our staff and go I 15 through a series of written questions which outline specifically 16 for you the contradictions of your 1964 , '65 , '66 and early '67 6 17 timeframe , with the statements that you made, in '67 , '68 and L 18 '78 , and indicate in a yes-no manner which statement , laid side E 19 side, is true and which statement is false? 8 20 Mr Nosenko . If it is the wish of the Committee , sures. 21 Mr Edgar Thank You, Mr . Chairman_ 22 The Chairman _ The time of the gentleman has expired_ 23 Mr Fithian? 24 Mr Fithian_ Mr Nosenko do you remember when it was that the 25 FBI first interviewed vou n 'Ewald? TUE Seuhe? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY = INC. HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 108 they by ================================================== Page 109 ================================================== 132 T_P SESRET Mr Nosenko . Sir, I do not remember dates , but Mr Fithian_ It was: between February and April? 3 Mr Nosenko Right, right_ 4 Mr Fithian_ The information we have is that it was early March , the first week in March Is that about right?_ 5 1 Now haveryou talked to the FBI about that testimony at any 6 8 7 time since then? 1 Mr Nosenko Gentlemen , on many many times I have 'seen 8 8 FBI , many , many questions raised_ I cannot J about this testi_ mony , no , no 10 7 Mr _ Fithian_ About the Oswald testimony? Mr Nosenko About Oswald were 'asked questions , but not about 12 1 this testimony I do not remember about this testimony _ 13 Mr Fithian. My question is , there is a written transcript 14 1 summary of your testimony to the FBI taken on March Sth , 1964 . 15 Mr Nosenko . Right. 16 6 Mr Fithian: My question is , have you at any time since 17 L then visisted with the FBI about this testimony? 18 E Mr Nosenko._ No , sir, no , sir 19 8 Mr Fithian Now , next, when what is your understanding 20 as to when Oswald first offered to defect, when you first knew 21 when the KGB first knew he was interested in defecting? 22 Mr Nosenko : I cannot give you a date. 23 Mr Fithian All right. 24 Well , he filled out an application 25 ~iRorREPorKT COMPANY, INC. HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 109 ================================================== Page 110 ================================================== Top SECRET 133 Mr Nosenko No 8 no , no application , in oral form He 2 told the interpreter in oral form. 3 Mr _ Fithian_ This was the Intourist? 4 Mr Nosenko _ Interpreter of the Intouristv 5 Mr Fithian_ And then the Intourist came to the KGB? ] 6 Mr Nosenko Right, and it immediately was informed to KGB 8 7 that this American applies, wants to said to interpreter. 1 8 Mr Fithian. And then you reviewed the file? 8 Mr Nosenko . It was several pieces of pages what we had on 10 him. It wasn t even file 7 1 Mr Fithian- But you reviewed whatever applications 12 Mr Nosenko . Right. No it wasn t application to stay . He ir 1 13 oral form told the interpreter that he wants to stay Soviet 14 Union. 1 15 Mr Fithian_ You reviewed_ the pages that he had filled out 16 for the visa and any other sheets that you had? 6 17 Mr Nosenko . He didn t A yes , these documents , yes 0 for I 18 the visa , questionnaire and F 19 Mr Fithian. Yes_ What I am trying to get at is what did 8 20 you have in front of you physically_ knowledgeably about Oswald? 21 Mr NOsenko What I remember it was it was several pages 22 only ; was questionnaire, was form of document from Intourist 23 received how long his tour and how many days _ There was checks 24 of Oswald in archives of KGB to forms There was information fromi 25 Intourist who work #i T#PYECRET ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. HI 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 110 stay, ================================================== Page 111 ================================================== TOp SECRET 134 Mr _ Fithian. All right. Let me just stop you here Mr _ Nosenko . Yes . 2 Mr . Fithian. The forms in there the KGB were filled out 3 based on what information? Mr Nosenko _ On his name , what he supplied; who he is, when ] he was asking visa 6 { Mr Fithian. But they conducted no check , no search? 7 1 Mr Nosenko . It is in the archives of KGB , if he ever was 8 8 in Soviet Union 1 on him there will be something. If he wasn 't in Soviet Union but he was known to intelligence service 10 1 Mr Fithian_ But you didn t have any record on that_ Mr Nosenko . Nothing_ 12 1 Mr _ Fithian_ And so the final question is that the only 13 thing that you had to judge that he was an uninteresting subject 14 1 15 was what he had told the Intourist guide? Mr Nosenko _ Right _ 16 5 Mr Fithian. That is the only substantive thing? 17 L Mr Nosenko _ Yes , sir, and his questionnaire for who he 18 E is, his name , whatever he filled about himself That 's all_ 19 8 The Chairman_ The time of the gentleman has expired. 20 The Chair has one additional request from one member , for 21 one additional question. 22 23 Mr Sawyer? Mr Sawyer. I just have one additional question, and that is 24 the s80 , 000 you got for compensation and the s15,000 or 820 ,000 25 ADARJONRERORMNEcT DMPANY INC. HI 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 111 by ================================================== Page 112 ================================================== 135 ToP SECRET you , got later, that was net money after whatever taxes or whatever it was ' Mr Nosenko. Yes , after all taxes were taken 4 Mr Sawyer_ Thank you Mr Dodd - Mr Chairman? 5 ] The Chairman Mr Dodd? 6 { Mr Dodd . I just wondered for the record, I wondered if, 7 1 Mr Nosenko 1 you could tell us when you arrived in this country on 8 i February 12th 1964 , between February 12th, 1964 and April 4th , 1964 , where were you in this country? 10 7 Mr Nosenko. February 12 of 1964 and April 4th, I was staying in house in Virginia_ I do not know address . 12 1 Mr Dodd = Did you go did you travel at al1? 13 Mr Nosenko No , sir_ 14 1 15 Mr Dodd _ No vacation? Mr Nosenko . Oh I went in March on week to Hawaii_ I was 16 6 Mr Dodd _ Were you on your own? 17 L Mr Nosenko No , no , no , with guards _ 18 E Mr Dodd _ It was a relaxed period for you and just a chance 19 8 to rest? 20 Mr Nosenko . Chance to get a little bitirest. 21 Mr Dodd - Is it your knowledge that this is the normal way 22 that defectors are treated when they come to this country? 23 Mr Nosenko I do not know 24 Mr Dodd . Just one last point, Mr Chairman and that is 25 Ilp SeCRET ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC. HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 112 ================================================== Page 113 ================================================== TbP SEBRET 136 with regard to the American exhibit, as a result of a statement by Mr _ Klein which I understand you did not disagree with , the Americdn 2 exhibit ended on Sepgember 4th, 1959? That's when the termination 3 of the exhibit was? 4 Mr Nosenko . Yes , he showed-me an article. 5 3 Mr Dodd _ Is it your knowledge that employees thatworked 8 6 8 during the exhibit stayed on for a period of time after that? 7 1 Mr Nosenko . Sure, to it will be disassembled , this 1s the 8 8 whole process is going on. It is closed for visitors to visit, to look 10 7 Mr Dodd How long a period would that hzwe been , a week? 11 Mr _ Nosenko . No , more 12 1 13 Mr Dodd _ More? Mr Nosenko More, sure 14 I Mr : Dodd:' Thank you , Mr Chairman 15 The Chairman Mr Nosenko , with reference to your earlier 16 6 comments this evening regarding what transpired during your 17 L period 0f isolation_ which you described as extreme spartan 18 E conditions , I would like to make this request 0f you . I think the 19 8 record ought to in a very graphic way portray those conditions 20 under which you were subjected during that period of time , and 21 while you are complying with Mr Edgar S request and working with 22 the staff in terms of the contradictory data, would you also agree 23 to work with te staff in terms 0f seeing that the record has a 24 complete and accurate description 25 TOP SECRET ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY_ INC. HT 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 113 ================================================== Page 114 ================================================== 137 TOp SECRET Mr _ Nosenko Yes , sir The Chairman _ --of all the conditions which underwent:x 2 during that period? 3 Mr Nosenko _ Yes , sir. 4 The Chairman. Thank: you. 5 1 Did have some? 6 { Mr Cornwell Following up on the question that Congressmar 7 1 Dodd just asked you, the staff, in an' attempt to determine how long 8 8 it took to disassemble the exhibition , checked: with a knowledge- able employee who was involved in that process in the State 10 1 Department and were informed by that person that the exhibition was disassembled and the persons who were operating it had 12 1 left by October the 4th approximately 30 days after the 13 exhibition was terminated . 14 7 15 Would you disagree with that information? Mr _ Nosenko . No , sir, I cannot disagree. I do not remember 16 5 I do not know even , when they left, no , sir. 17 L Mr Cornwell That is all I have . 18 F The Chairman Anything further from the Committee? 19 8 Now, Mr . Devine 0 do you have anything? 20 Mr Devine No He is under continuing subpoena 21 The Chairman Under the rules of the Committee , Mr Nosenko 1 22 any witness appearing before our Committee is entitled at the 23 conclusion of his testimony to address the Committee for a 24 period of five minutes for the purpose of clarifying anything 25 LJrBoRRE GRAET COMPANY, INC. H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 114 you? you ================================================== Page 115 ================================================== TOP SECRET 138 for the record or making any statement he SO desires, and I want to at this time afford you that five minute period to make such a 2 statement, if you So desire: 3 Mr Nosenko . Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen , I consider 4 my appearance , invitation to appear at Committee, as I told also 5 ] the same applies before, my meetings with the staff of the Commit- tee , I consider it honor 1 great:honor for me I will try to 8 answer whatever I: remember , whatever I know as only truth, and 1 8 8 but the truth: And you would like to see me appear at any time , I am at your disposal and I will try to give you the things 10 7 what I know 11 The Chairman _ Thank you_ 12 1 That is the completion of your statement , sir? 13 Mr Nosenko _ Yes 0 sir 14 1 The Chairman. Mr . Nosenko , on behalf of the Committee and 15 the United States Congress , I want to express our appreciation to 16 5 you for having appeared here and having given this Committee the 17 L benefit of your testimony. At this time I would remind you of 18 F the terms of your agreement to work with our staff and provide 19 8 further information to the Committee , that you will continue 20 under the oath administered to you by this Committee 21 Mr Nosenko _ Yes , sir. 22 The Chairman Thank you very much for your appearance 23 here 24 Mr Nosenko . Thank you , sir 25 IdRorrE GrAET REPORHING COMPANY, INC. H# 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 115 only ================================================== Page 116 ================================================== TOp SECRET 139 The Chairman _ You are excused 2 At this time, there being no further business to come 3 before the Committee , the mee ting is adjourned subject to the 4 call of the Chair_ 5 (Whereupon , at 10:17 0 'clock P .m . , the Committee was ] 6 adjourned subject to the call 0f the Chair.) 2 7 1 8 8 9 10 7 12 1 13 14 1 15 16 5 17 L 18 E 19 8 20 21 22 23 24 25 Twp SECRET ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. HY 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 116

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