Transcript of 157-10014-10125.pdf

================================================== Page 1 ================================================== 157-10014-10125] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F_ KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 JFK Assassmation System Date: 77772015 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY SSCIA RECORD NUMBER 157-10014-10125 RECORD SERIES MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE AGENCY FILE NUMER 07-M-3] Document Information ORIGNNATOR : SSCIA FROM: TO TITLE : DATE : 03/10/1976 PAGES 78 SUBJECTS SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY COMMITTEE BUSINESS DOCUMENT TYPE TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION Declassified RESTRICTIONS IB; 1C CURRENT STATUS Redact DATE OF LAST REVEW 03/22/2000 OPENING CRITERIA COMMNTS : CCBOX 324 v9.1 HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 1 ================================================== Page 2 ================================================== Date 08 / 07 /95 Page 1 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY SSCIA RECORD NUMBER 157-10014-10125 RECORDS SERIES MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMITTTEE AGENCY FILE NUMBER 07-M-31 3 t @ DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR SSCIA FROM TO TITLE DATE 03/10/76 PAGES 78 SUBJECTS sSCSGO , METHODOLOGY COMMITTEE BUSINESS DOCUMENT TYPE TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET RESTRICTIONS REFERRED CURRENT STATUS POSTPONED IN FULL DATE OF LAST REVIEW 01/05/99 OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS CCBOX 324 [R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 2 ================================================== Page 3 ================================================== NATIONAL ?'SECURTTY- INEORMNZOV ToP Unauthorized: Disclosure: Subjecg Vol:: 2 OE 3; to; Crininal Sanctions_ R3229 @ljr- Iutitrpe StatcE Srnate Report: of Proceedinga Hearing? held belore Senate: Select Comnittee to: Study Governmental Operations: With: Respect:: to Intelligence Activities Wednesdayn: Marchi 103 19576 Washington; D:_ (Stenotype: and Waste- turned Cer to;the: Comittee ' for: deatruction) WARD & PAUL 410: FIRST STREET;83E WASHINGTON; D C: 20003 (202) 544-6000 TOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 3 SECRET Tepe ================================================== Page 4 ================================================== WARD/ smnl Tc P SECRET 1 FOREIGN AND MILITARY SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING 2: 3 Wednesday , March 10 , 1976 4 5 United States Senate 6 Select Committee to Study Governnental 7 Operations with Respect to 8 Intelligence Activities, 9 Washington , Da C_ 10 The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2.45 0 'clock 11 P.M . , in Room S-407 , the' Capitol 0 the Honorable Walter De 12 Huddleston presiding . 13 Present: Senators Huddleston (presiding) , Hart of 14 Colorado and Mathias . 15' Staff: William G . Miller_ 0 Staff Director, and David 16 Aaron 0 Joseph diGenova , Lynn Davis 0 William Bader , Elizabeth 17 Culbreath Charles ,Kirbow Rick Inderfurth 0 Pat Shea # Elliot 18 Maxwell and Al Quanbeck _ 0 Professional Staff Members , 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Tea d CpeDpt HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 4 ================================================== Page 5 ================================================== TC P SECRET And then the question is whether or not there is a prohi-: 2. bition on printing in the English language . 3 Mr Bader And as I heard the consensus this morning = 8 4 we would not move to that recommendation for a prohibition. 5 I did_not hear whether on the distribution this would be by law , though I took it it wag to be by law, though I can be correctea on that. I don't think we addressed that this morning Mr Kirbow Mr _ Chairman, on these that we considered to be rather 00 that we have a fairly light record on or that We are not too sure what the future holds , one of the members 10 that I rode over with on the car suggested that perhaps in those 11 instances we coula recommend fairly strongly whatever We want 12 the followon people to do to ensure that the reconmendation 13 does not create havoc within the Agency or does not leave the 14 rights of citizens unprotected _ 15 But that is not a cop' out. It is sone thing that you 16 frequently do 0 say , let us reserve this for the permanent 17 oversight committee or for whatever Other group . We may have 18 all the information we neea 19 Senator Huddleston Let then make the determination whether 20 or not it-Bhould be a statute. 21 Mr Kirbow Determine whether in the law whether it is 22 working all right under the set of regulations _ 23 Mr' Bader Mr _ Chairman 0 'may I say in this instance in 24 the publishing trade there is no lack of record? The evidence 25 T 0 CreDfT H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 5 ================================================== Page 6 ================================================== TCP SECRET 1 2 Ble € E E @ [ N G 8 2 Senator Huddleston I call the Committee to order 3 Mr Aaron _ I believe Bill Bader had the temerity: to 4 sumarize where we stand 5 Mr _ Bader _ Mr Chairman, where I think we are at the monent is, taking the three major issues before the Subcommittee in the order were presented 0 and discugsed this morning 0 the first being the academic issue 0 and a3 I heard the Subcom- mittee this morning , then I will have another go at the 10 options # give enough optiong in the option paper and bring- it 11 back before the Committee for a further look before we go Qn 12 Senator Huddleston By Friday . 13 Mr . Bader By Friday, without question 14 I think by this tine we will all have 8 we will try to 15 include a positive. optien, that i8 to.say , to-approve if not 16 applaud . the .expanded efforts .of FRD to . undertake these activi- 17 tles, Or at least to, endorse them 18 NOw , going to the second was the covert use of books and 19 publishing houses We discussed two recommendations : one which 20 I believe here the Committee has agreea to , and that is a 21 prohibition on the distribution or subsidy of any books 22 magazines or other publications not attributed' to the CIA in- 23 side the United States 24 Senator Huddleston I think we can all accept that, can 't 25 we HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page: 6 they ================================================== Page 7 ================================================== p SECRET and inquiry into i6 hag been thorough , and I think we know this 2 well There is no dispute from the Agency . 3 Senator Huddleston Weil, is the law incongistent with the statute 'on- the information service? 5 Mr Bader It is the sane .thing _ I would reconmend 0 6 Mr Chairman e 8 that this: woula be by law, by statute. 7 Senator Huddleston On the publication . 8 Mr Bader On the publicationa 9 Senator Mathias . woula support that 10 Senator Huddleston I think Gary Hart would also , S0 I 11 think we will make that recommendation, that this one on the 12 academics is the one we are not sure of . 13 Mr Bader That-8 the one we would go forward with , and 14 now we are moving to I woula al8o reiterate that in our 15 session the other night I took it a8 agreement that the 16 recommendation by statute the CIA should be prohibited from 17 making operational ube of all educational and cultural 18 grantees of all U,S Government sponsorea programs , this was the 19 issue " which was raised Of government funded programs such as 20 the Fulbrigbt program 21 Senator Huddleston And that' : either already a regulation 22 Or a directive or something to that effecta 23 Mr _ Aaron . Certain categories. 24 Mr _ Bader Certain categories 25 Mr Kirbow . That is brand new ground Tem cpeDft H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 7 ================================================== Page 8 ================================================== TOP SECRET 5 1 diGenova The John McCloy exceptions to that rule, they 2 are the only Ones that are protected_ 3 Mr Aaron That justifies Charles view that there are some similarities between Ford Foundation and , Government 5 sponsored activities. 6 Mr Bader . Where our discussion was left before lunch was on the question of the covert use of U.'S. journalists and media institutions 0 and as it was laid out, it was indicated 9 that the CIA S intended internal prohibition on the use of the 10 media extended to the internal prohibitions On the use, Opera? 11 tional uge Of individuals , American and foreign , who were 12 accredited to American media: organizations 13 Ag I heard it this morning, what We were digcussing and 14 moving to was to extena that prohibition to cover all American 15 individuals' and media organizations , and that the question then 16 wag whether this would be recommended to be something done in 17 law or a recommendation, Or an insistence, if you will, to the 18 Agency that it further amena its internal directives, its 19 50-10 , to put all media personnel # American media personnel on 20 the prohibited list, and that i3 I think where we were 21 Senator Huddleston. I think that' s an accurate statement. 22 That 8 where we were 23. I had expressed a thought that I thought that it ought to 24 be expanded to include all 0 but we should hola off on the 25 statute business for the time being. HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 8 M ================================================== Page 9 ================================================== TO)P SECRET 1 Senator Mathias. My role here seems to be the Devil'$ 2 advocate _ 3 Senator Huddleston_ Good Senator Mathias. There is no question about the writing 5 American press or the value in print domestically . Maybe the role, any legitimate role that news men could, journalists, writers could fulfill is available. through the information agencies, USIA and groups of that sort. So does anybody know whether there is any real need 10 for allowing some latitude, which is not covered situations 11 that can be envisioned under USIA or- other programs? 12 Mr Kirbow Well , Senator 0 the one that I discussed earlier 13 that I probably didn t make my point well because no one 14 seemed to have picked it uP, is we do ; by the words here , if I 15 understand Mr Bader prohibit an American citizen living in 16 Brussels and working for a local newspaper there from having 17 anything to do with the CIA 18 Senator Huddleston No we don t, do we? 19 You mean his extension? 20 Mr Kirbow Yes , sir 21 Senator Huddleston But not by 22 Mr . Kirbow. But wasn'+ that; what you wanted to put in 23 the law , that you didn t know if you wanted 24 Senator Mathias This is the point I wanted to raise 25 here _ 7e5 cpapFT HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 9 by ~by ================================================== Page 10 ================================================== TK)P SECRET Mr . Kirbow_ That kind of relationship is something that 2 W0 should away from because I don 0 t see any harm in it, 3 nor do I think the record demonstrates any harm in it. I don 't see #rr Rr# I don t know how in the worla this person doing that taints the-minds of the American reading public, which i apparently what you are trying ## you re not trying to-protect the newsman You are trying to protect the reader who doesn t know that what he S getting is being spoonfed to him from the CIA_ 0 and I don 't know we would be 30 concerned about 10 protecting newsmen from working, or prohibiting them fron 11 working, because I think they have a right to do that a3 12 American citizens , just as they do to work with the Department 13 of Defense or any other agency 14 Mr _ Bader You would then rescind the Agency 8 standing 15 prohibition? 16 Mr Kirbow I just don t think you ever prohibit it in 17 law 18 Mr diGenova Are you talking bout an affiliated_ 0 19 accredited journalist, because that 5 what the Agency regulation 20 deals with. It doesn t deal with an American citizen . It 21 deals with an accredited person , whether he is a foreign 22 national or an American 23 Mr_ Bader To an American media organization. 24 Mr diGenova But that S not the example Charles gave 25 you Tam ceeDtt HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 10, stay 'why ================================================== Page 11 ================================================== TOP SECRET 1_ Mr _ Kirbow _ Well perhaps I misunderstand the extension 2 that you , your full recommendation 3 Do you want to go beyond where the administration is in 4 their position? 5 Mr Bader . I am recommending to go beyona where the Administration is at this stage, to extend the operational prohibition on hthe part of CIA to use American 5 #rr Americans in the media Mr Kirbow Wherever locatea 9 Mr _ Bader Where they are ubing them undercover , at this 10 stage, to the extent that it i8 a Cover propobition 11 Senator Huddleston . Even if they are in foreign media? 12 Mr_ Bader . Yes,. sir. 13 Senator Huddleston And even though all of their 14 activities are related to foreign; they are not writing for 15 American news gervices 16 Mra Bader Alternately;' they could be with American 17 media organizations 18 Mr Kirbow_ Mr Chairman, I don t think there is a single 19 shred of evidence on our record that that i8 in any way wrong- 20 doing or in any way' adversely affects the rights of American 21 citizens Clearly it will prohibit or could prohibit in the 22 future the proper use of an individual that could be essential 23 to the intelligence collection processes f the CIA , and it 24 singles out a specific agency- which is not doing any harm to- 25 N# 50955 Docld.32423513 Page 11 ================================================== Page 12 ================================================== Tap SECRET the American citizenry , and says no, you cannot do this because 2 you happen to be_ a secret organization. 3 Senator Mathias. If I wanted to. do Charlie, I think I could work out a schene I would hire a prominent American columnist to go ana live in Paris, as Art Buchwala did # for example. Mr Kirbow_ And to pick off his colunns ana run then in the New York Times 9 Senator Mathias_ And run them in the Paris Trib first: 10 and then let the domestic" press pick hin up . 11 Mr Kirbow. But if he ' 9 in the Paris Trib, that 8 ar 12 affiliated U.S . 13 Mr Aaron . Well, suppose he writes for the Financial 14 Times? 15 Senator Mathias We1l 0 you coula work out an echo program 16 if. you wanted 17 Senator Hudaleston Well, the basic point:; ingtead 18 of picking instances 0 it seems to ' me, is whether or not 28 an 19 official policy of the United States Government we want an 20 institution such a3 the press with all it means and all it is 21 supposea to be in American with its constitutional provisions and 22 whatever 0 to be subverted to the secret, clandestine operation 23 that it can; Anytime we put any prohibition anywhere , We are 24 eliminating . somebody a3 a potential agent _ You can t use 25 that 23 a guideline. 4 05 HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 12 it, ================================================== Page 13 ================================================== TC)P SECRET 10 1 Mr . Kirbow_ These People are not necessarily subverted _ 2 Senator Huddleston I'm talking about the institution of 3 the free press being subverted 0 not the individual 4 Mr . Kirbow _ I 11 extend that one further_ I don' € see how using, them for cover which ha8 _ no direct effect, like the 6 example I guess You gave Senator, of a vice president of a bureau of bone sort who hag nothing to do. with the' writing Or editing or anything; he is the business head of the operation 9 just like any other corporation This thing extends to that . 10 Senator Huddleston . He may have something do with the 11 selection of the people who do write 12 Mr Kirbow. Well, Lf you could give us an abuse that we 13 are trying to correct, Or some reabon for it? Mr Bader It $ not a question of abuse , it' $ a guestion 14 15 of the use;, the operational use of an institution such as_ 16 the press for operational purposes . 17 Mr Kirbow Well,. explain then , and perhaps I'm going 18 explain the sanctity of_ the press if it i8 not to protect an 19 uninformed reader from having his mind tainted by the relation- 20 ship. What is the sanctity of the press 88 an organization? It i8 not sanctity like the church and state. I just don 21 22 gee the recora for this_ Senator Huddleston Well , the clergy and the pregs I think 23 are institutions 24 Mr Kirbow_ Well, I think the: clergy and maybe the 25 7en y ceeDe? H 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 13 ================================================== Page 14 ================================================== Tebp secrit 11 academic , like you say , that teaches the student directly, 2 but a businessman who happeng to have elected going into the business of running a newbpaper Or a magazine 0 to be singled out and say you as a patriotic American are proscribed against 5 doing any business , and if You are going to do it with an agency] you should do it with the whole United States_ Covernment . I don see how we can single out the CIA and not single out military Or FBI . 9 Mr Aaron Well, I think the domestic group will have 10 may well have- some ; recommendations regarding the FBI 8 covert 11 use of American media 12 Mr & Kirbow Well $ domestic media 0 obviously. 13 Mr Aaron I would like to say , to take Charles' 14 example of an American working for a foreign press , and what 15 the problem is. I think the problem: is that you have two 16 kinds of problems with the press, One is. the fact, if it i8 17 operating domestically, if it i9. working for American media 18 institutions , it is clear that they are subject Co Some 19 manipulation or at_ least questionable manipulation, and there 20 are issue8 in people' 9 minds a3 to its integrity. 21 Now , the question goes beyond that to what about people 22 who might be working for some foreign # American journalists , 23 American writers or what have you, working for foreign media 24 institutions There you have a somewhat more: extended 25. situation. But it seems to Me that What you have is the TOD crpDf H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 14 ================================================== Page 15 ================================================== TLp SECRET 12 possibility of the American press getting discredited 0 having 2 problems of being able to' perform its normal functions in the worla and performing in the United States because it is part 4 of a clandeetine intelligence organization 5 Mr Kirbow Don t you think that' $ an individual right that a person has the right to exercise both ways , instead of one way? Mr Aaron Charles , what I think I have told the Committee, I have a real problem with the concept of the 10 American people having the . right to spY , somehow , and these 11 prohibitions don t go to ,what people are allowed to do on 12 the outseta They go to What the Government is allowed to do 13 Mr _ Maxwell _ Well, let' 5 take a different kind of 14 example. 15 What would happen if in some way and it' s,not, I think, 16 impossible to imagine an American citizen was writing full 17 time for the Communist Party paper in Italy Or Portugal or 18 France . 19 Now that obviously would be covered' by the example that 20 Bill has provided as a prohibition. 21 There are two questions_ One is whether the person has 22 any real operational use that you want to preserve_ 0 and second , 23 whether it goes to the question that David presents 0 which is 24 the possible contamination of the American press,. which seems 25 a difficult extension in that example_ 0 as well as the possibilit To cepDfT H 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 15 ================================================== Page 16 ================================================== TVP SECRET 13 1 of distortion 0 the flowback problem in America . 2 And the second problem seems to be, with an' example like 3 that, is that it seems to there: is, very little stock in the 4 argument , because the argument about distortion of what goes on in foreign countries and people S perceptions is at the heart of the question of whether the CIA or any government agency should be engaged in- propaganda because it is quite possible the' propaganda gets picked up in the same way and the question is obviously of line drawing: how do you want to draw the 10 line. 11 It strikes me that there may be better ways to draw te 12 line than the suggested prohibition that Bill has for any 13 Anerican , regardless of status, or who write for or what 14 they are doing. 15 Mr Kirbow By having citizenship a3 an American 16 Mr Bader Well 8 you misunderstood me I was putting out 17 the . various posgibilities 18 Let 8 turn to the text for just a moment and maybe that 19 will help. 20 First turn to 61 _ Lets try to get some idea of what the 21 probiem is before we get to the semantics .of it. All right, 22 just let Me go through this , then we 11 see what is actually_ 23 being recommended here. 24 I have confused you obviously , by giving a series of 25 possibilities ; not what the recommendations are H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 16 they ================================================== Page 17 ================================================== 14 TC)P SECRET 1` "Ten U.S, news organizations and five U.S _ publishing 2 houses provide cover for CIA agents abroad . Four of the 3 organizations do not know that, they provide this cover 0 " 4 Then there are some examples _ 5 Mr Kirbaw Meaning management: or individual? 6 Mr . Bader Management . 7 Mr Kirbow At any level _ 8 Mr _ Bader At any level 9 Mr . Kirbow. All right 10 Mr , Bader . Then there are bome examples of the kinds of 11 relationships that the CIA officer engages in: intelligenc 12 collection under cover a3 a roving international news corres- 13 pondent , a CIA officer under cover a3 a European representative 14 of an American company While working a8 a stringer for a 15 United States publication engages in intelligence collection 16 and covert action . In this case the company i8 aware of the 17 CIA relationship while the publication is not . Bona fide 18 journalists who regularly provide the CIA with intelligence, 19 Ene are paid regularly while others are not In one case 20' the journalist is apparently not aware that the U.S :. embassy' 21 official to whon he is providing information ig actually a 22 CIA officer 23 , Now , what the recommendation here on 64 , or the bracketed 24 recommendations 4 and VI m sorry I created this situation 25 by giving- various options by statute the CIA should be Tod cfedeT M# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 17 ================================================== Page 18 ================================================== TOP SeCRET 15 prohibited from using American media organizations for 2 cover . That ig the extert of ita 3 What is the trouble Joe? 4 Mr . diGenova That seemg to be somewhat that Seems 5 to. be a back-off from what the Agency prohibits a3, well_ I mean do you want to make a recommendation saying that the Agency" 8 prohibition against using Americans who are accredited Mr . Bader No . This is the additive. The recommendation here is to 10 take the Agency 8 prohibitiong which go to the question of 11 American and foreign journalists_ 0 accredited to American 12 media organizations # and extend it to what is not covered under 13 those prohibitions # which is the use of thege American media 14 organizations for cover purposes 15 Mr Maxwell Ig it clear that people who are in media 16 organizatione are not accredited to those organizations? 17 Mr. Aaron . If they were, then` they would be covered: 18 If they are accredited journalists 0 then they would not. 19 Mr = Maxwell- So the issue is whether individualg who 20 don' & write 21 Mr Aaron . But may edit. 22 Mc Maxwell But may edit. 23 Ms Culbreath. Or may type it up. 24 Mr = Aaron Or may type it UP . 25. Mr Kirbow . Well 0 is this the same point that we re w 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 18 ================================================== Page 19 ================================================== Ti)p SECRET 16 1 talking about less than 25 people, where you are going to make 2 a statutory prohibition against use of all people in that 3 Category because On pagel 61 it says ,. "of the 65 Americans employed' by the CIA in the media field, only a little over one thira are journalists; another third are CIA agents operat= under media cover , and the remaining individuals are either employed as CIA media proprietaries abroad or are propaganda writerg and consultants So we are really talking about making a major-prohibition 10 against a segment of ourk society where at the present time there 11 i8 less than 25 people who have any direct contact with ths 12 reading mind, apparently 13 Senator Hart of Colordado . I think, Charlie, it's called 14 a principle. If it was only one person, you ve still got the 15 problem _ I don t think 'it i8 the quantity. 16 Ms Davis . Bill, in your examples on 61 , the first one 17 at the bottom, would that now be covered under your prohibitiond 18' CIA officer engages in intelligence collection under cover 28 a 19 roving international news correspondent? 20 Mr Bader I can t remember from the text here whether 21 the Man is accredited or} not . 22 If he is accredited it would be covered _ 23 Ms Davis If not he is not additionally covered by your 24 prohibition 25 Senator Huddleston This does not extend to the example TaD CredeT HW 60955 Docld:32423513 Page 19 ing ================================================== Page 20 ================================================== TO)P SECRET 17 that you gave 8 Charlie. 2 Mr _ Kirbow_ No , ir} it doesn t here 3 Mr Bader . Only if ne is affiliated with that group . Mr Kirbow . His affiliation covers anybody: who is an American citizen is forever and hereafter woula be prohibited, 6 it goes into the statute from dealing _ Mr diGenova_ That 3 one of the possibilities _ 8 Mr _ Kirbow. That 8 one of those recommendations based on investigation . 10 Mr Bader . I wasn € recommending that I wab saying that 11 was one of the possibilities of the whole list. 12 Senator Huddleston But the recommendation at the top 13 of 64 doesn t cover an American citizen who is using the 14 foreign media as Cover 15 Mr . Bader This_ would not cover an American citizen who 16 i8, let 9 say , is working for Stompe , Or Le Monde, and .who is 17 not accredited and at the same time is not accredited to 18 an American media organization 19 It does not cover an American citizen who is a stringer to 20 a' Latin Anerican newspaper unless he is accredited to an Americdn 21 media ' organization _ 22 Mr Kirbow, Let me try one more time , then; to state the 23 position of not Senator Tower in this case, but another Senator 24 28 I indicated ; spoke to me on this very subject,and indicate 25 to you that we not do to harm Or to prevent the use by the HF 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 20 Only ================================================== Page 21 ================================================== TC)P SECRET 19 agency of certain people unles8 in some way that use affects 2 the rights and/or in some vague way affects the mental processes 3 to the detriment of the American citizenry = 0 that we don € 4 concern ourselves with passing laws to protect the Person who 5 reads sone thing that thege people do. If you do: this, you open that can of worms which gets you into a prohibition against any work in the press Or elsewhere in a propaganda fashion Now the Committee may decide that propaganda is in fact some thing that we should prohibit by law 8 but doing this 10 piecemeal like this , it does just exactly that . I See nothing 11 in our record that indicates that the use of certain of thege 12_ people overseas or for cover in any way 01 0 there is not 13 any evidence that it -hag.adversely affected the rights of the 14 citizens of the United States . There is; a potential for 15 abuse in' practically anything secret and covert. 16 Senator Huddleston . I don t believe the recommendation 17 at the top of page 64 violates what you have just said 18 Mr . Maxwell I would not think that 19 Mr . Kirbowa Well, it say8 , Mr Chairman # that by statute, 20 by statute, which means by law the CIA should be prohibited' 21 from uging American,media organizations for cover We apparently 22 have 65 people, a portion of which are being used for cover 0 23 and apparently they consider them to be an essential asset , or 24 they wouldn t be using then 25 Is that correct, Mr , Bader? 7ea 5 efepFe MY 60955 DocId:32423513 Page 21 ================================================== Page 22 ================================================== TOP SECRET 19 1 Mr . Bader _ The CIA? 2 Mr - Kirbow Yes 3 Mr : Bader I would as8ue that they woula have extended their prohibition to this , or on the other hand one could argue 5 I 'don : know what their motives" were It could have been felt that this # the first step they took was the one that was dealing with what the public was demanding - Mr Kirbow_ Well, I really don t see anything in our record or any evidence that they have given 48 or anything 10 other than a staff position on this which we are trying to 11 sell the Committee that this is 3 harmful procedure_ 12 Senator Huddleston . What this does i8 extends: beyond 13 the practice of journalists to any other person be it an 14 executive or clerk or typist Or whatever, on the assumption 15 that you can t be a little bit pregnant If the agency is 16 going to be subverted anywhere , not the agency , if the insti- 17 tution of the press is, that it is going to be subverted 18 Mr. Bader _ Chairman , the Agency has accepted the 19 bagic principle, because it has removed from its list of 20 operational assets a rather larger nuber than this would 21 call for_ 22 Mr Kirbow , But if I hear correctly what you are saying 23 ther , we are out to- protect the American media from being. made 24 pregnant by the CIA and not worrying at- all about the reading 25 public or the other but just the media H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 22 they Mr;. ================================================== Page 23 ================================================== TAs? SECRET 20 Senator Huddleston _ The assuption is if the media of 2 the press is subverted , that it will affect the citizens_ 0 or 3 they will' suffer: 4 Senator Hart of Colorado Mr Chairman , in the interest 5 of expedition, I move the passage of these three recommendations 6 Senator Huddleston All right_ Iet' 8 see what the three are. Mr Aaron . Well, let me summarize the first one . I think we have agreed the first is that the prohibition on- distribu- 10 tion of CIA funded ; supported, subsidized and S0 forth, that 11 that be prohibited' within the United States . 12_ Mr , Inderfurth- Printed _ 13 Mr _ Kirbow_ Excuse me # Not printed_ 14 Mr . Aaron . The word 96 'printed" 'dropped out for the following 15. reason One , it makes it easier to prohibit-the distribution 16 if you don identify where the printing i8 taking' place , and 17 secondly, while there is no printing going on here , the 18 question really goes to distribution. I think that was the 19 concurrence of the Conmittee. 20 The second point i8 that the prohibitions of 0 that the 21 Agency now has upon itself 8 be made law. 22 Mr diGenova On the use of media personnel and 23 institutions? 24 Mr Aaron On the use of media personnel and institutions 25 ana the third point is that it be extended to say by statute 7e5 6F 0E67 H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 23 ================================================== Page 24 ================================================== TOp SEcRET 21 1 the CIA shoula be prohibited from uging American media organiza 2 tions for cover 5 Senator Huddleston Well , the style of this: ought to be changed _ it seems to me , because one of the recommendations , instead :of listed under recommendations , is the last paragraph 6 on is that correct? Mr Aaron Yes , that woula be picked up a3 3 recommenda - tion , that is correct.' 9 Mr . diGenova _ Plus the other one,` Which is not on 64 . 10 Mr . Aaron . Well, the one on 64 , the bottom one cones out. end la 11 Senator Huddleston _ Right . begin lb 12 Senator Mathias. Before you leave: that, a3 a matter of 13 record , I am requested to note an exception on behalf of 14 minority . 15 Mr Aaron The second section was the covert use of 16 American clergy 'and laity. This i8 on Page ' 64 _ 17 Senator Huddleston. Was that included in your motion? 18 Senator Hart of Colorado_ No . 19 Mr = Aaron . I think that covers the recommendation_ 20 Mr = Maxwell They hadn € discussed; whether: it;} 21 should be made public = 22 Senator Huddleston . Well, if lt becomes a statute, it 23 becomes public 24 Mr Inderfurth. But the statute will remain secret. 25 Mr Aaron NO , we are ready to move on it, Ito covert 4 E RfpDP? HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 24 63 , ================================================== Page 25 ================================================== TOP SECRET 22 1 use of American clergy and laity. 2 Senator Huddleston Well 0 - the covert actian,is; 5 4with_ < the notede:1 exception , those recommendations go before the Committee . 5 Senator Hart of Colorado. Just for clarification_ 8 Mac , is 6 that the entire minority or what? 7 Senator Mathias No , it' s one member . Senator Huddleston _ Now we are ready to deal with the clergy . 10 Mr . Aaron , The point here is,. I think 0 the CIA takes 11 the position that it has no covert arrangements with American: 12 clergy and laity, and that this will continue a3 policy, but 13 they have relationship of a clandestine character which don 't 14 involve remuneration . 15 Senator Huddleston Inciden_ tally, i9 that 3 new policy? 16 Mr Bader Yes , as of February 10, 1976_ 17 Mr Aaron:, It'8 pretty short- This 18 the sum total of_ 18 our findings 0 and it explains it better than I can 19 Mr _ Bader This has not been , obviously you can see 20 Senator and members of the Committee , from the text that the 21 Committee has found the CIA has; a total 0f 14 covert arrangement 22 involving direct operational use of that should be religious 23 persons , an I found it very difficult in Ithis to properly or 24 respectively address the category here _ whether they are American 25 clergy, regligious persons or whata It is a term of art I F 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 25 only 21 , . ================================================== Page 26 ================================================== TC)P SECRET 23 1 really haven t quite been able to deal witha 2 As of February 1Oth, the CIA announced that the CIA has not secret paid or contractual relationships with an American clergyman or missionary. This practice will be continued a3 a 5 matter of policy Senator Huddleston . I think we ought to clarify that religious persons That would include Chuck Colson Mr . Bader _ The issue here is,. we are saying in the first instance, we welcome this policy which they intend to put into 10 their operational prohibitions 8 and the recommendation that 11 we bringrto you is a very simple one ; in: addition: to that is 12_ that it be extended fron contractual to all operational relatior 13 ships, paid and unpaid_ 14 Senator Huddleston . By statute. 15 Mr Bader By statute. 16 Mr Inderfurth May I ask, a question here? 17 How does: this conform to Senator Hatfield's bill on.this? 18 Mr Bader . I don t know 19 Mr Inderfurth I don t know I'11 get" a copy of it, 20 but I think to the degree possible , if the committee recommends by statute a prohibition , it should be made to conform 21 22 to: that' because he has in a great deal of work on that, or 23 without knowing the facts, I might add 24 Mr Kirbow. The other thing i8 the Committee may want 25 to support legislation that i8 already pending . 7e 5 CE 07 H 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 26 put ================================================== Page 27 ================================================== TC)P Secret 24 1 Maxwell . What is the nature of the covert relationshipl 2 with religious persons now in effect? 3 Senator Mathias . A few patriotic volunteers . Mr. Bader . Patriotic volunteers at least one of then 5 from the operational records I think , too, they have what is called a memorandum of agreement which is not contractual in the gense that it involves 'paid or unpaid Mr_ Maxwell What are doing? 10 Mr Bader They collect intelligence information . 11 Mr _ Kirbow . What ig a religious Person 0 Mr . Bader a3- they 12 u3e it or as you use it here? 13 Woula that mean the organ player that is a oivilian who 14 travels with a preacher and plays the organ? 15 Mr _ Bader No , It i9 intended to be the American clergy 16 although I certainly: woula lean on whoever can' tell me what a 17 proper term is to define American clergy . 18 Senator Mathias . What about this. fellow around, Maharaja 19 Rani? 20 Senator' Huddleston. I'11 think on your defintion_ 21 Mr. Bader I think we 11 have to have a footnote as to 22 what American clergy may be 23 Mr diGenova American clergy or missionaries , certainly. 24 Senator Huddleston Well , missionary gets a little 25 fuzzy _ 3 0 6a CpepE# HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 27 Mr - they ================================================== Page 28 ================================================== To)P SECRET 25 Mr. Bader The Agency uses 16 American clergy or missionary . Senator Huddleston It has to be a perbon whose primary 3 occupation i8 for 8 religious order or sect or something 0 it 4 seems to me . 5 Mr . Kirbow. How about the Mormon youth who do their things overseas? Would: this take care of them ana prevent them from getting gobbled up? Senator Huddleston _ I think that' s a good question_ 10 receive no pay 11 Mr . Kirbow. are not church people; per se It 18 12 part of their religion 0 doing the service You see, this gets 13 tobe a rather broad extension, or you leave out certain 14 things if you are not careful with your definition:: 15 Senator Huddleston I think there may be somewhere in our 16 litany a definition 0 I am not sure 17 Mr Inderfurth I would imagine that Senator Hatfield' 9 18 bill, a definition of what clergy that would be spelled out. 19 There are copies coming over now 20 Mr Bader Well , I think maybe we will get 2 copy of the 21 definition of clergy or missionary _ Maybe that will clear 22 that UP . 23 Senator Huddleston Well, I think you know some 24 churches send people over for a very short period of time They 25 are people, really, but while they are there, they are 7e 5 EE 9e" HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page, 28 2 They They lay ================================================== Page 29 ================================================== TV)P SECRET 26 there more or less under the auspices of the church group . 2 Mr Kirbow . At least a local church frequently spongored 3 then . 4 Senator Huddleston_ I don € think you can prohibit 2ll 5 those kinds of people. I think sone kind of" definition should include the primary occupation of clergy. clergy itself . Senator Mathias Well 0 don t:we commit to staff for the moment_ the question of definition? Senator Huddleston . I think we will have to do that. 10 Okay . Are we ready to move on that? 11 Mr Aaron The recommendation is that whomever or however: 12 we define them a and that 8 obviously an important question, 13 that they either be prohibited by statute The other alternative 14 is to simply prohibit any further or recommend the prohibition 15 of any further CIA recruitment in this field 16 Ms Culbreath The way this is worded , this would get 17 anybody who is a member of a church. You have got recruit- 18 ments of American clergy or laitye 19 If I am a member of the Methodist church , I am in the 20 laity of the church_ 21 Mr. Miller_ You have raised a question There are people 22 who- are not priests in the religious hierarchy in a- particular 23 sect who may devote their entire lives to that particular 24 church 25 Senator Mathias Well, I think the word "a religious" Tee 5a #ee5F7 H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 29 why lay ================================================== Page 30 ================================================== TK)P SEcrET 27 1 I'm serious here should be considered 2 Mr . Aaron . "A religious? 90 3 Mr Bader We 11 have to obviously work on that _ Laity 4 was not meant here to be a member of a church, for technical 5 terms , the technical terns Mr Miller mentioned _ Mr. Miller As distinct from the. congregation ,, it was meant to deal with- the administrators in a religious order Senator Huddleston Well, some sects have lay preachers and clergy . 10 Mr . Kirbow . Senator Hart, do you want each of these 11 categories like this examined in the light :of the constitutionali 12 question that you raised earlier? 13 Senator Hart Of Colorado . I just raised the issue where 14 the academics were concerned to resolve it, S0 I'm sure it 15 should be raised by somebody . 16 Senator Huddleston Are you ready to go on the religious 17 insofar as what .i9 the definition? Then that will be 18 Senator Hart of Colorado _ Ye8 , Sir: 19 Senator Huddleston . Then that: will be moved . up I assume 20 with exceptions noted? 21 Mr , Kirbow I don't have any exception to that one ; sir 22 Mr, Inderfurth That is by. statute, right? 23 Benator Huddleston. Pardon? 24 Mr Inderfurth_ Is that by statute? 25" Senator Huddleston Right _ I Ren ps *93 Ht 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 30 lay ================================================== Page 31 ================================================== TuP SEcret 28 1 Mr , Maxwell There may be a First Amendment argument 2 here , particularly in fundamentalist groups whose religious 5 beliefs are committed, are directed toward opposition toward 4 Godless atheism 5 Mr diGenova Except that the control of religious organi_ # zation has historically been subject to governmental regulation in this Sense: the ` Supreme Court in light of Senator Hart' 8 question last night, I did a little. bit of research. The example, the prime example of regulation doesn t deal s0 10 much with prohibition of the Government dealing with someone 11 although there are Vast areas where the government is not 12 permitted to get into . The question is, for years the Supreme 13 Court has ruled that there are certain health regulations d 14 stateb that religious sects' must comply with; and they have 15 to comply with it even if it conflicts with their bagic religioys 16 belief , that they have to comply with it, like quarantines 17 or things of that nature 18 So there is clearly an area where the First Amendment of 19 religious freedom concept falls in the face of a greater good _ 20 the need: of the general public and that has generally been 21 in the health area , where there is some practice of the 22 religion which conflicta with Some standard which has been 23 set in the community at_large , and that generally has dealt 24 With health 25 Mr Kirbow Maybe the HEW Act can bring the CIA under one HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page. 31 ================================================== Page 32 ================================================== TO)P SECRET 29 1 Of these health threats. 2 Mr _ diGenova 0 Self-immolation . 3 Senator Huddleston. The snake acts and innoculationg 4 Mr . diGenova That' $ exactly right. 5 Mr Maxwell The problem is that' s, not quite applicable to this, and one has to argue in the past the Court has ruled on things that are found to be a threat to the personal liveli- hood or health of the individual rather than something: that could be construed in a fundamentalist sense 10 Senator Huddleston This doesn t preclude a sect that 11 may be anti-atheist, and a3 such anti-Communist from pursuing 12 its principles , but the restriction woula be pursing then through 13 a government agency , which happens to be the CIA; or any other 14 methods . 15 Ms Culbreath. Would this prohibit, then , somebody who was 16 a member of one of these sects that was in an area where they 17 gained information that would be helpful from them being sources? 18 Senator Huddleston I wouldn t think S0 if they wanted 19 to write letters to the CIA 20 Ms Culbreath Well, just in terg of the: debriefing kind 21 of thing, or contact. 22 MS . Davis We are talking about operational , not coming 23 in to the Domestic Contact Service. 24 Mr . diGenova It is not very clear on this_ 25 Mr _ Maxwell The problem in part goes back to the difficult; HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 32 ================================================== Page 33 ================================================== TC)P SECRET 30 we had with the Domestic Contact Division in trying to determine 2 what wag operational support, if operational support woula be 3 what did you learn about individuals there who' might be 4 receptive to American approaches _ Then the clergy would be 5 prohibited from providing that kind of information if that is operational support. 7 Senator Mathias . Well , it: geems to ne if the religious came in and said I was at a meeting: of the Rollers last nighd and we all went down on the mourner 8 bench, and I heara the 10 most remarkable things ; and this is what I heard_ there would 1l be no prohibition against listening. Now , if you say , go pack 12 to the Holy Rollers tonight 13 Mr . Kirbow And listen again_ 14 Senator Mathias Then you ve got a question_ 15 Senator Huddleston Then it is operational I_don t think there' $ a need to write in that it doesn't 16 17 pertain to the voluntary furnishing of information . I don't 18 know . Mr Aaron . I don t think 04 no , that 5 really not an 19 20 operational use, quite frankly. It'6 very similar to the DCD 21 which takes information fron lots of people, including people 22 who are and have been for some time proscribed by CIA S own 23 Senator Huddleston_ Well , anyway , that would be worked 24 out in the statute itself. 25 Mr Aaron We are spared the problem _ Te5 CfeDe? H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 33 Holy ================================================== Page 34 ================================================== TOP SECRET 31 1 Senator Huddleston We ought to move on 2 Mr _ Aaron _ The next section is proprietaries and cover, 3 Senator Huddleston. I just wonder if in pregenting this, these three , these four, now , that we have just approved , it 5 would be of any value to assert in our report that we recognize that the Agency has to find proper cover for its agents, that restricting that cover is a matter of sone importance , but there are certain institutions that the Committee feels because of their nature and because of their standing in the country, and 10 because of the need for the public to have confidence in then , 11 that should be , in effect, off limits and because of that 12 we reconnend that these four recommendations be brought. I 13 don t know whether you want to . make it sound any better 0 14 not 15 Senator Hart of Colorado . Mr Chairman, does the absence 16 of brackets on the next set of recommenda tions mean that 17 are non-controversial? 18 Senator Huddleston . On the proprietaries? 19 Senator Hart of Colorado: Yes 20 Mr Aaron. That is correct 21 Senator Huddleston._ The gentleman did such a great' job 22 that nobody can question then 23 Mr Aaron . I think there is one set of brackets , and 24 the next section is on page 67: in which it says that 25 Mr . diGenova _ Oh , yes , there is something. 7e 5 #eed25 H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 34 they they only ================================================== Page 35 ================================================== S2creT 32 1 Mr _ Kirbow: What page are you on? 2 Mr diGenova 67. 3 At the bottom of page 67 is a bracketed quote about Admiral Raborn, a former Director of Central Intelligence_ Now , if my memory serves me correctly now , first of all, this is the' first time that anyone is mentioned bY name in the findings _ 8 Senator Huddleston And the total findings are in that 9 section 10 Mr . Kirbow. The findings are this foreign and military. 11 Senator Huddleston _ We referred to Helms and Laird, but 12 I think we decided we coula write around that. 13 Mr . diGenova Well, here S what happened here. This 14 paragraph deals with the fact that when the Agency disposes or 15 dissolves a proprietary, it tries to avoid conflicts of interes 16 However # when noted that sometimes pressures were brought 17 to bear on the Agency to dispose of the entity as a favor to 18 someone , S0 that it would benefit someone else . 19 NOw , the most glaring example of this was this activity 20 of the former Director 8 Admiral Raborn , who actually became 21 involved in negotiations on behalf of a client , Overseas 22 National. Airways , which he represented and he wanted the sale 23 of Southern_ Air Transport , which was a CIA proprietary, large- 24 assets and large property, to Overseas National Airways , which 25 of course woula have. acquired Southern Air Transports lucrative HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 35 ================================================== Page 36 ================================================== Seulea 33 routes 2 Now the. way I originally had it written was "A former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency sought unsuccesg- fully to influence the sale 01 However , if it was left that way , people would have to guess at which one of these guys dia this and it would unfairly impugn all of the directors The name was inserted . Therefore the question now becomes whether it should be left in at all since the name is inserted and since the name is mentioned in the report, and whether or not the 10 whole sentence-= Senator Hart of Colorado Well, what if we just saia "A 11 12 former Director"? Mr:. diGenova Well,. the problem there , Senator , is then 13 14 people say , which one was it? Senator Hart of Colorado Good:. 15 Mr diGenova Oh , all right_ 16 Mr Inderfurth I think the assumption would be Richard 17 18, Helms Mr.. diGenova McCone more than Helms . 19 Senator Hart of Colorado _ Well, we ran into this lagt 20 sumer with the Exener matter and all like that _ 21 Ms Culbreath 0 A former person _ 22 Mr _ diGenova The Agency itself cited this as the most 23 flagrant example of intercession on behalf of anyone _ As a 24 matter of fact, the memorandums on this refer to dozens of 25 5ee 5a RPaDf? HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 36 ================================================== Page 37 ================================================== i4f Secret 34 1 phone calls and overtures , and it i8 a former Director trying to 2 gain a benefit. It i8 an unseemly situation 0 and they labeled 3 it as a conflict:of interest which' they gought to avoid, and in fact they: did, and are praised for it in the report 5 because they were really under tremendous pressure. So I have no feel one way or the other . I think to leave out his name unfairly impugns the other To leave it also , is only the second time in the whole findings and conclusip} that we mention anybody 8 name , 80 I don = t care, 10 Senator Hudaleston . And you ve got' one, Recommendation 11 No . 5 , related to the disposal of the. proprietaries 0 that he 12 Justice Department approve? 13 Mr , diGenova Be consulted On the disposition_ 14 Mr . Kirbow . Mr Chairman, can I be heara on that? 15 Senator Huddleston . Yes , sir. 16 Mr . Kirbow. Senator Hart, in this regard we have consistently 17 attempted by most: every reasonable means to not use the names 18 of people unless had committed some thing illegal 19 Senator Hart of Colorado . Mell don t side with Me I'm 20 not taking a position. 21 Mr Kirbow_ But the Exener . thing was a example, but 22 we must have had 20 other names that we went through on that 23 asgassination 0 and we wrote around them _ 24 Senator Hart of Colorado But a number of people argued 25 strongly that We ought to name her and go into details , So .I Tod CrpdeT HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 37 they ing in, they big ================================================== Page 38 ================================================== TOP SECRET 35 suppose the Same arguments could bel used here on this matter. 2 Mr Kirbow . But the point I raised: at the staff meeting 3 just before the Connittee came backl when: the subject wa8 raised , was dia Admiral Raborn as a retired military officer 0 5 currently in a civilian status although he was former beak any American law , or had they sold it to this 0 woula it have been a violation of the law, and the answer wag no If- he was involved 5r or theyl knew of no law that he had violated 0 and none is apparently cited in the record _ 10 Pressure was brought to bear 0 there is, no doubt about it,, by 11 Admiral Raborn I think there 8 another example. I'm not 12 sure whether Joe described it to Me or someone else, of a 13 very senior official out there dealing back with the. Agency . 14 Now 0 the military, a3 Senator Hart knows _ 0 is prohibited 15 from this by regulations and I think by law 0 I know that as a 16 regular military officer 0 you are not: allowed to do contractual 17 business with your agency forever but with the other military 18 departments and the Department of Defense , I think you have to 19 have a cleansing period of five to Seven years _ 20 I don t believe there is' any such provision in the Act 21 that applies to. former Directors, afd probably what the Committee 22 shoula do is consider this action without necessarily naming 23 him unless he was in violation of some really serious 24 wrongdoing, and make a prohibition 8 drawn similarly, with what 25 nowi applies to senior officials going back and kind of exerting 5ea Fa ERem HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 38 ================================================== Page 39 ================================================== TOP SECRET 36 1 undue influence on those people. 2 Senator Huddleston . Joe , is it accurate to say that 3 pressures were often brought to bear? 4 Mr diGenova We changed that to say: sometimes This is a rewrite Someone else wrote this after I had submitted it, and we had a meeting today , and we 'changed several things in there- So I leave it up to the Committee. This was a matter that I -= I wanted to it and leave it there _ The explanation 10 is a3 clear a3 I can give it. 11 Mr , Inderfurth This is the first time he is mentioned 12 in the entire paper 13 Mr diGenova That S right. 14 Senator Huddleston . Why don t we delete that sentence and 15 keep it in our full report, Our report. 16 Mr Kirbow There is a major classified report on 17 this that woula contain all the facts . 18 Senator Huddleston . I am aoncerned now whether: any other 19 ingtances of someone may be 0 of similar standing a8 Admiral 20 Raborn 21 Mr . diGenova Yes . There are instances in the record 22 which do not deal with proprietaries , of John McCone interceding 23 on behalf of Pan American directly with the Director of 24 Central Intelligence 0 and it is' not mentioned in the report, 25 and it should be, and it is a problem that we- have had 0 Mr Tem 5 epeDeT F 50955 DOcId:32423513 Page 39 Elag big ================================================== Page 40 ================================================== To)P SECRET 37 1 Chairman _ 1 has been that the work involving the relationship of 2 the Central Intelligence Agency with American business companies 3 wa8 severed off from the proprietary work for the ` simple 4 reason that' they are not the same thing_ 5 That work has been done _ It has not been pursued vigorous- not because the individual who was responsible for itd didn t want to Senator Huddleston _ That happened after he left. Mr diGenova _ That 5 right, after Mr McCone _ left the 10 DCI, he had frequent contacts , according to the records 8 with 11 the Agency_ 0 with high level: Agency personnel , and in one instanc 12 he interceded. personally with the Director of Central Intelliz 13 gence to avoid actions which woula be taken bY another govern - 14 ment and itg"airlineewhich woula adversely affect Pan American 15 World Airways . 16 Senator Huddleston. It is hard to separate a man from his 17 past totally. 18" Mr . diGenova_ It seems particularly hard with DCIs . 19 Mr Kirbow Well , not only here , this is not with the 20 Agency , but it came up in my experience with the Armed Services 21 Committee involving Continental Airlines . 22 Senator Mathias This sentence. 23 Senator Huddleston Just the sentence in brackets 24 Senator Mathias _ Well , I think if.you ve . got a Raborn' Case 25 a McCone Case and whatnot , that you can t make Eish of one and 0 Er# HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 40 1Y, ================================================== Page 41 ================================================== TLP SECRET 38 fowl of the other. 2 Senator Hudaleston I think we ve already said that 3 pressures sometimes were brought to bear and we make recommenda - tions to correct that. Ms Culbreath. Mr Chairman 0 could I suggest that maybe if We do delete that , that we perhaps redo that previous sentence ` to make it a little stronger $ and perhaps in Some way indicate that these were serious pressures , and they were , I 9 think, hard pressures to withstand when somebody in that kind 10 of position 11 Senator Huddleston. They were withstood , though_ 12 Mr Maxwell would get lost the. way the sentence is 13 cut_ 14 Mr . diGenova I think what we will do is David and I 15 will get together , and Elizabeth_ 0 and we will change this 16 "however" sentence , ehe sentence that precedes the one that 17 ha8 just been deleted, and we will expand that sentence to 18 more accurately explain that the. pressures came from high sources 19 sometimes Some of then may have been maybe former Agency 20 directors 21 Senator Huddleston I think we should make the point that 22 it was former 23 Snator Mathias Well, if they were former directors , 24 then you may as well leave in the last sentence . 25 Mr diGenova . Maybe . E5 H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 41 They ================================================== Page 42 ================================================== Tt)P SECRET 39 1 Mr Kirbow Mr Chairman, may I suggest that maybe 2 perhaps we use this type of part of the investigation and what we know from certain of the other files to prohibit this type 4 of conduct by law in the future in our general recommendations? 5 Senator Huddleston. And make it similar to 6 Mr Kirbow. Similar. I think would have to look at something from the staff_ Mr _ diGenova I didn 0 t have that recommendation in there 0 9 but I think the record indicates it ought to be there. 10 Mr Kirbow. It wouldn t be proper 0 necessarily, to put it 11 right here under proprietaries , but let'9 put it in_ the 12_ general recommendations_ 13 Mr diGenova David , did you that? 14 Mr . Aaron . I'm sorry: 15 There' $ a recommendation that 16 Mr , diGenova That Agency personnel 17 Mr Kirbow . Senior fficials_ 18 Senator Huddleston Similar to what applies now for 19 military 20 Mr _ Maxwell. Well , perhaps the statute, perhaps we could 21' recommend a statute similar to that governing the Department of 22 Defense 23 Mr Kirbow . Be enacted by the next Committee, similar 24 in effect to 25 Senator Huddleston . And find 8 proper place to put it in Tep CreDpT H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 42 you get ================================================== Page 43 ================================================== Tup SECRET 40 our recommendations . J lb 2 Mr Aaron Okay. 'begin 2a 3 Mr Maxwell Well , Charlie, correct me . I think the proprietary section would be the appropriate section because 5 that would be where it came up most/ unless there is another 6 one that see more readily. Mr _ diGenova We can work that out, I don' t think that'$ terribly Mr Kirbow I think there have been two or three sug- 10 gestions made here that will result in general" recomuendations 11 on a page that isn t necessarily supported findings _ 0 but you 12 come to this overally conclusion based upon your total concept 13 of the Agency and its procedures and everything else in view 14 of the findings _ 15 Mr diGenova 0 . The only thing I want to do is p David, 16 I know you have gone through this, but the Senators may want to 17 look at page 68 through 70 , which deal with cover , and particu- 18 larly with Mr Welch . 19 Ms Culbreath I had a point I wanted to raise on that. 20 Mr _ diGenova Well, Mr Chairman , I think: the Senators 21 want to read this 22 Ms . Culbreath don' t we let them look through it. 23 (Pause . ) 24 Senator Huddleston Let 8 go back on the record_ 25 Mr diGenova I do know the Agency is going to come in ToD cepdeT HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Bage 43 you by Why ================================================== Page 44 ================================================== TOP Secret 41 tomorrow to review the cover paper from . which this summary is 2 drawn . I know Eric has some problems with the cover paper both 3 editorially, because they, view it as overly simplistic and harsh because it" reflects all of the Inspector General ' s judgments , but they have some problems with cover in general but. I don 't think this is going to be part of that problem_ Senator Huddleston I have some problem with this page 70 . relating to Welch because it seems the whole implication of that is that he was, murdered because his cover was blown _= and 10 S0 far there has been no evidence that that is the case, It 11 highlights the argument , I think correctly, but it seems to me 12 it leaves' the impression that here is a case where a fellow' s 13 cover or lack of Cover resulted in his death. 14 I think the Agency people have specifically said to uS 15 So far that they have no reason at this point yet to expect 16 that that was the reason he"got killed. 17 Mr Maxwell In regard to the specific quote , I think 18 we have to be very careful 38 to getting involved in an argumen 19 which would imply that anything that we possibly did.had an 20 effect on it; and also , that it seens to point to Mr Welch 21 and say , well, it is all his fault. 22 Senator Huddleston He didn t protect his cover , he 23 didn t do what they advised him to do, and ' you see down here 24 Ve have another quote which says , referring to international 25 terrorism and incitement for these kind of people to take the H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 44 ================================================== Page 45 ================================================== TuP SECRET 42 kind of action which unfortunately led ito the death of Dick 2 Welch.. There again we are ascribing some thing to the death of 3 Dick Welch which nobody knows yet, you know , what terrorists killed him or why ; at least our record doesn t show . Mr diGenova _ These statements here, Senator, this is.a direct quote fron Eric Eisenstead 8 memo Do you think that we should maybe in the findings and recommendations shorten this and maybe Mr Kirbow. I think the part of the record which is. an- 10 unknown fact is Dick Welch was killed and we should stay 11 away from any quotes Or other pronouncements in our paper Which 12 attribute his death to any particular thing unless we know 13 something. 14 Mr _ Aaron , I think that is a good point_ We might put 15 in here a statement which says the Committee has no information 16 a8 to the reagong , purposes or cause; specific cause, of his 17 death_ The point is to get at the question of cover , to 18 step out to the question of cover in the report, a3 We do , I 19 think,. appropriately , but not have talked about the one case 20. where this all came out in public_ rightly or wrongly. 21 Mr = Kirbow . Why don t we use the cover for the' gentleman 22 in London , then , where as the tour buses go of course, you 23 know this is the home of the CIA chief and he hasn t been 24 killed yet or anything like that_ If we want to use that 25 kind instead of ubing this_ death example; which_ 0 by the way , Tad CecreT H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 45 why bY+ ================================================== Page 46 ================================================== T6Dp SECRET 43 has brought some thousands of letters Erom the constituency of 2 certain southern Senators who shall remain unnamed Or near- 3 Southern Senators, becabse it kind of wab a catalytic agent in getting a lot of complaints on the Committee and everything 5 else, and this pointing out or explaining Welch' s death goes back to it. 7 Senator Huddleston_ I m gort of southern _ 8 Mr Kirbow And You ve got a lot of them. Senator Huddleston Of course , it wag used for that; 10 purpose by certain high officials for that. 11 Mr. ' Kirbow. The very highest, including attending the 12 funeral 13 Mr diGenova Well, I think one of the things we wanted 14 to pinpoint here, and first of all, I think we can sumarize the 15 Agency 9 testimony a little better The Agency said, nothing 16 this Committee did , first of all, had anything to do with his 17 death , a8 far a8 know 18 Ms Culbreath. But they don t know. 19 Mr diGenova . As far as they know , don t know one 20 way Or another , but the impression that Was created in the 21 press was and was pandered to by the DCI and the President, 22 was that the general actions of exposure of Agency operations 23 were responsible for the death of Mr = Welch, and pandered 24 that by inviting Committee members to the funeral as if they 25 bore sone responsibility' 7 La ReeDFT H 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 46. they they they ================================================== Page 47 ================================================== Top SECReT 44 1 Now the obvious public relations value of Mr Welch '*s 2 death, the first time in! history the DDO and the DCI go_ to 3 a funeral in public, they never did that, and there i8 no doubt that they tried to. make political out of his death. 5 think it is only fair that the Committee ultimately say Senator Huddleston Right , but I think ve' got two different problems _ You ve got a problem with whether the Comnittee wants to present its case and exonerate itself on the basis of everything that is known about the death.of Welch , 10 and whether that i8 pertinent to the problem of cover 11 Now we make a recommendation that the CIA shall make} an 12 effort to place a greater proportion of its officer abroad 13 under nonofficial cover It seens like what we need , there' s 14 a statement here is that' official cover has not proved to be 15 effective 0 and if we mention Welsh at all, I think the point we 16 mention there is that his name was carried; that while he was 17 there supposedly under cover his nane was in fact carried in 8 18 newspaper , the name of his newspaper had been: carried in a 19 foreign newspaper , ana he was living in a house that was known 20 to be the house _ 21 Mr_ Kirbow = His true identity was widely known . 22 Senator Huddleston We can cite hin as an example without 23 indicating why he: had been killed , of here is a case that 24 eve rybody knows about, so-called official cover was not in 25 fact very deep cover , There may be other instances that we Ten RepDPT H# 50955 DocId:32423613 Page 47 hay you ================================================== Page 48 ================================================== TOp SECRET 45 1 want to refer to, but if we get into his death at all, I think 2 We have got to present the case that blowing his cover is not 3 necessarily what killed him Nobody knows that a3 of now , 80 far as I know Nobody knows it wasn t just .a street gang or an idiot 0 Mr Kirbow_ It could have been like the Senator, John Stennis case , where they buttonholed him in front of his house and killed him for robbery purposes Senator Huddleston We Ve asked them two or three times 10 here , have we not? 11 Mr , diGenova Yes we' have In fact they don t know 12 Senator Huddleston_ In fact, the last time Nelson was 13 here we asked him 14 Mr Aaron . Can I try a fix on this, turning to page 70 , 15 instead of saying 10 the career and tragic death of the station 16 chief , 20 let' s just say the 08 situation of the station chief in 17 Athens illustrates the tension As the: Chief of the Cover 18 Staff stated by the time a person becomes a 'chief of 19 station, there is not a great: deal Of Cover left" leaving in 20 the rest of that sentence , and then add in here, as you did_ 8 21 Mr Welch and his_predecessor were both identified and naned 22 in the local press Further, Mr : Welch occupied the same 00 23 house 24 Senator Huddleston Which presumably was known to be 25 the house of the station chief eeeF HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 48 ================================================== Page 49 ================================================== TO)p SECRET 46 1 Mt diGenova In fact, the station chief' s name and 2 address in Athens had been presented , 8 S0 when he wasiin there 3 the address had already' been printed previously . 4 Mr Aaron _ Which was also known_ 5 Senator Huddleston_ Now if we want to say something about; an added dimension to the seriousness on blowing cover or cover being diminished , 18 the situation in the world with terrorism or the vulnerability it makes of people 9 Mr , Kirbow To the unstable 10 Mr Aaron: Wellv the point in the testimony is that 11 this was an added danger , but: because they Ve .got a job to 12_ they re not going to really do too much about it. It's 13 a real risk they are just going to have to bear_ 14 Senator Huddleston That 5 an occupational hazard, but we 15 are talking-about how to protect their cover 0 and our recommen - 16 dation is that they use 4 4 have an official cover _ 17 Mr Kirbow Well, can the staff change the language, 18 because we know, exactly what you want to do , and withouti 19 taking further time , don t we just changecit. 20 Mr Maxwell_ I would just hope that the two quotes after 21 the one that David cited} the quote_ 0 he , Welch , was asked the 22 last guote, we could make the point in a different way because 23 the impact of the first quotev I think, is.this guy was stupid 24 and irresponsible, and" I don t think we need::to have any 25 implication like that in_ the report, and the second one , I Vea 5a CPed2? FW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 49 do , why ================================================== Page 50 ================================================== Top SECRET 47 1 think we can make the point that terrorism may constitute a 2 greater threat now . 5 Senator Huddleston I think that guote ought to go entirel_ because it does leave the implication that there was_ a direct link to losing his cover' and his assassination. 6 Now we don t know that_ Mr Aaron So just take out the last one Mr diGenova But still speak about the added danger of international terrorism Just stop at the word 0 international 0 10 terrorism_ 11 Senator Huddieston. Down in the recommendations I verbeen 12 talking to Joe about defining the small busines8 , and I think 13 we fairly well understand 'what- the concern i9, or do we , Joe? 14 Mr . diGenova , Senator, I was going to suggest, if you 15 look at Recommendation No . 3 , while it doesn t define what a 16 large proprietary is, the Senator was concernea about what was meant by 0 shoula be 'kept small 0 " and I tried to indicate 17 really we are talking about Air America where you had 8000 18 employees of the CIA , both in Langley and abroad and then 19 another 8000 employees Qf the Air America, complex That is 20 21 But I.think':What weishould say is ; organizationally small 22 23 and organizationally and numerically sma)l because what We are 24 really talking about is when they get whether it is in 25 numbers Or finances , and larger in terns of people usually means Tar CfeDpT MY 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 50 big. big, ================================================== Page 51 ================================================== T)P SecReT 48 1 larger in terms of finances , also . Then you have both of the 2 problems we addressed in the paper which was the risk of 5 unfair competition with private enterprise , and the risk of blowing cover, of compromising security. 5 So I think that Senator Huddleston . I was wondering if it could be designed in such a way a3 care should be, taken; that it not be any larger than necessary to achieve the objective for which it was established _ 10 Mr . Kirbow . Excuse me , Senator It woula not get the 11 Air America thing because at the time they needed one twice 12_ that size 13 Senator Huddleston. They needed it that that' s 14 right. 15 Mr _ diGenova The reason this language is in here is that 16 the Agency officials thenselves who testified, all of then 17 including the DDO , said'they would like to have small ones , in 18 other words , 3 small number- of employees , small operation. 19 Senator Huddleston What about their insurance business? 20 Mr . diGenova ~That's kind of an exception 0 although 21 actually that is an example of a lot of money with only a few 22 employees There are a couple of people that run that 23 whole thing, Isenstead and a couple of # 4 one investor 0 24 Istenstead and an auditor There are three men that run that 25 S32 million complex: So that i8 a different animal , really- 4 0a Cpe02? H 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 51 big , only ================================================== Page 52 ================================================== TO P SECRET 49 Senator Huddlegton So if you are going to use the term 08 2 "small you ve got to say it from the standpoint of employees 3 Or resources 4 Ms Culbreath. I was just going to suggest: that, since 5 another of our recommendations suggests. annual review Of 2ll of these criteria , and since their budgets are going to. have to be included for the oversight committee with review for the others , and we have got a proposal that the Committee also establish guidelines for the approval of the creation of large_ 10 proprietaries 8 should these become necessary. 11 Perhaps the better thing to since these proprietafies 12 are for a specific need at a specific time , ana since we have 1j got the review procedure , is sort' of trust itv to the oversight 14 committee: to see to it that' they don 0 t get too whatever 15 that may be , and leave it to then maybe just delete that 16 second Sentence . 17 Mr . Kirbow Well 0 that'8 certainly a workable' way . 18 Senator Huddleston. I don' see how you are going to' keep 19 that bentence in there without: having it. 20 Mr Aaron I would also suggest that perhaps in the 21 section on proprietaries_ 0 where we make a coment. about how 22 large proprietaries run risks in blowing their cover , we might 23 would it be possible, do you think 0 to make a finding or make 24 an example in regard to Air America? 25 Mr _ diGenova _ Absolutely because they have conceded Ton CrpDrt H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 52 do , big, ================================================== Page 53 ================================================== TOP SECRET 50 0 that 8 the one that ran all of the problems 2 Senator Huddleston _ You do mention that somewhere , don t 5 4 Mr Aaron . It'8 not mentioned specifically; but it might 5 be possible to say , you know 0 maybe you can, put a footnote on the first paragraph which Simply, said Mr_ diGenova You mean on the findings of page 66 that "too often large proprietaries have created unfair" Mr = Aaron . "Unwarranted risks Jof unfair; competition with 10 with 'private- husiness: in compromising their: cover: m1 You should 11 Say . 14 for:example ," "Air America, for: example , which:had :8, 000 12 employees , 'and sQ: forth ran into both of these problems 13 Senator Huddleston . I think that woula be all right. 14 Mr _ Aaron. And then you would have- at least Some reference 06 15 to what large] was 16 Senator Huddleston . Then you' ve got the review and the 17 oversight. 18 Mr Inderfurth So the idea here in the recommendation was 19 to take out the second" sentence . 20 Mr diGenova:: Yes 21 Mr Inderfurth. Why not take out the first as well and 22 just go to Recommendation No _ 2 as No _ 1? 23 Mr diGenova _ Well, I think # 4# can I just say this that 24 by indirection 0 approving of an activity i8, I suppose, one 25 way of doing it. I don t see anything wrong with stepping up E5 H 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 53 you? ================================================== Page 54 ================================================== 51 TOP SECRET 51 1 and saying we examined proprietaries_ we found them to be 2 they had problens but basically were all right. 3 Mr _ Inderfurth. Couldn t that be in the body a3 well? 4 Mr_ Kirbow The one thing we have failed to do on this 5 Committee is where we- are strongly in favor of 9 is to speak out in' a manner supporting an agency under otherwise violent attack from many sources , and I think 3= Mr Inderfurth. I think that_ is not true , Charlie. I think you Will find, if you read the findings of Bill Miller 10 and others wrote in the first part, it says: very strongly, 11 intelligence is necessary; we need it. 12 Mr Kirbow . I'm saying up until now it has been an agency 13 under attack. I think this whole section on foreign and 14 military has been to make a balance between past wrongdoing 15 and current operations 16 The Chairman . There can t be anything wrong with leaving 17 the sentence in there 18 Mr Maxwelll I raise 3 question to the second 19 recommendation , as to the reason why by statute there would be 20 an annual review rather than recommending that to Congressional 21 Committees: 22 The second ppart of that is, my-understanding of a_ number 23 of the proprietaries is that they are not operating; and to 24 require GAO audit of a whole group of in a sense notional 25 organizations may be preempting the kind of review that the Vaa F CpeDr? H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 54 they May ================================================== Page 55 ================================================== TOP SECRET 52 1 oversight committee should be doing rather than setting it out 2 here It' s just a question 3 Mr diGenova This is a rewrite of my original recommen- dation 0 and it 18'a. good pointa It may very well be that that: 5 is superfluous, if you are considering oversight by a committee Senator Huddleston _ The Committee cannot conduct an audit,| though Mr diGenova And that was the purpose for the Committee taking on board independent GAO auditors . 10 Mr Maxwell The Committee can request GAO auditors 11 Mr, Kirbow_ Anything that appears to be on an audit 12 calls for an audit 13 Senator Huddleston _ Calls for a GAO audit or gives the 14 Committee authority to call for one 15 Mr_ diGenova I don t think we need 2 statute. We can 16 talk about it as part of Congressional oversight As part of 17 the Congressional oversight function , the oversight committee 18 should review proprietaries annually 'and where necessary 19 conduct audits with the assistance of the General Accounting 20 Office 21 Mr Kirbowa Here , Mr Chairman , I think again the. point we 22 made yesterday , that we should say at leagt annually, So that 23 don t put You in a box 'if you want one every two months 24 because of circustances 8 "at least annually- 91 25 Senator Huddleston . You could add in Section 3 , at least Tar ceeDp5 HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 55 they ================================================== Page 56 ================================================== TOP SECRET 53 there, giving the Committee authority to establish guidelines 2 to establish for large proprietaries 0 shoula become 3 necessary _ You could also make the statement there that the Comnittee 5 may call for a GAO audit periodically. 6 Mr diGenova . So we will rewrite 2 to eliminate the. statut Senator Huddleston . Independent `GAO audit_ Mr . Aaron . No . 2 is rewritten S0 it is not required by 9 statute that there be an audit, internal audit? 10 Mr - Kirbow . No GAO audit. 11 Senator Huddleston . The thing I had in mind of 12 taking out of 2 wag just the independent GAO audit being 13 required by statute, and leave that to the discretion of 14 the Committee, but leave the rest of the review , right? 15 Mr Maxwell You amena it by statute that an annual 16 review of all proprietaries? 17 Senator Huddleston . An internal CIA audit. 18 Mr Maxwell Or would it recommend that , I'm not sure 19 which. 20 Mr diGenova I'm 'wondering whether it should be done 21 by statute Maybe we should recommend to the oversight 22 committee that there should be an annual review congisting of 23 internal CIA audit. 24 Mr Maxwell An annual report to the oversight comittee 25 and such GAO audits as the Committee Tap rredet HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 56 they only ================================================== Page 57 ================================================== TOP SECRET 54 Mr diGenova May deem necessary . 2 Senator Hudaleston. That' $ all right_ 0 3 Mr_ diGenova . And then we could add, as part of its 4 annual report, the GAO should record all of its intercessions 5 That should be 10 report: 0 They record all of them # S0 'change "recora" to "report" Ne: can rewrite that. Senator Huddleston. Make that a little stronger _ 9 Mr diGenova Must report? 10 Senator Hudaleston. Shall be required to report 11 Mr _ Aaron_ I'm sorry. 12 Could we now have a recapitulation by whomever thinks they 13 followed this? 14 Mr _ diGenova Elliot? 15 I defer 16 Mr . Maxwell. "There should be an annual review 01 t 17 Mr_ Aaron There is no longer a statute The Committee 18 recommend8; that there be, right? 19 Mr_ Maxwell - B8 # "a review ; at least" annually, of all 20 CIA proprietaries . 9 21 Mr. Aaron By_ whon? 22 Ms Culbreatha By the oversight committee 23 Senator Huddleston By the oversight connittee 24 Mr. Maxwell. Well 0 re defining what the review is 25 in the next part. "consisting of an internal CIA audit and a Ted C@ede5 H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 57 you:' ================================================== Page 58 ================================================== T8p SECRET 55 1 report to the oversight committee a8 well as such independent 2 GAO audits 38 the comittee shall direct. As part 0f its 3 annual report to the oversight Conmittee" 04 "As part of its report to the oversight Committee, the CIA shall report, 08 and 5 then the rest of the sentence, "all its intercessions on behalf of its proprietaries. #8 Mr Aeron_ May I just make 3 guick editorial fix? "The Committee reconends the overight Committee conduct an annual review of all proprietaries' consisting of an internal CIA 10 audit and report to the oversight Committee. " 11 Mr = Kirbow_ No , the Committee cannot conduct a GAO 12 audit can insist that that' s part of the report that is 13 presented to ita 14 Mr Aaron That' s, it, consisting of a report to the over 15 sight Comittee of an internal CIA audit, is that rigt? 16 Mr Kirbow. What you are trying to do is to require 17 the CIA to reveiw it, to conduct a CIA audit,. and to report 18 fully all of the review entailed _ 19 Mr diGenova Not just the audit themselves , There are 20 certain operational details you are going to want to know about 21 also , not just financial security_ 22 Mr 0 Kirbow . Mr . Chairman, let: uS rewrite that one . We 23 will include it. 24 Senator Huddleston Well, you see , you could combine 25 43and 2 together , since we are just going to use one sentence , Top CrsdeT Mm 50955 DocId,32423513 Page 58 They ================================================== Page 59 ================================================== TOP SEcrEt 56 1 the first sentence in. No . 1 , and after we say the external 2 andcinternal controls, the oversight comittee should require an 5 annual report of all proprietaries by the CIA, including an internal CIA audit ana all intercessions that the CIA may have 5 made on behalf of proprietaries 6 Mr diGenova That' $ it, that' all in one sentence We can fix that. 8 Mr . Aaron: All right. We ' 11 take Joe S fix 9 Mr Kirbow. In three I am not sure what you mean In:the 10 DCI'8 budget presentation_ 01 That almost has a word: of art 11 connotation in the Senate. A budget presentation is that 12 thing which the Secretary of Defense and the Director of the 13 CIA makes to the Appropriations Committee 8 14 Mr _ diGenova We are talking about an authorization, 15 aren t we , an annual authorization here? 16 Mr . Inderfurth Look on page 26' and you 11 see the 17 definition of that under (b) The DCI shall have responsibilith 18 for' preparing the budget of the national intelligence program 19 for presentation_ to the President and the Congress . This 20 13 the budget presentation that'9 being.referred to under 21 this 22 Mr , Kirbow_ Well 0 now you cone to the real question,_ 23 , proprietaries being listed in the DCI s budget presentation . 24 Most of: his proprietaries neither use any money up nor make 25 any money or anything . They are just shelf items Tad erebft HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 59 ================================================== Page 60 ================================================== J 1 Tu)P SECRE# Here again you come to the' notional 2 Mr _ diGenova NO , no , Charles # because- the point 3 made during our review out there was that never have the proprietaries appeared in the budget presentation_ They have been hidden , and the object is to identify them in the: budget. a3 a line item, for example- Mr Maxwell One suggestion might be, be listed, that; implies a list of proprietaries _ Senator Huddleston . Where does this list Mr Kirbow What you want to do is to require them to 10 include a discussion of the proprietaries in his annual report 11 to the oversight committee is what you want to isn € 12 it, because they don t have that now They don t report to 13 the Armed Services_Comittee. They only report to :Appropriations 14 Senator Huddleston How would it be 'listed in the budget 15 under your proposition here , Joe? 16 Mr diGenova Well , I"m just assuming # well, I am 17 assuming in terns of oversight the Committee is going to want 18 to know even though this is not going to be published 0 where 19 this money is. going and what it is. going to be used for # 20 if they" are going to authorize it. 21 Mr _ Aaron , I think the term really should be 22 Mr Kirbowa I think it ought to be more than in the 23 24 budget . Mr diGenova I know that S not - just what they are going 25 Tad CredeT HF 50955 DocId:32423513 60 they go? d0 , Page ================================================== Page 61 ================================================== TOP SEcREt 58 1 to be asking, 0 but: the thrust of this was to make sure that 2 proprietaries found their way into the budget , ana that Senators knew what they were authorizing when they authorized the budget. 4 Now: , how it gets in there, I am not a budget expert. Mr. Kirbow That is what I am trying to supply here becaus in this process there is a procedure that when you say there sha 7 be authorizing legislation 0 where the line items are discussed before the authorizing committee and not before the budget committee, which is the appropriations committee, and if you 10 require that he discuss or report the annual operation of the 11 proprietaries in his annual report to the oversight committee 12 You will accomplish what you are trying to 'do_ and not exclude 13 it only for the presentation before the Appropriations Comitteel 14 Mr Maxwell Could I try a fix on this? 15 Mr diGenova You are invited . Mr Maxwell The oversight comittee should require that 16 17 the DCI 8 budget presentation to the Appropriations Committee and the oversight committee_include a specific discussion of 18 19 the financial aspects of CIA proprietaries_ I mean , we are trying to bring them out and see what the' impact is on the 20 21 budget 0 where do they: fit in. Senator Huddleston . Can they do that, though , without 22 identifying, the proprietary and where it is located and whateved 23 24 Mr diGenova They have indicated they could . Mr Aaron Jim; Taylor , when he was; here talking to the 25 TaD Rrepet HW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 61 ================================================== Page 62 ================================================== TOP SECRET 53 Committee , talked about how they are beginning to drawing - a 2 way to work in' the proprietaries so that can both identifyl 3 them and indicate their cash flow implications for the budget , and in effect 4 5 Senator Huddleston . What would You have proprietaries 6 Mr . Aaron _ Proprietaries income and outgo_ Mr _ Kirbow But that would never be published , Senator. If you want to accomplish what you are suggesting here 9 that they report the cash status or the financial status you 10 add that additional sentence to this combined 1 and 2 up here 11 that the Senator just proposed a minute ago , and indicate that 12 that report should also include the financial status or the 13 Senator Huddleston. But you do that with the, audit, don't 14 you, the internal audit? 15 Mr . Kirbow_ Well, in fact you do , in fact you do 16 Mr Aaron. Well,: I think the point maybe I"m not 17 captioning this properly, Joe, but I think the point here is 18 that proprietaries either earn money or cost money , sometimes 19 a little of both, and it has an impact , therefore on the 20 overall CIA budget, particularly in the past when income from 21 the proprietaries could be placed in either the contingency 22 reserve or used to finance , in effect, operational purposes 23 of the proprietary. In other words , Air America was earning 24 money on its operations 8 and yet it was costing then more 25 because they were engaged in certain risky operations _ In 5ea Ea 2 HY 50955 Docld:32423513 Page 62 they ================================================== Page 63 ================================================== TQP SECRET 60 1 In effect, the proprietary was earning money which was 2 financing the proprietary organization_ 3 Mr Kirbow But they: can no longer do that- What they earn now must go into the general Treasury_ 5 Mr Aaron . No , gross earnings do not go into the general Treasury. Their net, and part of the cost of doing business would include the cost of some of their operational purposes I think the point of this inclusion here was to see if one could require in connection with the budget , not: just in 10 general , with an audit of what it -does specifically, but in 11 terms 0f the entire activity of the CIA , to a spelling out 12 of its sort of macrobudget implications in ters of up" or down 13 and secondly, its budget implications for the certain categoriesl 14 of operations which were involved 0 such as, if you are talking about the conduct of the support for the activities in Laos 15 Mr diGenova Paramilitary operations _ 16 Mr Kirbow. Well, leave it like it is if that is what: you 17 are trying to do , because they Will be sure to, report it-to 18 the Appropriations Committee in excruciating detail, but they 19 won t report it to the: authorization committee unless they 20 21 require it to get money. So if you want to leave it a detailed budget , their 22 presentation to the budget committee, this language Will get ` 23 24_ that done Senator Huddleston Well, what if you said something like 25 CepDFF HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 63 get ================================================== Page 64 ================================================== Tc)P SECRET 1 this, furthermore, or adding to that, the fiscal impact or 2 the budgetary impact of the proprietaries should be included 3 or defined in the DCI 8 budget presentation_ 4 Mr. Maxwell Specifically discussed? 5 Mr_ diGenova That, language would mean it'8 included in his presentation in some way because_ the allusion that David made to Jim Taylor is that they are beginning to put it into their budget presentation. I know that is a term of arta Senator Huddleston. That eliminates any idea of listing 10 them 11 Mr . diGenova Elliot 8 point also about the authorization 12 committee should be added in there _ 13 Senator Huddleston We ve 90 much money invested , 14 and 33 money made money and: 40 made money for a net gain of 15 S0 and s0 16 Mr Maxwell And you should have sone notion of that 17 and the problem was that you weren t able to ahold of ita 18 Senator Huddleston _ And we sold two or three of them for 19 this amount. 20 Mr diGenova . That is the whole isgue of their visibility 21 in the budget 0 the whole question_ 22 Senator Huddleston . Well, where does that visibility 23 disappear? 24 Mr diGenova . Well , before they never showed up . 25 Mr Maxwell Before you had the, covert: action_ Tar crpDcT HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 64 got get ================================================== Page 65 ================================================== TOP SECRET 62 Senator Huddleston _ Well , where: wilil: it disappear' 2 now? It won t come to the authorization committee and the 3 appropriations committee . I mean , it Won t be a line iten Mr Aaron _ Proprietaries as a category? 4 5 Mr Maxwell. I would assume it is going to be a subsectionl of operational support in covert action. Mr _ Aaron . Not necessarily. I think are struggling with that at this point trying to define it properly and how it should be presented_ I mean , I really don t think we know 10 They have an intention to do it because recognize that 11 potentially it is a source . of real question a3 to how much 12 money is being spent on clandestinc activities: that is self- 13 generated by the Agency because of its proprietary 14 activities . 15 Mr _ diGenova : The impact, Senator, was also to show that 16 the Comittee had looked at this broadly, was aware of possible 17 budget: and authorization implications of various entities , 18 including proprietaries , and that it wanted to say something 19 about that. Ic was not necessarily anything dramatic 20 Senator Huddleston Well, I will agree with that. I am 21 just worried about if you say you expose proprietaries too much_ 22 are exposing cover 23 Mr . Aaron . Well , this is internal This is classified_ 24 Mr diGenova This i5 not public 25 Mr . Maxwell _ Well, I think the language the Senator 7e 5 CfeDCT HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 65 they they you ================================================== Page 66 ================================================== TL)P SECRET 63 1 suggested got to that_ 2 Mr_ Aaron _ Well, let me see if I can read out what I woula 5 propose along the lines I think we discussed. 4 The oversight comittee should require that the fiscal 5 impact of proprietaries be made clear in the DCI 8. budget presentation to the oversight committee = If you want to ada the appropriations committee , you can , but I think the point is that that happens Mr . Kirbow . If you 11 listen just one minute 0 Mr Miller 10 knows and I believe the Senator knows that "in the Senate there 11 is a formal budget presentation made to the Appropriations 12 Committees _ Ib They are not made elsewyere_ Reports are made 13 to oversight committees on the status and all of these other 14 things _ 8 ana if they request any money for those proprietaries , 15 they would request that before the authorizing committee. If 16 you are just trying: to accomplish getting it made known to the 17 oversight committee , drop the word 01 'budget presentation 08 and 18 adopt the conmon usage of the annual report of the Agency Or 19 of the DCI 20 But that is kind of a word of art. Those are words of 21 art in the Senate 0 and they will seize on it because today 22 they don t do it for anybody else but the Appropriations 23 Comnittee . 24 Senator Huddleston. I think that' $ reasonable_enough 25 It ought to be clear TaP RpeDRT HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 66 ================================================== Page 67 ================================================== TW)P SECRET 64 Mr Aaron Let me try another fix here because I'm 2 not too_sure 3 The, oversight committee shall require the fiscal impact of 4 proprietaries in the CIA s budget be made clear in the Director 5 authorization presentation , or what phrase is that? In the Director' s what? Mr _ Kirbow. The DCI 8 annual report to the appropriate oversight committee 8,. 9 Senator Huddleston . The DCI 8 annual report _ Mr Kirbow The Agency would not report separately They 10 should make their presentation a part of the DCI}s report 11 to the appropriate oversight committee . 12 Mr. Maxwell- While we are on that, could I, on No .. 6 we 13 have already , I thought, by statute prevented any covert: action 14 being funded other than by (a) appropriation to a covert action 15 budget , or (b) the con tingency reserve 16 Mr diGenova . That' s right. 17 Mr Maxwell D oes that make No . 6 redundant? 18 Mr Kirbow . Yes. 19 Senator Huddleston_ The only comment I would make is 20 that the other is not an accomplished fact yet. This might 21 be accepted, and that might not_ 22 Mr Maxwell. Well the reason I say that is that the 23 way this reads I would have or would be opposed to it because 24 it provides an exception with the' approval of the versight 25 7aa 5 C2eD25 HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 67 ================================================== Page 68 ================================================== TO)P SECRET 65 1 committees , when we want, I think, to be able to go to the 2 Congress and say , we recommend most strenuously that only these 3 two methods be used for funding , rather than providing 8_ third method' and someone says , well_ maybe we should have a_ fourth method and I would like to go with the strongest possible recommendation in regard to the earlier statutory requirenent that it only be by specific #propriation to_ covert action and the contingency reserve fund _ Mr _ Kirbow Otherwise , Mr Chairman , we will stand a 10 chance of getting the other amended;. to allow the: oversight committee . to allow it. 12 Mr _ diGenova Why don 0 t we say this by statute, and then 13 have the rest of the, sentence an addendum which would just 14 allude to the fact that funding is to be accomplished to the 15 method we set out if you want to eliminate it. 16 Well 0 this was the problem that was raised, or an issue 17 that was raised during the study, and this is set in here 18 for that reason It can easily be removed if it is inconsisten 19 with another recommendation of the Committee. 20 Mr Aaron . Well 8 we have two or three different earlier 21 provisions that relate to this The first i3 that re- 22 programming authority, defining reprogramming authority, the 23 possibility that something used, for a program covert action X 24 which involves a proprietary that generates a certain amount 25 of money , can be used for program Y H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 68 ================================================== Page 69 ================================================== TC)P SECRET 66 l The second issue 15 we have proposed that covert actions 2 be funded either by line item or by the contingency reserve . 3 The third thing we proposed is that the contingency reserve be replenished , if I am correct, only by appropriation, concur- 5 rence of the oversight Committee Now what this in effect does # I think the question that he driving at is, what do you do with the profits: of a proprietary organization? Can you put it in the contingency reserve?, 10 If SO , our other recommendation woula uP the notion 11 that it can be done with the concurrence of the Committee. 12 Is there gome other purpose , direct transfer? Well , 13 presumably one of the limitations on reprogramming 33 'and this 14 would be: a fair point to. make here, ag part of its definition 15 of limitations on reprogramming , it is recommended that the 16 oversight committee proscribe the ailocation of profits from 17 any proprietary to a covert operation without their express 18 consent _ And this is really kind of @ # if it doesn t go , througk 19 the con tingency reserve, it really goes to the question of 20 reprogramming _ 21 Now,,. I realize that we have said that our other recommen 22 dation by implication would prohibit this , but it is only 23 implication , 0 I would think 24 Mr Maxwell My sense is that providing this 25 Mr Aaron . You kind of create a channel Tad CeeDeT F 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 69 '9 pick only by: by ================================================== Page 70 ================================================== To)p' SECRET 67 Mr Maxwell It's not that you create a channel # but you 2 aid the increase the temptation for the proprietaries to try 3 to .generate funds , and secondly, I think it is the easiest way for the oversight committee to have a handle on covert action, 5 and particularly its funding, is to say there are two ways you can do it. You can do it either the regular appropriation process , or you can do it through the contingency reserve fund_ But if You start to build in the ways that the contingency reserve fund can be replenished , I think people 4 I think there 10 may be a loss of control Mr _ Aaron , Well, this is a it can be replenished 0 11 12 and this is not prohibited by anything we have recommended 13 yet. Mr Maxwell I understand that , but I guess I was trying 14 15 to clean up the organizational structure_ Mr Kirbow I think this is the problem with recommending 16 the legislation piecemeal 0 is that the insurance company out 17 there is a covert operation. It i9 a secret operation at the 18 agency conducted in that manner , and if you allow: only 19 covert operation to be: 'funded ' only from the' contingency 20 reserve, whatever monies they generate will have to go back inta 21 the general treasury because they cannot-be used to either 22 replenish the contingency reserve or to operate a covert or 23 24 to perform a covert function or operation . So they are not even they can't not only use the profits 25 4 Fa RpeDe? HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 70 by way ================================================== Page 71 ================================================== Tth? SecrET 68 1 to do that, they cannot use the general monies that they 2 generate from that to conduct_ They will have to fund that 5 insurance program in the contingency reserve Mr diGenova No , not at all, because it is not a covert 5 operation = That is ~not being use to fund a covert operation . 6' It has been used to pay pensions and annuities Eo foreign agents _ It 5 not a covert operation _ Senator Huddleston Agents are covert, If you restrict it to use of funds 0 if it is not already done_ 8 no funds 10 derived from the operations of proprietaries shall be used for 11 any other purpose except the operation of the proprietary and 12 any profits shall be returned to the general treasury. 13 It precludes it 0 doesn' t it? 14 Mr = Aaron_ That would solve the problem, yes 15 Mr Kirbow And that's what are doing today- by 16 regulation_ 17 Senator Huddleston. Can we say that? 18 Mr Aaron I don't see not 19 Mr diGenova Well 8 we say that in our recommendation No 20 Mr : Aaron_ Well, this says 21 Mr _ diGenova That deals with terminations and liqui- 22 dations 23 Mr Aaron. This i8 liquidations and terminations This 24 is not just operations _ 25 Mr Maxwell There is one problem, a slight problem Tha RE 26 H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 71 they why ================================================== Page 72 ================================================== TO)p SEcrd# 69 18 that some 'of the profits are reinvested. It is not that 2 take everything over or break even . 3 Senator Huddleston Well, I didr t say that. I said all 4 funds not needed in the operation 5 Mr Bader Perhaps , Mr Chairman 8 you could amend No . to all returns of funds or profits not needed for the operation Mr _ diGenova There You go whether from liquidations terminations or profits exceed for the needs of the operation of the individual proprietaries should be remitted to the U.S . 10_ Treasury _ 11 Senator Huddleston You can work that out So that it woul = 12 be understood that there is a need to keep a certain reserve back 13 Mr diGenova _ We will unite 4 and 6 . 14 Senator Huddleston. That' s all but 5 . 15 16 Mr diGenova _ 5 is only about the Department of Justice 17 being. notified a3 to the disposition Mr Aaron Now , we have two recommendations with respect 18 to cover The first is just to recommend that the Department of 19 State stop publishing data which makes it pssible to identify 20 people under cover 21 Mr , Kirbow Well, just a minute. On No . 5 I do have 22 a question here_ 23 The Agency doesn t off on any other disposal of 24 25 United States properties and military bases or major edifices or "ae 5a CE0p5n H# 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 72 theyl sign ================================================== Page 73 ================================================== JeLKEi 70 anything like that 2 Mr diGenova And the reason for that is every other governmentiagency is 'subject:to the: rules and: statutes of the Federal Disposal of ,Property Act , and the CIA isn t. Mr . Kirbow Do you see this could be an abuse area? Mr _ diGenova . I coula See the .Attorney General , if he knew that Admiral Raborn or some other Director is putting pressure on the CIA to dispose of 2 piece of property , woula 9 want to know about that , since they are not subject to the_ 10 Federal Disposal of Property Act like every other government 11 agency is. 12 I don 't think I think the record clearly shows , and 13 the General Counsel indicated that he was' not opposed to having 14 outside review of their disposals 0 ` provided .it was classified 15 or done in a classified way since: have never had any 16 problem 17 Mr , Kirbow What you are doing here 0 approving the final 18 disposition of disposal , if you are intending that he review 19 the disposal process or participate in it, he wouldn t have knong 20 aboue Raborn He wouldn t have known about Raborn at all 21 because he didn t dispose of it to his client , ana this would 22 not pick up that kind of abuse that you have discussed here. 23 Mr diGenova Suppose it had been disposed of to Admiral 24 Raborn 0 and they Knew about it, and the AG said, is this 25 being done? It would raise a red flag which would not otherwise Tad RfeDET HH 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 73 they why ================================================== Page 74 ================================================== TC)P SeCRET 71 be raised since the Federal Disposal of Property Act would not 2 have applied which would have flagged that legally to any other: 3 agency 4 Mr _ Aaron _ It woula also strengthen the Agency s hand to 5 resist those purposes_ 0 to just simplyi say , this has to be signed out by the Attorney General This isn't going to work It seems to me that what we do need here 8 Mr Kirbow. If what we are trying to do is get his participation just having him approve it doesn t get his 10 participation 0 I think we ought to put that in' if that 8 what 11 we want to do . 12 Mr = diGenova _ I think the word 10 approve m i8 rwrong . It 13 should be 0 participate. 10 The sale or disposition of any CIA 14 proprietary 15 Senator Huddleston . How are you going to make it "partici- 08 16 pate?" 17 Mr diGenova _ I think the wor we want is 01 consultation 1 18 Senator Huddleston _ I think what--we are trying to do is 19 replace what other agencies have to do in an overt' way and 20 under a specific law which this agency is not under So it will 21 have some assurance that it is being done in a" _ proper' way . 22 Mr Kirbow . I don t disagree with the AG being in on the 23 act, but this one gets you participation on disposition; 24 Senator Huddleston. Well 8 figure a way to: get it done 25 Mr Aaron Well what I wanted to say was I would like to 7ea Fa epepet H# 50955. DocId:32423613 Page 74 hey , ================================================== Page 75 ================================================== TO)P SECRET 72 note that back on page 67 where we have struck out the reference 2 to Mr _ Raborn and intend to expand on the pressures having 3 been brought to bear part of that expansion should include 4 a statement' that there is no or that the Federal Disposal 5 of Property Act does not apply to the. CIA, which is a crucial aspect. Mr . Kirbow. are exempt 0 Land then bring in the requirement for CIA or for the AG participation 9 Mr . Aaron _ And that includes that_ 10 Mr diGenova So we will rewrite 5 to make it consultation 11 Ms Culbreath David, on cover, : may I just say ;didn'+ 12 we decide to delete the opening 'paragraph?: i3 Mr_ Aaron . You're right, you"re ,right. 14 Ms Culbreath_ We were just going to list the recommen- 15 dations 16 Mr diGenova Yeah , we already said that_ 17 Mr Aaron NOw we have a recommendation that the 18 CIA should make an effort to place a greater proportion of its 19 officers abroad under nonofficial cover , and that recommendation 20 is in brackets . Recommendation (a) 0 that the CIA make a 21 greater effort to place a greater proportion of its officers 22 abroad , 0e under: nonofficial cover" is in brackets 23 Senator Huddleston That relates to the Welch discussion_ 24 Mr Aaron . It relates to the Welch discussion and it 25 relates to the difficulties and problems of official cover, ToD CfeDrT HW 50955 DocId:32423513 75 They Page ================================================== Page 76 ================================================== TC)P SECRET 73 1 Mr Bader_ How do you feel about this , Joe? 2 Mr diGenova This is a problem because just like the man 3 says , cover is a relative thing. I don € think there is anything wrong with saying that the CIA, that they should make 5 an effort to put 4 # really not much of a recommendation 3 Mu shoulh make an effort to place a greater. proportion of its officers abroad under nonofficial cover 0 and the . Agency does not see that in this form wouldn t view that as a bad thing. They thi cover is, if it is deep and effective, is okay . They just say 10 well, their answer this way , well you know you don t do 11 much work under deep , nonofficial cover, and one Of the prices 12_ you pay is you don t have a lot of operational freedom You 13 have to work hard at your regular job and you don t do a whole 14 heck of a lot. 15 The recommendation 8 the way- it is phrased = # is sort of a 16 push to them to see if can find better ways It also 17 probably tells them that maybe. they should use proprietaries 18 abroad a little more, which are very , very efficient ; according to Eric, according to both things . operations and cover 19 Mr _ Aaron, I think we have got to be careful on this 20 point. I mean , we ought to wait until the staff director 21 returns because I think he has a particular interest in this 22 suggestion but we are talking about moving more people into 23 unofficial cover , I would like to express my Own persional 24 reservations about that in terms of its relationship to a 25 Tod repDeT HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 76 they ================================================== Page 77 ================================================== Top SECRET 74 number of things that the Committee has already decided to do 2 Senator Huddleston. We are eliminating a lot of cover 3 Mr Aaron . That' 8 the first thing. 4 Now the second thing e & and these are nonoffocial cover 5 categories . The second thing that we are doing is trying to place somewhat greater authority in the hands of the ambassador and the missions overseas to know what is going on . That is something that they can do when it is in_ their house. Itis something that' s extremely difficult for them to do when it is 10 off in the forest someplace_ 11 So it is D1 and as Joe just said, it looks like a recommen- 12 dation to use more proprietaries in part because it is in the 13 same section , but in reality because that is one of the ways they might do it, and I just wonder how much we have thought 14: through for ourselves where the balance of our recommendations 15 16 lie, particularly since most of the stuff 18 derived basically 17 from operational experience anyway : There was a period , toward the end of Mr Bissell' s 18 career: in the Agency , or maybe shortly thereafter , when they 19 began to try to put more people in unofficial cover and it 20 wasn t a very good experience for them. 21 Mr Kirbow David, how does the ambassador lose control 0 22 whether it is official or unofficial 0 except that he has got 23 them in. his compound? Itlis an official government function 24 over which he has absolute control 25 7e p ceepe? MY 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 77 ================================================== Page 78 ================================================== Up JtcrE/ 75 1 Senator Huddleston . But if they Keep coming to the 2 embassy to check with. him, they blow their cover , unless they do 3 it by telephone. 4 Mr . Kirbow: Well, I don ' t think they shoula go to the embassy at all I think their contact should become covert. Mr _ diGenova . Well 8 we re sort of caught between a rock and a hard place because we: know the official cover is we cover it best; 9 Senator Huddleston. Well, we could approach in 10 that one way is to improve official covert 11 Mr Aaron . That is the one recommendation we make here 12 but the limfts on that are very 3 they are just structurai 13 like. 14 Senator Huddleston. It seems to me like we are in an 15 area that we know a lot less about than the people who are 16 in the business . 17 Mr . Aaron- That is gort of mY feeling. 18 Mr_ Kirbow We are asking them to proscribe against 19 anything- that they can convince an oversight comittee in the 20 future is essential. in the trend of that: time 21 Senator Huddleston Shouldn t we say that the time has 22 come for a whole review of cover to see whether Or not they 23 can find some better ways? 24 Mr Maxwell . We might say that the first large scale 25 study in '8 and '49 of the Agency , done by Mr Dulles , among Teat cepDrT HI 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 78 maybe ================================================== Page 79 ================================================== TC,P SECRET 76 L_ others ; recommended very strongly that; there be more unofficial 2 Covera 3 I think the: Agency has been under considerable pressure 4 throughout its existence to do that, and as Joe pointed out 5 there are cettain limits to what it has been able to do _ Senator Huddleston. Well, I think rather than suggest what ought to be more or less afficial or unofficial cover , the whole matter ought to be studied immediately by the Agency , ana see if they can find sone new ways consistent with all the 10 restralnts and prohibitions that the Committee hag placed upon 11 them. 12 (General laughter.) 13 Senator Huddleston All right;: where: does that leave uS 14 here today 2s we close out today $ session? 15 Mr Kirbow Mr Chairman , might I suggest that in keeping 16 with an earlier discussion today, that because it is a summary 17 of findings a8 well 38 an introduction, that perhaps while 18 we are nice and fresh, tomorrow we might take up the intro- 19 ductory section prepared by the Staff Director , So that if we 20 change it much, weleither make the rest of ur 21 Senator Huddleston Have any of the other members seen it 22 at all, Bill? 23 Mr _ Miller Just Senator Mathias 24 Senator Huddleston All right, do you want to meet: at 25 10:00 clock in the morning? Tod ceeDfT HM 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 79 `0' ================================================== Page 80 ================================================== TOp SECRET 77 Mr _ Aaron . Are we going to terminate now? 2 Senator Huddleston. They ve got a vote going and it' s 5:10 _ I think we d better_ 3 (Whereupon , at 5:10 0'clock P.M & , the Subcommittee 4 recessed subject to the call of the Chair.) 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ted_ cpDeT HF 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 80

JFK Declassified Files

Back to Search

157-10014-10125.pdf

Released: March 18, 2025

Download from Archives

Page 1 of ?

This document is provided for research purposes only. For official versions, please visit the National Archives.