Transcript of 178-10002-10279.pdf
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178-10002-10279] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
JFK ssassialon System Dae; 387517201
Identification Forn
Agency Information
AGENCY ROCKCOM
RECORD NUMBER 178-10002-10279
RECORD SERIES ASSASSINATION FILES
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : A-I(J) CORRESPONDENCE--ASSASSINATIONS
Docum ent Information
ORIGINA TOR ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
FROM
TO
TITLE : DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM STURBITTS
DATE : 04/16/1975
PAGES : 4
SUBJECTS
ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITES
CIA
STURBITTS, WILLIAM
FITZGERALD, DESMOND
KENNEDY ROBERT
CUBAN EXILES
DOCUMENT TYPE DEPOSITION
CLASSIFICATION Secret
RESTRICTIONS IA; IB; IC
CURRENT STATUS Redact
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 02/13/2001
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS Selected pages from deposition. Full document is number 178100021009 1_
v9.1
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C @ N % E 4 I {
1 2 Deposition_Qf
Examination Counsel
For the Conmission
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2 Willian C . Sturbitts
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(AFTERNOON SESSION Page 58 )
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William C_ Sturbitts (Resumea) 58
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3 PRESIDENT 5 COMMISSION
3 2
ON CIA ACTIVITIES
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Langley , Virginia
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Wednesday , April 16 , 1975
Deposition of {ILLIAM C . STURBITTS , called for
examination 'Counsel for the Commission on CIA Activities,
the witness being duly sworn by Thomas C: Hogan , a Notary
Public in and for the State of Virginia, in the offices 0f the
1C Central Intelligence Agency , Langley , Virginia, at 9 :50
0 'clock a.m . , on Wednesday , April 16 , 1975, the proceedings
12 being taken down in stenotype by Ruth G McClenning , and 1
0
12
transcribed under her direction_
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3 14 APPEARANCES :
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On behalf of the Commission:
16 GEORGE MANFREDI ESQ. ,
1 7 ROBERT B OLSEN ESQ .
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Thereupon ,
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NILLIAM C . STURBITTS _
called as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA
5
Activities, and having been first duly sworn by the Notary
6
Public, was examined and testified as follows :
7
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION
8
BY MR _ YANFREDI :
9
Mr Sturbitts, Will you state your full name for the
10 record?
11 William C . Sturbitts.
12
Mr . Sturbitts, do you recall when we spoke some
4
13
weeks ago you signed a document entitled, "Advice and
3
3 14 Waiver"?
15 Right=
16 You understand that document is still in effect?
17 A Sure
18 Mr Sturbitts, by whom are You currently employed?
19 You mean the Agency or 1
20 That is,right.
2
21 A Central Intelligence Agency _
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<
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22 And what is your current position with the Agency? 3
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23 I am a
Special Assistant, Latin America, for
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24 Economic Intelligence Collection and Operations
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25 And would you briefly review for me the history of
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your employment with the Agency?
{ 2
When I first came in I was in the Intelligence
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3
Directorate for approximately ten years and I was put on special
detail, special indefinite detail, in the Deputy Director , Plans
5
which is now the Directorate of Operations _
6
What Year were you put on that detail?
I guess it was 1964 , January , I believe
8
And what did that detail involve?
9 Cuban operations
1
economic warfare
10
And how long were YOu on that detail?
11
I Was in the Cuban operations for nine years.
12
3etween 1964 and 19732 1
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13
(Nods in affirmative.)
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14
And in 1973 did You assue your current position?
15
Yes , January .
16 Now , while You were on special detail L L to the DOD?
17
Yes .
18 Were You stationed in Washington?
19 Yes
8
20 And did You comute with some frequency to Miami?
:
21 Yes _
7
} 22 Were your activities in Miami in any way connected
5
23 with the operations of the Miani Station?
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24 In some way . Ny responsibilities were worldwide_
25
I took temporary duty predominantly in Europe and then Miami
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Most of my operations were run out of Zurope _
8 2
Run out of
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3
Europe. Some were run out of Miami but the ones
4
were run out of Europe
5 Nell, in the course of your activities with respect
6
to Cuba did you have occasion to become familiar with the
operations of the Miami base?
8
Yes
9 And the situation in the Cuban community in Miami?
10 Yes, sir.
11 During the nine Years you were with DDO S Cuban
12 operations , who was 4 2 who were the chiefs of the Miani
1
3
13 Station?
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3
14 I think in 1963 Tea Shackley was the Chief and he
15
was followed by 30 I can't think of his name I should know
16 it..Well, I will come back to that
17 Then , the next Chief of Station was Paul Henze .
18 What years was he Chief?
19 I think 'Raul was there about a year and a half He
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20 left in 1968 when we reduced the size of the Station_ Let' s
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21 say Henze was there from 1966 to 1968 And then Jake Esterlind 7
22 He was Chief of Station from 1968 to 1973
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23 Now Jhat Ivas the formal title of the group to which
1
: 24 you were assigned for che 9-year period?
2
25 Nell Tvhen I first care in it was known as the
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Special Activities Staff. It was headed by Desmond Fitzgerald_
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Ana then , I believe after that it becane the Cuban Operations
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Group _
4
Now was this a special group within the DDO or was
5
it attached to one of the area divisions?
6
A No Following the Bay of Pigs , they created a
thing
callea Task Force w which was headed by Bill Harvey . And
that T when Harvey left, he went to {Zhief of Station Rome
9 ana Fitzgerald took over , it becane: Special Activities Staff.
1C
It wasn t attached to anything except J ~ it reported to the
11
Deputy Director, Plans _
12 And that was Mr Karamessines?
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13 Yes Well, it was Helns at that time back when it
2
<
: 14
was first created. Helms was DDP at that time
15 And Task Force W was created immediately after the
16 of Pigs?
17
A {ell, not immediately . I think sometime around
18 in the Bay of Pigs was in April_ I think this was created in
19 September , something like that, 1961
20 And that subsequently became the Special Activities
21 Staff?
22 4 Special Activities Staff and consequently became the
23 Cuban Operations Group. As the Cuban Operations Group it went
;
24 back into the Western Hemisphere Division
25 And what was the date of that reorganization?
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A WNell, let's see . I would say that was probably around
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17 2 1965 because Fitzgerald then became Chief , M.H., and then
later DDP
2
4 Now Mr.Harvey do you recall what position Mr
5 Harvey held after he left Task Force W?
Yes . He was#Chief of Station Rome
And is he still with the Agency?
8 Oh , no He retired a long time ago
9 Do you know Ihere he lives at the present tine?
1C A Frankly, I aon' t. I have an idea where he lives
He went to work for a friend of mine who had a law firn
12 Harvey i9 a lawyer_
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3 Indianapolis area?
4
13
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5 Yes , some place around there It is in the midwest,
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Indiana
25
What was the role that was assigned to Task Force
16
W?
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It was the overall Cuban operations
12
Did the Miami when was the Miami Station estab~
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19
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lished?
2
20
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A Well, I think they had a forward operatio-s base down
21 |
there about 1960 which was small
1
in, Coral: Gables
2 22
This was, then , prior to the Bay of Pigs?
23
j
5 Oh , yes .
24
Vow , in addition to Task Force W , was the Miami
25
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Station running any operations against Cuba?
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A You mean prior to- the Bay of Pigs?
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Yes
I really don t know It was 3 small T Ia it was a
5
forward base an it was more or less as I recall, a support type
6 thing _
7 Well , after the Bay of Pigs when Task Force Wv was
8 established, did it have sole responsibility for Cuban
9 operations?
1C
Yes
11 Or was that shared with the Miami base , Miami
12 Station? 1
J
13
No The Miami Station was under Task Force M_
2
<
:
14 All right_ Mould that also be true of the Special
15 Activities Staff, the Cuban Operations Group?
16 2 Right, except that at the present time the Station
17 has no Cuban operations
12 I understand that When were Cuban operations termi-
~1
19 nated?
1
20 At the Station? Let's see Sternfield went down
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21 there in 1972 _ It was during fiscal year '72 I think it was
22 in early 1973 _ It Ias 3 gradual reduction_
0 23 And have those operations been terminated en tirely
;
3
24 or are they now run out of the Washington area?
25 All Cuban operations are run out of Washington_
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There are no more
paramilitary operations , that type of thing .
1 2 But there are some Cuban operations being run out of
1
3 the Washington area?
4 A Right.
5 Is that correct?
6 Right = Worldwide
Mr.Sturbitts, in the last couple of weeks you may
have seen some allegations in the press about possible assasgina-
9 tion attempts that have been nounted or alleged assassination
10 attempts that have been mounted
11 Right .
12 against Fidel Castro . In the course of your
1
5
13 activities with respect to Cuba , did you ever learn of any such
0
:
: 14 attempts?
15 A Well, let e answer it this way . I wouldn t say
16 I know there was discussion . IF Attempts" is too
attempts
17 strong a word _
18 Nell can you place in time your first knowledge of
19 any such discussions?
1
20 A Nell the first knowledge I had of any discussions
3
21 I was on TDY and this was October November , 1963 , with Fitzgeralld
1
22 in Paris. And I knew that ne was going to meet ~t let me put
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23 it another way. I had overneard that discussions were going on
3
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24 with 3 nenber of Castro 5 nilitary but that he wanted , as
:
9
I recall, he wanted some British CT I mean Belgian rifles and
7 25
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3 a telescopic sight
2 2
Who wanted then?
1
This military guy that was in Fidel's
Eaa I think
at one time he was a commandante Now , I knew that was going
on I didn t participate in it because I was there for another
reason And I know that subsequent to that time that Fitzgerald
met with him again and as 1I recall a5 the personal representa-
tive of the Attorney Ceneral Bobby Kennedy _
I provided all those files_ There are 19 volumes that
1C
we gave to your people _ But I don t know who was reviewing
11
them I think Belin was going to do' it hinself
;
12
Yes . He is. He is doing it hinself:
{
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You said there were 19 volumes of documents with
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3 14
respect to this
13 19 files , manila
16 All having to do with possible assassination?
17 All having to do with this whole time period and
12
can we 9o off the record for a minute?
19 (Discussion off the record.)
1
20 BY MR AANFREDI :
5
21 The first knowledge of such conversations that you
2
22 had, I taxe it Yo1 obtained on 3
trip
to Europe with Mr
23 Fitzgerald? J1
24 I sitply overheard it, that is right.
25 And who were the parties to the conversation you over
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heara?
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A A fellow named Mestor Sanchez
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And Mr Fitzgerald?
4 Yes , and I really can t recall some of the other
5
people . We were we nad just movea the Station at that time ,
6 in Paris, out of the Embassy into the old Rothschild Palace
and we felt that it was probably bugged_ So all conversations
took place
~ H we walked around the garden and tyat type of
thing, and , you know I was walking with somebody , somebody
10
was in front of me, ana You just overhear conversations
11 This was in Paris?
12 Yes. 1
4 13 I see.
8
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3 14 Mr. Sanchez was he a member of the military?
15 A No Sanchez was_ in the Special Activities Staff_
16 He was stationed in Washington And he was in contact with
17 Cuban militaryrtype
i3 Was it your understanding that the Agency had receive
19 instructions with respect to this activity from another
1
G
20 component of the Government?
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21 Tell, let me put it this way . I don ' + knaw whether 1
22 hey received instructions I have to assume and I am pretty
4
23 positive, that this was a result of a Special Group decision
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5
24 And at this time vou have to remember that Bobby Kennedy was
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2 25 overseeing this deal, presumably for his brother , and he was
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part of that Special Group . He called the meetings , he presided
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he did a number of things _
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Were there any other occasions that you can recall
in which the possibility or the subject of assassination of
Fidel Castro was discussed?
6
A No , not really.
7
You referred to this as the first occasion.
5
This is the first
9
Was there 2 second?
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A the first tine I knew about it or even heard it
discussed.
12
Well prior to the investigation that is currently
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12 underway I am referring now to our Commission' s investigation
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3 14
~ m were there any other occasions in Ihich this subject came
16 to your attention after this discussion in the garden in
16 Paris?
1 7 The only other thing that came to my attention was
12 that the decision was made not to provide hin with this sight
19 that he wanted _ Whether that is right or wrong , I don' t know
1
2C but that is what I Was told :
21 When did you learn that? 1
2 22 Oh, I would assue in 2o must have been early 1964 ,
7
22 around February , something like that.
;
;
24 Off the record
23 Discussion off the record. )
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MR . MANFREDI: On the record
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BY MR . MANFREDI :
1
Mr . Sturbitts are you familiar with a gentleman by
1
the name of Frank Sturgis?
Indeed _
Is your faniliarity based on what have read in
the press?
No . It is what is contained in the files.
Have you caused a search to be made of CIA files,
1 particularly the files of the Western Hemisphere Division ,
in an attempt to determine whether Mr _ Sturgis ever had any
12 connection with the Agency?
1
0
13 I have
1
2 14 What were che results of that search?
13 Absolutely no connection, never has been
16 When we talk about connection , are we talking about
17 an employment relationship?
12 That is what I am speaking of _
19 Was Mr.Sturgis ever an independent contractor of
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j 28 the Agency?
0
21 A No . 7
22 Nas he ever a
contract employee?
%
Ji 2 No
{
{
24 Was he ever 3 regular employee of the Agency?
3
25 No
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Was he ever nired to do any piecework for the
2 2 1 Agency?
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Not to my knowledge
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Do Jou know whether or not Mr Sturgis ever partici-
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pated in any type of paramilitary or other operation against
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Cuba?
A On nis own behalf he did, not on behalf of this
8
Agency .
9 How did you learn of those operations?
10 Througn the newspaper . And through FBI reports _
11 Now are these recent FBI reports?
12 Oh , no . These 9o back 4 I know at one tine the
1
4
13 thing that cones to mind , I think he made a leaflet drop
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4
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14
over Cuba and this was subsequently reported in the press and
18 the Bureau office in Miami
16 Do You know who financed his activities?
17 I have no idea.
12 Is it possible that Mr Sturgis activities were
19 indirectly financed by the Agency through
1
:
20 A I don't see how_ Frank Sturgis is a soldier of
c
21 fortune; has been. He has cons tantly tried to associate himself
2
3 22 with the Agency . When I went through his file they wanted me
7
23 to classify the file ana the way I classified it was "don't
;
5
Ii : 24 destroy it, he is an intelligence nuisance_
8 25 ff che recora_
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(Discussion off the record. )
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MR . MANFREDI : On the record _
1 3
BY MR . MANFREDI :
Have You caused the Agency records with respect to Mr
5
Sturgis to be assembled in any one location?
€
A Yes. Ihave cus tody of them =
7
And wnat is the vo lume of that material?
8
A A5 I recall there are five volumes Your Committee
$
called for them the other after the article in the paper ,
13
I guess it was last Saturday_ They called for then Monday and
11 they returned then Monday afternoon
12 Do you know who examined those files?
3
13 No , I don ' t.
3
3 1 You indicated a moment ago that Mr . Sturgis contacts
16
the DCD office in Miami with some frequency is that correct?
16
A Well, not great frequency but he does with tidbits
17 of sO-called information
12 Is this information limited to narcotics, allegea
19 narcotics traffic?
1
20 A Recently it has been
21 Has Mr sturgis been encouraged the DCD office
22 in Miami?
1
23 A Xr. Sturgis has been told bY the DCD office in Miami
;
5
24 to take his information to the Drug Enforcement Agency or the
25 FBI
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Do you know whether or not they consider him an
5
2 8 established contact?
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No manner
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Do they have any
do they periodically seek to
collect information from Mr Sturgis?
I t speak to that bui the records that we have
don' t reflect. anything like that. Before they would contact
somebody in that context , knowing that there is a 201 file
on Sturgis, they would have to coordinate with the Latin
10 American Division before they did anything since we do hold
11 the file.
12 Would you briefly explain what a 201 file is?
1
8
13 A 201 file is 2 personnel file. It consists of any
:
} 14 information relating to an individual appearing in the press
1:
as a result of other agencv reporting and that type of thing
16 Personnel or personality file?
1 Personality file, I should say . Excuse me
12 Do you know whether or not there is any connection
19 or relationship between Eugenio Martinez and Mr Sturgis?
1
20 4 Well, I Will say this Obviously, they do know
:
3
21 each other. They have to know each other from their days
22 in Cuba
23 Do you know whether or not Mr . Sturgis ever partici-
;
5
24 pated with Martinez in raids against Cuba?
2 25 No 15 [ recall we employed Martinez around 1961
7
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I guess , and he was in our naritime activities. He was a
{ 2
boat captain eventually. And he did participate in infiltrations
1
and exfiltrations ana perhaps one or two raids , hit and run,
sabotage-type actions against Cuba Sturgis never engaged in
any of these things _ He never did it for us nor did he ever
6
do it on any 0f our boats planes , or L ~ anything that belongs
to the Agency .
8 When Nartinez would run such an operation or captain
3 boat on such an operation, would ne be charged with putting
1 together his own crew?
11
4 No He had an assigned crew and every boat had a
12
Case Officer operating either out cf the a probably out of
1
3
13 the Miani Station_ Sonetimes I woula assume that we did have
1
14
sone people in the Rey West base But he, Martinez , mould receilve
13 his instructions and briefings from his Case Officer .
16 Sa it is likely that he could have brought Sturgis
17 along on any of shese operations?
12 Absolutely unlikely . Oh , the guy whose name I was
19 trying to think of , Chief of Station , John Dimmer
20 And that would be for a Period of time between
21 Shackley and Henze?
22 Yes_
2z 1964 to 19662
24 Something like that
25 Would !ou describe briefly for me the nature of the
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3 activities conducted bY the Special Activities Staff during
2 {
your ~ 4 and subsequently the Cuban Operations Group during
5
your 9-year tenure with those groups .
Well, there was Ca it was an across-the-board
intelligence operation consisting of collection of foreign
positive intelligence _
1
counterintelligence , paramilitary
activities, covert action , econonic activities. That is about
8
the breaath of the thing
Vow , these were all conducted through the DDO?
1C
Right.
11
Vow let' s speak for 3 noment about the paramilitary
12
operations _ Were these operations run out of southerr
13 Florida?
2
0
: 14 Right.
i6 And in particular out of the Miami Station?
16
Yes
17
Nere there any other CIA facilities in that area of
18 the country that participated in these activities?
19 A Vot to my knowledge _
20 Nere there any southern harbors other than Miami
21 that were used in these activities?
22 Nell we had activities down in the Keys also . As
23 I said_ we did have a Key West base _
24 Nere there any other bases in that area of the
25 country that were utilized in these operations?
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4 Well, not that I would call a base. We did have
2
training facilities for the UDT teans
5
What is a UDT team?
Underwater demolition
Nhere were those bases located?
1 Erankly don t know They were down along the Keys ,
along that long peninsula going down there There were a
8 nunber of sites. I really can t recall then
Were there any other sites within the United States
10 in which paramilitary training was conducted _ for people
11 participating in these activities?
12 Vot ta mY knowledge
13 Where were these people trained?
{
2 14 What do you mean?
12 Well Cubans who participated in these activities.
16 We trained them at these places- we had in the Keys
17 Now there also 4 some of them were brought up here and traineh
12 at the Domestic Fraining Station
19 {here i5 that located?
20 That is down in Virginfa.
21 Were any CIA personnel accually involved in these
22 raids?
23 Occasionally , I would think that K # you have got to
24 understand at chis time that we haa a great many contract
25 employees independent contractors and this type of thing .
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Most of the paramilitary operations and the training was
2 1
conducted by the Special Operations Group which is another
entity of the
DDO?
DDO
6
Now , the facilities that we have been talking about,
training facilities, were manned , then , by the Special
8
Operations Group, or at least supervised by the Special
Operations. Croup , is that correct?
10
Nell, supervised _ Yes, and I would think that probably
11
some of the training was given by their people _ The Domestic
12 Training Station 15 under the Office of Training ana J but I
13 would think that in the paranilitary field that the SOG would
<
3 14 probably staff the training facility with their people who havei
16 the expertise in paramilitary operations
16 Now , were the people that were being trained at
17 these facilities basically Cuban refugees?
12 Yes
19 And at the outser 7 ake it not many of those people
20 were American citizens?
21 No
22 Or had becone American citizens
23 I Tvould assune a great many have
24 By this time
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At the present tine, how large is that Cuban communi
y 2
in Miani? Do you have any idea?
Well, it is extremely large. I would think it is
1
probably A# I was trying to think I would say uP towards .a
military people _
You spoke about paramilitary operations and covert
action How do you distinguish between those two categories
8
of activities?
[ell actually one can fall into the other. The
10 paramilitary could fall into covert action but in those days
we did distinguish somewhat. A lot of the covert action was
12 nedia placement _ We haa 3 number of operations at e 5
legal-
:
4 ~
3 13 type cperations _ harassment operations For instance, Fidel
1
2
3 14 seized a great many art treasures ard in particular he had 3
15 Napoleonic collection which was supposed to be the finest in
16 the world that he sold to Cealers in Europe . He had paintings
17 thac were immensely valuable that he tried to have auctioned
18 in London ana the London auctioneer would not accept them
19 because he obviously didn' t have clear title to them _ He was
1
20 they were stolen,in the eyes of the auctioneer. He was
21 forcea to auction them in Toronto, Canada
22 We ran
legal operations the owners and had them
23 hire attorneys and bring them to court and this type of thing_
24 He seized these race horses He tried to peddle them
25 in Europe and uP in Canada Ne ran opposition against that
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type of thing _
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8 2
These were what You considered to be covert operationb?
3
1 3
Yes, covert action
1
Now , this is what you were referring to, legal-
5 type operations?
Yes _
You used legal process to harass Castro
8
Yes
9 What other types of harassment activities did you
10
run that would fall under this covert action category?
i1 Well
12 Would economic warfare be
1
4
13 That was sort of some thing separate unto itself.
3
7
3
14 This was T t the economic warfare aspect of this thing was a
12 decision' Of the Special Group to enforce an economic blockace
16 Mhat special group is that?
17 It is now called the Forty Committee
12 Is that 302 Committee?
19 A Well, it was a 302 at one time
0
too First of all,
1
20 it Was called the Special Group, CI , Counterinsurgency . Then
2
21 it went to the 30 2 and then it had another name in between
22 there and now it is the Forty Committee
23 A11 right. We will returz to that a little bit
;
5
24 later, but what other types of harassment were you running
:
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0 This is what I was trying to think of
~ 2 1
E
that would be considered covert action?
1
3
Well, as I say , a lot of propaganda , press placement ,
nedia placement. It has been 50 long ago I really don 't
5
remember . I know we had a number of things going against hin.
Ne used suasion, morai suasion , otherwise We did some
7
extra-legal things_ Ne tried to get to his sources of supply ,
8
Particularly Then they were countries that we haa treaties
9
with, NATO countries , Canada , this type or thing _
1C
Let' 5 talk about each of those in turn You said
11
used moral suasion Nhat *ind of activities are You
12
1 referring to?
0
13
4 Well, in the moral suasion field we actually, we
{
3 14
were the catalyst in this wnole thing and we had the legal
15
activities, the legal 5 a
well, I aon t know how you would
16 phrase it, but we operatea under the Cuban access control
17 regulations of the Treasury Department , the Trading with the
12
Enemy Act, and we also used the facilities 0f the Department ofl
19
Commerce the Export Control people _
1
20 I guess as vou are aware, Cuban industry was totally
21 U.S.-oriented _ As parts began wearing out and this type of |
22 thing , Castro had his little people there running around tryingi
4
9
;
23 to place orders with subsidiaries of U.S companies _ Where
24
we would find this out through all-source intelligence we
25
or the Treasury people or the Commerce people would 9o to the
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executives of these American companies and ask them to tell
3 2
their foreign subsidiaries not to provide the spare parts
1
5
and the other things that Castro might need. We had the
L
Department of Commerce Ma A we identified 600 of the major 0.5 _
companies that could provide spare parts for Cuban industry .
we had the Department of Commerce send letters to those 600
manufacturers and ask them to cooperate with then' in denying
8
any spare parts to the Cubans This was a
fairly concentratea
G
effort to really isolate then_
iC All right_ Ana that is what You were referring to
1i
as moral suasion?
12
: Yes
1
0 13 Anything else in that category?
9
3 14 Not really. None that I can think of
15 Did You make the same kind of efforts with foreign
16 corpanies?
1 7 At one point Ive Gid but it was absolutely useless,
18 the point in case being the Leyland buses We pulled all stops
19
to stop that sale The British Government turned uS down
1
c 20 Elat.
3
21 Now , did you attempt to reach any other sources of L
22 supply?
'u
' 23 Well, we als0 had what we call a preemptive Purchasink
1
:
24 program. If there was 3 single source of supply for a
9
25 particular item we would 9o in and buy it to deny the Cubans
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the market _
2 3
Would that then be re-sold somewhere on the domestic
1
3
Yes.
domestic market?
No . It would be re-sold abroad
In all cases?
The cases that I was associated with, it was all
sold abroad _
9
What kind of purchases were made?
13
Well, we eurchased at one point we purchased
some Bright Stock in Antwerp.
12
What?
13
Bright Stock _
:
1;
What is that?
10
Heavy , heavy oil, and since Cuba ~ M 85 percent of
1C
her energy comes from 0il, this was considered a critical
13
comnodity Bright Stock can be 7t
oh , it is almost like tar,
12
meltea tar, and it can be cut into additives , lubricants, this
19
type of thing, and this was critical to the Cuban economy . So
1
2c
we had an 0il Eirm purchase this Bright Stock from a dealer for
2
21 which we reimbursed che quy and the Bright Stock was eventually 1
3
22 sold in Africa_
4
0
7
23 Do YOu know Of any sales of such materials that
24 were made within the United States? Resales , I should say.
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In addition to preemptive buying were there any 3
2 8
other actions taken by this group with respect to sources of
1
3
supply to Cuba?
Well we did provide through third country agents
who got orders for Cuban goods_ in collusion with the Commerce
Department, and 1 would assue the Special Group , we had
7 replacement parts manufactured that were substandard
8
And vou had them sold through foreign companies?
A Nell, we haa our agents get the Cuban orders all
10
over Europe. Then they would come back and , as a matter of facti,
11
the former Secretary of Comnerce, who is on your Committee , Des
3
12
and I met him and he gave uS the go-ahead to do this
1
4
13
Mr Dillon?
2
5
3 No He was Secretary of the Treasury.
1&
But
16
But vou must remember that these American
Mr . Conmors?
2 Yes . But you must remember these American manufacturers ,
19 well their places were nationalized and they were only too
1
20 happy to work Twith WS Ana actually, it was a cash deal , bona
21 fide business These things were transshipped through two L
3
22
or three countries , finally wound uP in Havana.
23 You referred to some extra-legal activities
3
5
24 Yes. That is whac I was trying to think of , what
25 we &id = 1 just can t think I I remember this was on one of
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3 our activities but I just can'€ think T o I remenber this was
4 2 8
on one of our activities but I just can t remember Fhat the
j
:
extra-legal was . I just can t remenber what it was, I know
1
it was one of the parts Of the program_
This was .illegal activities? Is that what you are
referring to?
A Well I wouldn t say they were illegal
8
but they
weren t exactly legal, I don 't think Perhaps they were in a
gray area sone place _
Nell, whose laws are we
talking about , international
law, the laws of the United States?
12
A I woula have to go back and review the thing . I 1
3
13
really can t remember this I would have to go to the Eiles.
1
: 1} Where could we find that kind of thing in the files?
10
A I Iould think probably down in the Records Center some
1f place _
17 Would it be possible to obtain that material some
13
time auring the lunch hour?
19 No It i5 forty miles away -
1
2C Well, is there some place in the building where
1
21
you could refresh your memory?
22 Vot to my knowleage . All that stuff' has been shippedl
22
This is talking 11 years ago , 12 years ago . All that material
;
24 has been retired _
25
What category of activity would we
be talking about
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when we refer to extra-legal activities?
2 3
A This is what I was trying to think of and I can'
1
think of what it was, I know extra-legal activities was one
parts of the program that we were involved in.
5
I might have a chart in mY safe downstairs that might
tell me what that is.
Well, let' $ make a note of that ana we Will have to
come back to that_
9
All right
Who else would be knowledgeable about extra-legal
activities that were rn against Castro?
12
Well the people that' would be knowledgeable are 1
3
13 probably retired and I was running the Program _ So I ran
1
3 the economic program_
13 Well, these are activities that were run in connecticn
12 with the economic program?
17 Yes
12 We talked about media placement during this nine-
22 year period To what are. You referring when you refer to
1
23 media placement?
21
A Well, stories or rews itens that perhaps our
2
22 propaganda people wrote We had them placed in newspapers
4
5 23 and magazines throughout the world_
J
24 Nould this also include broadcasts over radio
25 stations?
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Oh , Radio is 3 very big part of it.
{
2 2
Now , were any of these newspapers or magazines
published within the United States?
Not to my knowledge , no
These were
essentially foreign publications?
Yes
Were any of chem published in the Cuban community
6
in Miani?
9
4 No . The intent was to get world: opinion against
1C
Castro You don t do that bY publishing in the United States
11
What about the. radio broadcasts? How were those
12
8 handled?
#
12
Are you speaking of Radio Swan now?
{
: 14 Well_
1
I am unfamiliar With how many radio stations
12
were involved Has there more than one radio station?
16
No Ve only nad the one radio station but Ie did
17 contract time with Florida stations , a station in New York
12 For broaccasts to that areas?
12 For broadcasts to Havana
20 And the station in New York, was that received also
21 was that also broadcasting to various areas of the United
22 States?
23 A I have no idea I con t know whether they used a
24 particular Erequency to get this out or whether they did it
25
on short-wave or What they did_
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But the intention was to reach Cuba_
7
Ji 2 1 Reach Cuba
1
3
You referred to a station in New York, referred to
a5 Swan . Nere there others?
There were 3 couple in Miami that I recall Not in
Miami I think there was one Yes , there was one in Miami
I think, and one down in Key Nest that they used -
8
{here was Radio Swan located?
9
On Swan Island
1C
Where i5 'Swan Island?
11 Swan Island is a little around Honduras
12
As far as you can recall, were there any other
2
< 2
4 13 radio stacions in the United States that were utilized to
1
; 14 broadcast Propaganda materials toward cuba?
15 Well, there conceivably could have been , not that
16 I recall right now .
1 7 Do You recall any attempts the Agency or groups
18 affiliated with the Agency Zo raise money from the American
19 public to support those propaganda: activities?
20 No _ As far as I know , Radio Swan and this type of
21 thing was fully subsidized by the Agency .
22 Do You recall the advertising campaigns that were
23 run in connection with Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty?
24 Oh , yes
25 Nas anything of that nature done in connection with
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Cuban propaganda?
3
2
A Not to my knowledge
3 And that would include both the publications and the
4 radio?
5 Right_
Let's taik about economic warfare for a couple 0f
moments Could you describe for me briefly the type of
economic activities that were conducced against Castro?
Well, first Jf all, we wanted to denigrate the
1C regime lis credit worthiness , and this type of thing _ We
11 worked very closely with the Coordinator Of Cuban Affairs in
12 the State Department and , well for instance in those days , I
3
13 guess it was back in 1964 , the price of sugar haa jumped fron
:
< 14 about 2 penny a pound to 13 cents a pound something like
15 that, and we couldn t underscand So we kept Fidel ept
16 saying that he had such a ?oor crop and this type of thing and
17 we just couldn t figure out he had such a poor crop becausel
12 some of our own island assecs told u5 they were out there cuttihg
19 this cane like mad and the mills were working 24 hours a
1
20 this type of thing_ So subsequently, we found out that be was
21 lying and he was storing the raw cane in the schools , any
2 22 place _ He had no storage facilities and put it any place he
D
f 23 could_
5
{
24 So in cooperation with a couple of sugar brokers in
25 New York, we surfaced this fact and the price of sugar took a
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J real tuble and all of a sudden then Cuba started exporting _
{ 2
It was this type of thing that obviously he was
trting to build uP the world price because he didn t have any 1
money , he was so short on his exchange , and obviously we didn t
5
Ivant him to get the exchange _ So it was those types of
€
activities_
Was the assistance of any U.S . businegsmen or U.S _
companies enlisted in that effort?
Oh , ves ,
iC
In what Manrer :id You use U.$ _ companies and
11
businessmen?
12
; Well, Ie simply used them as the experts A great
{
1
5
12
many the sugar industry in Cuba was controlled by the
6
: 14 American communi by American bankers , and obviously
i0 lost everything when chey had to pull out Sugar is the
16 lifeline of Cuba 25 far as any exchange , foreign exchange_ this
1 type of thing , and i2 was na turally our Number 1 target - So it
12
was only natural chat we Foula 9o to the American businessmen
19 What kina' of assistance did you seek or obtain fron
1
20 these businessmen?
21 A Well, we simply calked with them about you
22
know the market conditions Iere , the price was rising, if
23
we could find out thac Fidel has plenty of sugar, what would
24 happen to the market Frice. This type of thing _
25 They were used as consultants basically.
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They were used as consultants
8
basically, yes. 3
3 2
We have spoken about the investment American business
3
had in Cuba Dia it ever come to your attention that American
organized crime
A No _
6
had considerable investment in Cuba?
No . Well, everybody knew that the Mafia was in
2
Cuba I mean , all the casinos and this type of thing.
9
The casinos were run
13
I knew that long before: When I was in the Air Force
11 auring the war, I used to fly into Havana n weekends and this
12
type of thing _
13
I understana that. It was fairly Iell known
3
~
3 14
It was a criminal element_
12
The Mafia was involved with the casinos in Havana
16 Rights
17 Do you knory of any attempts bY the Agency ta enlist
12 the support or assistance of any crime figures in any manner
12 whatsoever in the Agency' s efforts against the Cuban regime?
1
20 No .
21 Have you ever heard of Mr.Roselli?
22 Oh , yes _
23 [Yhen Ias the first time you heard of Mr . Roselli?
24 Nell, I guess it was 0 3 it seems to me it was either
25 Drew Pearson or Jack Anderson had an article on hin a number
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of Jears ago 3
1 2
Was that the first time you heard of the man 5
1
3
name?
A Yes, as I recall
Is that also true of San Giancana?
No . I have heard chat name but I don 't know where
In connection with La
8
Not in connection with the Agency , no
5 In connection with the casinos or
1C
No
11 gambling interests in Cuba?
12 No 1
0
12 You know of. no instance in which organized crine
1
14 igures were used as consultants by the Agency?
12 Only what I read in the paper I had no knowledge
10 of that whatsoever
13 Do ou know Of any offers of assistance from figures
i2 of that type
19 A No 1
:
20 who were interested in getting back into cuba?
:
27 No _
}
7
22 We were talking about economic warfare We have
W
u) 23 talked about attempts to keep the price of sugar low_ What other
{
5
: 24 types Or economic activities were conducted against Castro S
2
5 25 Cuba?
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A Well we used all-source information to find out what
3
2 1
his commercial aealings were. When we would see ~77 well for
1
instance, the Nicaro Nickel Mine which is a source owned
by the General Services Adninistration, finally got back into.
5 production and nickel, of course and still is L M was in short
supply . We haa 3 French firm, Societe le Nickel, who was
7 buying almost:; the entire cutput of the Nicaro mines And this
8
French firm ex ported to the United States So we went to
the Treasury Department ana to the Foreign Assets Control
1C people and said_ isn t there some thing we can do to stop these
le Nickel exports coming into the United States? So they looked
12
into the thing and indeed they did
1
d
13 Who owned the mine?
2
4
2 14
2 The U.S Government owned it when Castro took it
10
over.
12 I see
17 4 General Services Administration And it was leased
12 out for operation. But the ownership rested with the
19 Government . 1
i
ZC So the Treasury simply made the French provide a
C
21 Certificate of Origin for the nickel that went in T 4 they 1
22 export a lot of metal that contains nickel, silverware, knives
W
6i
5
23 and forks , this type of thing, and ~t You know stainless
5
: 24 steel and since nickel is used as a hardening agent we simply
2 25 Treasury simply said You can t import any more into this
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country until we have a Certificate of Origin_ As a matter
8 2
of fact, there was a boat that was pulling into the dock in
1
5
New York and they wouldn' t let it unload just turned it 1
4
around _ Eventually ,
over a period of months le Nickel
5
found other sources and export privileges to the United States
6
were restored_
7
You know , it is you just any time you raise
8
or lower a tariff you have economic warfare . It is that
9
simple .
10
Were there any other instances that you can recall
11
of econonic warfare in which you enlisted the support of
12
American business firs?
4 13
A I know we were in touch with a great many American 8
3 14 business firms. We enlisted everybody' s support that we could
15
MR . MANFREDI : off the record _
16 (Discussion off the record. )
17 BY MR. MANFREDI :
18
When we broke for a moment we were discussing other
19 instances where the Agency has enlisted the support of Americanl 1
6 20_ business in economic warfare against Cuba Can You think of C
21 any other such instances?
L
22 A certainly . The Cubans were having an awful time
W
M 23 with their Maritime fleet such as it was . These boats nere J
0 24 powered: With;Nordberg engines We simply went to the Nordberg
L
9
25 people and told then asked them to cooperate with u8 , which
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said they would_ They notified their manufacturer $
3 2
representatives around the World if they got any orders from
1
3
the Cubans they were to be refused- This type of thing _ 1
4
We did the same thing with
44
5
Let' s just stop for a second Now
4 was Nordberg
6
compensated in any way for cooperation with the Agency?
7
No
8
Were compensated for the loss of business
9
involved in that activity?
10
No No
11
I take it, you received similar cooperation from
12 other companies_ 1
0 13
A Oh , a great many other companies yes 8
{ 14 Dia any American companies refuse to cooperate in
15 that manner?
16 No Not a one
17 Were there any legal sanctions threatened against any
18 companies?
19 No . No 1
5 20 Were there ary sanctions. that could have been broughtl
21 to bear upon those companies had they chosen to trade with
L
22 Cuba?
W
U
8
23 A Well, in the first place, couldn t trade with
5
1 24 Cuba They couldn t get export licenses from this country
2
4 25 anyway . Then , under the Foreign Assets Control Act of the
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1
Treasury Department you have the extra-territorialty clause
3
3 2
in there where a subsidiary of an American company cannot
1
3 foreign subsidiary of an American company cannot trade with
1
4
the country that is designated and Cuba was a designated countrl
5
And all the businessmen were well aware of this. Nobody tried
6
to twist their arm _
7
Other than insuring that these companies refused
8
to accept orders from Cuba , which I take it You feel they were
legally constrained from doing , what other types of support did
10
you receive fron American business?
11 Well, if American business sometimes they would
12 receive correspondence particularly, say , from well, they
1
2
13 received it from Cuba asking for_publications ana this type
8
: 14 of thing . They woula normally forward all this type of thing
15
to the Commerce Department and the Treasury Department , or in
16
some instances they might call me and I woula just give then
17
a Post Office box to send the correspondence to.
18 Any other types of support solicited or received by
19 the Agency from American business? 1
U 20 A No . Not that I can recall There just wasn t one
6
21 firm we approached , and God knows we approached I don 't know
7
22 how many , that wasn
t extremely cooperative . As a matter of
W
M 23 fact, a lot of then, You know thaught we weren t doing enough
1
3 24 that we to do a little more than we were doing , the
8
25 government wasn 't really pushing Cuba the way it should , but
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outside of that, nothing_ There wasn t any problem of coopera-
3 2
tion. There wasn t any arm-twisting . It was all voluntary
1
5
Did you
identify yourself
as CIA
L
4
A Yes .
5
a M
in dealings with these companies?
Indeed, I do and we went to the top level, even
the Board Chairman or the president. No problem at all:
Let' s talk about paramilitary operations . We started
but didn't really discuss that in any depth _
10
What kind of paramilitary operations were run
11 against Cuba by the CIA?
12
5 Maritime operations
{
4 13
Is that the extent of it?
8
4 ; 14
That is the extent of it.
15
Were there.any aerial operations?
16
Not to my knowledge
17 Leaflet drops?
13
No
19 Bombing? 1
( 20
A No . Of course You had the over-flights As far as
0
21 I am concerned that is the only aerial activity. 7
22 That was run by another directorate, wasn't it?
9
23 Yes 1
1 24 Aerial photography , and So forth
8
25 Yes They run a flight when you ask then . It has to
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be requested and that is about it.
8 2
And those were run out of the United States?
1
3
Oh , yes_
1
can you think of anything , any other type of para-
5
military activity other than maritime operations
No . I really can t, no
Am I correct that those operations were manned
8
by CIA contract employees?
9 Right .
10 Which would include Cuban refugees _
11 Right_
12
0 And some CIA officers? 1
d 13
A Right-
2
3 14
Any other branches of the services Armed Services ,
15 involved? This , of course, is posted Bay of
16
A Yes. No , not to my knowledge You have got to remenber
17 that probably down at our Domestic Training Station we
13 probably have people on detail from other I #u from the military
19 branches in the Government , but other than that I don 't think
1
9 20 that I of course during the Bay of operation we also
21 had people detailed into the Agency .
|
22 Now , the training of persons involved in maritime
4j
23 operations , I take it, was conducted in part within the
1
7 24 United States and in part outside of the United States. Is
8
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1
I would think probably the major portion of it was
1 2
conducted within the United States
1
5
The Keys would be considered within the United
4
States.
5
Oh , yes
6
Or were there any locations where it was conducted
7
outside the United States?
8 Following the Bay of I don t think S0 . Not
9
to my knowledge _ I just don t know , I just don' t recall
10
but I don 't think that T I think all the training was done
11 domestically.
12 Now , what kinds of operations are included within
1
0
13 this category of maritime operations?
2
2
3 14 4 Well, the infiltration operations
0
infiltrating
15 agents into Cuba , exfiltrating agents, hit and run sabotage
16 raids_ That is about the extent of it.
17 Now , when did. these. operations commence? Was it
18 shortly after the Bay of. Bigs?
19 I would I think these operations were probably
1
20 at their height during the period about 1963 through, say , 4
21 1967 . The program was terminated in 1968 , I think in December 1
22 1968 , some thing like that.
4
23 was the program terminated?
1
: 24 A First of all, it was too expensive It wasn t provid-|
2
25 enough intelligence and it simply wasn t LD +
economically,
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it wasn t feasible to continue these things_ The agents were
3 2
getting wrapped up . We were o u we just felt that the return
1
5
€ sufficient for what the investnent was.
L
4
You say the agents were getting wrapped up.
5
Yes .
6
What do you mean by that?
7
When we infiltrated an agent , Cubans would identify
8
hin and capture him.
9
These various types of paramilitary operations that
10
were conducted by the Agency I trust were approved the
11
Forty Committee?
12
A Every operation received a
specific approval from 1
4 13 the Forty Committee.
2
<
3
14
In advance?
15
In advance
16 Now , what was the procedure for submitting for
17 initiating such an
operation?
18
A Well, normally in the case of an infil or an exfil.
19
or perhaps we wanted to lay down the cache : 1
20 You are referring to a cache of arms 8
21
A A cache of anything , replay of radio, batteries 1
3 22 whatever they might need _ If we decided that we should have
4
23
one of these operations and the request would go from here
11
1 24
over to the, I guess to the White House and then the Forty
1
9
25 Committee at its weekly meeting
M
they used to meet very
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frequently they would either approve the operation or say
{
3 2
no These operations had to be planned well in advance because
1
5
the tides had to be right, the moon had to be in the proper
L
phase for communications and this type of thing . And these
5
things , all these were coordinated with the Joint Chiefs of
6
Staff, the Navy , the Coast Guard , the FBI _ If we were
7 exiltrating people, the Immigration and Naturalization Service
8
Every Government agency or enforcement agency or military
9
agency that had any involvement whatsoever; and the entire
10 thing was coordinated.
11 Do you know f any
such' paramilitary operations
3
12 that were run unbeknownst to the Forty Comnittee?
{
4 13
A No
2
5 > 14 What kind of volume of operations are we talking
15 about?
16
A You are not talking about a very big volume of
17 operations because of the planning that had to go into these
18 things_ I would say that probably at the beight of the thing
19 they may be running three or four a month No more than that.
1
J 20 You have heard Eugenio Martinez refer to having
C
21 run
300 operations _ 7
22 A I have seen that.
Li
M 23 Is that inaccurate?
1
: 24 Well, it all depends on what is in his mind . He
4
2
25
may have considered some of the training exercises as opera-
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1
3
tions Obviously , these guys trained_ In order to run one
4 2 8 of these operations , you know , You would have to have a mother
1
3 ship in place and rubber boats and the UDT people to go in to
see if there were mines and this type of thing
on the shore
5
bfore you go . So he may have considered that all these train-
6
exercises were operations but no way dia he ever partici-
7
pate in any three or 400 active operations into Cuba
8
Now , from what specific locations were these
9 operations launched?
10 They were mostly launched from thexKeys _
11
other locations?
3
12
A Not to my
knowledge
{
0 13 Now would you describe for me the kind of hit and
2
<
% 14
run sabotage operations that were conducted?
15 Well, we conducted one hit and run sabotage against
16 the Texaco refinery .
17 What used to be the Texaco refinery?
18 What used to be the Texaco refinery .
19 MR . MANFREDI : Off the record 1
9 20 (Discussion off the record.)
21 THE WITNESS : These things ,
a great amount of planning
7
22 went into these things_ We did have a model of the refinery.
4
8
23 We agonized over the best approach to the refinery and this
5
: 24 type of thing to do the most effective damage _ This was run_ It
1
9
8 25 was successful, as I recall, not totally successful but it was
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1 a successful operation_ that, I mean they didn t do as
3
3 2 much damage as they wanted to because they had to get out
1
5 because the Cuban defense came after then It was that type
1
4 of operation that we did_
5 As I recall, another time we took a team in to burn
some cane fields Really , the classical operations that we
7 did in the maritime activities were the infiltrations and
8 exfiltrations
9 Were any CIA operations run out of Guantanano?
10 Not to my knowledge _
11 Was it impractical to use the base there for
12 Well, the base is so surrounded and has been that
1
4
13 I think if a guy went through that fence you would carry hin
E
: 14 back _ He Tyouldn t walk .
15 MR MANFREDI : Off the record _
16 (Discussion off the record.)
17 MR . MANFREDI : Back on the record_
18 BY MR . MANFREDI:
19 Are there any other categories of sabotage run out
2
20 of;"the Keys other than what You have just described?
8
21 [ell, we did lay down a cache , if you will sabotage 1
22 kits to be used by our own island agents They contained
Wi
v; 23 sugar to dump into gas tanks and metal fragments to put down
1
24 crank cases Things of this nature. 1
8
25 One of our main objects was to, of course sabotage
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all the 0il We did that with a operation _ We made our
3 2
own oil, substandard Adaitives , I should say, not oil We
1
3
contracted with an American firm for that And we shipped
2
4
it in through third countries in Europe It did hit the target
5
The thing we wanted to get at was the oil and the
6 automotive machinery on the island _ We knew it was breaking
7
down and if we could get a complete breakdown we would have
8
everything at a standstill because in those days the automotive
9
1 equipment wasn t coming in that rapidly from Europe because
10
Castro didn t hve the money to it and they weren t going ta
11 extend the credit.
12
The railroad system was in total disaster. The 1
# 13 Soviets had such a long logistics line, supply line, plus
8
3 14 the fact that the Cubans didn t like the Soviet equipinent
15 because they were used to good American equipment And these
16
were principal targets that we were trying to get to.
17 In your experience at the Agency can you think of
13 any other analogus or similar paramilitary operations run
19 from 3 base in the United States? 1
20 No 8
21 I know there has been sone paramilitary training L
22 in the United States
uj
V 23 A Oh , yes 1
24 In connection with other operations
2
T 25 Oh , sure Photocopy from
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But do you know of any paramilitary operations that
4 3 2
were actually run out of the United States?
1
3
No .
1
4 As far as you know, then , this is a totally unique
5 situation_
6 As far as I am concerned_
8
it is, yes
Now , how large a Navy was actually organized in
8 Miami? On a previous occasion you described this to me as
9 the third largest Navy in the Caribbean
10 That is right.
11 What kind of equipment did these people have?
12
A Well, we had m
honestly, everything from a canoe
1
4 13
up to three to 500 foot mother , ship. We had Boston whalers ,
1
14 rubber boats = We had a number of craft in, say , the 27 to
15 45 foot; length And they looked like real tubs They were
16 painted 'and they looked' like they wouldn t even float but
17 they had: the fastest engines in them _ They coula outrun any-
18 thing _ They were extremely well armed _ We had our under-
19 water demolition teams We had a pretty good.Navy .
1
20 Did these craft operate under non-official cover
C
21 in the Miami area? L
22 A Yes
4
23 Were there a variety of covers or was there one
1
24 firm?
2 25 No . Variety.
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Fishing companies?
3 2
Well, fishing companies , Geodetic Survey , marine
1
5
supply . In all, I think during the period that the station
1
4
and these other entities were under commercial cover , or non-
5
official cover, I think we had 100 So cover companies
6
Did any of these companies actually engage in any
legitimate commercial activities?
8
A Not to my knowledge , no .
9
None of them were any of them in competition with
10
firns in that area?
11
These are probably what we; would call devised
5
12
facilities. They were
probably registered with the State of
{
* 13 Florida and they paid taxes and this type of thing , but if one
2
4
: 14
was_ blown or became known we just crossed: that out of
15
existence and started up a new one.
16
What did Eugenio Martinez do when he wasn t running
17 these operations?
18 Well , he was down OT this is one of the reasons , as
19
I told You before, we brought him back and him under that 3
5 20 contract, that retainer; because of the years that he spent
21 under such strict operational discipline down in the Keys
|
22 Obviously, he didn' t stay down there all the time He
4
Yi
23
came back 40 I
he might come back once a month
r or something
1
1 24 like that, to see his family, perhaps once every two weeks
2
7 25 if he got some time off.
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I see. So some of these boats and personnel were
3 2
actually stationed full-time in the Keys _
1
3
A Oh , yes. Oh , sure
1
4
Were there' any operations run out of the United
5 States which involved destruction of crops Or poisoning of
6
sugar or anything of that sort?
7
What did you have in mind specifically? You mean the
8
Puerto Rican thing?
9 Well
8
that is one of- the things I had in mind _
1C Would you describe that for me?
11
A Well, this is, I guess you could term it a target of
12 opportuni This was where a vessel was carrying Cuban sugar
1
0 13
to the Soviet Union and I forget exactly now what happened to
1
14 it but I know that it got a hole below the waterline, or
15 something , and had to put into Puerto Rico for repairs.
16 In order to repair it, I guess , and get it in the
17 arydock or wherever it was , they had ta remove the sugar and
18 put it in the.warehouse and at that time I guess somebody came
19 with a to try to widen the rift between an m there was
up 3
j 20 a rift at that time between the Soviets and Cubans and to
C
21 put a harmless substance into the sugar that would make it |
22 acid, sour tasting, and it wouldn t harm the sugar or the
4
23 individual, and sone of this was done And then when it
17
24 leaked, of course, we had to get rid of it and we had a sugar
1
:
25 firm buy it back from the Soviets Photocopy from
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Bought it back from the Soviets? {
0 2
Yes.
1
3
MR MANFREDI : Off the recora_
L
4
(Discussion off the record. )
5
MR MANFREDI: Back on the record
6
BY MR_ MANFREDI :
7
Are there any other operations in which crops were
8
were there attempts to destroy crops in Cuba?
9
A No . Vo .
10 Place foreign substances in Cuban products?
11 In Cuban products?
12 Yes _ 1
0 13
A No . Not that I recall You see , Cuba really in
9
4
: 14 those days the only thing , Cuba was exporting sugar and nickel
15 The agriculture sector of the economy was in absolutely total
16 chaos God , they didn t have any citrus
8
they didn t have
17 anything , and the poor people in Cuba were literally starving
18 There just wasn t anything to eat. Ana Fidel was going around
19 with this plan
M Dn of course, there were a number of
1
20 experimental cattle ranches in Cuba_ King Ranch had one there 8
21 I forget a I
several other European and American companies that L
22 had experimental cattle ranches there and they were experiment-
4
23 with the , you know , cross-breeding and this type of thing .
1
0 24 Fidel was preoccupied with this He went up to
L
8
25 Canada and paid s100,000 for a bull and Fe S0 he just put it
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on an ola Cuban Airways airplane The damn airplane few too
2 3
high and the bull became sterile by the time he landed in
1
5
Cuba No
thought given to you know pressurizing the cabin
1
and keeping the temperature at a certain point and this type
5
of thing. So he was helping us all along the line and
this here again, we generate propaganda incompetence and this
7
type of, thing_
8
But as far as sabotaging any Cuban product, no , we
9
didn t go into that. Our object was to enforce the blockade
10
and cut off his sources of supply.
11
When was the Miani Station established?
12
As a station? 1
8 13 Yes.
0
:
8 14 I think in September 1961_
15 Ana that was several Years before you became involvedi
16 in Cuban matters?
17 Yes .
18 Do you know of any other facilities of that nature
19 within the United States, Agency facilities?
1
U 20 You mean , targeted against the opposition?
0
21 Yes . 7
22 A station a5 such?
4
23 Yes . ;
5
: 24 A No . You have sone communications facilities that
4
2
5 25 you really call stations because here again, they are not
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directed towards any domestic activity. They are in support of
3 2 overseas communications
1
5 Of course, we have FR bases and DCD offices and
4 Office of Security officers, and so forth
5 4 Right .
8 But I an talking about actual stations
7 A Operating stations , no .
8 This is the only such station in the United States
9 as far as you know is that correct?
10 4 Right _
11 And was this station established to deal primarily
12 with Cuban activities?
{
A Yes.
0 13
1
14
Cuban-related matters?
15
With Cuba , period .
Did it have, Ivhen it was established, any other
16
responsibilities with respect to Western Hemisphere activitiesd
17
Not to my knowledge
18
Entirely limited, then to Cuban activities?
19
1
Yes, and in support of Cuban activity ana other
& 20
0
countries in the Henisphere _
21
L
When You joined the group dealing with Cuban
22
5 activities, what was the size or the number of personnel
23
8
6 attached to that Station?
0 24
4
9 To that Station? Well, the Station had probably a
25
couple secret
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1
couple hundred staffers there, full-time employees of the {
{ 2
Agency, plus I don t know how many contract employees
1
3
independent contractors
8
probably another. 200 minimum _ It was
4
obviously the largest installation we had I think at its
5
height it had over 500 people in it.
6
Full-time Agency people?
7
No , no
8
Combination of contract and
9
And full-time, yes A regular employee we call a stalff
10
employee
11 Now , Ivould Martinez have been one of those contract
12
1
people?
4 13
A Yes.
8
4
3 14 Even though he was located down in the Keys?
15
A Oh , yes .
16 And what kind of facilities did the Station have in
17 Miami? Physical facilities
18 Well, they were located on the south campus of the
19 University of Florida
7
I mean , the University of Miami, at 1
20 the old Richmond Naval Air Station. It was a self-contained 3
21 unit. It was pretty well off the beaten path, in fact, damn L
22 well off the beaten path _ It was about four miles from the
Lu
4} 23 Dixie Highway inland We had our own guard force
1
: 24 Official cover?
1
8
25 No . Non-official Photocopy from
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8
1
3 Non-official cover . What was the cover?
3 2
A It was a commercial cover. It was called the first
1
5
one was called Zenith Corporation and it was set up with a L
4
President and Vice President , normal corporate setup.
5
Engaging in any business?
6
No
Now in a community of that type , Cuban community ,
8
how long could 3 non-official cover last?
9
A Well , obviously it didn t, but it was research
10
activities. Funded ~ it.is a giant mechanism when you put
11
one of these things in for the funding and this type 0f thing ,
12 forx your: ostensible customers establishing bank accounts 1
0 13
Yes , I understand _
9
3 14
A So it was a research activity ana the only people that
15
ever paid any attention to the place were the newspapers _ You
16 know , somebody would make an inquiry, You know_ we can't accept
17
any work, we are loaded with Government contracts and this
18 type of thing, and it held up reasonably well And out of
19 this one thing, of course, then we were running these innumera- 3
i 20 ble other covers with different activities. The guard
C
21 force of course, were like ~ Te
well, they wore uniforns simila
L
22
to the Pinkerton people and this type of thing. And I think
4
23 that there was T in the later days at that site I think the 1
2 24 Department of Agriculture had offices in there and some other
2
7 25 Government agencies , in other buildings , of course
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7
And this particular Station, then , was under the
1 2
supervision of the group we have been discussing?
1
5
A Yes _ They were staffed within the Cuban Operations
L
4
When did the Western Hemisphere Division resue
5 responsibilities for the Miami Station?
6 Well, when Des Fitzgerald left as Chief of the
7 Special Activities Staff and became Chief of the Western
8 Hemisphere Division, he brought it back into the Division
9 Is there presently a Miami Station?
10 Oh yes
11 And how large is it at the present time?
12 Well, since we a m I think when we closed down the 1
0 13 Cuban Operations , I don' t know how large it is at the present
2
5
3 14 time' because we are in one of these periods: where: we -are
15 reassigning people, but I think by the end of this fiscal Year
16 therevare going to be between 11 and 14 people _
17 When you joined the group in 1963 ,. what functions
18 were being performed by the Miami Station?
19 A Well, all the classical intelligence functions I 1
20 think I have lined them out at:one time Me collection of i
21 positive intelligence, coun terintelligence , paramilitary, this
L
22 type of thing - Covert action.
W
0 23 This is the list of things you gave me earlier in 1
24 the deposition?
2
25 Yes . Photocopy from
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1
3 Which of these activities , if any of then were
8 2
actually being conducted within the Cuban community in Miami?
1
3
A Well, the collection of foreign positive and probably
L
4
counterintelligence
5
So the Agency was
conducting counterintelligence
6
activities in the Miami area?
7
A Yes , sir.
8
Can you give me an example of the kinds of counter-
9 intelligence activities that the Agency would be conducting
10
in that area or was conducting in the area at that time?
l1
A Well we had a number of joint operations , as I
12
recall, with the Bureau We had identified a Castro agent that 1
4 13
came in bY small boat and when she was she came in with a
1
14
number of other people When she hit the they had a recep-
15
tion center up in Opa Loca that was really a HEW operation _
16
The Domestic Contact Division office had people out there and.
17
we did, too . Our people from the DDO were under Immigration
18 and Naturalization Service: cover When the WEW people did the
19 preliminary interrogation' of these people they had to fill 1
j 20 out forns where_ were You born, this type of thing, biographic]
0
21 type thing _ These forms would be passed to our people who would
1
22
look at the forms and based on previous experience or what
4
5
23 they might have been doing, ad they felt that perhaps they
5
{ 24 might have some information of intelligence value, they would
1
9
25 reinterrogate them
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3 It was in this manner that this gal came to our
1 2
knowledge _ We surveilled her for a long time and deternined
1
5
that obviously she was receiving messages_ and she was 1
sending messages So along with the Bureau we put a surveillance
5
on her and we obtainea a van with DF equipment in it and
6
indeed , she went on the air in the morning at 5:00 0 ' clock
77
or 4:30 or whatever it was , and the direction finder found
8
it was being beamed toward Cuba , this type of thing, and that
9
was oen of the exanples of the CI activities we were involved
10
in.
11
Were there many activities of that type?
12
1 A Not really. You have got to renember that the
4 13
Bureau 5 Cuban squad was fairly small_ I mean , it was a large 3
8 14 squad in terns of FBI squads It had 36 people on it, some-
15 thing like that, but 36 people trying to follow a couple of
16
hundred thousand Cubans around you know
0
it is pretty nega -
17
tive This was one of the reasons that obviously from
18
in those days when we had formed these revolutionary fronts
19 which were being run bY the Cuban exiles , they were reporting 1
i 20 to Case Officers and they would report on things in the
|
21 community , of people they thought were suspect and this type
22
of thing _ These leads in turn were then given to the Bureau
W
6
8
23
and it was to this extent that we ourselves involved
5
{ 24
in CI activity.
0
25
Woula it be fair to say that the involvement in CI
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1
activities in that area was primarily 2 function of the over-
8 2
whelming number of these people and the Bureau S inability
1
5
to properly staff the thing? 1
4
A Yes, yes You have got to remember , too, that a lot
5
of the people on that Cuban squad were in the legal section
of the Embassy in Havana You know, the FBI overseas is
7
known as Legal Attaches , obviously working out of the Embassy
the same as our Station was , and a lot of our Station officers
Erom Havana were down in Miami at that tine So there was a
10
relationship there that had gone over a period of years
11
between the Agency and the Bureau_
12
1 MR . MANFREDI: We will reconvene at 1:00 0'clock _
4 13
8
(Whereupon , at 11.45 0'clock a.m./ the taking of
4
8 14
the deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 1:00 P.m . , this
15
sane day.)
16
17
18
19
1
20 9
21
L
22
y
23
8
6
24 1
8
25
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AFTERNOON SESSION L
2
Thereupon_
3
1
5 WILLIAM C . STURBITTS
1
called as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA
4
5
Activities , and having been first duly sworn by the Notary
Public, wa5 examined and testified as follows :
6
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION (Cont'd)
7
8 BY MR . MANFRENI:
When we recessed for lunch you were talking about the
Miami Station Do I understand that the Miami Station was the
10
largest CIA station in the worla?
11
A The largest CIA station in the world_
12
1
At its height?
3
13
8
AJ Nothing comes anvplace close to it.
8 14
I wonder if vou could describe briefly for the record
15
what the AMOTS were.
16
A Nell, the AlioTs
were Cuban a Cuban intelligence
17
organization in exile. We full intended a E
this was part of thel
18
overall contingency nlan that US Governnent had_ Should Castro
19
1
ever be overthrown , these people would be the nucleus to go into
20
8
Cuba and form a new Ministry of the Interior.
21 L
Now , Ministry of the Interior, is that a euphemism
22
4 for Security Agency?
23
:
3 A: NVell, in nost countries of the world the Ministry of
24
Interior, unlike ours , i5 the security force, internal and
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1 And these people were Cuban exiles?
2 4 Cuhan exiles. 3
L
5 How large an outfit were the AMOTS ?
1
4 A Well, at one time Tt I can give vou the exact figures
but I knowv it well exceeded over 100, probably closer to E
6 Go ahead_
7
A_ Probably closer to 150, something like that
8 Now would that 150 persons he included within the
9 three to 500 who made up the Miami Station?
A. No . 10
That was over and above the personnel of the Miami
11
12
Station?
{
A Right.
0 13
2
1 0 These people were fulltime CIA employes weren t thev?
2 14
AS Right. WEll, let ne Dt
these people really were 15
they were being subsidized bv the Agency They were employed
16
bv #fvos cover "companies , the largest of which was called Latin
17
Ajerican"Social' Economic Research Then we had another
18
smaller group that did the interrogating and they were under
19
2
another:cover , commercial *cover
4 I just don'€ recall what it
20 8
was. But these peop.e ostensiblv were employees of these whollv
21
|
owned 'proprietaries of the Agencv . They were duly constituted
22
Y incorporated taxes all this type of thing.
23
1
The salaries of these people, although paid indirectly
24 1
were paid bv the CIA? : 25
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A That i5 right.
3 2 And was training provided them bv the Agencv?
1
5 Oh , ves .
L
4 A. You said the smaller group of the two groups that madel
5 up the AMOTS conducted the interrogations, is that correct?
6 A_ Right_
Nhen you speak of interrogations
8 are you referring ta
debriefings?
A I am referring to debriefings of newly arrived exiles
10 or perhaps exiles that had heen in the country whom during their
11
time here had acquired new information.
12 How were those ~ 5 how and where were those debriefingd
1
conducted?
0 13
2
< A Well, norna the debriefings were conducted at Opa
3 14
Loca
15
That is the Air Base?
16
A That is the old Air Base there but that 15 where the
17
reception center Was for all the Cuban refugees coming in
18
19
1
Sometimes if there was Going to be a lengthy debriefing, we had
20 9
a residence which Fe rented and the interior was changed into
21
1
small rooms like this where vou could bring people in, sit them
< 22
4 down , under controlled conditions
1
and debrief them without any
23
1
interference and this tvpe of thing_
24 1
2 For how long a period did these debriefings go on?
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A You Mean in terms of vears?
3
3 2 Yes.
1
3 A Well, I would think that I would probably say from
1
4
about 1962 , and I think the debriefings as such , of course
5 we relied principally on the airlift for the people coming out
and when the airlift was cut off which Castro did
Ar cut off
7
about, I quess about 1970 or '71, in that timeframe
I see. 8
9 A that storped the flow of the refugees , So we just
terninated that part of the activity.
1C
Well, in addition to debriefing refugees that came 11
in in the airlift, dia the smaller group of AMOTS have any other
12
[
intelligence gathering functions
0 13
2
No.
: 14
In the connunity?
18
A. Well, I can't give' you a real yes or no to that. I
16
would suppose that there is an outside possibility they could
17
have been used to debrief' people within the community, within
l8
the Cuban community , but we had in the organization m m all these
19
1
people were Cuban with the exception of we had what we call an
20 a
On-Site Case Officer, who was a fulltime staff employee and he
21 L
had a couple of assistants; including a secretary . These peoplel
22
4
were directly under his control: Though the organization as it
23
11
was set up , had their Own chief and this type of thing,
24 2
but the chief took his instructions from the On-Site Case Officeh.
9
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7 Of course, if these people went out and did some thing on
8 2 their Own , coula do things we were not aware of, obviously.
1
5
You can t 4 you know Ihat they are doing during their eight or
L
ten hours that they are going to work evervday but once they
5 leave, we don t knoly what they are up to.
6
Did they have CIA credentials?
A No sir, because were proprietary hires of this
8 conmercial cover
9
Did CIA levy anv intelligence requirements
upon these
people other than in their duties I in their debriefing
10
capacity, I should sav?
11
A No _ When
2 2 there were obviously there was 3 12
1
standard debriefing forn that covered questions of intelligence
0 13
8
<
interest or a battle, you know anything economic questions,
3 14
morale, and this type of thing. When these questions when
15
these people were cebriefed and the debriefer wrote up the
16
report, it would be sent from the AMOTS over to the Station.
17
If the debriefing report contained something of positive
18
intelligence , of that nature, the Case Officer
t E
well, not the
19
1
Case Officer but a staffer in the Station may or may not jot
20 9
down some additional requirements and ask that that person be
21 |
recontacted and asked specific. questions_
22
4
0
Now in addition to debriefing, what else did this
23
1
smaller broup of AMOTS do for the Agency in the Miani area?
24
9 A. This was their prine Durpose
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7
How large was that particular group?
3 2 A_ there were only about, I would say at the outside
1
5 I think there were about five debriefers with the support peoplel
L5
4
which would be secretaries, translators, strictly administrative
5 types . I don t think there were more than probably 12 or 15
6 in that group, 1f there were that many .
MR . MANFRRDI: Off the record.
8 (Off the record discussion)
9 BY MR . MANFREDI: Back on the record
16 Before Fve move on to further discussion of the AMOTS
11
could. you briefly describe for_ me what role the CIA plays in
12
resettling Cuban emigres?
1
A CIA doesn' t resettle Cuban emigres.
4 13
2
8 14
What Agency is charged with that responsibility?
A Health, Education and Welfare.
15
Does CIA plav any role in that process? 16
A Ne nav assist if we are asked but the idea of the whole 17
18
airlift was having relatives here. for somebodv to claim you whed
you came in s vou wouldn t become a ward of the State of the
19
1
Government, and nornally when these refugees came in, they were 20 i
processed through the Center and then they had a place down on 21 1
Biscavne Boulevard they called Freedom House and this was , of
22
W
47
course, all run by HEW , and they
M 4
if need be and had to
23
;
5 stay overnight or stay several days , HEW would put them up and
1 24
1
e care for then in Freedom House .
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Then 35 soon as they could , of course, wouid move ther
7
8 2 to the areas where wanted to resettle them , where the
1
5 relatives were, this tvpe of thing, and we had nothing to do
L
4 with that whatsoever
Turning back to the AMOTS , and to the larger of the
6 two groups , what was the name of that group again?
7 A SA SER , Latin American Social and Economic Research.
8 We can call them LASER for short?
9 A Really , they are both I
the onlv reason we separated
10
the two groups was for security because we had one group housed
over here and the smaller groun was over here_ Obviously we 11
couldn t bring these refugees into the larger establishment, So 12
1
that is we took the smaller establishment to preserve some
0
13
1
cover
2 14
Okay. What activities was the larger group engaged
15
in?
16
A WEll, the larger group was engaged in the collection
17
of intelligence. Zhey compiled dossiers on the principals
18
inside Cuba . carded aD un
they kept card files on every
19
1
refugee that came through the reception center. provided
20 i
they did do economic and social reporting . They put out a 21 1
monthly newsletter based on the information they collected
} 22
4 The information these people collected as opposed to the
23
17
information we collected , ther' s was all unclassified. That
: 24
9 came from a all the information they had came from human sources
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or overt publications. We subscribed Lt
well, the proprietary
7
1
subscribed to a nunber
8 a great many newspapers , periodicals ,
1 2
Spanish language type things .
1
5
Well, they were doing clandestine collections as well
4
weren t they?
5
A I don ' t know if You could call it clandestine. What
did you have in mind?
7
Well, would thev run agents in the community?
8
A Well, ves , there were penetrations of the Cuban
9
communi yes .
10
And that is clandestine collection , isn't it?
11
A WE11, I call that human resources .
12
All right. Where are these files now? 1
4 13
A_ They are in the Headquarters here . A great many of
{
2 : 14
them were really destroyed. It got to be rather comic_ We
15
went down there several years ago
just looking through the filesl
16
to see what kind of shape they were in and they had such great
17
information for intelligence value in there as a picture of a
18
who might be the daughter of a Cuban refugee who just won
19
a swimming Ieet. It got rather ridiculous . So Ie purged those
1
20 files and took out that material, you know
8
which just didn
21 have any pertinancy at all.
2 22
How are the files organized? You indicated before tha
4
;
23 there is a card, index card for each Cuban refugee?
3
1 24
A Right.
2
5 25
Are there soft cover files as well?
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A Yes.
3
2 For each Cuban refugee? 3
1
3 A No . Not for each Cuban refugee. I think, as I
1
4
recall, those card files were up in the milli-ns and I forget,
5 we had I guess the manilla files , probably went into the tens
6 of thousands , I would think
7 Now , is there any way to determine from those files
8 which of those exiles have become United States citizens?
9 A No way .
Has there been any effort to make such a determina-
10
tion?
11
A_ We made an effort at one time but this you can
12
{
becone nationalized out in California and your record of
0
13
2
1 nationalization wouldn + be reflected here in Nashington for
{ 14
two years. That is hor far thev are behind _
15
So I take it
16
A_ So there is no central index vou can go to. I mean,
17
there is a central index you can go to but it is not current.
13
I take it, then, that there is a possibility that the
19
1
CIA has sone files in Miani or here in Langley on Cubans who
20 9
are now American citizens?
21 |
A. Absolutely true.
22
4 Now , are any of those files likely to contain
23
E
7 derogatory information about the individuals involved?
: 24
1
8 A_ Well, no One of the things these people of
25
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course, we had targets for recruitment. It could range from
1
3 2 anything from a first mate, a captain or chief engineer of a
1
5 Cuban maritime vessel to Fidel When we targeted these people
L
4 as possible recruitments , for possible recruitment, we would ask
that all the information on that individual be assembled so thatl
we coula do a complete target study
0 =
habits , you know ,
everything right down the line In case of some of the more
important ones , of course, we had psychological studies prepared
where we had enough information. But this is one of the things
10
these people did. If we said we want everything you have on the
first mate of the 3a one of the Cuban ships, then would
11
start looking through the papers or anything else to cone up 12
1
with anything they could on what the guy' $ current activities
0 13
2
are, his background , his life habits , this tvpe of thing .
3 14
Well, the AMOTS were going to be the intelligence
15
service of Cuba?
16
AJ Right.
17
And obviously were going to perform some functionl
18
in addition to recruitment of agents?
19
1
A Right_
20
8
I take it they were trained in counterintelligence,
21 L
gathering of positive intelligence , recruitment and all of the
22
W
vi
traditional skills, is that correct?
23
8
5 A That is about right.
1 24
1
2 So I trust that they had files that were anassed for
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purposes other than recruitment?
1
2 A. Well 3
3
3
3 For example, let me ask you this. Were any of these
4
files on Cubans who were suspected or thought to be a possible
5 internal security problem?
6 A No . No . Thev dian t keep those types of files. We
would simply task then with through your sources what do you
have on So and So . Thev would not be told the reason why we
9
wanted the information on anvbody .
Well, I quess with several million fiels or several
10
million cards and tens of thousands of files it is difficult to
11
make generalizations about the kind of information that is in
12
3
those files?
4
13
< A Well, that is right.
; 14
So I guess I won t ask you to do So , but I want to ask
15
you this- I trust that there is the possibility that some of
16
these files do contain what you in the trade refer to as deroga-
17
tory information?
18
4 I would assue SO .
19
1
And that So nuch of them may some of the subjects
J
20
0
of those files may now be American citizens?
21 1
Right.
: 22
4 And finally I take it that no effort has been made to
23
;
6 study that particular situation?
: 24
9 A WEll, Ie did make an effort to do it at one time:
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You know
8 we have a traveler progran where when Cubans travel, 7
2 whether they are on an islana or perhaps other places , their 8
3
5 names turn up on nanifests and this type of thing_ Well
8
these
L
4 are put into a machine system. What we did when these cards
5 were all transferred back here in Miami, we did go through them
at randon and pick out cards and then try to match it up with
what the machine system had to see if there was updated inforna-
tion in the machine system that would show that this guy had
become a naturalized citizen, and it didn't work out. So TI
Excuse me , off the record
10
(Off the record discussion)
11
MR . MANFREDI: Back on the record.
12
1
BY MR . MANFREDI :
0
13
1
I want to straighten out confusion in my own mind
14
where these files presently reside. The cards I take it are 15
presently here in Washington?
16
4 The cards and what is left of the files.
17
That is the soft cover files?
18
A Yes.
19
1
And
20 :
A I assume they are either here or down at the
21
L
Records Center.
22
4 And where is the computer system?
23
:
J A You mean our machine system? We have
24 1
2 The machine here that you tried to match up with the
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7
1 information on the cards?
{ 2 A Right down on the third floor _
1
5 Q That is not tte hydro system?
1
4 A: no, no
5 This is a separate
6 AS This 15 3 complete
05
only the Latin American Divisioni
uses this particular systen _
8 Nhat kind of records Ted Te etrike that.
9 The AMOTS are still in existence, aren' t thev?
No 10
T +hought Mere going out in June_
11
Well, okav. are on the books until June 12
1
I see
6
13
8
A But they have all been let 9o . They were let 9o
: 14
they were all given six months ternination bonuses and told to 15
9o find a job.
16
Do they have any facilities, phvsical facilities, in
17
Miami at this time?
18
AJ no,
19
1
So there are no records in Miami?
U 20
C
A_ No . No . Ne brought all those records back here .
21 L
Did the AMOTS have law enforcement responsibilities
22
iu
4 in the Miami comunity?
23
8
6 A. No . No .
24 1
9 Any affiliation with law enforcement groups?
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Not to nV knowledge_ 1
2 What else did they do, this larger group of AMOTS that 3
1
5 was not doing debriefings?
L
4 A Well, when they were trained in trade craft we woula
5 send them to other countries , in Europe and within the Hemispherk
6 to train some of the local services in those countries. They
7
served as safe housekeepers in other countries. They served in
8
listening posts where we had audio cetdten
9
Foreign listening posts?
10 A Oh , yes , foreign.
Any domestic listening posts?
11
A No , no.
12
1
Any domestic surveillances conducted by these people?
0 13
1
A: I would assune a 00 this I cannot answer because I reall
2 14
don } t know . I know that they did a great number of things but
15
to my knowledge there wasn t any domestic surveillance
16
conducted by then
17
Now if it was conducted , and if it is a matter of record,
18
I don' t know where it coula be
19
3
What intelligence gathering activities did they
20 i
conduct in the Cuban community in Miami?
21 L
A One_ of the problens we had was within that Cuban
22
4 communitv , as I said earlier, were some of the militant anti-
23
8
5 Castro groups and this just' drove the FBI and the Coast Guard
24
9 and Custons and in general the law enforcement US Government
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agencies in Miami plus the State government enforcement agencies 1
2 up the wall and, of course, I guess it was around ~ #e the 3
3
9 Government allowed a lot of this to go on for awhile but I guess
1
about 1965 or 1964 they got a little tired of it and they
5
started to tighten up .
I am sure the AMOTS were in part responsible for proposing
alerting us and in turn we alerted the enforcement agencies when
there was going to he a raid against Cuba one of these
8
militant groups . A number of times raids were aborted, picked
up the Coast Guard or Florida Coastal Patrol or the Bureau,
1C
this type of thing.
11
These people were arrested?
12
1
A Oh , yes .
4 13
8
Prosecuted?
< 14
A Not really .
15
Any of then American citizens?
16
A Not to my knowledge.
17
This would be Alpha 66 type groups?
18
A. I don't know whether this guy I 4 well you know , they
19
1
are still after this Masferrer and this guy Donestevez. I don
20 3
know if they ever did get hin in jail but .they had hin up on
21 L
so many charges and he was a Cuban exile that made it big here.
22
4 He was 3 boat manufacturer , small boats , but whether he ever
23
17
served any time or not I don't know I know he was convicted
24 3
but he was always walking around Miami when 1 was there. So
8
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I truthfully don t know whether any of these people ever went L
2 to jaul or not.
3
1
5 Other than identifying operations militant anti-
1
4
Castro groups , what other intelligence gathering did the AMOTS
5 engage in?
A Well, of course, there was a counterintelligence
#
I wouldn t call it a project but a counterintelligence_ interest
at that time because we knew that they were infiltrating agents
8
Cubans were?
A The Cuban Government They couldn t do it very well
10
on the airlift because as I said before, the aged , infirm, and
11
young , but they did infiltrate them by small boat. And I don' t
12
1
Aa A well, we had knomledge that this was on and we did try to
$ 13
8 identify those .people whom Ie thought would be suspect.
: 14
Was that done in cooperation with the Bureau?
15
A. With the Bureau, yes .
16
Because of their manpower limitations you folks were
17
in a better position to do it?
18
A: Yes , and language-wise, too. That is always a
m
19
8
factor.
20 i
And this was conducted through the AMOTS ?
21 |
A Yes _
22
W How substantial was the counterintelligence operation
i 23
1
in the community?
24
4 WEll, it wasn't that They identified not what I
2
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would call a great number of suspect infiltrees, but thev did
{
{ 2 come up with a few promising ones and ones it turned over to the
1
Bureau , of course, we have no idea what the hell ever happens
to it because, Yon1 know , vou just unless vou personally know
5 the guy in the Bureau that is handling the case, you might as
well forget it. You have got too many other things to do
7 What other positive intelligence gathering activities
were they engaging in?
9 A Well, as I told one part of them were engaged in
10
electronic intercept_
Where was that done?
11
A Down in Florda down in Homestead
12
{
This is Southeast of Homestead?
0 13
2
< A Yes .
: 14
What ere they intercepting?
15
A Well oriqinally were set up to assist with the 16
commo for the infiltration.
17
As we phased dotvn the maritime activities, were made
18
available to intercept Cuban communications . NSA: tasks then with 19
1
the; frequencies they wanted covered and the Cuban Communications
20
8
neta: they Wanted covered such as the border guards _ Another
21 |
important one was the sugar network We had the border guards,
22
4
sugar, transportation, maritime
.
I think there was an interior
23
11
network they covered too. But all electronic intercept coverage
24 1
2 is dictated by NSA _
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L since belong to uS we could ceratin require
2 ments on them if we wanted to, which we did infrequently {
1
3 because the common interests # we have a common interest in
4
what NSA has an interest in and unless there were one particulad
5
operation going that thev wanted to cover exactly what the Cubanls
6
were doing, then we would task our people with that.
7
For instance , we knew a Cuban vessel was taking arms into
Africa and our operators saw the thing leave Havana and then
there was absolute silence. So nobody knew where the thing was
16
But we knew arns were being loaded and we finally located the
11
boat in an African port, I mean the intercept operators did, when
it0came & back on the air. And this is the type of thing . As _ 12
3
2 a matter of fact, they were unloading arms in Algiers. And 200
& 13
5
2
Cuban troops _
3 14
MR . MANFREDI: Off the record
15
(Off the record discussion)
16
MR . MANFREDI : Let' s 9o back on the record
17
BY MR . MANFREDI:
18
Were the communications were intercepting
19
1
exclusively foreign communications?
20 d
A Exclusively foreign communications
21 L
Were they intercepting any: communications,
one terminug
22
4 of which was the [nited States?
23
8
J A No.
: 24
9 These were basically Cuban Governnent communications?
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A Right.
1
1
3 On the Island?
8 2
A. Right.
1
5
Or between the Island and other locations?
4
A Yes.
5
But not between the Island and the United States?
6
A No . Let' s go Off the record on that.
7
(Off the record discussion)
8
BY MR . MANFRFDI:
9
To your knowledge were the AMO% engaging in the
10
intercept of any communications , either that facilit or else-
11
where , in the Miani area or in the southern part of the country?i
12
1 A No .
0 13
3
Of other communications?
1
14
A No.
15
Is that their only ,intercep facility?
16
A (Nods affirmative)
17
Do you know of your own personal knowledge
4 u
strike
18
that. Do you have any knowledge of any wiretaps , surveillances ,
19
1 breakins or activities of thqt type other than what we have
20 8 discussed
21
A No sir.
7
22
that were conducted by the Auors?
W
v
23
A_ No sir. I want to Fo off the record a minute. 1
: 24 (Off the record discussion)
2
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BY MR . MANFREDI: 1
{
I understand that a studv of the history of the AMOTS
3 2
5 has been prepared one of your members
4 3
1
A That is right_
4
What is his name?
5
I think it is Joaquin I can t remember the last
6
name . The poor guy is dead now anvway . Nell, I will just have
to get that for youa
What is the title of the study?
AJ The title of the study
4r Tu it is part of the historical
16
series of the Miani Station and I think it is just entitled "Thel
11
It AMOT Organization.
12
{
What is the historical series of the Miami Station?
0
13
A. ~It was done when Paul Hennessey was down there. What 1
14
we try to do as we go along, from year to vear , is set aside
15
what is considered to be sone of the more siginificant things
16
the station might do or that might occur in the station personnel
17
wise, this tvpe of thing, and then these things are written.
18
I see,
19
1
A At intervening periods of time
20
8
0 When Ias this particular report prepared, the AMOTS?
21 L
A I think it was prelared in 1967 or '68 .
22
W
It is a fairly lengthy document, isn' t it?
62 23
8
A Yes .
J
1 24
And purports to be a
fairly complete history of the
9
7 25
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activities of the AMOTS? 7
2 A It starts back in 1959 when we first started using
{
1
5 this gent.
L
4
First started using what?
5 A_ First started using, I forget what his name was
6 I see. Is it a chronological study of their activi-
ties?
A Yes .
8
9
And you have a copv of that in your custody?
A, Yes.
10
I would like to see that' document And we will try
11
and obtain it through Mank Knoche S office.
12
5
{ A
4 13
3
4 Excuse me just for a minute.
3 14
(Off the record. discussion)
15
MR . MANFREDI: On the record _
16
BY MR . MANFREDI: I wonder if vou would 0A let me ask vou
17
this. There have been some allegations in the press that
18
prominent newsmen in be Miami area have in the past been agents
~
19
1
of the CIA.
20
Mr . Olsen just cane into the office and I asked him to join
21
u5 because sone of vour involvenent in Cuban activities in the
22
Agency in the Miami area touch peripherally on some of the thing]
23
had has been charged with investigating , So I am going to turn
24
the examination over to him for whatever time he needs .
25
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MR . OLSFN : Thank vou, George.
1 RY MR. OLSEN :
3 2
0i Can gou begin, since I have not been in on the begin-
3
ning of the interview here, can you start off, Mr . Sturbitts,
giving je about a one or ~wo minute resume of what your
contacts were with the Cuban elements in Florida and elsewhere
6
withing this country on behalf of Ehe Agency?
A Mell I was a menber of the Special Activities Staff
which was in effect the Cuban task force at Headquarters and the
Miani Station functioned under the Special Activities Staff in
1G
a variety of intelligence collection and operations .
11
Nho was the head of the Special Activities Staff?
12
0 Desmond Fitzgerald_
1
5
13
And who was his inmediate superior?
1
2 14
Dick Bissell_ Excuse ne No . At that time it was
13
Dick Helms _ He Was the DEP
16
Deputy Director for Plans?
17
Deptuty Director for Plans
13
What period of tine are we talking about now?
19
A Me are talking in the period' of 1963 to 1965 _
20
MR . IANFREDI: Off the record.
21
(Off the record discussion)
22
BY MR . OLSEN :
23
So vou were not involved in this Special Activities
24
Group during the 1959 to '61 ?eriod?
25
A. 4o
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O
Or the period leading uP :o the Bav of Pigs?
1
{ No .
2
And you were not involved in this program at all during
1
the same time that 5. Ioward Hunt Xas involved in it?
Jo .
Do vou know what the position was Mr Hunt occupied in:
connection with the Cuban operations of the Agency during the
period of 1959 to '61?
A To ny recollecticn, oward Hunt was on the Covert
Action Staff dealing in propaganda
1C
Nas this propaganda cirected to the Cuban people in
11
this country?
12
1 No . Cuban people abroad
~
4 13
And what-Ivas his connection with the planning for the
3
2
: 14
Bav of Pigs?
13
A I would have to review the record to really answer
16
thac: I don t know
1 7
Didn't he spend an awful lot of time in the Miami
12
area?
19
He commuted quite 2 bit.
1
20 Between Mashington and
21 Washington anci Miami
22 and Miami During the period of 1960 and early
23
'61?
5
24
Righta
25
Mr. Hunt Ias stated in his interviews and in his
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1 published materials that he was the person who was in charge of
3
2 organizing a political unit among Cubans in this country which {
1 would constitute the Cuban government in exile. Do you recall
where that was?
5 1 That coula be guite true.
Have You zeviewed Xr. Sturbitts, the Agency' s entire
files relating in anv vav to the Cuban operations and particu-
larly with reference to whether reflect anv contacts
9
bewween the Agency and Frank Sturgis?
1C
Yes.
Or Frank Fiorini?
There is no relationship.
12
3
{ Is it Your testinony that the records and files of
4
13
2
the Agency reveal no Official or unofficial contact of any
3
14
nacure wich Frank sturgis?
12
A To ny knowledge ihat is true
18
I take it from that that you are emphatic in your
17
testimony that he was never an emp_ loyee of the Agency?
12
A Extremely emphatic.
19
1
And vou are also equally emphatic to the effect that
j 20
C
he was never a contract agent of the Agency?
21 |
A__ Exactly-
2
22
1 Do You know whecher he ever served in the capacity
23
1
of being an informer or informant to the Agency?
: 24
4 It is possible that he could have been a source. {
25
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they
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1 YOn mean 4 source of JdnD
{
2
Source of information of another aqent. Another {
1
3 agencv agent.
Do the files of the Agency reflect anv matter? 4
5 To mv knomledge I rion 1 t recall any thing like that buc
it is entirely possible that that could have happened without
7
being a matter of record
Do the files of the Agency reveal any instance what-
6
ever 17 Ihich Frank Sturgis ~as ever asked to undertake anv
kind of an operation or activity on behalf of the Agency?
lc
To my knowlecige. Rothing_
13
Do the files of the Agencv reveal any evidence
12
:
< whatever that Frank Sturgis was ever paid anything directly or
13
2
<
indirectly bv the Agencv?
: 14
To mv know] 20
18
Now , when Vou sav J to mv knowledge, no I in answer
16
to some of these questions, do I understand that to mean that
17
you are giving uS the full benefit of your knowledge on the
12
basis of a full review of the Agency' s records and files?
19
1
On Frank Sturgis, ves_
& 20
0 Okay. During the period of time that you were with
{ 21
1
the Special Activities Group Irom 1963 to '66 , first of all,
22
can vou tell uS when that beqan in 1963?
23
7 When the Special Activities Group
24
No _ When vour contact with the Special Activities
25
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Group began?
5 2 A It began T u
well, it began around June of '63.
3
L Now , with particular reference to the last half of
L
1963 , including whatever period in June 63 mav not have been
involved were there a creat nany Cubans in the southern United
States wno were aczive in revolutionary fronts that were bein
sponsored by the Agency?
8 Wellm vou mean Acency sponsored fronts?
9
Yes .
1 The Agency subsicized these fronts in an effort to
have unity rather than these split factions , split anti-Castro
11
factions_ Obviously the leaders of the fronts knew that the
12
1
CIA was subsidizing. Supposedly the people that joined these
4
13
1
fronts did not know they were being subsidized by the Agency
2 14
or she [.S . Government _
17
6a But when vou say supposedly, does the fact appear
16
to be otherwise?
17
WE1l, based on m experience Evith the Cubans and this
16
type of thing, and their penchant to talk, I would think that
19
1
it wouldn't take long for kzowledge of any subsidy to surface
J 20
G
{
itself_
21
1
Nas it your opinion and impression at that time Mr.
2 22
5 Sturbitts, that a areat many Cubans considered thenselves to be
23
;
{ involved in the CIJ orqanizacions?
24
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And again ith particular reference to the Miami
3
2 area? 3
1
4 Yes .
Was there also Cuban activity of this sort elsewhere
in the (nited States? 1 an asking now particularly with
reference to New Orleans.
A There was sone Cuban presence in New Orleans . I am
really not familiar with #hat happened in Hew Orleans that was
sort Of a sideshow E0 Miami.
But the same is To it is possible that some or the
same Cuban organizations Xnich were being
sponsored or funded
12
by the Agency also had ac-ivities or operations in New Orleans?
4
1
:: 1 I don' t Xnow 1f 1 can answer that, whether had
1
the same functions I kncw that some funding
arrangement for
subsidizing the organizations in Miami was carried out through
New Orleans
Well, can vou he nore specific about what vou mean
that?
1
Well, in other Ivords , to fund these organizations
we 1
20
were subsidizing there nad to be sone ostensible source of '
5
21
income for then to continue What they were doing . A great |
number E L well
0 not 2 great Jumber but a number of 3 22 select
W J
22
People Iere m I well
0 were selected and then were ;
5
24
talked to, to pose as trustees , if vou would ,
or directors
or
2
25
whatever you might have of :ome of these organizations in order
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1 to get the funding thrcugh to the organizations_
3
2 These people were nornally prominent people and n nD {
1 And did they get funded bv the Agency , then, through
the mdeium of prominent and well-to-do people?
As These well-fo-ro people ostensibly would call a friendi
of theirs that had hee? nade trustee of another type of activit?
and say , You know ve 2re trving to assist these Cubans in this
type of thing . Could zour organization give 11S any money , and
the guy: on the other end woula sav , sure, #F can probably lend
You 825,n00 or something iire that, or donate s25 000 . This is 1C
the Iay the funding went into the fronts_
And Nas some of that funding arranged throuqh people 12
1
in #el Orleans?
0
13
1
I woula think 80 1 believe so,
2 4
Nere anv of ane people in New Orleans through whom
that funding operation as effected people who turned out to pe
-6
involved in the investigations conducted Jin Garrison?
17
Jot +o Av %nowledce
2
How about David Ferrie? Nas he ever connected with
19
1
the Agency in anv nanner at all in providing funds or assistance
J
20
0 to Cubans or Cuban sroups?
21 1
I couldn' t sav _ 1 am just not familiar with Te Mtt we had
< 22
j a great manv people that diid this_
23
1
Fow about Clay Shaw? Was Clav Shaw ever used as a
0 24
8
funding source?
25
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1
This I do not know either.
{
1 2 Pardon?
1
4 This I don + know .
4 BY MR . MAMFREDI:
2 [here Tvouic that information be available?
4 Well, we have 7 suy chat used to work with me who was
7 down in New Orleans at that -ime He would probably know .
6 Is he in the Duilding?
Yes.
What is his name?
Bill Kent.
1
Bill Kent'
12
:
{ A. Yes.
4
13
:
< BY MR. QISEN :
3 14
Who is 3illken {ith now? Which department?
12
A Fe is still with the DDO
18
BY' MR_ MANFREDI:
1
Western Henisphere Jivision?
12
No He is on one of the staffs. He is on the m nA I
19
think Career Management Group Staff_
20
Is he officed near You?
21
1 No He is Gown in che basement.
22
BY :R. OLSEN :
22
Do the Agency Eiles reveal who the intermediaries were
24
that Were nsed to nrcvide funds +o the
25
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AS Oh , ves.
7
I I to the Cuban movements? 1
1 Yes.
Do You know whehter do vou Xnow the identity of anm
of them in New Orleans?
4 No #o . Tctally infaniliar with anything that took
llace in New Orleans
I take it that Frank Sturgis was never an intermediary;
for providing funds to the Cuban fronts?
The files shat I 'Jave rion' t reflect it.
1 think we covered this already just a few minutes
but let me make sure that we have got it on the record _
12
1
I understood vou to sav that it was your impression in 1965
0
13
2
3
that large numbers or Cuban exiles Cuban people in the souther;
2 14
United States, talked ahout and believed that they were involvea
3
in the CIA sponsored activities. Is that true?
1f
A That is right:
1~
Nas i2 also vour understanding and vour impression
that there was 3 deal or talk among this Cuban element in
19
?
the southern Unized States about plans or prospects for the
2C
assassination of Fidel Castro?
21
A. I would sav no. 1 don' & think there was a &r You have
22
cO remenber that chese people were enbittered: They lost
23
their homeland theiz possessions , they lost everything and theyi
24
blaned it all on one nan.
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That is Fiedl Castrc?
A That i9 right, and they would probably verbally do
2
anything they could to qet rid of him.
Was there a lot of talk about killing Castro among
these Cubans?
A. I would say amona the Cuban exiles there probably was
a lot of talk about thac.
Did vou participate vourself in the overhearing of
such conversations?
No_
Was this a macter of some thing that was reported to
you?
12
3 Mell_ it was Mn 4 I really don t renenber what the
3
i3
source Of it was but I Xnow in my discussions with people at the
2
<
Station and Ezom Mv visits Gown there and that type of thing
that this subject alwavs cane up. Nhat were they going to do
1: with Fidel? Mow are thev aoing to get rid of him and this type
17 of thing. I don' & nean the Aqency people. This is what the
12 Cuban exile community was aiscussing_
12 Yes . Do wou know ivhat Howard Munt was doing for the
23 Agency in 1963?
21 A Nell, it seems to ne he Was here at Headquarters in
22
'63 and 1 think he was assigned to the European Division of the
22
DDP
2+ This is Your est recollection
22
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4 Yes
Tr Ir at the noment. Is it possible that he was with
8
Domestic Operations Division in the field of proprietaries
engaged
4_ 1 guess vou ere right, Yes . I believe he was there.
Did %ou zersonally know Howard Hunt?
A_ Jo .
Never met nin?
8
I met hin. Znat 15 all I can t say I know nim
You Tould roc {ave known anything about his where-
1C
abouts on any particular :av , then. Is that true?
11
A Can We go off the record?
12
:
(off the record discussion. )
13
:
?HE NITNESS : Let' $ go nack on the record_
2 14
BY MR - OLSEN :
15
I would like to have it on the record
16
A Do you have a particular day?
17
0 No. I an just asking vou if vour acquanitance with
19
Hunt was such that YO Moula have known of his whereabouts on
19
any particular dav ,
20
A :0,
21
Nas it very infrequently that you ever saw hin?
22
4 Oh , I would see niq in the halls, this type of thing,
23
but bunp into hin herhaps downtown on the street:
24
Sut vou would have no occasion for. knowing from one
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to the next xhere ne was?
3
J 2 4_ Mo
8
1
3 Have von ever conducted any kind of inquiry on behalf
of the Agency as to where ne was on :Jovenber 22 1963?
A Yes_
And then rid ~Q1l conduct that incuiry?
A I nave done it twice that I recall and the nost recend
one was I guess I E I am just_ trying to think- Nell, it wasn' €
too long ago hecause we did have an inquirv and Me obtained the
time and the attendance records from the Office of Finance whicn
showed that Howard Hunt was on sick leave on that day.
Was this just fairly recently?
12
;
A_ Yes.
13
3
<
I understood Sron Ishat files I have seen , Mr
:
Sturbitts _ that the only records that Iere available from the
Office of Finance showed that he had had nine hours of sick leave
during the two-week Pav reriod ending the 23rd of November but
that che records were not available as to how much sick leave
or annual leave had been taken on any particular
2
Well
20
A I nistaken?
21
As I recall he was in a duty status one dav and a
22
sick leave status the next and back to the next
23
I would have to check &hat with my Budget and Fiscal Officer .
24
He is the chan that cot that for me:
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1 Can vou check that for
3
2 Sure.
1
3
2 3
And give US the results of that?
1
{ A Yes.
4
Because this is much more detailed information than
I have been previouly aware is available in the files of the
Agency _
1 All right. I Will do that.
8
BY MR . MANFREDI:
9
Do vou want to make a note of that?
1C
Let me have 3 piece of paper
12
YOn might also want Mr . Sturbitts phone nuber which
12
{ is 351-5106_
4
13
2
2
THE MITNESS : That was 22 Vovember, right?
: 14
BY MR _ MANFREDI:
15
That is the
16
1963.
17
In response :o whose inquiry was that investigation
12
made?
7
19
1
I don't know I would have to look that UP, too. I
20
C don' t recall exactly who asked for it. I don t know whether
5 21
1
I 'will just have to check that. I don' t know who it was.
22
4 And the date? Do vou have any idea when you made the
23
3
7 inquiry?
: 24
2 No . But Ican find out from the B and F guy , hopefull y
25 ;
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1
You said there was a previous inquiry?
3
8 2 A. Yes. The previous inquiry came from Archie Roosevelt
1
who is now retired and was at that particular time the Chief of
European Division.
5 When was that inquiry received?
A. That was about a vear ago , I guess .
BY MR . OLSEN :
About the first tine these photographs began to be
9
circulaced?
1C 4 Yes_
11
About the bums in Dallas?
12 A_ Yes, and actually I think this 4 n Archie' s inquiry
1
4 13 came from sone magazine or newspaper man in Europe. Archie was
1
2 14
Chief: Qf Station, London , Zor a long time and he apparently
25
made a lot Of acquaintances over there among the media.
16
This i5 somethina vou are relating to Der Sterm
Magazine?
17
That is riqht_
i2
19
And did I understand vou to sav thqt in checking with
1
the Office of Finance that it Nas positively ascertained that
c 20
0
Hunt was on sick leave on Novenber 22nd?
21 7
22,
A Well, I Will have to check that: That is the way
J
23
I understood it but I did cet this through our Budget people whoj
{
5 have the contact with the Office of Finance .
24
And that ne was on annual leave the before?
7 25
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1
A No _ He was on a status the before, on sick
3 leave, and then on duty status the following
1
BY MR - MANFREDI:
L
Nas there any effort to determine what Mr Hunt' s
previous pattern ~ith respect to sick had peen?
4 (Nods in negative)
BY MR . OLSEN :
November 22, 1963 , was a Fridav. When you sav that
records reveal thac he was on a duty status the next
It was 2 ?ricay. Then I was mistaken_
Does thac nean he was on duty the following Monday
or on the next dav Saturday?
12
{
i2 No . On the following Monday . I didn't realize the
0
2
<
22na Xas a Friday.
2
1z
Will vou checi that thing for uS and give us a brief
memo together with whatever supporting
4 Q
copies of supporting 10
docuents You_ can 2ind?
Okay.
12
As prompcly as possible on this question. 19
1
I think that covers the subject matter_
20
:
MR . MANFREDI : I can sive you another moment if You want- 21
L
Can vou think of anything else?
22
3 MR . OLSEN : I shink that is all.
23
;
; MR . MANFREDI: ff the record_
24
:
2 (Off the record discussion)
25
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:
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1
BY MANFREDI:
2 2 I am sorry
1
the 1 nterruption but over the long
I think probably
I saved vou some time _
We are about newspaper
editors when
we were inte
5 rupted
3 M or when I invited the interruntion .
I guess I ough
to be fair.
Is it not 4 fact that the Agency had some relationship
W; some prominent
Jewspaper officials
in the Miami area?
Yes.
And what was the na ture of that relati_ onship?
11 Traditionally
che Chief of Station maintained
the
12
relationship With officials
of the
<
Miami Herald particularly
13
Latin" American
eai as Tvell as rela tionships
{
with staff
: 3{
'sembers of 1 think it is the Miami :ews and
tejother
stringers" for
1: newspapers and periodicals stationed in; Miami
Nhat
was the Purpose of those relationships?
4 I couldn 1 t sav what the prupose of the relation
was. I mean, che same reason that we establish
a relation-
with the Press in this 1 town . There were certain
J Ec
micht cone to the attention
thal
9
of the press involving
true names
5 2 -
and incidents that ve felt should perhaps not. be surfaced
particular at anyl
2 22 tine_
22 Do vou have Xnow of use of the press in Miami
24
for propaganda
purposes?
25 Mo No
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for
talking
:
tor ,
:
i+,
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ship
ship
things
1
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7
Nould You know if that were the case?
0 2
No _ I really wouldn t know , but the relationship
was 1
3
a two-way street. It wasn t simplq that we assisted these 1
6
people a5 well as they were assigint uS
What assistance would You render for members of
6
the press in ~4iami?
Well, in the case of the Latin Anerican editor
6
we would put hin i2 contact with the Chiezs of Stations of
C
areas he periodically visited and the Chiefs of Stations
1
would give hin background briefings and clis type of thing
1
on the developments within a given countzz_
12
1 Was that done evenhandedly for various newspapers?
3
13
8
Predominantly , I would say probably the; Miami
t
3 14
Aerald received probably 2 little more attention than the
12
other papers principally because: it was 8 large paper and
l2 their Latin American editor traveled a great deal throughout
the Hemisphere_
12
Was he also used as a source?
19
No 1
: 20
5
Do newspapernen in Washington, D.C. , receive
21 similar briefings?
L
22 Yes_
uj
6i 22
0 We talked with "r.Olsen for a short period of time
J
{ 24
about fronts, revolutionary fronts How large were these
3
25 organizations?
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nbh 2
96 7
Well che nembership varied _ As I said, we were
{ 2
principally interested in the leadership of the organizations _
1
3
Once the organization was established and the leadership took
over , then ould take care of enlisting the , I guess ,
5
getting membershi? from the Cuban exile conmunity to join_
6
What 7ere their functions the fronts?
7
A Well . it was to bring
some unity out of this chaotic;
8
thing of the splinter groups and get T as I said, it was a
political organization in exile
10
Jid conauct any operations?
11
No , not that I know of _
12
1 Just 1xe a political party?
0 12
Like a colitical party .
1
14
How many of tnese fronts were there?
1
There were several of then. I really don t remenber
i6
the names of ther. The FRD was one The Revolutionary
17
Democratic Front. 1 guess that was probably the biggest one
12
And' there were sore others _
19
The RDF? 1
20 8 FRD
21
I see
1
22
Front Revolutionary Democratic It is the
4
23
1 Democratic Revolu-ionary Front _
{ 24
411 right. Are these groups still in existence?
9
25
I woula ~hink not - I really don
t know _
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abh 3 8
1
Is there a CIA station in Puerto Rico? {
8 2
1 No There Tvas but there isn't any more There
1
3
hasn t been one there for Years _
4
When was it disbanded?
5
I think the station was established around 1958
and perhaps i2 was established before chat. I think it
7
went out 0f existence in 1958
3
Do You XJoiv it went out of existence?
9 Jo , 1 :on' #S I don t have any idea.
1C
Do vou Xnow what function it was performing?
11 (Hods in regative.)
12
You nenticned earlier that Bernard Barker worked 1
4
13 in the Cuban coruunity for the CIA?
1
14 He worked {ith these fronts , toc .
13 Nas ke zerforning any intelligence function in the
16 community?
17 Intellicence Eunctions Nell
12 Nas he collecting infornation?
19 Sure If *e got information that he thought was 1
20 worthwhile he wouia Zass it on
0
21 Now woulc :e have been considered one of the three |
22 or 500 persons empioyed or assigned to the Miami Station?
4
m 23 {es. Ke was a contract employee_
J
:
24 Ind were intelligence requirements levied on such
1
5 25 contract emplogees?
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# 3 9
8
Norma the requirements are pretty standard,
3
7 2
or thev ere at sac tine But here again, You always have
1
ad hoc type things that pop up from time to time , and have to
4 be surfaced _
Some of these contract employees Mere , then , in
the business ci ccilecting intelligence information in the
Cuban comunities in Miami
8 zight
NOl , I shink we finisned witn the AMOTS but can
1C You think of any cener functions performed bY the AMOTS thac
1- we have not discussed in the course of the afternoon?
12 No , not -eally. :0
1
3
13 I think zou previously described Lhen for me as tne
1
14 eves and ears intz the Cuban community
12 Risht _
16 And they actually had a physical facility in Miami
17 which Was their headquarters , did .they not?
l2 Exactly_
19 Ind there Ias a CIA Case Officer Ivho managed to super-
1
J
2C vise that facilitz
:
21 Tes_ 1
22 Now , Ihac has nappened to -the AMOTS?
4
23 The AMOTS Ivere cradually phased down and will 9o
1
24 out of existence L _ che ANOTS are out of existence, aren ' t
:
2 25 they? Isn t it iie AMDUKES or 3 I these are the radio, people
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abh 5 1
Ana the AMDUKES are the AMOTS ?
5
1 2
Tle AMDUKES are AMOTS but the; are radio people _
3
They are the ones that conducted the intercept
4
for VSA?
5
Yes_ Tke only reason Ie use two different names
6
is that in each cf these things in those cays we had to have
a project which nad to be renewed every zear to get the
8
funding
9
So ANDUKE ani AMOT
1C
Synonynous
11
are crzatonyms?
12
{ Yes
4
13
Do the initials stand for anything other than
:
<
} 14
No Jus ?ick then out_ If You want to encrypt
13
sonebody You just call downstairs and they give you a
16
crypE _ You con 2 nave anything to do with it. The AM happened
17 atxenat particular time to be the Cuban aiograph.
12
Now turring to tne Miani Station involvement for
19 assistance to the Secret Service in connection with the
20 political conventions in 1968 and 1972 , would you briefly
21 describe for Je che nature of the assistance provided by
22
the Agency :0 the Secret Service?
23
At che raquest of the Secret Service we conductea
24
nane traces 3n i.dividuals Tvhom the Secret Service wanted
25
sraced _ These i-cluiedthe employees of all hotels in Miami
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DELREI 100
sh 6
Beach where any convention activities Were to take place,
8 2
employees of catering services linosine service, employees
1
3
L Ia
what do they call it, the Civic Center in Miami It
in
L
4
is big auditorium down there I forget what they call it.
a
5
Foreign news people and nedia , television, radio people_
6
Nere these people on Whoa name traces were requested
7
all foreign nationals?
8
Al1 foreign nationals
9
Tvas there any check made to deternine whether
16
any of them Iere American citizens?
11
Ne levied on the Secret Service as a
requirement
12 that they have identified these people by nationality before
1
4 13
we fould run a nane trace Inadvertently , at one time
1
14 they cid submit a list, a rather long list of American citizens
15 whicn Ie promptly sent pack to then and told them we could
16 not trace.
17 And this practice was followed both in 1968 and
12 1972?
19 That is right.
1
20 And Ivhere Iere these names traced?
3
21 They were traced back here and also in Miami The 7
22 Miami Station dic their name check and we did our name check
7
23 In the case Of Cubans probably the Miami Station had
here 1
24 information on the Cubans than we would have back here
: more
0
~ 25 But the names (vere traced through Agency files?
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OELRET
101
;oh 7 1
1 Through Agency files
2 Nas Secret Service receiving cooperation from FBI
8
3
< 3 on this as well?
1
4 A Oh ,
5 And in effect,they were getting an all-Agency name
6 check
7
Right _
8 on people Ivho might pose a security threat
9
Yes.
to 3 candidate?
10
Mell_ they were just trzing to cetermine who night
11
be 3 security threat.
12
1
That is right Potential threat.
8 13
Yes
3
14
For what political parties L r strike that.
15
In 1968 was this service provided for both political
16
conventions?
17
3oth political conventions
18
Mere they both hela in Miami that year?
19
17
Vo . I guess it was in 1972 they were both held
20 1
there. I think it ~as just the Democratic in 1968 _
21 7
These requests did cone fron the Secret Service
22
rather than
23
J
From the Secret Service and it Ias Te the Director
24
of the Secret Service came to the DCI and asked him for
25
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3
ves
3
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102
L
1
support.
{ 2
1 Do You still maintain the records with 3 respect Zo
1 that tracing activity?
4
I have 2ll the names that have been
5 traced.
And are on little cards down in
6 your files?
Yes_
7
Why have those records been maintained?
8 Is there
any reason those records nave been maintained?
9
Nell because we were told to maintain then when
10
tte Matergate thing broke
11
I see.
12
And since then nobody will destroy
0 13
anything _
1 Ok _ Jre you aware 0f any picke at various
14
2laces in the countzy that has been conducted by Cuban
15
sroups?
16
I was not aware of it until I was told of it.
17
I still don t know whether this was a spontaneous action on 18
the part of these Feople cr whether
were instructed to
19 1 do it. I tried to run tkat down and I have been unable to
i 20
5 At What locations has it been reported that pickets
21
1
vere located?
22
W
Airline offices in Newv York , Miami I think
0
another
23
J place . I forget where it was
1 24
Have you in fact been able
2 to verify that these
25
Persons were Cubans?
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060060
8
Nell
8
it is 3 matter of record in the AMOT history
{
1 2
that this indeed did take elace ow what I have been trying
1
5
to deternine is whecher the On-Site Case Officer authorized
1
4 this whicn I fully coubt .
5 #ho was the On-Site Case Officer?_
6 At that time it Xas a fellow by the name of Tony
Sforza
8
Is he still alive?
9 Tes he is corn 17 Miami_ But I just do not know
10 whether this Ias a unilateral action on the part of the
11 AMOTS against the countries that were then trading with
12 Cuba , notably Spain and Great Britain and France.
1
0
13 Other than this incident which Me T strike that_
8
4
} 14 Nhat kind Of an investigation have You conducted?
15 I have talked to people, which is really all you
16 can Go There is no other way You can do it.
17 You have been unable to determine who , if anyone
13 authorized this activitz? Eave you been able to identify
19
any of the persons who participated in the picketing?
1
4
20 Jo
0
21 Nith what frequency did this activity occur? L
22 I don' t have any idea_ I only know of one instance
7
23 This Was in Mew :orb City?
1
: 24 New York City and Wiani
2
25 Do you know or any organized political activity that
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h 1 03
J the AMOTS engagea in?
8 2
To my knowleage , they didn t engage in any .
1
3
tical activity.
1
4
Do You know of any other activities that they have
5
conducted within this country , they or any of their members
6
have conaucted withi? this country that we have not already
7
discussed this afternoon?
8
No
9 Any Folitical activities? operations?
10
No . Not really. Jf course we have used certain
11
select indivicuals to what we call hand-nola defectors Cuban
12
defectors. In other words live with then until they are 1
0 13 resettlea ana this type of thing. And this is another activit
3
{
3 14 they engaged in. But other than that, I can t think of any-
15 thing else
16 Do You know of iny criminal activities that have
17 been attribited to
18 I have heard of same allegations which have never
19 been proven_ 1
J 20 Mhat are the allegations?
j
21 The 2llegations concern break-ins and surveillances 1
2 22 and this type of thing _
W
67 23 Have those allegations been made with any fre-
J
24 quency?
1
2
~ 25 {ell, I forget who it was. It was during the
SecRE
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Any
:
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105
7
Natergate trial Sone cf these allegations that came out
8 2
and I think were carried in the Anderson column but we
1
3
made file checks and this type of thing _ One particular L
4 activity
was supposed t3 nave been carried out in Rockefeller
5 Center in New York and 1= turns out it was taken out of
6 context. It was 0 traini-g Jission
ana 1
-raining exercise.
7 These guys were being trained in surveillance in New York
8 and they were simply asked to go into a branch of the Manhaztzi
9 Chase Manhattan and 13 cone back out ana then they iere
1C supposea to diagram the Layout of the bank_ And this to :one
11 of chem meant casing the iank Ihen in fact it was just 2
12 nemory exercise_ 1
0 13 Mith Ihat Irecuency were those kinds of trainirg
8
2 14 exercises conduczad?
15 Well, ~henever -here Das an whenever it was fel2
16 that these people , aeleczea individuals , were to be trained
17 in trade craft.
18 And did &heir =zade craft training include such
19 things 2s surveillance? 1
20 Sure 9
21 And breax-ins? |
22 No Not creak-ins_ Vor surreptitious entry. As I
i
23 said_ in the case of this zarticular thing, it was misinter- 1
: 24 preted as casing the han: . Zhese exercises were given
a
2
T 25 coula have walked iJio {cir jffice, your outer office and
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ph 12
106
3
said
Mt the instructor could have said two hours later tell
3
8 2
ne what is in that outer office? What is the layout of it?
1
3
This is just for observation_
L
4
You stated earlier none of those allegations have
5
been proven _ Mave any of then been proved to your
6 satiszacticn?
7
Jo Ithink Fe disprovea then to my satisfaction
8
I take it You do not believe they took place other
9 than the training exercise?
1C
no . Jo I don t believe they did.
11 Do You know of any instances where members of that
12
group have broken in, made any other type of illegal entry
1
rd 13 in this country?
1
14 Jo
15 :ave You ever been present at any discussions of
16 the legality or illegality of naintaining stations like the
17 iami Station [vithin his country?
18 Legality? No
19 HOwv about the Propriety?
1
20 {ell to ay knowledge , that really never came up . 3
21 Vo one to mY knowledge , has ever questioned the legality or 7
22 the propriety of having the Station
W
4
23 There have been sone allegations in the press and
1
24 elsewhere about possible Eisuse of Cuban exiles nembers of 1
2
8
25 that communi the CIA 4re you aware of those?
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Oelr6I 107
3h 13
1
No
8 2
Ae received some correspondence and I have seen some
1
5
articles ttat suggest that the Cuban comnunity is sort of
4
3 resource that is occasionally tapped by the CIA for various
5
operaticns in this country _
6
You Rean chis country?
Yes _ Picketing was one example There were also sone
other examples of unusual activities Do YOu have any knowledge
9
of rse by the CIA of Cuban nationals or eriles for any type
10 of operation Within his country?
11
No .
12
Do You Xnow whether or not the Agency has proviced
1
$ 13
any financial support for Cuban businessmen in this countr;?
11
:
14
Jo_ Not 20 ny knowledge
15 Other than the naintenance of cover?
16
Jo.
17 Establisnment of businesses?
18
No
19 No? 1
J
20 No
j
21 In the course 0f our discussions today we discussed L
22 che: AOTS the AMDUKES _ various political front groups ,
W
4 23 revoiutionary front groups Are there any other emigre ,
1J1
: 24 Cuban enigre sroups in the Niami area which have' been supported
2
7
25 the Agency , either financially or otherwise?
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##@#840 & 108
1
1 Not to ny knowlecce_
2 Are You familiar with che appendix that was attached 8
1
5 co Mr_ Colby?s statement?
4 4 Ies _
5 Did you nave sone role in drafting that?
6 You mean the Niami Station thing?
7 Appendix J, entitled, "The Miami Station 01
3 Tes_
9 You wrote it?
Yes 10
It has a familiar ring about it. There are references
11
12 to indigenous organizations_ emigre organizations Are
3
there any others other than the ones wwe have been discussing?
0 13
4 Not to ny knowledge_ Jhere: are, fou now , if zou
} 14
want to call:it an organization, we did, you know_ subsidize
15
che~Rellwout of Juanita Castro
16
Yes , I am faniliar with that.
17
rou are familiar with 2ll that and that is by the
18
board now , too
19
1
She was doing
20
3
Fropaganda
21 L
propaganda broadcasts
22
5 Yes
23
J7
Do You have any personal knowledge of what kind of
0 24
3
intelligence-gathering activities are conducted in the Miami
25
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3
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#@ @00# 8 109
bil 1 1
arez ~now bY the Miani Stacicn?
8 2
There are no donestic activities at all in the
1
3
Miami Station A11 Cuban 2c-ivities have been moved Eack
L
4
here to Headquarters_ The Zami Station now is completely
5
and solely involved 13 tne _ntelligence in the Caribbean
6
Does the 1iami Station L I your pardon
~
does the Headquarters compc-ent that now handles the Cuban
8
situation in Miami run any agents in the Cuban community?
9
No . Nell let je explain that to you _ We do have
10
a career agent Iho nas beer with us for 2 gooa many Years:
11
in Niami and we do use nic 20 contact relatives of Cubans
12
who 2re still in Cuba 1 3ean, relatives who are in the U.S
0 13 ~ho nave relatives in Cuba
:
3 14 Now , this is cone Zrincipally with the idea Of 3
15 recruitment target, deternzze weaknesses or strengths chis
16
type of thing Ile cces contect these people all over the
17 United States_ If we come across an individual that looks like
18 he nicht be recruitable, or 2erhaps we could even double hin
19
we Will, Jfter Ive make our zreliminary assessment, and we 1
j 20 find cut where relatives an: these types of people are, We
8
21 will isk this career agent cr instruct him to go contact
|
22 these people , be it New rorr, New Jersey , Chicago , or what-
W
6 23 ever 1
1 24 So You use Cuban ZOW citizens or aliens in this
3
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1iu OetrGI
bh 16
8
A Right
3
3 2 8 Just like foreign associates would do
1
5 Exactly.
2
4 Are there any nore people like Bernard Barker Who
5
ere contract emploees Of the Agency who still work in the
6 Jiami-Cuban communitz?
Jo . JJone_
8
That entire apparatus nas been
9 {as been Gismantled:
10 dismantled. #hat i5 the current size of the
11 Miami Station?
12 A I really zon t know but it runs between 11 and 14,
1
d 13 35 far as I know 1 &hink 16 Will be 11 che next fiscal
1
3 14 {ear.
15 MR. MANFREDI : Off the record:
16 (Discussion off tne record. )
17 MR.MANFREDI : Let' s gC pack on the record
18 BY MR MANFREDI:
19 There are ?resently no Cuban Ops being conducted out 3
j 20 of `iami?
6
21 Io . Al1 Caban Ops _ are being conducted out of
|
22 #eadquarters_
ui
v
23 Ana even :rom the leadquarters location there are 1
24 1o paramilitary operations? 1
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X 25 Ho Gerald Ford Library
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111
Jbh 17
1
3 No covert 7 77 well there is some propaganda activity
8 2
being conducted still?
1
3
On a very small scale, and the covert action facilit
4
that Xe had , the radio, taped program is being terminated
5
by 30 June So for all practical purposes it is terninated
6
now .
7
The Aiami Station 15 under official cover
8
Yes
9
And it has keen decreased to now many people?
1C
Between i1 and 14
11
And it has absolutely no responsibilities with
12
1 respect to Cuba?
4 13
8
Absolutely none
} 14
Ana its responsibilities are entirely directed
to
15
other Latin American countries?
16
To Caribbean countries_
17
Caribbean countries_ And I trust that there are
18
other Agency stations in the Caribbean?
0
19
Yes 1
20 3 Well, I nave no further questions , Mr . Sturbitts_
21 L
If vou have anything vou would like to add You are welcone
22
to do 50 .
U
6 23
1 No , I have nothing.
: 24
I want to thank fOU on behalf of myself and the
O
25
Cormission for Your cooperation
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:2 18
StckEI
1
Sure
3
8 2
I am sorry we had to take So much of your time
1
3 That is all rignt.
4 Thank You
5 (Whereupon at 3:35 0 ' clock 2.n. , the taking of the
6 deposition was
concluded .)
7
8
9
10
11
12
1
0
13
2
(
3
14
15
16
17
13
19
1
20
:
21 7
22
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25
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