Transcript of 178-10002-10215.pdf
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178-10002-10215] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
JFK Assassialion System Dare: 87317201
Identification Form
Agency Information
AGENCY ROCKCOM
RECORD NUMBER 178-10002-10215
RECORD SERIES ASSASSINATION FILES
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : DEPOSITION OF (A CIA EMPLOYEE)
Document Infomation
ORIGINA TOR ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
FROM:
TO
TITLE :
DATF : 04/16/1975
PAGES : 8
SUBJECTS
ANTH-CASTRO ACTIVITIES
CIA
CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS
CUBAN EXILES
FITZGERALD; DESMOND
STURGIS, FRANK
HUNT, E. HOWARD
KENNEDY, ROBERT F.
ORGANIZED CRIME
ROSELLI, JOHNNY
STURBITTS, WILLIAM
GIANCANA, SAM
DOCUMENT TYPE DEPOSITION
CLASSIFICATION Secret
RESTRICTIONS IA; IB; IC
CURRENT STATUS Redact
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 02/13/200 1
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS Selected pages from deposition: Full documnent is number 1781000210091.
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1 C @ N % E ! % {
2 Examination by Counsel
3 Deposition_Qf
For the Conmission
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2 Wiliian C . Sturbitts 1
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(AFTERNOON SESSION Page 58 )
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Willian C . Sturbitts (Resumea) 58
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PRESIDENT ' $ COMMISSION
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ON CIA ACTIVITIES
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Langley , Virginia'
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Wednesday , April 16 , 1975
€
Deposition of WILLIAM C STURBITTS , called for
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exanination by Counsel for the Commission on CIA Activities,
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the witness being duly sworn by Thomas C: Hogan , a Notary
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Public in and for the State of Virginia, in the offices of the
iC Central Intelligence Agency Langley , Virginia, at 9 :50
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0'clock a.m . , on Wednesday , April 16 , 1975 , the proceedings
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{ being taken down in stenotype by Ruth G McClenning , and
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transcribed under her direction.
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3 14 APPEARANCES :
10 On behalf of the Commission:
16
GEORGE MANFREDI _ ESQ - ,
17 ROBERT B _ OLSEN ESQ .
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Thereupon
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TNILLIAM C . STURBITTS
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called as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA
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Activities , and having been first duly sworn by the Notary
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Public, was exanined and testified as follows:
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EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION
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BY MR _ WANFREDI :
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Mr . Sturbitts, will you state Your full name for the
10 record?
11
A William C . Sturbitts_
12 Mr. Sturbitts, do you recall when we spoke sone
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4 13 weeks ago You signed a document entitled , "Advice and
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3 14 Waiver"?
15 Right_
16 You understand that document is still in effect?
17 Sure
18 Mr . Sturbitts whom are you currently employed?
19 You mean the Agency or T 1
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20 That is right_
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21 Central Intelligence Agency _
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22 And what is your current position with the Agency? 3
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u J 23 I am a Special Assistant, Latin America, for
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24 Economic Intelligence Collection and Operations
25 And would YOu briefly review for me the history 0f
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1 your employment th the Agency?
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A When I first came in I was in the Intelligence
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3
Directorate for approximately ten years and I was put on specia
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detail, special indefinite detail, in the Deputy Director, Plans
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which is now the Directorate of Operations
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What were you put on that detail?
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I guess it was 1964 , January , I believe
8
And what did that detail involve?
9
Cuban operations economic warfare
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And how long were you on that detail?
11
I was in the Cuban operations for nine years.
12
3etween 1964 and 19732 1
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13
(Nods in affirmative.)
1
3 14 And in 1973' did you assume your current tion?
15 Yes, January.
16 Now , while You were on special detail 3 to the DOD?
17
Yes .
18
Were You stationed in Washington?
19 Yes
1
20 And did you commute with some frequency to Miami?
4
21 Yes
1
< 22 Were your activities in Miami in any way connected
5
23 with the operations of the Miami Station?
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24 In some way.
Yy responsibilities were worldwide.
25
I took temporary predominantly in Europe_ and then Miami
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Most of my operations were run out of Europe
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Run out of T
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Europe _ Some were run out of Miami but the big ones
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Were run out Of Europe
5 [ell, in the course of your activities with respect
6
to Cuba did You have occasion to become familiar with the
7 operations of the Miami base?
8
A Yes
9 And the situation in the Cuban community in Miami?
1C Yes, sir.
11 During the nine years You were with DDO ' s Cuban
12 operations , who was J Fho were the chiefs of the Miani
3
{
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13 Station?
8
: 14 I think in 1963 Ted Shackley was the Chief and he
15
was followed by I can't think of his nane I should know
16 it. Well, I will come back to that.
17 Then , the next Chief of Station was Ravl Henze
18 What Years was he Chief?
19 I think Baul was there about a year and a half. He
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20 left in 1968 when we reduced the size of the Station. Let' s
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21 Henze was there from 1966 to 1968 And then Jake Esterline
say
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22 He was Chief of Station from 1968 to 1973 _
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23 Now what Txas che formal title of the group to which
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24 you were assigned for the 9-year period?
2
25 Nell, when I first came in it was known as the
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1 Special Activities Staff. It was headed by Desmond Fitzgerald_
2 {
Ana then, I believe after that it becane the Cuban Operations
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Grcup_
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Now was this a special group within the DDO or was
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it attached to one of the area divisions?
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A No Following the Bay of Pigs , they created a
thing
called Task Force W wnich was headed by Bill Harvey . And
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that when Harvey left, he went to #Zhief '0f Station Rome
0 -
9 and Fitzgerald took over ; it becane Special Activities Staff_
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It Ivasn't attached to anything except D # it reported to the
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Deputy Director, Plans
12 And that was Mr Karamessines?
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13 Yes Nell, it was Helms at that time back when it
2
<
3 14
was first created . Helms was DDP at that time _
15 And Task Force W was created inmediately after the
16 Bay of Pigs?
17
A [ell, not immediately. I think sometime around
13
in the of Bigs was in April. I think this was created in
19 Septenber sone thing like thatz 1961 .
1
20 And that subsequently became the Special Activities
21 Staff?
2
1
22 4
Special Activities Staff and consequently became the
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23 Cuban Operations Group . As the Cuban Operations Group it went
6
5
24 back into the Western Femi sphere Division_
25 And what Was the date of that reorganization?
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A Nell, let's see_ I would say that was probably around
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71 2 1965 because Fitzgerald then became Chief , W.H., and then
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later DDP
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4 Now Mr.Harvey ~ Man do you recall what position Mr
5 Harvey held after he left Zask Force W?
6 Yes He was #Chief "of Station Rome
7 And is he still with the Agency?
8 Oh , no . He retired a long time ago
9 Do you know Fhere he lives at the present time?
1C
Frankly, I aon' t . I have an idea where he lives.
11 He went to work for a friend of mine who had a law firn-
12 Harvey is a lawyer
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4 Indianapolis area?
4
13
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Yes, some place around there It is in the midwest,
} 14
26 Indiana
What was the role that was assigned to Task Force
16
W? 17
It was the overall Cuban operations _
18
Did the Miami Ln when was the Miami Station estab-
19
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lished?
20
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2 Well, I think they had 3 forward operatio-s base downe
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there about 1960 which was small, in. Coral: Gables
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22
3 This was , then , ?rior to the Bay of Pigs?
23
5 Oh , yes
24
Vow , in addition :o Task Force W , was the Miami
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Station running any operations against Cuba?
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A_ You mean prior to- the Bay of Pigs?
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Yes
A I really don t know . It was a small Tn I it was a
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Eorward base and it was more Or less as I recall a support type
6 thing _
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Well, after the Bay of when Task Force W was
8
established , did it have sole responsibility for Cuban
9 operations?
1C
Yes
11 Or was that shared with the Miami base , Miami
12 Station? {
4
13
No The Miami Station was under Task Force W
2
<
2 14 All right_ Mould that als0 be true of the Special
15 Activities Staff, the Cuban Operations Group?
16 Right, except that at the present time the Station
17 has na Cuban operations
12 I understana that When were Cuban operations termi-
19 nated? 1
20 At the Stacion? Let 5 see Sternfield went down
0
21 there in 1972. It was curing fiscal year '72 I think it was
2 22 in early 1973_ It was a gradual reduction_
4
23 And have those operations been terminated en tirely
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24 or are they now run out Of the Washington area?
2
25 All Cuban operations are run out of Washington
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There are no more
paramilitary operations_
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that type of thing
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1 2 But there are some
Cuban operations being run out of
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the Washington area?
4 4 Right.
5 Is that correct?
6 Right_ Worldwide_
Mr.Sturbitts, in the last couple of weeks You may
nave seen some allegations in the press about possible assassina-
tion attempts that have been nounted or alleged assassination
1C attempts that have been mounted
11 Right.
12
E
against Fidel Castro . In the course of your
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3
13 activities with respect to Cuba _ did you ever learn of any such
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14 attempts?
15 A Well, let Je answer it this way . I wouldn t say
16 attempts I know there was discussion_ "Attempts W is too
17 strong a word.
16 Well; can you place in time Your first knowledge of
19 any such discussions?
1
20 A Well the first knowledge I had of any discussions
3
21 I Was on TDY and this Was October November , 1963 with Fitzgerapd L
22 in Paris. And I knew that he was going to meet 3 @ let me put
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23 it another Ivay . I had overheard that discussions were going on
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24 Iith a nember of Castro' s military but that he wanted, a5
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25 I recall, he wanted some British ~ A I mean Belgian rifles and
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a telescopic sight -
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Who wanted then?
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This military suy that was in Fidel's 05 E I think
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at one time he was a commandante Now , I knew that was going
on . 1 didn t participate in it because I was there for another
reason. And I know that subsequent to that time that Fitzgerald
met with him again and as I recall as the personal representa-
tive of the Attorney Ceneral, Bobby Kennedy .
I provided all those files There are 19 valumes that
1C
we gave to your people But I don t know who was reviewing
11
chem I think Belin was going to do it hinself
12
Yes. He is He is doing it hinself: 1
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13
You said there were 19 volunes of documents with
9
<
: 14
respect to this
13 19 files, manila.
16 All having to do with possible assassination?
17 All having to do with this whole time period and
18
can we go off the record for a minute?
19 (Discussion off the record. )
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20 BY MR _ MANFREDI :
21 The first knowledge of such conversations that You
22 had , I take it vou obtained on a
trip
to Europe with Mr
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24 I simply overheard it, that is right.
25 And who were the parties to the conversation you overh
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heard?
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A fellow named Mestor Sanchez
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And Mr Fitzgerald?
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Yes , and I really can t recall some of the other
5 people _ We were we nad just movea the Station at that time ,
in Paris, out of the Embassy into the old Rothschild Palace
and we felt that it was probably bugged , So all conversations
took place
~ M we walked around the garden and tyat type of
thing, and you know , I was walking with somebody , somebody
10
was in front of me , ana you just overhear conversations
This was in Paris?
12
A Yes
13 I see.
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} 14 Mr;:' Sanchez was he 3 nember of the military?
16 A No {iss Sanchez was_ in the Special Activities Staff_
16 He was stationed in Washington And he was in contact with
17 Cuban military-type _
i8 Was it your understanding that the Agency had receiveh
19 instructions with respect to this activity from another
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20 comporent of the Government? 2
21 Well, let me Put it this way . I don t know whether 1
22 they received instructions I have to assume and I am pretty
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23 positive , that this was a result of a
Special Group decision
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24 And at this time vou nave to remember that Bobby Kennedy was
25 overseeing this deal presunably for his brother , and he was
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part of that Special Group. He called the mee tings he presided
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4 2 : he did a nunber of things _
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Were there any other occasions that You can recall
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in which the possibility or the subject of assassination of
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Fidel Castro was discussed?
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A No , not really.
7
You referred to this as the first occasion_
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This is the first
S
Was there 2 second?
1C
the first time I knew about it or even heard it
discussed_
12 Well , prior to the investigation that is currently
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0 12 underway I am referring now to opr Commission 5 investigatian
2
4
2 14
S E Iere there any other occasions in Ihich this subject came
i2
to your attention after this discussion in the garden in
16 Paris?
1 ; The only other thing that came to my attention was
i2 chat the decision was made not to provide him with this sight
19 that he vanted _ Whether that is right or wrong , I don ' t know ,
1
2C but that is what I wvas told- 3
21 When did gou learn that?
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22 Oh , I 'ould assue in ~ # must have been early 1964 ,
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23 around February , something like that.
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{ 24 Off the record
25 (Discussion off the record.)
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MR - MANFREDI: On the record_
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{ 2
BY MR - MANFREDI :
2
: Mr _ Sturbitts, are you familiar with a gentleman by
the name of Frank Sturgis?
Indeed
Is Your familiarity based on what you have read in
the press?
A No . It is what is contained in the files.
Have you caused a search to be made of CIA files,
13 particularly the files of she Nestern Hemisphere Division ,
in an attempt to determine whether Mr. Sturgis ever had any
12 connection with the Agency?
1
# 1 A I have
1
2 What were the results of that search?
13 Absolutely no connection , never has been
16 Jhen we talk about connection , are we talking about
17 an employment relationship?
12 That is what 1 am speaking of
19 Was Mr.Sturgis ever an independent contractor of
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20 the Agency?
2
21 A No 1
3 22 ias he ever a contract employee?
3
23 No
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5
24 (as he ever a recular employee of the Agency?
:
25 Vo
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Was he ever nired to do any piecework for the
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Not to my knowledge _
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Do You know whether or not Mr Sturgis ever partici-
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pated in any type of paramilitary or other operation against
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Cuba?
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A On nis own behalf he did, not on behalf of this
3
Agency .
9
How did you learn of those operations?
1C Through the newspaper. And through FBI reports_
11 Now are these recent FBI reports?
12 Oh , no . These 9o back Ea I know at one time the
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3
13 thing that comes to mind , I think he made a leaflet drop
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;
14
over Cuba and this was subsequently reported in the press and
15
by the Bureau office in Miami
16 Do !ou know who financed his activities?
17 I have no idea
:8 Is it possible that Mr sturgis activities were
19 indirectly financed by the Agency through
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20 A I don' t see how _ Frank Sturgis i5 a soldier of
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21 fortune; has been He has cons tantly tried to associate himsele
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22 with the Agencv . When I went through his file wanted e
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# 23 to classify the file and the way I classified it was "don' t
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J(
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24 destroy it, he is an
intelligence nuisance
8
25 off the record
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(Discussion off the record. )
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MR . MANFREDI : On the record _
BY MR _ MANFREDI :
Have You caused the Agencq records with respect to Mr
5
Sturgis to be assembled in any one location?
€
A Yes Ihave cus tody of them
7
And what i5 the volume of that material?
8
A5 I recall, there are five volumes Your committee
G
called for them the other after the article in the paper ,
1
I guess it was last Saturday_ They called for them Monday and
11
they returned them Monday afternoon
12
Do you know who exanined those files?
13
No , I don' t .
1
2
14 You indicated a moment ago that Mr . Sturgis contacts
13
the DCD office in Miami with some frequency , is that correct?
16
A Well, not great frequency but he does with tidbits
17 of so-called information
12 Is this information limited to narcotics, alleged
19 narcotics traffic?
1
20 A Recently it has been 2
21 Has Mr . sturgis been encouraged bY the DCD office 7
3
22
in Miami?
3
23 Mr . Sturgis has been told by the DCD office in Miami
24 to take his information to the Drug Enforcement Agency or the
25
: FBI _
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Do you know whether or not they consider him an
{
2 3 established contact?
3
{
A No nanner
Do they have any do they periodically seek to
collect information from Mr _ Sturgis?
4 I can t speak to that but the records that we have
don t reflect. anything like that_ Before they would contact
3 somebody in that context, knowing that there is a 201 file
on
Sturgis, they woula have to ccordinate with the Latin
10 American Division before they did anything since we do hold
11 the file.
12 Would you briefly explain what a 201 file is?
1
4
13
A A 201 file i5 a personnel file. It consists of any
1
3 14 information relacing to an
individual appearing in the press
16 as a result of other agency reporting and that type of thing
16 Personnel or personality file?
Personality file, I should say . Excuse me
12 Do You know whether or not there is any connection
19 or relationship between Eugenio Martinez and Mr Sturgis?
1
20 A [ell I Wvill say this Obviously , they do know
:
C
21 each other_ They have to know each other frcm their days
22 in Cuba
23 Do You know whether or not Mr . Sturgis ever partici-
24 pated with Martinez in raids against Cuba?
25 No 45 [ recall, we employed Martinez around 1961 ,
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I guess , and he was in our maritine activities He was a
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2 { boat captain even tually. And he did participate in 'infiltrations
1
and exfiltrations ana perhaps one or two raids, hit and run,
1
sabotage-type actions against Cuba Sturgis never engaged in
any of these things _ He never dia it for us nor did he ever
do it on any Of our boats planes , or 7
anything that belongs
to the Agency .
3 When artinez would run such an operation or captain
3 boat on such an operation, would ne be charged with putting
10 together his own crew?
11
2 No . He had an assigned crew and every boat had a
:
12
Case Officer operating either out.of the probably out of
4
0
13 the Miami Station Sometines I would assune that we did have
1
3 14 some people in the Rey West base . But he Martinez_ would receive
13 his instructions and briefings from his Case Officer.
16 Sa it is likely that he could have brought Sturgis
17 along on any of -hese operations?
i2 Absolutely unlikely. Oh :he guy whose name I was
19 trying to think of , Chief of Station, John Dimer
20 And that would be for a Feriod of time between
21 Shackley and Henze?
22 Yes _
22 1964 to 1966?
24 Something like that.
25 Would !ou describe briefly for me the nature of the
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activities conducted by the Special Activities Staff during
2 2
your E and subsequently the Cuban Operations Group during
;
your 9-year tenure with those groups
4 Well, there was it was an across-the-board
intelligence operation consis of collection of foreign
positive intelligence counterintelligence_ Paramilitary
7
activities , covert action, economic activities. That is about
8
the breadth of the thing _
9
Vow , these were all conducted through the DDO?
1C
4 Right.
11
Vow let' s speak for a momert about the paramilitary
12
; operations Nere these operations run out of southerr
{
4
13
Florida?
1
: 14
A Right_
18
And in particular out of he Miami Station?
16
Yes
17
Nere there any other CIA facilities in that area of
18 the country that participated in these activities?
19 Vot to mY knowledge _
20
were there any southern harbors other than Miami
21 that were used in these activities?
22 Nell we had activities down in the Keys also As
23
I said_ we did have a Key West base
24
Nere there any other bases in that area of the
25 country that were utilized in these operations?
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4 Well, not that I would cail a base. We did have
2 training facilities for the UDT teans
3
What is a UDT team?
Underwater demolition_
There were those bases located?
I frankly don t know _ They were down along the Keys,
along that long peninsula going down there There were a
8 number of sites I really can t recall then
Were there any other sites within the United States
1C in which paramilitarq training was conducted , for people
11 participating in these activities?
12 Not to my knowledge
13 Where were these people trained?
14 Nhat do you mean?
28 Well Cubans who participated in these activities.
16 We trained them at these places we haa in the Keys
17 Now there also T t some of then were brought up here and trainej
12 at &he Domestic Training Station_
19 Where i5 that located?
20 That is down in Virginia.
21 Were any CIA personnel actually involved in these
22 raids?
23 Occasionally , I would think that you have got to
24 understana at chis time that Ive had a great many contract
25 employees independent contractors and this type of thing _
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Most of the paramilitary operations and the training was
; 2
conducted by the Special Operations Group which is another
1
3
entity cf the
4
DDO?
5
DDO
€
Now , the facilities thac we have been talking about,
training facilities
7 ' were manned , then , the Special
8
Operations Group, or at: least supervised by the' Special
9 Operations: Croup , is that correct?
10 Nell, supervised , Yes , ana I would think that probabll
11
some of the training was given their people The Domestic
12 Training Station is under the Office of Training and but I
13 would think that in the paramilitary field that the SOG (vould
:
3 14 probably staff the training facility with their people who havei
165 the expertise in paramilitary operations
16 Now were the people that were being trained at
17 these facilities basically Cuban refugees?
12 Yes _
19 And at the outset 1 take it not many of those people
20 were American citizens?
21 No
22 Or had become American citizens
;
23 I would assume a great many have
:
;
24 this time_
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At the present tine, how large is that Cuban communi
{ 2
in Miami? Do you have any iaea?
1
4 Well, it is extremely large. I would think it is
Probably
#u I was trying to think I would say up towaras .a
military people _
You spoke about paramilitary operations ana covert
action How do You distinguish between those two categories
8 of activities?
Well_ actually one can fall into the other . The
10 paramilitary could fall into covert action but in those days
11
we did distinguish somewhat_ A lot of the covert action was
12 nedia placement _ We had a number of operations at ~ M legal-
13 type cperations harassment operations_ For instance, Fidel
:
3 14 seized a great rany art treasures and in particular he had a
15 Napoleonic collection whicn was supposed to be the finest in
16 the world that he sold to Zealers in Europe He had paintings
17 that; were immensely valuable that he tried to have auctioned
12 in London and the London auctioneer would rot accept them
19 because lne obviously didn't have clear title to then He was
1
20
T E
they were stolen in the eyes of the auctioneer _ He was
21 forced to auction them in Toronto, Canada
22 We ran legal operations got the owners and had then
23 hire attorneys
and bring them to court and this type of thing _
24 He seized these race horses . He tried to peddle them
25 in Europe and up in Canada We ran opposition against that
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type of thing_
3
8 2
These were what You considered to be covert operationb?
1
A Yes, covert action
Now , this is what you were referring to legal-
type operations?
5
A Yes.
7
You used legal process to harass Castro
3
Yes _
9 What other types of harassment activities did You
10
run tkat would fall under this covert action category?
11 Well
12 Would economic warfare be
1
3
13 That was sort of something separate unto itself:
2
{
; 14 This was ~tr tbe economic warfare aspect of this thing was a
12 decision' of the Special Group to enforce an economic blockade
16 Mhat special group is that?
17 It is now called the Forty Committee.
12 Is that 302 Committee?
19 4 Well, it was a 302 at one time, too First of all,
1
20 it Ivas called the Special Group , CI Counterinsurgency . Then
C
21 it went to the 302 and then it had another name in between
1
22 there and now it is the Forty Committee_
23 A11 right- We will retur to that 3 little bit
Ji 24 later, but what other types 0f harassment were You running
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This is what I was trying to think of _
{
1 2
that would be considered covert action?
1
3
Well, as I say , a lot of propaganda press placement,
nedia placement. It has been so long ago I really don' t
5
remember . I know we had a nuber of things going against hin
5
Ne used suasion , moral suasion, otrerwise We did some
extra-legal things _ Ne tried to get to his sources of supply ,
particularly when they were countries that we had treaties
9
with, NATO countries, Canada , this type or thing _
1C
Let' s talk about each of those in turn You said
11
you used moral suasion what kind of activities are you
12
referring to? 1
4
13
1 Well, in the moral suasion field we t
actually, we
{
: 14
Iere the catalyst in this whole thing and we had the legal
15
activities, the legal 4 4n weil I don t know how you would
16 phrase it, but we operatea under the Cuban access control
17 regulations of the Treasury Department, the Trading with the
12 Enemy Act, and we als0 used the facilities of the Department ofl
19
Commerce the Export Control people_
1
20 I guess as You are aware, Cuban industry wa$ totally
21 U.S.-oriented_ As parts began wearing out and this type of
22 thing, Castro had his little people tbere running around trying
23
to place orders with subsidiaries of U.S _ companies_ Where
24
we would find this out through all-source intelligence , we
25
or the Treasury people or the Commerce people would go to the
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executives of these American companies and ask them to tell
2 {
their foreign subsidiaries not to provide the spare parts
1
3
the other things that Castro might need Re had the
4
Department of Commerce t Et we identified 600 of the major U .S _
5
companies that could provide spare parts for Cuban incustry
vie had the Department of Commerce sena letters to those 600
manufacturers and ask them to cooperate with them in denying
8
any spare parts to the Cubans This was a fairly concentratea
9
effort to really isolate then
1C
All right. And that is what You were referring to
11
as moral suasion?
12
:; Yes_
1
13 Anything else in chat category?
9
<
: 14 Not really. None that I can think of
15 Did you nake the same kind of efforts with foreign
16 companies?
1 7 At one point Tve iid but it was absolutely useless ,
18 the point in case being the Leyland buses We pulled all stopsi
19
to stop that sale_ The British Government turned uS down
{
& 20 Elat.
0
21 Now , did you attempt to reach any other sources of 7
22 supply?
v
23
A Nell, we also had wnat we call a
preemptive purchasiny
1
:
24 program_ If there was 3 single source of supply for a
9
7 25 particular item We would 90 in and buy it to deny the Cubans
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the market.
{ 2
Would that then be re-sold somewhere on the domestic
1
Yes _
domestic market?
No . It would be re-sold abroad _
In all cases?
The cases that I was associated with, it was all
sold abroad
C
What kind of purchases were made?
1
4 Well, we purchased at one point we purchased
sone Bright Stock in Antwerp .
12
What? 1
3
13
Bright Stock
0
4
2 17
What is thac?
12
1 Heavy , heavy oil, and since Cuba 4 # 85 percent of
lc
her energy comes from 0il this was considered a critical
17 commodity. Bright Stock can be G B
oh , it is almost like tar,
12
meltea tar, and it can be cut into additives , lubricants, this
19
type of thing, and this was critical to the Cuban economy . So
1
2C
we haa an oil Eirm purchase chis Bright Stock from a dealer fori
21
which Fe reimbursed the guy and the Bright Stock was eventually
22
sold in Africa_
23 Do you know of any sales of such materials that
24
were sade within the Unitea States? Resales I should say .
25
No .
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In addition to preemptive buying were there any 3
2 :
other actions taken by this group with respect to sources of
1
supply to Cuba?
A Well we did provide through third country agents
who got orders for Cuban goods _ in collusion with the Commerce
Department, ana 1 would assume the Special Group , we had
replacement parts manufactured that were substandard
8
And You had them sold through foreign companies?
A Nell, we had our agents get the Cuban orders all
10
over Europe_ Then they woula cone back and , as a matter of fact,
11
the forrer Secretary of Comerce who is on your Committee, Des
5
12
and I met hin and he gave uS the go-ahead to do this_
1
4 13
Mr . Dillon?
2
c
2 1 Na ie was Secretary of the Treasury .
13
But
16 But vou nust remember that these American
Mr - Connors?
A Yes_ But You must remember these American manufacturers ,
19 Tell
0
their places were nationalized and they were only too 3
71 20 happy to work With us And actually, it was 3 cash deal bona
C
5 21 fide business. These things were transshipped through two
2
22
or three countries finally wound up in Havana
in
;
23 You referred to some extra-legal activities
5
: 24
A Yes _ That is whac 1 was trting to think of what
1
2
25
we did I just can't think I renenber this was on one of
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1 our activities but I just can't think
4r I remember this was
2 3
on one of our activities but 1 just can't remember What the
;
{
extra-legal was_ I just can t remenber what it was. I know
it was one of the parts of the program _
This was illegal activities? Is that what you are
referring to?
Well, I wouldn't say they were illegal but they
weren t exactly legal, I don't think Perhaps they were in a
gray area some place_
Well whose lzws are we
talking about, international
law, the laws of the United States?
12
A I woula have to 9o back and review the thing . I 1
3
12
really can' t remember this I would have to go to the files_
1
: Where could we find that kind of thing in the files?
10
4 I :ould think probably down in the Records Center some
14 place _
17 Would it be possible to obtain thac material some
12
time during the lunch hour?
19
A No _ It is forty miles away-
1
20 . [Vell, is there some place in the building where
21
you could refresh Your . memcry?
3 22 Vot to my knowledge All that stuff hes been shippeal
4 23
This is talking 1l Years ago , 12 years ago. All that material
24 has been retired_
25 What category of activity would we be talking about
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when we refer to extra-legal activities?
2 1
This is what I was trying to think of and I can' t
3
1
think of what it was , I know extra-legal activities wa $ one
L
parts of the program that we were involved in
I might have a chart in my safe downstairs that might
tell me what that is
Well, let' s make a note of that and we will have to
3
come back to that.
5
41l right _
Who else would be knowledgeable about extra-legal
activities that were run against Castro?
12
4 Well_ the people that woula be knowledgeable are 1
4
12 probably retired and I was running the program So I ran
3
3
: 14
the economic program
10 Well, these are activities that were run in connecticn
12
with the economic ?rogram?
1; Yes
12 We talked about media placement during this nine-
year period. To what are. You referring when you refer to
1
0
2C media placement?
2
21 Well stories or rews items that perhaps our
1
2 22 propaganda people wrote We had them placed in newspapers
4
;
23 and magazines throughout the world_
;
24 Nould this also include broadcasts over radio
25 stations?
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1 Oh , yes Radio is a very big part of it.
{ 2
Now , were any of these newspapers or magazines
published within the United States?
A_ Not to my knowledge, no
These
were essentially foreign publications?
Yes .
were any of them published in the Cuban community
6
in Miani?
No _ The intent was to get world opinion against
1
Castro. You don t do that by publishing in the United States.
i1 What about the radio broadcasts? How were those
12
{ handled?
2 12
A Are you speaking of Radio Swan now?
<
: 14 Well, I am nfamiliar With how many radio stations
13
were involved Was there more than one radio station?
16 No We only had the one radio station but we did
17 contract time with Florida stations, a station in New York _
12 For broadcasts to what areas?
19 For broadcasts to Havana _
20 And the station in New York, was that received also
21 was that also broadcasting to various areas of the United
22 States?
23 I have no idea I don t know whether they used 3
24 particular frequency to set this out or whether they did it
25
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But the intention was to reach Cuba
1 2
Reach Cuba
1
3
You referred to a station in New York, referred to
4
as Swan. Were there others?
5
A There were a couple in Miami that I recall Not in
6
Miami I think there was one yes , there was one in Miami
7
I think ana one down in Kev Nest that they used_
8
{here was Radio Swan located?
9
On Swan Island
1C
Where 15 'Swan Island?
11
Swan Island is a little glob around Honduras
12
As far as you can recall, were there any other 1
#
13 radio stations in the United States that were utilized to
1
:
14 proadcast propaganda materials toward Cuba?
13 Well, there conceivably could have been , not that
16 I recall right now
17 Do you recall any attenpts by the Agency or groups
12 affiliated with the Agency :O raise money from the American
19 public to support those propaganda activities?
11
20 No As far as I know , Radio Swan and this type of
21 thing was fully subsidized the Agency .
22 Do you recall the advertising campaigns that were
23
run in connection with Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty?
24 Oh , yes
25 Nas anything of that nature done in connection with
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Cuban propaganda?
3 2 Not to mY knowleage
3 And that would include both the publications and the
radio?
5 Right _
Let' s talk about economic warfare for 3 couple of
monents Could you describe for e briefly the type of
8 economic activities that were conducted against Castro?
9 Well/ first of all, we wanted to denigrate the
1C regime_ his credit orthiness , and this type of thing . We
11 worked very closely with the Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in
12 the State Department and , well, for instance in those days , I
:
2
13 guess it was back in 1964 , the price of sugar had jumped from
1
} 14 about a penny a pound to 13 cents a pound something like
15 that, and we couldn t underscand So we kept 4 #
Fidel kept
16 saying that he had such a oor crop and this type of thing and
17 we just couldn t figure ouc he had such a poor crop because
12 some of our own islani assets told uS they were out there cuttihg
19 this cane like mad and the mills were working 24 hours a
1
20 this type of thing _ So subsequently , we found out that be was
21 lying and he was storing the raw cane in the schools , any
22 place . He had no storage facilities and put i any place he
23 could
5
{
24 So in cooperation with a couple of sugar brokers in
2 25 New York, we surfaced this fact and the price of sugar took a
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real cumble and all of a sudden then Cuba started exporting _
{ 2
It was this type of thing that obviously he was
L
trying to build up the world price because he didn t have any
money , he was so short on his exchange , and obviously Te didn t
fvant him to get the exchange _ So it was those types of
activities.
Was the assistance of any U.S businegsmen or U.S .
companies enlisted ir that effort?
Oh , yes.
iC
In what manner cid You use U.S companies and
11
businessmen?
12
5 Well, Ie simply "sed them as the experts 4 great
{
3
13
nany the sugar industry in Cuba was controlled bY the
1
<
3 14 American community , by American bankers and obviously they
15 lost everything wnen chey had to pull out. Sugar is the
16 lifeline of Cuba as far as any exchange , foreign exchange ; thisi
type of thing , and it was naturally our Number 1 target. So it
i2 was only natural sha2 we {vould go to the American businessmen _
19 What kini cf assistance did you seek or obtain from
1
20 these businessmen?
21 Well, e simply zalked with then about You
22 know the market conditions: were, Fhy the price was rising, if
23
we could find out that Fidel has plenty of sugar_ what would
24 happen to the market ?rice. This tvpe of thing_
25 They were usea as consultants
P
basically.
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were used as consultants , basically , yes.
3
3 2
We have spoken about the investment American business
had in Cuba Did it ever come to your attention that American
organized crime
A No .
6
had considerable investment in Cuba?
7
No well everybody knew that the Mafia was in
8
Cuba _ I mean , all the casinos and this type of thing _
9
The casinos were run
13
I knew that long before. When I was in the Air Force
13 auring the war, I usea to into Havana cn weekends and this
12
{ type of thing .
12
I understand that. It was fairly Iell known
:
2 : 14
It was a criminal element_
10 The Mafia Ias involved with the casinos in Havana
16 Right.
17 Do you know of any attempts by the Agency ta enlist
12 the support or assistance of any crime figures in any manner
13 whatsoever in the Agency' s efforts against the Cuban regime?
28 No
21 Have you ever heara of Mr.Roselli?
22 Oh , Yes _
7 23 When was the first time you' heard of Mr . Roselli?
;
{
24 Nell, I guess it was it seens to me it was either
2 25
Drew Pearson or Jack Anderson had an article on him a number
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of Years ago .
{ 2
Was that the first time You heard of the man ' 5
3
3
name?
L
Yes, as I recall
Is that also true of Sam Giancana?
No . I have heard shat name but I don t know where
In connection with 4 a
8
Vot in connection with the Agency , n
9
In connection wvith the casinos or
1C No .
gambling interests in Cuba?
12 No ;
1
0 13 You know of no instance in wnich organized crime
2
<
3 14 figures were used as consultants by the Agency?
13 Only what I read in the paper _ I had no knowledge
16 of that whatsoever
1 7 Do VOu know or any offers of assistance from figures
i2 of :hat type
19 io 1
20 who were interested in getting back into cuba?
1
1 21 No
22 We were talking about economic warfare. We have
L
U) 23 talked abouc attempcs to keep the price of sugar low What other
{
;
: 24 types of economic activities were conducted against Castro' $
25 Cuba?
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A Well we used all-source information to find out whatz
2 3
his commercial dealings were. Nhen we would see well, for
1
instance, the Nicaro Nickel Mine which is a source owned
by the General Services Adninistration, finally got back into_
production and nickel, of course, and still is 3 4 was in short
supply . We had a French firm, Societe le Nickel , who was
buying almost the entire output of the Nicaro mines And this
6
Rrench firm ex ported to the United States_ So we went to
9 the Treasury Department and to the Foreign Assets Control
1C people and said_ isn't there some thing we can do to stop these
i1 le-Nickel exports coming into the United States? So they looked
12
into the thing and indeed they did_ 1
0 13 Who owned the mine?
2
4
2 14 The U.S_ Government owned it when Castro took it
13 over.'
12 I see
17 4 General Services Administration And it was leased
12
out for operation _ But the ownership rested with the
12 Government _ 1
( ZC So the Treasury simply made the Erench provide a
C
6 21 Certificate of Origin for the nickel that went in ~ t
they
1
22 export a lot of metal that contains nickel, silverware, knives
W
61
5
23 and forks , this type of thing, and Jr I you know , stainless
5
: 24 steel, and since nickel is used as a hardening agent we simply
2 25 Treasury simply said You can t import any more into this
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country until we have a Certificate of Origin As a matter
3 2
of fact, there was a boat that was pulling into the dock in
1
5
New York and they woulan't let it unload just turned it 1
4
aroud Eventually , over a period of months le Nickel
5
found other sources and export privileges to the United States
6
were restored_
7
You know , it is you just any time you raise
8
or lower 3 tariff you have economic warfare. It is that
9
simple _
10
Were there any other instances that you can recall
11
of economic warfare in which you enlisted the support of
12
American business firms? 1
$ 13
I know we were in touch with 3 great many American
8
4
: 14 business firms We enlisted everybody' $ support that we could
15
MR _ MANFREDI : off the record_
16 (Discussion off the record.)
17 BY MR . MANFREDI :
18 When we broke for a moment we were discussing other
19 instances where the Agency has enlisted the support of Anericanl 1
U 20 business in economic warfare against Cuba Can you think of
0
21 any other such instances?
1
22
A Oh , certainly. The Cubans were having an awful time
Uj
vi
23 with their Maritime fleet,such a5 it was _ These boats were 1
1 24 powered with;Nordberg engines _ We simply went to the Nordberg
4
0
7 25 people and tola them asked then to cooperate with u5 , which
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1
10 said they would They notified their manufacturer S
3 2
representatives around the world if they got any orders from
1
3
the Cubans they were to be refused_ This type of thing.
1
4
We did the same thing with
5
Let' s just stop for a second Now
8 was Nordberg
6
compensated in ary way for cooperation with the Agency?
7
No .
8
Were they compensated for the loss of business
9
involved in that activity?
10
A_ No . No
11
I take it, you received similar cooperation from
12
other companies . 1
# 13
A Oh , a great many other companies , yes .
1
3 14 Did any American companies refuse to cooperate in
15 that manner?
16 No Not a one.
17 Were there any legal sanctions threatened against any
13 companies?
19
A No . No 1
8 20 Were there. any sanctions that could have been broughth
21 to bear upon those companies had they chosen to trade with
L
22 Cuba?
Wu
t 23 Well, in the first place, they couldn t trade with 1
24 Cuba They couldn t get export licenses from this country
2
4 25 anyway . Then , under the Foreign Assets Control Act of the
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Treasury Department you have the extra-territorialty clause
3 2
in there where a subsidiary of an American company cannot
1
3
foreign subsidiary of an American company cannot trade with
L
4
the country that is designated and Cuba was a designated countrl
5
And all the businessmen were well aware of this. Nobody tried
6
to twist their arm
7
Other than insuring that these companies refused
8
to accept orders from Cuba , which I take it You feel they were
9 legally constrained from doing , what other types of support did
10
Yo1 receive from American business?
11 Well, if American business ~ # sometimes they woula
12 receive correspondence
8
particularly , say , from well, they
1
4 13 received it from Cuba asking for_publications and this type
8
0
: 14 of thing . They would normally forward all this type of thing
15
to the Comerce Department and the Treasury Department , or in
16
some instances might call me and I would just give them
17
a Post Office box to send the correspondence to.
18 Any other types of support solicited or received by
0
19 the Agency from American business?
8
U 20 No Not that I can recall There just wasn € one
6
21 firm we approached , and God knows we approached I don '€ know L
22 how many , that wasn t extremely cooperative As a matter of
W
4 23 fact, a lot of them, you know thought we weren t doing enough
1
1 24 that we to do a little more than we were doing , the
9
25 government wasn 't really pushing Cuba the way it should , but
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outside of that, nothing _ There wasn t any problem of coopera-
3 2
tion. There wasn t any arm-twisting . It was all voluntary
1
3
Did you identify yourself a5 CIA
L
4
Yes.
5
F
in dealings with these companies?
6
Indeed , I do and we went to the top level , even
the Board Chairman or the president. No problem at all:
Let' s talk about paramilitary operations _ We started
but didn't really discuss that in any depth
10
What kind of paramilitary operations were run
11 against Cuba by the CIA?
12 Maritime operations 1
0 13
Is that the extent of it?
8
0
} 14
That is the extent of it.
15
Were there any aerial operations?
16
Not to mY knowledge
17 Leaflet drops?
ia No _
19 Bombing? 1
9 20 No . Of course you had the over-flights As far as
21 I am concerned that is the only aerial activity.
L
22 That was run another directorate, wasn t it?
W
m 23 Yes . 1
1 24 Aerial photography , and So forth
25
4 Yes They run 3 flight when you ask them It has to
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be requested and that is about it.
3
{ 2
And those were run out of the United States?
1
5
A Oh , yes
L
4
Can you think of anything , any other type of para-
5
military activity other than maritime operations _
A No . I really can t, no
Am I correct that those operations were manned
8
by CIA contract employees?
9
A Right.
10
Which would include Cuban refugees _
11 Right
12 And SOne! CIA officers? 1
0 13
Right.
8
{ 14
Any other branches of the services Armed Services ,
15 involved? This , of course, is posted Bay of
16
A Yes_ No , not to my knowledge You have got to remember
17 that probably down at our Domestic Training Station we
18 probably have people on :detail from other Y ta from the military
19 branches in the Government , but other than that I don ' t think
1
8 20
that T Mat of course, during the Bay of operation we also
21 had people detailed into the Agency
L
22 Now , the training of persons involved in maritime
W
#
23 operations , I take it, was conducted in part within the
1
3 24 United States and in part outside of the United States. Is
9
5 25 that correct? Photocopy from
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A I would think probably the major portion of it was
3
L 2 3 conducted within the United States_
1
3
ghe Keys would be considered within the United
4
States .
5
Oh ,
6
Or were there any locations where it was conducted
7
outside the United States?
8
A Following the Bay of Pigs,I don t think So . Not
9
to my knowledge - I just don' t know I just don' t recall
10
but I don't think that L Me I think all the training was done
11 domestically.
12 Now , what kinds of operations are included within
1
<
13 this category of maritime operations?
2
{ 14 A Well, the infiltration operations , infiltrating
15 agents into Cuba , exfiltrating agents , hit and run sabotage
16 raids That is about the extent of it:
17 Now , when dia. these. operations commence? Was it
18 shortly after the Bay of Pigs?
19 I woula Ra I think these operations were probably
1
20 at their height during the period about 1963 through, say ,
2
21 1967 _ The program was terminated in 1968 , I think in December L
22 1968 , something like that.
4
23 was the program terminated?
8
6
24 A First of all, it was too expensive _ It wasn t provid-
25 ing enough intelligence and it simply wasn't
I 5
economically ,
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1
1 it wasn t feasible to continue these things _ The agents were
3 2
getting wrapped up We were L we just felt that the return
1
3
wasn ' t sufficient for what the investment was:
4
You say the agents were getting wrapped up
5
Yes _
6
What do you mean that?
7
A When we infiltrated an agent , Cubans would identify
8
hin and capture him.
9
These various types of paramilitary operations that
10
were conducted by the Agency I trust were approved by the
11 Forty Committee?
5
12
A Every operation received a
specific approval from
{
4 13 the Forty Committee.
3
<
3
14
In advance?
15
In advance
16 Now , what was the procedure for submitting for
17 initiating such an
operation?
18
A Well normally in the case of an infil or an exfil
19
or perhaps we wanted to lay down the cache : 1
j 20 You are referring to a cache of arms
0
21
A A cache of anything, replay of radio, batteries, L
22
whatever they might need = If we decided that we should have
W
M
8
23
one of these operations and the request would go from here
5
1 24
over to the,' I guess to the White House ana then the Forty
8
25 Committee at its weekly meeting they used to meet very
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1
frequently they would either approve the operation or say
3
~ 8 2
no These operations had to be planned well in advance because
1
5
the tides had to be right, the moon had to be in the proper
1
4 phase for communications and this type of thing_ And these
5
things , all these were coordinated with the Joint Chiefs of
6
Staff, the NavY , the Coast Guard the FBI . If we were
7 exiltrating people, the Immigration and Naturalization Service
8
Every Government agency or enforcement agency or military
9
that had any-involvement whatsoever; and the entire
agency
10 thing was coordinated,
11 Do you know of any
such paranilitary operations
12
that were run unbeknownst to the Forty Committee?
1
# 13 No .
2
0 3 14 What kind of volune of operations are Me talking
15 about?
16
A You are
not talking about a very big volune of
17 operations because of the planning that had to go into these
18 things I would say that probably at the height of the thing
19 they may be running three or four 2 month No more than that.
1
20 You have heard Eugenio Martinez refer to having
:
21 run 300 operations_ L
22 A I have seen that
Vj
5;
23 Is that inaccurate?
1
24 Well it all depends on what is in his mind . He 1
9
25
may have considered some of the training exercises as opera-
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tions Obviously , these guys trained_ In order to run one
{ 2
of these operations you know You would have to have' a mother
1
3
ship in place and rubber boats and the UDT people to go in to 1
4
see if there were mines and this type of thing on the shore
5
lfore you 9o . So he may have considered that all these train-
6
exercises were operations but no way did he ever partici-
pate in any three or 400 active operations into Cuba
8
Now , from what specific locations were these
9 operations launched?
10 They were mostly launched from therKeys
11 Any other locations?
12
Not to my knowledge _
1
0 13 Now would You describe for me the kind of hit and
2
<
} 14
run sabotage operations that were conducted?
15
A Well, we conducted one hit and run sabotage against
16 the Texaco refinery .
17 What used to be the Texaco refinery?
18 What used to be the Texaco refinery .
19 MR . MANFREDI : Off the record_ 1
j 20 (Discussion off the record.)
0
21 THE WITNESS : These things ,
a great amount of Planning
L
22 went into these things [e did have a model of the refinery
W
0) 23 We agonized over the best approach to the refinery and this 1
1 24 type of thing to do the most effective damage_ This was run. It
7
8
4 25 was successful, as I recall
1
not totally successful but it was
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1
a
successful operation_ that, I mean they didn t do as
1 2 much damage as they wanted to because they had to out
1
3 because the Cuban defense came after them It was that type
4 of operation that we did_
5 As I recall, another time we took 3 team in to burn
6 some cane fields. Really, the classical operations that we
did in the maritime activities were the infiltrations and
8 exfiltrations
9 Were any CIA operations run out of Guantanamo?
10 Not to my knowledge
11 Was it impractical to use the base there for
12 A Well, the base is So surrounded and has been that
1
0 13 I think if a guy went through that fence you would carry him
2
{ 14 back _ He wouldn t walk.
15 MR . MANFREDI : Off the record
16 (Discussion off the record.)
MR _ MANFREDI: Back on the record
18 BY MR_- MANFREDI :
19 Are there any other categories of sabotage run out
1
20 ofr the Keys other than what YOu have just described?
:
21 Nell, we did lay down a cache , if You will sabotage L
22 kits to be used by our own island agents They contained
4
23 sugar to dump into gas tanks and metal fragments to down
1
24 crank cases . Things of this nature 1
8
25 One of our main objects was to, of course sabotage
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1
all the 0il We did that with a big operation_ We made our
3 2
own oil, substandard Additives , I should say , not oil_ We
L
5
contracted with an American firm for that. And we shipped
1
4
it in through third countries in Europe It did hit the target
5
The thing we wanted to get at was the oil and the
6 automotive machinery on the island _ We knew it was breaking
7
down and if we could get a complete breakdown we would have
8
everything at a standstill because in those days the automotive
9 equipment wasn t coming in that rapidly Erom Europe because
10
Castro didn' t hve the money to it and they weren t going tc
11 extend the credit.
12 The railroad system was in total disaster. The 1
0 13 Soviets had such a long logistics line, supply line, plus
8
8 14 the fact that the Cubans didn t like the Soviet equipment
15 because they were used to good American equipment And these
16
were principal targets that we were trying to get to.
17 In your experience at the Agency can you think of
18 any other analogus or similar paramilitary operations run
19 from 3 base in the United States? 17
20 No 9
21 I know there has been some paramilitary training
L
22 in the United States
W
vi 23 A Oh , yes 1
1 24 In connection with other operations
9
4 25 Oh , sure. Photocopy from
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1
But do you know of any paramilitary operations that
8 2
were actually run out of the United States?
1
3
A No .
L
4 As far as you know , then , this is a totally unique
5
situation_
6
A As far as I am concerned , it i5, yes
7
Now , how large a Navy was
actually organized in
8
Miami? On a
previous occasion you described this to me as
the third largest Navy in the Caribbean
10
A That is right_
11 What kind of equipment did these people have?
12
A Well, we: had T 4
honestly, everything from a canoe
1
# 13
up to three to 500 foot mother ship. We had Boston whalers ,
1
3 14 rubber boats_ We had 8 number of craft in, say , the 27 to
15 45 foot: length And they looked like real tubs They' were
16 painted and they looked: like they wouldn t even float but
17 ther had the fastest engines in then . They coula outrun any-
18 thing_ They were extremely well armed _ We had our under-
19 water demolition teams Ne had a pretty good.Navy _
2
20 Did these craft operate under non-official cover
8
21 in the Miami area? L
22 Yes
lu
Mi 23 Were there a variety of covers or was there one
1
24 firm? 1
; 25 A No . Variety.
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1 Fishing companies?
3 2
A Well, fishing companies , Geodetic Survey, marine
1
5
supply . In all, I think during the period that the station
1
4
and these other entities were under commercial cover, or non-
5
official cover, I think we had 100 so cover companies
6
Did any of these companies actually engage in any
7
legitimate commercial activities?
8
A Not to my knowledge, no
9
None of them G m were any of then in competition with
10
firms in that area?
11
A These are probably what we woula call devised
12
facilities. They were probably registered with the State of ;
0 13 Florida and they taxes and this type of thing, but if one
2
3 14
was, blown or became known , we just crossed that out of
15 existence ana started up a new one;.
16 What did Eugenio Martinez do when he wasn t running
17 these operations?
18
A Well, he was down T this is one of the reasons as
19
I told you before, we brought hin back and put him under that 2
8 20 contract, that retainer; because of the years that he spent
21 under such strict operational discipline down in the Keys
L
22 Obviously , he didn't stay down there all the time He
U
Mj
3
23
came back 4
he might cone back once 3 month , or something
5
7 24 like that, to see his family, perhaps once every two weeks
2
7 25 if he got some time off_
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I see. So some of these boats and personnel were
3
8 2
actually stationed full-time in the Keys
1
3
A Oh , yes . Oh , sure
1
Were there' any operations run out of the United
5
States which involved destruction of crops or poisoning of
6
sugar or anything of that sort?
What did you have in mind specifically? You mean the
8
Puerto Rican thing?
A Well, that is one of' the things I had in mind
10 Would you describe that for me?
11
A Well, this is, I guess you ' could term it a target of
12 opportuni- This was where a vessel was carrying Cuban sugar
1
4 13 to the Soviet Union and I forget exactly now what happened to
2
c } 14 it but I know that it got a hole below the waterline, or
15 something, and had to put into Puerto Rico for repairs _
16 In order to repair it, I guess , and it in the
17 drydock or wherever it was , they: had ta remove the sugar and
18 put it in the warehouse and at that time I guess somebody cane
19
up with a plan to try to widen the rift between there was
1
20 a rift at that time between the Soviets and Cubans and to
i
21 a harnless substance into the sugar that would make it 1
22 acid sour tasting, and it wouldn t harm the sugar or the
Ijj
v; 23 individual, and some of this was done And then when it
3
J
24 leaked, of course, we had to get rid of it and we had a sugar
1
2
J
25 firm buy it back from the Soviets Photocopy from
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Bought it back from the Soviets?
3 2
Yes.
1
3
MR . MANFREDI : Off the recora_
L
4 (Discussion off the record:)
5
MR . MANFREDI: Back on the record _
6
BY MR - MANFREDI :
7
Are there any other operations in which crops were
8
were there attempts to destroy crops in Cuba?
9
No No .
10 Place foreign substances in Cuban products?
11
A In Cuban products?
12 Yes _ 1
0 13 No . Not that I recall You see , Cuba really in
2
<
: 14 those days the only thing , Cuba was exporting sugar and nickel
15 The agriculture sector of the economy was in absolutely total
16 chaos God , they didn t have any citrus
P
they didn't have
17 anything , and the poor people in Cuba were literally starving
18 There just wasn t anything to eat. Ana Fidel was going around
19 with this T Dee of course, there were a number of
2
20 experimental cattle ranches in Cuba King Ranch had one there i
21 I forget 2 K several other European and American companies that 7
22 had experimental cattle ranches there and they were experiment-
4
23 ing with the, you know , cross-breeding and this type of thing .
1
24 Fidel was preoccupied with this_ He went up to
8
25 Canada and paid S100 000 for a bull and Ia So he just put it
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on an old Cuban Airways airplane The damn airplane few too
3 2
high and the bull became sterile by the time he landed in
1
5
Cuba No thought given- to, You know , pressurizing the cabin
L
and keeping the temperature at a certain point and this type
5
of thing_ So he was helping us all along the line and
this here again, we generate propaganda _ incompetence and this
7
type of. thing _
8
But as far as sabotaging any Cuban product, no , we
didn t 9o into that_ Our object was to enforce the blockade
10
and cut off his sources of supply .
11 When was the Miani Station established?
12 As a station? 1
5 13 Yes .
2
5
3 14 I think in September 1961-
15 And that was several Years before you became involvedl
16 in Cuban matters?
17
A Yes .
18 Do you know of any other facilities of that nature
19 within the United States, Agency facilities?
1
i 20 A You mean , targeted against the opposition?
21 Yes_
|
22 A_ station as such?
4
;
23 Yes .
5
: 24 A No . You have some communications facilities that
L
9
25 You really call stations because here again, they are not
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1
directed towards any domestic activity. They are in support of
3 2 overseas communications
1
3 Of course, we have FR bases and DCD offices and
1
4 Office of Security officers, and So forth.
5 A Right.
6 But I am talking about actual stations
7 Operating stations , no
8 This is the only such station in the United States
as Ear as You know is that correct?
10 Right.
11
And was this station established to deal primarily
12 with Cuban activities?
1
A Yes .
0 13
2
4
Cuban-related matters?
3 14
15
With Cuba , period
Did it have , Tvhen it was established, any other
16
responsibilities with respect to Western Hemisphere activitiesd
17
A Not to my knowledge _
18
Entirely linited, then to Cuban activities?
19
1
A Yes , and in support of Cuban activity and other
20 5
countries in the Hemisphere
21 L
When You joined the group dealing with Cuban
22
4 activities, what was the size or the nunber of personnel
23
:
6 attached to that Station?
24 1
3 To that Station? Well, the Station had probably a
25
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couple hundred staffers there, full-time employees of the
1
8 2
Agency , plus I don t know how many contract employees
1
5
independent contractors
f
probably another. 200 minimum It was
L
4
obviously the largest installation we had I think at its
5
height it had over 500 people in it.
6
Full-time Agency people?
7
No , no
8
Combination of contract and
9
And full-time, yes A regular employee we call a stalff
10
employee
11
Now would Martinez have been one of those contract
12
1 people?
4
13
Yes _
2
{ 14 Even though he was located down in the Keys?
15
Oh , yes.
16 And what kind of facilities did the Station have in
17 Miami? Pbysical facilities
18
A Well, were located on the south campus of the
19 University of Florida I mean , the University of Miami, at {
20 the old Richmond Naval Air Station. It was a self-contained 8
21 unit. It Was pretty well off the beaten path , in fact, damn |
22 well off the beaten path _ It was about four miles from the
9
23 Dixie Highway inland _ We had our Own guard force
1
1 24 Official cover?
2 from
7 25 No . Non-official Photocopy
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1
Non-official cover What was the cover?
3 2
A It was a commercial cover. It was called 24 o the first
1
5
one was called Zenith Corporation and it was set up with a 1
4
President and Vice President, normal corporate setup .
5
Engaging in any business?
6
No .
7
Now in a community of that type Cuban community ,
8
how long could 2 non-official cover last?
9
A Well , obviously it didn't, but it was research
10 activities. Funded T ^ it:is a giant mechanisn when you put
11
one of these things in for the funding and this type 0f thing ,
12 for: your: ostensible customers , establishing bank accounts 1
4 13
Yes, I understana _
8
} 14
A So it was a research activity ana the only people tha
15
ever paid any attention to the place were the newspapers You
16
know, somebody would make an inquiry, You know_ we can t accept
17
any work, we are loaded with Government contracts and this
18 type of thing, and it held up reasonably well And out of
19 this: onev thing, of course, then we were running these innumera - 1
8 20 ble other covers with different activities . The guard
21 force, of course, were like o0 4
well, they wore uniforms , simila
L
22 to the Pinkerton people and this type of thing. And I think
4
23
that there was 3 in the later days at that site I think the 1
1 24 Department of Agriculture had offices in there and some other
2
t 25 Government agencies , in other buildings , of course_
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And this particular Station, then , was under the
3
3 1 2 supervision of the group we have been discussing?
1
3
A Yes. They were staffed within the Cuban Operations
L
4
When did the Western Hemisphere Division resume
5 responsibilities for the Miami Station?
6 Well, when Des Fitzgerald left as Chief of the
Special Activities Staff and became Chief of the Western
8 Hemisphere Division, he brought it back into the Division
9 Is there presently a Miami Station?
10 Oh , yes
11 And how large is it at the present time?
12 A Well, since we J I think when we closed down the 1
4 13 Cuban Operations , I don: 1 t know how large it is at the present
2
0
: 14 time because we are in one of these periods: where we -are
15 reassigning people, but I think bY the end of this fiscal Year
16 there 7 are going to be between 11 and 14 people_
17 When You joined the group in 1963 ,- what functions
18 were being performed by the Miami Station?
19 Well, all the classical intelligence functions I 1
20 think I have lined them out at:one time 35 collection of :
21 positive intelligence, coun terintelligence , paramilitary, this
|
22 type of thing . Covert action.
W
v 23 This is the list of things you gave me earlier in 1
1 24 the deposition?
:
25 Yes . Photocopy from
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Which of these activities , if any of them were
8 2
actually being conducted within the Cuban community in Miami?
1
5
A Well, the collection of foreign positive and probably
4
counterintelligence.
5
So the Agency was conducting counterintelligence
6
activities in the Miami area?
7
A Yes , sir.
8
Can you me an example of the kinds of counter-
9 intelligence activities that the Agency would be conducting
10
in that area or was conducting in the area at that time?
11
A Well
8
we had a number of joint operations , as I
12 recall, with the Bureau We had identified a Castro agent that 1
# 13
came in by small boat and when she was she came in with a
3
3 14
number of other people _ When she hit the D
they had a recep-
15
tion center up in Opa Loca that was really a HEW operation _
16
The Domestic Contact Division office had people out there. and
17
we did, too_ Our people from the DDO were under Immigration
18 andy Naturalization Service: cover. When the HEW people dia the
19 preliminary interrogation: of these people they had to. fill
1
8 20 out forms where_were You born , this type of thing , biographic
0
21
type thing _ These forms would be passed to our peopte who would
L
22 look at the forms and based on previous experience or what
W
M
8
23 they might have been doing, ad they felt that perhaps they
6
{ 24 might have some information of intelligence value , they woula
1
2
6 25 reinterrogate then .
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3 It was in this manner that this gal came to our
8 2
knowledge We surveilled her for a long time and determined
1
5
that obviously she was receiving messages and she was
sending messages So along with the Bureau we put a surveillante
5
on her and we obtained a van with DF equipment in it and
6
indeed, she went on the air in the morning at 5:00 0' clock
7
or 4 :30 or whatever it was , and the direction finder found
8
it was being beamed toward Cuba , this type of thing , and that
9
was aen of the examples of the CI activities we were involved
10
in.
11
Were there many activities of that type?
12
1 Vot really. You nave got to remenber that the
# 13
Bureau 5 Cuban squad was fairly small I mean , it was a large 1
14 squad in terms of FBI squads_ It had 36 people on it, some-
15 thing lixe that, but 36 people trying to follow a couple of
16
hundred thousand Cubans around, you know _ it is pretty nega -
17
tive_ This was one of the reasons that obviously from
18
in those days when we had formed these revolutionary fronts
19 which were being run by the Cuban exiles , they were reporting 1
U 20
to Case Officers and they would report on things in the
0
6 21 community, of people they thought were suspect and this type L
22
of thing . These leads in turn were then given to the Bureau
4
0 23
; and it was to this extent that we ourselves involved
6
1 24 in CI activity.
2
25 Moula it be fair to say that the involvenent in CI
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1
3 activities in that area was primarily 3 function of the over-
8 2
whelming number of these people and the Bureau 5 inability
1
3
to properly staff the thing? L
4
A Yes , yes You have to remember , too , that a lot
5
of the people on that Cuban squad were in the legal section
6
of the Embassy in Havana You know the FBI overseas is
7
known as Legal Attaches , obviously working out of the Embassy
8
the same as our Station was , and a lot of our Station officers
9
Erom Havana were down in Miami at that time So there was a
10
relationship there that hac gone over a period of years
11
between the Agency and the Bureau:
12
1 MR MANFREDI : We will reconvene at 1:00 0'clock -
4 13
(Whereupon , at 11:45 0 'clock a.m . the taking of 1
14
the deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 1:00
P. Il . , this
15
sane day.)
16
17
18
19 1
20 9
21
L
22
W
6;
23
8
5
24
<
25
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AFTERNOON SESSIOH 1
2
Thereupon ,
1
1
5
WILLIAM C. STURBITTS
L
callea as a witness bv Counsel for the Commission on CIA
4
5
Activities , and having been first duly sworn by the Notary
Public, was examined and testified as follows :
6
7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION (Cont'd)
8 BY MR . MANFREDI:
Wvhen we recessed for lunch you were talking about the
9
Miami Station Do I understand that the Miami Station was the
10
largest CIA station in the world?
11
A The largest CIA station in the world
12
[
At its height?
0 13
1
4 Nothing comes anvplace close to it.
14
I wonder if you could describe briefly for the record
15
what the AMoTs were.
16
A_ Nell, the AoTs
were Cuban a Cuban intelligence
17
organization in exile. We full intended It IL this was part of the
13
overall contingency plan that US Governnent had_ Should Castro
19
ever be overthrown , these people would be the nucleus to go into
20 8
Cuba and form a new Ministry of the Interior
21 |
Now , Ministry Of the Interior, is that 3 euphemigm
3
22
4 €or Security Agency?
23
8
5 A_ Nell, in nost countries of the worla the Ministry of
24 3
Interior
1
unlike ours , is the security force, internal and.
2
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And these people were Cuban exiles?
{
2 A_ Cuhan exiles. 3
1
3 How large an outfit were the AMOTS ?
1
4 A Well, at one time
t I can give vou the exact figures
but I knowv it well exceeded over 100 , probably closer to T
6 Go ahead_
7 A Probably closer to 150 , something like that.
8 Now would that 150 persons Je included within the
9 three to 500 who made vp the Miami Station?
A No . 10
That was over and above the personnel of the Miami
11
Station?
12
1
A. Right.
0 13
1
These people were fulltine CIA employes, weren t thev?
2 14
A Right_ WEll, let ne t Tn
these people really were u 15
thev were being subsidized the Agency. Ther were employed
16
by"#ivo:cover'companies , the largest of which was called Latin
17
American Social and Economic Research Then we had another
18
smaller aroup that did the interrogating and they were under
19
2
another 'cover , comnercial tcover ,
405 I just don' t recall what it
20 8
was: But these peop.e ostensibly were employees of these wholly
21
L
owned proprietaries of the Agencv . They were
duly constituted ,
22
4 incorporated , taxes all this type of thing.
23
8
5 The salaries of these people, although paid indirectly
24 2
were paid by the CIA? 9
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A That is right.
3
3 2 And was training provided then by the Agencv?
1
3 Oh , ves
L
4 A. You said the smaller group of the two groups that madel
5 up the AMOTS conducted the interrogations, is that correct?
6 A Right_
When you speak of interrogations , are you referring ta
8
debriefings?
9 A I am referring to debriefings of newly arrived exiles
10 or perhaps exiles that had heen in the country whom during their
11
time here had acquired new information.
How were those how and where were those debriefing
12
1
conducted?
0 13
3
A Well, nortally the debriefings were conducted at Opa
3 14
Loca .
15
That is the Air Base?
16
A That is the old Air Base there but that i5 where the
17
reception center was for all the Cuban refugees coming in.
18
19
1
Sometimes if there was qoing to be a lengthy debriefing , we had
20 8
a residence which we rented and the interior was changed into
21 7
small roons like this [here Vou could bring people in, sit them
22
W
v down , under controlled conditions and debrief then without any
23
1
interference and this tvpe of thing_
24
9 For how long a period did these debriefings go on?
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A_ Yo1 mean in terns of Years?
3
2 Yes . 3
1
3 A Well, I would think that I would probably say from
1
about 1962 , and I think the debriefings as such, of course
5 we relied principally on the airlift for the neople coming out
and when the airlift was cut off, which Castro did
Ina m cut off
about, I guess about 1970 or in that timeframe
I see. 8
9 A that storped the flow of the refugees , So we just
terminated that part of the activity.
10
Well in addlition to debriefing refugees that came 11
in in the airlift, did the smaller group of AMOTS have any other
12
1
intelligence gathering functions
0 13
8
A No .
3 14
In the connunity?
15
A Well, I can't give' you a real yes or no to that. I
16
would suppose that there is an outside possibility' they could
17
have been used to debrief people within the communi within
18
the Cuban community , but we had in the- organization
43 all these
19
1
people were Cuban with the exception of we had what we call an
20 5
On-Site Case Officer , who was a fulltime staff employee and he
21 L
had a couple of assistants; including a secretary _ These peoplel
22
4 were directly under his control: Though the organization as it
23
1
was set up, they had their Own chief and this type of thing,
24 1
but the chief took his instructions from the On-Site Case Officet.
8
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7 Of course, if these people went out and did some thing on
3 2 their Own , they could do things we were not aware of, obviously
1
5 You can t T tt you know Ivhat they are doing during their eight or
1
ten hours that thev are going to work everyday but once they
5 leave, we don t know Ihat are up to.
Did they have CIA credentials?
A No sir, because they were proprietary hires of this
8
commercial cover
9
Did CIA levv anv intelligence requirements
upon these
10
people other than in their duties Ad in their debriefing
capacity, I should sav?
11
A No . When D & there were obviously there was a 12
{
4 standard debriefing forn that covered questions of intelligence
0
13
2
<
interest or a battle, you know anything econonic questions,
3 14
morale, and this type of thing . When these questions when
15
these people were cebriefed and the debriefer wrote up the
16
report, it would be sent from the AMOTS over to the Station.
17
If the debriefing report contained sone thing of positive
18
intelligence, of that nature, the Case Officer 1 u well, not the
19
1
Case Officer but a staffer in the Station may Or may not jot
u 20
6
down some additional requirements and ask that that person be
21
L
recontacted and asked specific questions .
22
4 Now , in addition to debriefing, what else did this
23
1
smaller broup of AMOTS do for the Agency in the Miami area?
24 7
0 A This was their prime Durnose.
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Fow large was that particular group?
{ 2 A_ there were only about, I would say at the outside
1
I think there were about five debriefers with the support peoplel
1
which would he secre taries, translators , strictly administrativel
5 types . I don't think there were more than probably 12 or 15
6 in that group, 1f there Were that many .
7 MR . MANFRRDI: Off the record _
8 (Off the record discussion)
9 BY MR . MANF RFDI: Back on the record _
16 Before Fe move on to further discussion of the AMOTS
11
could. you briefly describe for_ me That role the CIA plays in
12
resettling Cuban emigres?
1
A CIA doesn 8 t resettle Cuban emigres .
4 13
8
14
What Agency is charged with that responsibility?
3
A_ Health, Education and Welfare.
15
Does CIA plav any role in that process?
16
A Ne may assist if we are_ asked but the idea of the whole
17
airlift was having relatives here for somebody to claim you when 18
you came in 90 Youl wouldn t becone a ward of the State of the
19
1
Government, and nornally when these refugees came in, they were 20 8
processed through the Center and then they had a place down on 21 1
Biscayne Boulevard they called Freedom House and this was, of
22
W
17 course, all run by HEN , and they
A
if need be and they had to 23
8
5 stay overnight or stav several days , KEW would put them up and
24
3
1
2 care for then in Freedom House.
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Then as soon as thev could, of course, would move ther
7
2 to the areas where wanted to resettle them where the {
1
5 relatives were, this tvpe of thing, and we had nothing to do
L
4 with that whatsoever .
5 Turning back to the AMOTS and to the larger of the
6 two groups , what was the name of that group again?
7 A_ SA SER, Latin American Social and Fconomic Research.
8 We can call them LASER for short?
9 A Really , they are both m m the onlv reason we separated
10
the two groups was for security because we had one group housed
over here and the smaller group was over here Obviously we 11
12
couldn t bring these refugees into the larger establishment, So
5
that is why we"'took the smaller establishment to preserve some
4
13
1
cover
;
14
What activities was the larger group engaged
15
in?
16
A WEll, the larger group was engaged in the collection
17
of intelligence. Zhey compiled dossiers on the principals
18
inside Cuba carded ~o 77
they kept card files on every
19
1
refugee that came through the reception center _ They provided
20 8
they did do economic and social reporting. They put out a 1 21
1 monthly newsletter based on the information they collected
22
5 The information these people collected a5 opposed to the
23
1
information we collected . ther' s was all unclassified_ That
1 24
L: 2 came from a11 the information they had came from human sources
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or overt publications . We subscribed 444
well, the proprietary
1
1
{ subscribed to a number
8 a great many newspapers , periodicals,
17 2
Spanish language type things .
1
3
Well, they were doing clandestine collections as well
4
weren' t they?
5
AS I don' t know if you could call it clandestine. What
6
did you have in mind?
7
Well, would run agents in the community?
8
A Well, ves , there were penetrations of the Cuban
9
communi yes_
10
And that is clandestine collection, isn't it?
11
A WEll, I call that human resources.
12 All right. Where are these files now? 1
13
A_ are in the Headquarters here. 4 great many of
2
0
} 14
them were really destroyed _ It got to be rather comic. We
15
went down there several years ag0 just looking through the filesl
16
to see what kind of shape thev were in and they had such great
17 information for intelligence value in there as a picture of a
18 gal who might be the daughter of a Cuban refugee who just won
19
a swimming meet. It got rather ridiculous So we purged those 1
20 files and took out that material, you know , which just didn'&
2
21 have any pertinancy at all
0
2 22 How are the files organized? You indicated before tha
4
23 there is a card, index card for each Cuban refugee? 1
: 24
4_ Right.
K 9
7 5 25 Are there soft cover files as well?
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A Yes,
1
2 For each Cuban refugee? 3
1
3 A No . Not for each Cuban refugee. I think, as I
1
recall
0
those card files were up in the milli-ns and I forget,
5 we had I guess the manilla files , probably went into the tens
6 of thousands , I would think
7 Now , is there any way to determine from those files
8 which of those exiles have become United States citizens?
9 A_ No way .
Has there been any effort to make such a determina-
10
tion?
11
A We made an effort at one time but this
5 You can 12
1
become nationalized out in California and your record of
4 13
2
0
nationalization wouldn t be reflected here in Nashington for
> 14
two years. That is how far thev are behind .
15
So I take it 3 0 16
A_ So there is no central index vou can go to. I mean ,
17
there is a central index you can 9o to but it i5 not current.
18
I take it, then, that there is a possibility that the
19
1
CIA has sone files in Miami or here in Langlev on Cubans who
20 8
are now American citizens?
21 L
A Absolutely true.
22
4 No1 , . are any of those files likely to contain
23
1
derogatory information about the individuals involved?
0 24
2 As Well, no One of the things these people of
7 25
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course, we had targets for recruitment . It coula range from
1
2 anything from a first mate, a captain or chief engineer of a {
1
5 Cuban maritime vessel to Fidel When we targeted these people
4 as possible recruitments , for possible recruitment, we would ask
that all the information on that individual be assembled So that
we could do a complete target study
Tn V
habits
?
you know
evervthing right down the line In case of some of the more
important ones , of course, we had psychological studies prepared
where we had enough information. But this is one of the things
these people did. If we said we wvant everything you have on the
10
first mate of the ~ a one of the Cuban ships, then they would
11
start looking through the papers or anything else to come up 12
6
with anything they could on Tvhat the guy' $ current activities
4
13
2
4 are, his background, his life habits , this tvpe of, thing.
} 14
Well, the AMOTS were going to be the intelligence
15
service of Cuba?
16
A_ Right_
17
And they obviously were going to perform some functionl
18
in addition to recruitment of agents?
19
1
A: Right_
20 5
I take it they were trained in counterintelligence,
21 1
gathering of positive intelligence , recruitment and all of the
22
4 traditional skills, is that correct?
23
;
5 A That is about right_
7 24
3 L
2 So I trust that they had files that Tere anassed for
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purposes other than recruitment?
1
2 A__ Well 3
1 3 For example, let me ask you this. Were any of these
L
4
files on Cubans who were suspected or thought to be a possible
5 internal security problen?
6 A No . No . Thev didn't keep those types of files- We
7
would simply task then with through your sources what do you
have on SO and So . They would not be tola the reason we
9
wanted the infornation on anvbody .
Well, I quess with several million fiels or several
10
million cards and tens of thousands of files it is difficult to
11
make generalizations about the kind of information that is in
12
3
those files?
4 13
1
A Nell, that is right-
2 14
So I guess I won ' t ask you to do So , but I want to ask
15
You this. I trust that there is the possibility that some of
16
these files do contain what you in the trade refer to as deroga
17
tory information?
18
A I would assue SO .
19
1
And that S0 much of them may some of the subjects
J
20
j
of those files may now be American citizens?
21 1
Right.
< 22
4
And finally I take it that no effort has been made to
23
;
5 study that particular situation?
24
:
2 A WEll, Ie did make an effort to do it at one time:
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You know , we have a traveler progran where when Cubans travel,
7
2 whether they are on an island or perhaps other Places , their 3
1
3 names turn up on manifests and this type of thing . Well, these
L
4
are put into a machine system_ What we did when these cards
5 were all transferred back here in Miami , we did go through then
at random and pick out cards and then try to match it uP with
7 what the machine system had to see if there was updated informa m
8
tion in the machine system that would show that this guy had
becone a naturalized citizen, and it didn' t work out. So 4a4 F 9
Excuse me , off the record,
10
(Off the record discussion)
11
MR MANFREDI: Back on the record
12
5
BY MR . MANFREDI :
0 13
2
I want to straighten out confusion in my Own mind
{ 14
where these files presently reside. The cards I take it are
15
presently here in Washington?
16
A The cards and what is left of the files.
17
0 That is the soft cover files?
18
A Yes.
19
1
And
20 8
A: I assume they are either here or down at the
21 1
Records Center .
22
4 And where is the computer system?
23
1
AJ You mean our machine system? We have
24
9 The machine here that vou tried to match up with the
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1 information on the cards?
1
3 2 Right down on the third floor
1
3 That is not tre hydro system?
L
4 A Oh , no , no
5 This is a separate
6 4 This is a complete the Latin American Divisioni
uses this particular system.
8 What kind af records Ma etrike that.
9 The AMOTS are still in existence, aren' t thev?
A. No 10
T thought they Dere going out in June . 11
A Nell, okav. are on the books until June . 12
1
I see
0 13
8
A But they have all been let 9o . They were let 9o
} 14
they were all given six months ternination honuses and told to 15
go find a joh.
16
Do have any facilities, physical facilities, in
17
Miami at this time?
18
A no .
19
1
So there are no records in Miani?
( 20
c
A_ No . No . Ne brought all those records back here
21 1
Did the AMOTS have law enforcement responsibilities
22
W
J in the Miami communitv?
23
3
6 8 No . No .
: 24
9 Any affiliation with law enforcement groups?
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14 atlkE!
2
Not to nv knowledge _
{
2 what else did they do, this larger group of AMOTS that 3
1
5 was not doing debriefings?
L
4 A Well, Mhen they were trained in trade craft we would
5 send them to other countries , in Europe and within the Hemispherk
6 to train some of the local services in those countries. They
7
served as safe housekeepers in other countries. They served in
8
listening posts where we had audio
9
Foreign listening posts?
A Oh , Yes , foreign.
10
Any domestic listening posts?
11
A no . 12
domestic surveillances conducted by these people?
0 13
1
A I would assume a this I cannot answer because I reall
: 14
don' t know I know that they did a great number of things but
15
to my knowledge there wasn't any domestic surveillance
16
conducted by then .
17
Now , if it was conducted , and if it is a matter of record,
18
I don' t know where it could be.
19
1
What intelligence gathering activities did thev
& 20
0
conduct in the Cuban community in Miami?
21 L
A One_ of the problems we had was within that Cuban
22
4 communitv , as I said earlier, were sOnle of the militant anti-
23
:
5 Castro groups and this just drove the FBI and the Coast Guard
24
4 and Custons and in general the law enforcement US _ Government 8
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agencies in Miani plus the State government enforcement agencies 1
2 up the wall and , of course, I guess it was around ~ 4t the 3
1 Government allowed a lot of this to go on for awhile but I guess
1
4
about 1965 or 1964 they got a little tired of it and they
5
started to tighten up .
6
I am sure the AMOTS were in part responsible for proposing
alerting uS and in turn we alerted the enforcement agencies when=
there was going to he a raid against Cuba by one of these
militant groups. A number of times raids were aborted , picked
up by the Coast Guard or Florida Coastal Patrol or the Bureau,
1C
this type of thing .
11
These people were arrested?
12
1
A: Oh , ves _
J 13
8
Prosecuted?
$ 14
A Not really.
16
Any of them American citizens?
18
A Not to my knowledge.
17
This would be Alpha 66 type groups?
18
A I don t know whether this guy t # well, you know ,
19
1
are still after this Masferrer and this guy Donestevez. I don
20 3
know if they ever did get hin in jail but they had hin up on
21 L
S0 many charges and he was a Cuban exile that made it big here .
22
lu He was a boat manufacturer small boats , but whether he ever
6 23
J
served any time or not I don t know I know he was convicted
24
4L
9 but he was always walking around Miami when I was there. So
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I truthfully don t know whether any of these people ever went 1
2 to jaul or not. 3
1
5 Other than identifying operations by militant anti-
1L
4
Castro groups , what other intelligence gathering did the AMOTS
5 engage in?
A_ Well, of course, there was a
counterintelligence
I wouldn t call it a project but a counterintelligence_ interest
at that time because we knew that they were infiltrating agents
8
Cubans were?
9
A The Cuban Government_ couldn t do it very well
10
on the airlift because as I said before, the aged , infirm, and
11
young , but they did infiltrate them by small boat. And I don' t
12
1
T m
well, we had knowledge that this was on and we did to
0
13
1 identify those ,people whon we thought would be suspect._
: 14
Was that done in cooperation with the Bureau?
15
A With the Bureaul, ves .
16
Because of their manpower limitations you folks were
17
in a better position to do it?
18
4 Yes , and language-wise, too That is always a
19
1
factor.
j 20
6
And this was conducted through the AMOTS?
21
L
A_ Yes.
22
4 How substantial was the counterintelligence operation
23
1
in the community?
24 1
3 A WEll, it wasn 't that They identified not what I
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would call a great number of suspect infiltrees, but thev did
3
; 2 cone up with a few promising ones and ones it turned over to the
1
5 Bureau, of course, we have no idea what the hell ever happens
L
to it because , YOIl know
P vou just 1n unless you personally know
5 the guy in the Bureau that is handling the case, you might as
well forget it. You have got too nany other things to do .
What other positive intelligence gathering activities
were they engaging in?
9 A Well, as I told vou, one part of them were engaged in
10 electronic intercept_
Where was that done?
11
A Down in Florda, down in Homes tead 12
1
This is Southeast of Homestead?
4 13
2
A Yes .
; 14
What ere they intercepting?
15
A Well, oriqinally they were set up to assist with the
16
commo for the infiltration
17
As we phased down the maritime activities, were made
18
available to intercept Cuban communications . NSA tasks them with 19
1
the frequencies they wanted covered and the Cuban Communlcations
U 20
6
nets they wanted covered such as the border .guards Another
21 7
important one was the sugar network We had the border guards,
22
uj
vi sugar, transportation, maritime . I think there was an interior
23
1
network they covered too, But all electronic intercept coverage_
24 1
2 is dictated by NSA _
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7 Now , since they belong to uS we could levy ceratin require
G 2 ments on then if we wanted to, which we did very infrequen
8
17
5 because the common interests , we have a common interest in
L
4
what NSA has an interest in and unless there were one particular
5
operation going that thev wanted to cover exactly what the Cubanls
were doing , then we would task our people with that.
For instance, we knew a Cuban vessel was taking arms into
Africa and our operators saw the thing leave Havana and then
there was absolute silence . So nobody knew where the thing was
16
But we knew arns were being loaded and we finally located the
boat in an African port, I mean the intercept operators did, when 11
#ame back on the air. And this is the type of thing . As _ 12
5
2 a matter of fact, they were unloading
arms in Algiers . And 200
0
13
%
Cuban troops .
3 14
MR _ MANFREDI: Off the record.
15
(off the record discussion)
16
MR _ MANFREDI : Let' s 9o back on the record
17
BY MR . MANFREDI :
18
Were the sommunications were intercepting
19
1 exclusively foreign communications?
& 20
6
A Exclusively foreign communications
21 L
Were they intercepting any communications,
one terminus
22
W
41
of which was the United States?
23
1
A No .
: 24
2 These were basically Cuban Government 'communications?
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OelREI b
A Right.
1
1
3 On the Island?
8 2
A. Right_
1
3
Ox between the Island and other locations? 1
4
A Yes.
5
But not between the Island: and the United States?
6
A No . Let' s Jo off the record on that.
7
(Off the record discussion)
3
BY MR . MANFRFDI:
To vour knowledge were the 'AMOF engaging in the
10
intercept of any communications , either that facility or else-
11
where, in the Miani area or in the southern part of the country?l
12
1 A No .
0 13
Of other communications? 2
2
2 14
A No .
15
Is that their only ,intercep: facility?
16
4 (Nods affirmative)
17
Do you know of your own personal knowledge
04 strike
13
that Do you have any knowledge of any wiretaps surveillances ,
19
1 breakins or activities of thgt type other than what #e have
J 20
discussed = # 6
21
A No sir.
L
22
that were conducted by the AMOTS?
4
23
A No sir, I want to go off the record a minute. J1
2 24
(Off the record discussion)
2
7 25
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BY MR_ MANFREDI: 1
3
I understand that a study of the history of the AMOTS
3 2
has been prepared by one of your members . 1
5
A_ That is right_
4
What is his name?
5
4 I think it i5 Joaquin ~ E I can t remember the last
6
name The poor guy is dead now anvway . Nell, I will just have
7
to get that for you-
8
What is the title of the study?
A The title of the studv
5 Io it is part of the historical
1C
series of the Miani Station and I think it i5 just entitled "Thel
11
11 AMOT Organization.
12
What is the historical series of the Miami Station?
#
13
E A ~It was done when Paul Hennessey was down there What
0
3 14
we try to do as we go along , from year to vear, is set aside
15
what is considered to be some of the more siginificant things
16
the station might do or that might occur in the station personneh
17
wise, this tvpe of thing, and then these things are written.
18
I See,
19
1
A At intervening periods of time
20 i
When Ivas this particular report prepared , the AMOTS?
21 1
A I think it was prelared in 1967 or '68.
2 22
It is a
fairly lengthy document , isn't it? 4
23
5
A Yes .
J
: 24
And purports to be a fairly complete history of the
2
25
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1 activities of the AMOTS?
5
2 4 It starts back in 1959 when we first started using
3
1
5 this gent.
L
4 First started using what?
5 A_ First started using, I forget what his name was_
6 I see. Is it a 'chronological study of their activi-
ties?
A Yes.
8
9
And you have a copv of that in your custody?
A Yes .
10
I would like to see that document. And we will
11
and obtain it through Mank Knoche 8 S office.
12
3
A
2
13
2
4
Excuse me just for a minute.
3 14
(Off the record. discussion)
15
MR . MANFREDI: On the record.
16
BY MR . MANFREDI: I wonder if vou would
a & let me ask vou
17
this. There have been some allegations in the press that
18
prominent newsmen in te Miami area have in the past been agents
19
1
of the CIA
20
Mr_ Olsen just came into the office and I asked him to join
21
uS because some of your involvenent in Cuban activities in the
22
Agency in the Miani area touch peripherally on some of the thing
23
had has been charged with investigating, S0 I am going to turn
24
the examination over to him for whatever time he needs
0 25
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O6&*61
MR _ OLSEN: Thank vou , George.
Y AR OLSEN:
2
3
Can vou begin, since I have not been in on the begin-
3
ning of the interview here, can you start off, Mr . Sturbitts,
by giving ne about a one or two minute resume of what Your
3
contacts Were with the Cuban elements in Florida and elsewhere
6
withing this country on benalf of the Agency?
A {ell I was a nember of the Special Activities Staff
which was in effect the Cuban cask force at Headquarters and the
Miami Station functioned under the Special Activities Staff in
1c
a variety of intelligence collection and operations .
11
2 WTho was the head of the Special Activities Staff?
12
: 4 Desmond Fitzgerald.
1
7
13
And who was his immediate superior?
11
2 14
Dick Bissell. Excuse ne No . At that time it was
13
Dick Helms He was the DEP
16
Deputy Director for Plans?
17
Deptuty Director Plans .
13 What period of time are we talking about now?
19
A Me are talking in the period" of 1963 to 1965 .
3
20
MR . MANFREDI: off che record_
21 (Off the record discussion)
22
BY MR . OLSEN :
23
So vou were not involved in this Special Activities
24
Group during the 1959 to 61 period?
25
4 #o
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:or
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Or the period leadirg uP Zo the of Piqs?
1
No.
2 2
And vOu were not involvea in this program at all during
1
the sane time that 5, Ioward Hunt as involved in it?
No
Do vou know Tvhat ~ne positior was Mr Hunt occupied in:
connection with the Cuban operations of the Agency during the
period of 1959 to '61?
To my recollecticn, ioward Hunt was on the Covert
Action Staff dealing in propaganda
1C
Was this propaganda directed to the Cuban people in
11
this country?
12
1 No . Cuban people aproad.
0 13
And what-Ivas his connection with the planning for the
3
3 14
Bay of Pigs?
15
I would have to review the record to really answer
16
that. I don' t know
1 7
Didn t he spend an awful lot of time in the Miami
18
area?
19
He commuted quite a bit.
20 Between Mashington ana
21 Washington and Miani
22
M 1 and Miami During the period of 1960 and early
23
61?
24 Right-
25
Mr. Hunt has stated in his interviews and in his
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#50 90##@ 0
1 published materials that he was the person who was in charge of
3
2
organizing a political unit among Cubans in this country which {
;
2 would constitute the Cuban government in exile. Do you recall
4
where that was?
5
That could be quite true.
Have You reviewed Xr, Sturbitts, the Agency S entire
files relating in any .ay to the Cuban operations and particu-
8
larly with reference to whether they reflect anv contacts
9
betweer the Agenc- Frark Sturgis?
Yes .
1C
Or Frank Fiorini?
There is no relationship.
12
1
0 Is it vour testinony that the records and files of
4
13
2
4
the Agency reveal no officiai or unofficial contact of any
} 14
nature with Frank Sturgis?
13
A To mv knowlecige :hat is true
16
I take it Eron that that you are emphatic in your
17
testimony that he was never an employee of the Agency?
12
4 Extremely emphatic.
2
19
1
And vou are also equally emphatic to the effect that
20 2
he was never a contract agent of the Agency?
21 7
A Exactly.
22
1 Do vou know whecher he ever served in the capacity
23
1
of being an informer or informant to the Agency?
1 24
9 4 It is possible that he could have been a source
7 25
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###0#0 #
2 YOn mean a source of TI
{
2 4 Source of information of another aqent. Another 3
1 agencv agent.
4
Do the files of the Agency reflect any matter?
To mv knorledge I Fon' t recall anything like that buz
it is entirely possible that chat could have happened without
being a matter of record
Do the files of the Agency reveal any instance what-
ever in which Frank Sturgis Nas ever asked to undertake anv
kini of an cperation or activity on behalf of the Agency?
1c
To my knowlecige. rothing_
11
Do the files of the Agency reveal any evidence
12
1
whatever that Frank Sturgis *as ever paid anything directly or
4
13
3
2
indirectly the Agency?
2 14
Ta Mv know] edge , 2o
12
If Now when vou say to my knowledge , in answer
16
to some of these questions , 4o I understand that to mean that
17
you are Jiving us the full benefit of your knowledge on the
12
basis of a full reviem of the Agency S records and files?
19
1
1 On Frank Sturgis, ves_
20
C Okav . During the period of time that vou were with
21
the Special Activities Group Iron 1963 to '66 , Eirst of all,
22
can Fou tell uS when that began in 1963?
22
When the Special Activities Group
24
No . When vour contact with the Special Activities
25
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no"
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1
Group began?
3
2 A It began n I well, it began around June of '63 .
3
1 Now , with particular reference to the last half of
1963 , including whatever period in June 63 may not have been
involved , were there a Great nanv Cubans in the southern United
States who were acrive in ~evolutionary fronts that were being
7
sponsored by the Agency?
Wellm vou mean Acencv sponsored fronts?
Yes.
The Agencv subsicized these fronts in an effort to
have unity rather than these split factions, split anti-Castro
11
factions Obviously the leaders-of the fronts knew that the
12
1
CIA was subsidizing. Supposedly the people that joined these
4
13
9
<
fronts ciid not now thev Mere being subsidized by the Agency
2 1
or the T.S. Governnent.
15
18 But when vou sav supposedly , does the fact appear
16
to be otherwise?
17
NEll _ based on my experience with the Cubans and this
16
type of thing, and their pencnant to talk, I would think that
19
1
it Touldn" t take long for kzowledge of any subsidy to surface
20 1
itself.
21 1
Nas it your opinion and impression at that time, Mr
2 22
1 Sturbitts, that 3 great many Cubans considered thenselves to be
23
1
involved in the CIA organizecions?
: 24
2 Yes . Photocopy from
7 25
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1
And again with Particular reference to the Miami
3
3 2 area?
1
A_ Yes.
Was there also Cuban activity
of this sort elsewhere
in the (nited States? 1 an asking now particularly with
reference to New Orleans.
4. There was some Cuban presence in New Orleans I an
really not faniliar with shat happened in New Orleans that was
sort of a sidesnow tc Aiari_
But the same is 4 44 it is possible that some or the
sane Cuban organizations Xhich Were being
sponsored or funded
12
by the Agency also had acsivities or operations in New Orleans? 1
J
4 I don' t know 1f 7 can answer that, whe ther hai
2
3
the same functions . 1 xnaw that some funding
arrangement for
subsidizing the organizations
in Miami was carried out through
New Orleans .
Well,
can vou he nore specific about wvhat vou mean
by that?
13
A. Well, in other words, to fund these organizations
0 we
1
2c
were subsidizing there nad :O be some ostensible source of J
0
21
income for then to continue what they were doing . A great 7
nunber An 4 well not 2 great number but a 22 number of select
22
people were 4 44 Iell_ were selected and then were
24
talked to, to pose as trustees, if vou would or directors or
T 25
whatever vou might have of some of these organizations in order
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they
chey
they
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#
1 to get the funding thrcigh to the organizations-
3
These people were nornally prominent people and 8
1 And did thev get funded the Agency , then, through
L
the mdeium of prominent and well-to-do people?
4 These weil-+o-ro people ostensibly would call 3 friendi
of theirs that had neen made trustee of another tvpe of activit?
and say , You know ve 2re trying to assist these Cubans in this
type of thing. Could vour organization give us any monev , and
the guy: on the other end would say , sure, #F can probably lena
10 you 825 noq or something iire that, or donate 525,000 . This is
the way the funding went irto the fronts
12
And was sone of chat funding arranged throuqh people
5
in `ew Orleans?
0
12
2
2
I woulc think so I believe
: 14
Mere any of che people in New Orleans through whom
18
that funding operation was effected people who turned out to be -6
involved in the investigations conducted bv Jim Garrison?
17
3 Not +0 ay xnowlerce _
12
How about David Ferrie? Was he ever connected with
19
1
the Agency in anv nanner at all in providing funds or assistance
J 20
0
to Cubans or Cuban groups?
21 L
I couldn' t sav_ 1 an just not familiar with I T we had
22
4 2 great manv people thar riid this.
23
8
6 Hor about Clay Shaw? Nas Clav Shaw ever used as a
: 24
8 funding source?
25
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#0 #00& #
1
This I do rot know either.
~e 2 Pardon?
2
;
7 4 This I don 1 know .
4 BY MR . MANFRFDI:
2 Where wouic that information be available?
€ 1 Well we nave A fUY that "sed to work with me who was
7 Zown in New Orleans at that -ime_ He would probably know.
6 Is he in the puildirg?
9 4_ Yes
Nhat is his name?
1-
Bill Kent.
1
Bill Kent'
12
1
A_ Yes_
13
9
BY `R _ OLSEN :
2 14
Who is Sillkenx with now? Which department?
12
He is still with the DDO
16
6Y' MR. MANFREDI :
17
Nestern Hemispnere Division?
12
No _ He is on one 0f the staffs. Me is on the Mn 4ut I
19
1
think Career Management Group Staff
2C
Is he officed near You?
2
4 No He i5 Gown in the basement _
22
BY MR. OLSEN :
22
Do the Agenc? Eiles reveal who the internediaries were
24
that Fvere used to prcvide funds to the
25
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#e ##a@ $
A Oh , ges.
1
a I to the Cuban movenents? 2 1
17 Yes.
L
Do vou know whehter 4 do You know the identity of anv
Of them in Mew Orleans?
4_ No . #o . Zctally {nfamiliar with anything that took
llace in New Orleans _
I take it chat Frank Sturgis was never an intermediary
for providing funds to the Cuban fronts?
A__ The files shat 1 1ave don' t reflect it.
I think we covered this already ;ust a few minutes agq
but let me make sure that ive have got it on the record
12
;
I understood vou to say that it was vour impression in 1963
4
13
2
6
that large numbers Or Cuban exiles , Cuban people in the souther:
: 14
United States, talked about and believed that they were involvedi
36
in the CIA sponsored activities. Is that true?
16
4_ That is right.
17
0 Nas i2 also Your understanding ana Your impression
12
that there was a good deal of talk among this Cuban elenent in
19
2
the southern Uniced States about plans or prospects for the
2c
assassination of Fidel Castro?
21
I would say no 1 don t think there was I You have
22
got to remenber chat chese people were enbittered: They lost
23
their homeland their possessions , they lost everything and theyi
24
blamed it all on one nan_
22
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A60868
That is Fiedl Castrc?
1
A That is right, and they would probably verbally do
2
anything they could to Get rid of him.
Nas there a lot of talk about killing Castro among
these Cubans?
A. I would say amonc the Cuban exiles there probablv was
a lot of talx about that.
Did You participate vourself in the overhearing of
such conversations?
c
4 No .
Mas this a natter of some thing that was reported to
you?
12
: 4 wiell it was 4 5 I really don t remenber what the
<
1
3
13
source of it was but I Xnow 1n mY discussions with people at che
2
5
: Station and Erom Nv visits fown there and that type of thing
13
that this subject alwavs cane "P . Nhat Iere they going to do
1
with Fidel? How are thev going to get rid of him and this type
17
of thing. I don t mean the Aqency people. This is what the
12
Cuban exile community ~as discussing.
1? Yes Do vou know Ivhat Howard Jiunt was doing for the
23 Agency in 1963?
21
4_ Well, it seems to me he Ias here at Headquarters in
22
'63 ani I tnink he was assigned to the European Division of the
23
DDP
2+ This is Your cest -ecollection
25
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20 #040 #
1
4_ Yes
{
2 aI at the noment Is it possible that he was with 3
;
: Domestic Operations Division in the field of proprietaries
engaged
2 A_ 1 guess vou are right, Yes . I believe he was there.
6
Did You zersonally know Howard Hunt?
A. No.
Never net nin?
4 1 met hin. Zhat 1s all. I can t say I know him.
You Ivould rot rave known anything about his where-
iC
abouts on any particular aay , then. Is that true?
11
A Can we Jo off the record? 12
:
(Off the record discussion. }
13
1
<
ZHE MITNESS : Let' $ go back on the record
2 14
BY MR . OLSEN :
18
I would like to have it on the' record
16
A Do You have a particular day?
17
Yo . I an jusz askinq vou if vour acquanitance with
12
Hunt was such that Yon would have known of his whereabouts on
19
any particular dav.
20
A_ :00
21
Nas it verv infrequently that You ever saw hin?
22
Oh , I Toula see nim in the halls, this type of thing,
23
but bunp into hin nerhans downtown on the street.
24
Sut vou would have 70 occasion for. knowing from one
25
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4750060
day to the next there he was?
7
2 4. No 3
1 Have vOI ever conducted any kind of inquiry on behalf
of the Agency as to where he was on Vovember 22 , 1963?
2 A Yes.
And when aid ~QII conduct that inquiry?
A I nave done it twice that I recall and the most recent
one was I guess I am Just trying to think. Nell, it wasn' €
too long aqo hecause Me did have an inquiry and We obtained the
time and the attenrance ~ecords fron the Office of Finance Ivnic:
showed that Howard Hunt was on sick leave on that
Was this just Eairly recently? 12
3
4 Yes.
3
13
:
I understood ircm Ihat files I have seen , Mr
:
Sturbitts, that the records that were available from the
-:
Office of Finance showed that he had had nine hours of sick leave
during the two-week pav ceriod ending the 23rd of November but
that the records were noc available as to how much sick leave
or annual leave had been taken on any particular
19
A Well
22
Am I nistaken?
21
As I recall_ he was in a status one and a
22
sick leave status the next and back to duty the next
22
I would have to check chat Qith my Budget and Fiscal Officer
24
[e is the cnan that cot that for me'
25
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day .
{
only
day .
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Jay day .
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1 Can vou check that for us?
3
~ Sure. 2 8
3
3 Q And give uS the results of that?
2
L
4 A Yes.
Because this is nucn more detailed information than
I have been previouly aware is available in the files of the
Agency .
1 All right. I Till do that.
8
BY MR . MANFREDI:
9
Do vou want to make a note of that?
1C
4 Let me have a piece of paper
11
YOn might also want Mr Sturbitts phone nunber which
12
5
{ is 351-5106 .
4
13
1
THE MITNESS: That was 22 November, right?
} 14
BY MR . MANFREDI:
15
That is the
16
1963.
17
In response to whose inquiry was that investigation
18
made?
19
1
1 I don' t know I would have to look that up . too, I
U
20
c don' t recall exactly Tho askea for it. I don t know whether
21 7
I will just have to check that_ I don t know who it was 0 22
4 And the date? Do vou have ary idea when you made the
23
;
5 inquiry?
:
24
No. But Ican find out from the B and F guy , hopefull_
9 25
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# 04#0 0
1
1 You said there was & previous inquiry?
1 2 A Yes . The previous inquiry cane from Archie Roosevelt
5
: who is now retired and was at that particular time the Chief of
European Division.
5 When was thar inquiry received?
A_ That was about a vear ago , I guess .
BY MR . OLSEN :
About the first time these photographs began to be
9
circulated?
1C A Yes.
11
About the bums in Dallas?
12 A Yes , and actually I think this I Archie 5 inquiry
1
4 13 camne from some magazine or newspaper man in Europe. Archie was
2
< 14
Chief:Qf Station, Loncon , for a long tine and he apparently
13
made a lot of acquaintances over there among the media.
16
This is something vou are relating to Der Sterm
Magazine?
17
A_ That is riqht.
12
19
And did I understand vou to sav that in checking with
1
the Office of Finance that it Ias positively ascertained that
: 20
0
Funt was on sick leave on November 22nd?
21 1
22,
A. Nell, I Will have to check that That is the way
3
23
I understood it but I did aet this through our Budget people whol
5
have the contact with the Office of Finance .
24
And that he was on annual leave the before? 25
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7
A. No . He as on 3 duty status the before , on sick
3 2 leave, and then on dutv status the following
1
BY MR _ MANFREDI :
1
0_ Was there any effort to determine what Mr. Hunt' s
previous pattern with respect to sick days had peen?
4 (Nods in negative)
BY MR . OLSEN :
November 22 , 1963 , was a Friday. When you say that
records reveal thaz he Was on a duty status the next day
1
It was 7 Fridav. Then I was mistaken.
Does thaz nean {e was on the following Monday
or on the next Saturday?
12
1
12 4 No . On the following Monday. I didn' t realize the
J
3
<
22na as a
Friday.
Wvill vou check that thing for uS and give uS a brief
memo together with whatever supporting
m u copies of supporting 14
documents you can find?
Okay.
12
As promptly as possible on this question. 19
1
I think that covers the subject matter.
20
1
AR_ MANFREDI: I can Give You another moment if You want. 21 1
5
Can Vou think of anything eise?
2 22
J
M
#R . OLSEN : I Lhink that is all_
23
; MR _ MANFRFDI: Okay . Off the record.
24
2 (Off the record discussion)
25
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1
BY MR = "ANFREDI:
1 I am sorr_ the interruption but
over the long
3 I think probably
I saved You some time.
We are about newspaper editors when
we were inte
5 rupted
a & or when I invited the interruntion.
I guess I ough to be fair.
Is it not 9 zact that the Agency had 3ome
some
relationship
W: prominent newspaper
officials
in the Miami
area?
A Yes.
And what
was she na ture Of that relationship?
J1 Tradi tionally
the Chief of Station maintained
the
12
relationship
with officials
of the Miami Hlerald ,
2
par 'ticularly
i
# 1
Latin' American
edi as Iell as relationships
7
with staff
2
'aembers of I think it i5 the Miani Jews and
te%other
stringers" for
newspapers and periodicals stationed in Miami
Mhat
was the purpose of those relationships?
4 I coulan
sav what the prupose of the relation
ship was. I mean, the same reason that we establish
a relation-!
7
with the press in this
1 town. There were certain
J 21
might come to the
thaj
C
attention of
the press involving
; and
true names
2-
incidents that ve felt shoula 1 perhaps not: be surfaced
at
2 22
particular time _
any
1
23 Do vou have any
; of use of the
; press in Miami
24 propaganda purposes?
25 ;
4 :o No _
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:
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't
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asl
7
Would You know if that were the case?
8 2
Mo . I really wouldn t know , but the relationship was 1
3
3 two-way street. It wasn simply that we assisted these
<
people as well as were assigint us
What assistance would You render for members of
8
the press in Miami?
Well_ in the case of the Latin Anerican editor
6
we would put hin 12 contact with the Chiefs of Stations of
C
areas he periodically visited and the Chiezs of Stations
would give him background briefings and chis type of thing
1
on the developments within a given country.
12
1 Was that done evenhandealy for various nelvspapers?
0 13
3
Predominantly , I would say probably the; Miami
(
3 14
#erald received probably a little more attention than the
16
other papers principally because" it was 2 large paper and
16
their Latin American editor traveled a great deal throughout
the Hemisphere
12
Was he also used as a source?
19
No . 1
20 3 Do newspapernen in Washington, D.C . , receive
21 sinilar briefings?
1
22 Yes _
v
22
; Ne talked with "r.Olsen for a short period of time
J
: 24
abcut fronts , revolutionary fronts How large were these
2
25 organizations?
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96 7
Well the nembership varied As I said, we were
{ 2
principally interested in the leadershi? of the organizations 1
3
Once the organization was established and the leadership took L
over , then would take care of enlisting the ,
I guess
5
getting membershi? fron the Cuban exile conmunity to join_
What were their functions the fronts?
A Well, it Ias to bring some unitz out of this chaotic
8
thing of the splinter grou?s and get as I said, it was a
9
political organization in exile
10
Did they conduc- any operations?
11
No , not that I know of
12
1 Just 1ixe a political party?
0 12
Like 2 zolitical party 1
14
How many of these fronts were there?
10
There were several of then I really don t remenber
i6
the names of ther Zhe FRD was one The Revolutionary
17
Democratic Front_ 1 guess that was probably the biggest one
12
And' there were soze others_
19
The RDF? 1
20 i FRD
21
I see _
L
22
A Front Revolutionary Democratic. It is the
4
22
1 Democratic Revoluzionary Front.
24 1 111 right. Are these groups still in existence?
2 ~ 7 25
I woula shink not I really don + know _
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abh 3 1
Is there a CIA station in Puerto Rico?
5
8 2
Ho. There Tvas but there isn t any more There
3
3 3
hasn E been one there for Years _
4 When Nas it disbanded?
5
I think che station was established around 1958
6
and 4 perhaps iz was established before chat. I think it
7
went out of existence in 1958 _
8
Do Jou XnOwv it went out of existence?
9
Jo , 1 :on' -. I don t have any idea.
1C
Do vou {ow wnat Eunction it was performing?
11 (ods in regative.)
12 You nentioned earlier that Bernard Barker worked 1
4
13 in the Cuban conmunity for the CIA ?
8
3 14 He Workea {ith these Eronts toc
13 Mas ke zerforming any intelligence function in the
16 community?
17 Intellicence Eunctions Well
12 Was ne coilecting infornation?
19 Sure I2 :e got information that he thought was 1
20 worthwhile he would ?ass it on 9
21 NOw wouic :e have been considered one of the three L
22 or 500 persons erpioyed or assigned to the Miami Station?
4
23 Yes. ie Nas a contract employee_
1
24 Ana were intelligence requirenents levied on such
0
5
25 contract enplogees?
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## "0# # @
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Normally, the requirements are pre standard,
1 2
or they ere at seat time But here again, Jou always have
1
ad hoc type things that pop up from time to time , and have to
4 be surfaced
5 Sone of these contract employees Mere, then , in
the business 0i ccilecting intelligence information in the
Cuban communities in Niami
8 Right _
NOl , 1 _hink we Einished witi the AMOTS but can
1C you think of any crner functions performea bY the AMOTS thac
1- we have not discussed in the course of the afternoon?
12 o , not -eally. H0
1
3
12 I think zou previously described then for me as tne
3
1
3 14 eyes and ears into the Cuban communi
12 Right
12 Ana they actually had a physical Eacility in Miami
17 Which was their headquarters , did -they not?
12 A Exactly
19 nd there vas a CIA Case Officer Who managed to super-
1
U
2C vise that facilitz.
j
21 Yes_ 1
22 NOw whac has nappened to -the AMOTS?
4
23 The AMOTS Iere
sradually phased down and will go
J
24 out of existence M ae che ANOTS are out of existence
8
aren't
25 they? Isn't it 2ie AMDUKES or these are the radio people
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abh 3
1
And the AMDUKES are the ANOTS?
3 2
Tle ADUKES are AMOTS but thez are radio people _
3
Fhey are the ones that conducted the intercept
4
for VSA?
5
Yes. Zte cnly reason we use two different names
6
is that in each cf -hese things in those cays we had to have
7
a project 'hicr nad to be renewed every Zear to get the
8
funding _
9
So ANDUKE and AMOT
1C
Synonynous
11
r A are crzptonyms?
12
1 Yes
2
4
l2
Do the initials stand for anything other than
:
5
; 14
Mo Jusz 2ick ihen out. If You want to encrypt
15
sorebody You just call downstairs and give you a
16
crypt . You con t nave anything to do witn it. The AM happenec
17 atwthat particuler time to be the Cuban diograph .
12
Now , turning to the Miami Station involvement for
19 assistance to the Secret Service in connection with the
20 political conventions in 1968 and 1972, would you briefly
21 describe for -e the nature of the assistance provided by
22 the Agency Lo the Secret Service?
23
At the raquest of the Secret Service we conducted
24
name traces 3n individuals Ihon the Secret Service wanted
25 traced_ These iccluiedthe employees of 2l1 hotels in Miami
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OECEI 100
ch 6
1
Beach where any convention activities were to take place,
3
8 2
employees of catering services , linosine service, employees
1
5
in C E what do they call it. the Civic Center in Miami It
L
auditorium down there I Eorget what they call it.
i5 a
5
Foreign news people and nedia, television , radio people _
6
Nere these people on whon name traces were requested
all foreign nationals?
8
Al1 Eoreign nationals
9
Was there any check made to deternine whether
1C
any of them Were American citizens?
11
4 Ne levied on the Secret Service as a
requirement
12
that they have identified these people by nationality before
1
4 13
we Ivould run a nane trace Inadvertently , at one tine
8
3 14
they cid submit a list, 4 rather long list of American citizenf
15 whicn Ie promptly sent pack to ther and told them we could
16 not trace.
17 And this practice was followed both in 1968 and
12 1972?
19 That is right.
1
U
20 Ana where were these names traced?
5
21 They were traced back here and also in Miami The 1
} 22 Miami Station did their name check and we did our name check
1
23 In the case Of Cubans probably the Miani Station haa
here. 1
24 information on the Cubans than we would have back here
: more
8
25 3ut the names wvere traced through Agency files?
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Through Agency files_
2 Nas Secret Service receiving cooperation from FBI 3
3
3 3 on this as well?
4 A Oh , yes
5 And in effect, they were getting an all-Agency nane
6 check
7
Right
8 on people who might Fose a security threat
9
Yes
to 3 candidate?
10
Nell, they were just trzing to cetermine who night
11
be a security threat .
12
{
That is right Potential threat
0
13
2
1
Ves
: 14
For what political parties C et strike that_
15
In 1968 was this service provided for both political
16
conventions?
17
Both political conventions_
18
Mere they both held in Miami that Year?
19
1
Vo I guess it was in 1972 they Were both held
J
20
&
there. I think it was just, the Democratic in 1968 _
21 1
These requests did come from the Secret Service
22
4
rather than
23
J1
From the Secret Service and it Tas the Director
24
of the Secret Service came to the DCI and asked hin for
25
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1
1
support_
1 2
1 Do You still maintain the records with
3 respect 20
that tracing activity?
4
1 have 2ll the names that have been
5 traced_
And are on little cards down in 6 your files?
Yes .
7
have those records been maintained?
8 Is there
any reason those records nave been naintained?
9
Nell because we were told to maintain
10
them when
tte Matergate thing
broke
11
I See_
12
1
And since then nobody will destroy anything_
4 13
8 OK . You aware of any picketing at various
8 14
2laces in the country that has been conduc ted by Cuban
15
sroups?
16
I Was not aware of it until I was told of it.
17
I still don t know Tvhether this was a spontaneous action on
18
the part of these people or whether were instructed to
19 1 ao it. I tried to run that cown and I have been unable to
20 i
At what locations nas it been reported that pickets
21
1
were located?
22
5
Airline Offices in New York , Miani I think another
23
J place . 1 forget where it was
24
0
Nave You in Eact been able to verify that
7
these
25
persons were Cubans?
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hey
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060064
1
Well, it is a matter of record in the AMOT history
{ 2
Lhat this indeed did take ?lace HOw what I have been trying
1
3
to determine is whether the On-Site Case Officer authorized
4 this,Whicr I fully doubt _
5
who was the On-Site Case Officer?_
6
At that tine it *a5 a fellow by the name of Tony
Sforza
8
Is he still alive?
9 'es , he is Gown in Miami_ But I just do not know
10 whether this was a unilateral action on the part of che
11 ANOTS against the countries that were then trading with
12 Cuba notably Spain ana Creat Britain and France.
1
4
13 Other than this incident which 1e L Mt strike that_
3
2 14 Nhat kind of an investigation nave You conductea ?
15 I have taiked to people, which is really all you
16 can ao There is no other Xay You can do it.
17 You have been unable ta determine who , if anyone ,
18 authorized this activity? #ave you been able to identify
19 any of the persons who participated in the picketing?
1
u 20 No
0
21 With what frequency did this activity occur? L
2 22 I don t have any :dea_ I only know of one instance
t 23 This was in New gork City?
8
5
: 24 New Ycrk City and `Miani
1
2
25 Do you know 0f any organized political activity that
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1
the ANOTS engaged in?
8 2
To my knowleage , they didn t engage in any
1
3
Any political activity.
4
Do you know of any other activities that they have
5
conducted within this country , they or any of their nenbers
6
have conducted withi? this country that we have not already
7
discussed this afternoon?
8
No .
9 Any colitical activities? Any operations?
10
No . Not really. Jf course we have used certain
11
select individuals to what we call hand-hold defectors Cuban
12
defectors _ In other words live with then until they are 1
0
13 resettled anc this type of thing_ And this is another activit
2
3 14 they engaged in. But other than that, I can't think of any-
15 thing else
16 Do you jnow Of any criminal activities that have
17 been attribited to
18 4 I have heard o1 some allegations which have never
19 been froven_ 1
20 Nhat are the allegations? 5
21 The allegations concern break-ins and surveillances 1
<
22 and this type of thing _
4
23 Have those allegations been made with any fre-
J
24 quency?
25 Vell I forget who it was. It was during the
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105
1
Natergate' trial Sone cf these allegations that came out
8 2
and I think they were carried in the Anderson colunn but we 1
5
made file checks and this type of thing _ One particular L
4 activity was supposed to nave been carried out in Rockefeller
5 Center in New York and i2 turns out it was taken out of
6 context. It was 1 training Jission
and ~
training exercise,
7 These guys were being trained in surveillance in New York
8 and were simply asked to go into a branch of the Manhaztz]
9 Chase Alanhattan and :3 come back out and then they were
10 supposed to diagram he Leyout of the bank And this to sonie
11 of shem meant casing the ianr when in fact it was just 2
12 nemory exercise 1
4 13 With what Erequency were those kinds of trainicg
1
} 14 exercises conduczed?
15 Well xhenever -here Ias an whenever it was 4elf
16 that these people , selected individuals , were to be trained
17 in trade craft_
12 And did cheir sege craft training include such
n
19 things 25 surveillance?
8
20 Sure 9
21 Ana oreak-ins?
L
22 No Not creak-ins Nor surreptitious entry. As I
4
6
23 said- in the case 0f Lhis Farticular it was misinter-
{
: 24 preted as casing the han;; Zhese exercises were given
3
25 coula have walked Jnto {cir office, your outer office and
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ih 12
106
7
said the instructor could have said two hours later tell
8 2
De what is in that outer office? Mhat is the layout of it?
1
3
This is just for observation.
1
4
You stated earlier none of those allegations have
5
peen proven_ Have any of then been proved to your
6 satisfacticn?
7
No Ithick we disproved them to my satisfaction
8
I take it You Zo not believe they took place other
9
Lhan the training exercise?
10 Oh , no . Jo I aon t believe they did_
11
Do you know of any instances where menbers of that
12
group have broken in, nade any other type of illegal entry
;
0
13
in this country?
1
14 No _
15 Have you ever been present at any discussions of
16 the legality or illegality of naintaining stations like the
17 !iami Station within this countrz?
18 Legality? No
19 HOw aboue the propriety?
2
20 ell to ry
knowledge , that really never came up 8
21 Vo one to iv knowvledge , has ever questioned the legality or 1
22 the propriety of having the Station
44
4 23 There have been some allegations in the press and
1
24 elsewhere about possible Gisuse of Cuban exiles
0
rembers of
9 25 that communi the CIA Are vou aware of those?
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OelZEI 107
3h 13
1
1
Jo
8 2
Ne received some correspondence and I have seen some
1
5
articles thzt suggest that che Cuban comnunity is sort of
4
3 resource that is occasionalli tapped by che CIA for various
5
operations in this country
6
You nean chis country?
Yes. Picketing was one exanple There were also some
other examples of unusual activities_ Do You nave any knowledge
of Ese by the CIA of Cuban nationals or exiles for any type
1C
of operation Within this country?
11
io .
12 Do You know whether or not the Agency has provided
1
4 13
any financial support for Cuban businessmen in: this countrz?
1
3
14
No - Not ~0 ny knowledge -
15 Other than the naintenance of cover?
16
Jo
17 Zstablisnment of businesses?
18 No _
0
19 No?
1
20 Vo _ 3
21 I7 the course 0f our discussions today Te discussed L
22 the: AMOTS _ the AMDUKES various political front groups
W
M 23 revolutionary front groups Are there any other emigre ,
1
57 24 Cuban enigre sroups in the Miami area which have' been supportea
3
25
by the Agencv , eitier financially or otherwise?
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050# 40## 0
108
7
1 Not to ny knowledce .
2 Are Jou familiar with the appendix that was attached 1
1
3 to Mr . Colby?s statement?
4 Yes . 4
5 Did you have sone role in drafting that?
6 You mean the Miami Station thing?
7 Appendix J, entitlea , "Fhe Miami Station
8 Yes
9 You wrote it?
Yes_ 10
It has a familiar ring about it. There are references
11
12 to indigenous organizations emigre organizations Are
5
3 there any others other than the ones we have been discussing?
0
13
8
{ 14
Not to ny know ledge _ Jhere: are, you know 12 %ou
wart; to call: it an organization, we did, gou know_ subsidize
15
che iellvout of Juanita Castro
16
Yes, I am faniliar with that.
17
Iou are familiar with 2ll that and that is the
18
Soara now , too
19
1
She was; doing
0
20
6
Fropaganda
21 |
propaganda broadcasts
22
4
41
Yes
23
1
Do Tou have any personal knowledge of what kind of
: 24
8
intelligence-gathering activities are conducted in the Aiami
25
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erea ~now bY the Miami Staticn? 3
8 2
There are no donestic activities at all in the
1
3
Miami Station All Cuban ac-ivities have been moved back
L
4
here to Headquarters The ~iami Station now is completely
5
and solelq involved in the intelligence in the Caribbean _
6
Does the 4iami Stacion L I your pardon
does the Headquarters compczent that now handles the Cuban
8
situation in Miami run any agents in the Cuban community?
9
No _ Well_ let 7e explain that to You _ We do have
10
a career agent Iho has beer ~ith US for 2 good many Years
11
in Niami and we Go use nir 30 contact relatives of Cubans
3
12 who are still in Cuba 1 zean , relatives who are in the U.S
(
0
13 ~ho have relatives in Cuba-
8
3 14 Now , this is done zrincipally With the idea of 3
15 recritnent target, deternize weaknesses or strengths chis
16 type of thing ile does cor-act these people all over the
17 United States If we come ecross an individual that looks like
18 he night be recruitable Or ?erhaps we could even double hin,
19
de Bill, Jfter Ie make our zreliminary assessment, and we 1
i 20 Find out where relatives anz these types of people are, We
21 will i5k this career agent cr instruct him to go contact
L
22 these people , be it Nel Yor} Vew Jersey, Chicago , or hat-
W
vi 23"
ever 1
1 24 So You use Cuban ~OW citizens or aliens in this
8
25 counery , a5 access agens Photocopy from
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1+U BECrEI
Sh 16
7
1 Right_
8 2
Just like foreign associates would do
1
3 Ezactly.
L
4 Are there any aore people like Bernard Barker who
5
2re contract employees of che Agency who still work in the
6 Jiami-Cuban conmunitz?
7
:o . Mone
8
That entire apparatus nas been
9 ias been dismantled.
10 dismantled. Nhat is the current size of the
11 Hiami Station?
12 I really :on t know but it runs between 11 and 14, 1
0
13
a5 far 2s I know . 1 2hink 12 will be 11 by che next fiscal
8
4
3 14 {ezr.
15 MRa MANFREDI : Off the record:
16 (Discussion off che record.)
17 MR.MANFREDI : Let' 5 gc back on the record
18 BY MR MANFREDI:
19 There are presently no Cuban Ops being conducted out 1
20 of `iami? s
21 Lio All Cuban Ops _ are being conducted out of
L
22 #eadquarters
4
v 23 And even Erom the Feadquarters location there are 1
: 24 no paramilitary operations?
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25 4o Gerald Ford Library
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1
1
No covert 5 well there is sone propaganda activity
8 2
being conducted still?
1
3
On a very small scale, and the covert action facilit: L
4
that we had _ the radio , taped program
F
is being terninated
5
30 June So for all practical purposes it is terninated
6
now .
7
The Miami Station is under official cover.
8
Yes.
9
And it has seen cecreased to how many people?
16
Between 11 ana 14 _
11
And it has absolutely no responsibilities with
12
1 respect to Cuba?
0 13
Absolutely none 1
3 14
Ana its responsibilities are entirely directed to
15
other Latin American countries?
16
To Caribbean countries
17
Caribbean countries_ And I trust that there are
18
other Agency stations in che Caribbean?
19
Yes 1
20 5 Well, I nave no further questions Mr. Sturbitts_
21
L
If YOU have anything You would like to add you are welcone
22
to do 50 .
aj
5
23
8 No , I have nothing.
5
: 24
I want to thank fOU on behalf of myself and the
2 25
Cormission for gour cooperation
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: 18
StCREI
1
Sure
{
8 2
I am sorr] we had to take so much of your time
1
5
That is all right.
L
4 Phank Jou again_
5 (Whereupon at 3:35 0 ' clock P.m., the taking of the
6 deposition was
concluced .)
3
9
10
11
12
1
3
13
1
:
14
15
16
17
13
19
1
20
8
21 L
22
W
5 23
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24
:
8 25
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