Transcript of 157-10014-10005.pdf
==================================================
Page 1
==================================================
157-10014-10005] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date 08/06/95
Page 1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER 157-10014-10005
RECORDS SERIES HEARINGS
AGENCY FILE NUMBER 01-H-05
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR SSCSGO
FROM ANGLETON JAMES
TO
TITLE
DATE 06/19/75
PAGES 113
SUBJECTS ANGLETON JAMES
USSR
CIA
FBI
NOSENKO , YURI
CIA, RELATIONSHIP WITH WC
OSWALD , LEE RUSSIAN PERIOD
DOCUMENT TYPE TRANSCRIPT
CLASSIFICATION UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS NOT ASSASSINATION RELATED
CURRENT STATUS RELEASED WITH DELETIONS
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 09/25/98
OPENINC CRITERIA
COMENTS Box 1
[R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED
HW 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 1
==================================================
Page 2
==================================================
Sion
Dubject ` TOP SETHE
Eo_Cripfntlte
R323
Miitci Btutra Bruute
&i
Report of ['roceedinge
Wrventori
OM
bS
Hearing held belore
Benate gelect Conalttee to Btudy Governeantal
Oparetlona Mith Respect to
Intelligence ActivItles
Thurede] 9-Juna-196 1915
eshington, D C
(Stenotype Tape and Wa8te turned over
co che Commfctee for destruct ton)
WARD &
PAUL
410 FIRST STREET, $. E.
WASHINGTON, D C. 20003
(202) 544-6000
TOP SECPET
Uhpc
Lutv)
==================================================
Page 3
==================================================
Mda#
1
C 2 i 2 E n = @
1 PAGE
2 TESTIMONY_QE !
2
L Jamcs Angleton
4
6
6
8
9 "~
10
7'
11
1
12
1 13
14
15 2
16
18
{
19
3
20
1
2
m 22
11
23
1
24 8
25
ToP SECRET
HY
17
==================================================
Page 4
==================================================
TPSI
ine re
ah
EXECUTIVE SESSION
0
2
{
Thursday = June 19 , 1975
1 3
4
United states Senate ,
5
Committee to
Study Government
Select {
operationg with Respect Eo
Intelligence Actlvities ,
8
WaghIngton , D. C.
9
co notice , at 2:20 Pam . ,
The Commfttee met
10
John G Tower,
preslding.
S.123, The Capftol Senator
11 In Room Mathfas.
Tower (presLdlng) Baker
6
12 Present : Senators
Mfller, Staf f
Director; Frederick
Willfam
1 13 Also
Klrbow and David
Jr. ,
Chfef Coungel; Charles
14 A . 0 . Schwarz ,
Professlonal Staff Kembers_
15 Aaron ,
16
17
18
1
19
3
20
7
2 [
v 22
1
23
1
24 8
25
TOp SECRET
Pursuant
and
Present:
==================================================
Page 5
==================================================
Jop 5-RE
Tower. Mr Angleton, I underetand that you came
Senator
2 short notlce - And I appreciate your accommodating
on very 1
3 the Committee
YOu will have to be sworn 4
rise, pleage , ralbe your rlght hand?
would You 6
gwear that the testfmony You &re about
Do you solemnly
commfttee 10 the truth,
the whole truth and
7
co glve bcfore thig
8 nothIng but. the truth, help you God?
9 Mr . Angleton I do _
10 Senator Tower Coungel = You may Proceed
TESTIMONY OF JAMES ANGLETON
11
I would 1ike to first get your name and
1
12 Mr . Schwarz.
13 address on the record 1
James Angleton , Arlington, Virginfa
14 Mr . Angleton.
matters. You have a
Mr . Schwarz. Just some
procedural
15
?
Eo counsel you understand that?
16 rfght
Angleton. Yeg , I understand ft.
Mr .
time You want to stop to ob-
Mr Schwarz And - 1f at any
18
a rfght to do that _ And Jf you wish
1
19 tain counsel You have
i Constitutional rlghts have a rfght
20 to claim any of your
understand those things als0 do 1
21 to do that, you
Mr . Angleton . Yes , I understand them .
4 22
You were employed at the CIA for what
1
2*5 Mr Schwarz _
{
period of t [mc?
2 24
From
the bcglnning until Deccmber ,
Mr . Ang leton
25
TOP SECRET
H
and
80
17
You
You?
the
==================================================
Page 6
==================================================
TO04d4
1 end ot December .
1
2 Mr. Schwarz. 19747
{
3 Mr Angleton . 1974 _
And Kere
the Chfef of Counterintelligenc:
4 Nr , Schwarz _
5 the CIA for that perlod?
6 Mr . Angleton . I wag .
For that entire of time?
7 Mr. Schwarz.
Mr . Angleton _ No , from 1954
IC
Dponouble (o2 n2lnuom
10 th Israeli
Intelligence agencles?
Mr
Angleton That 19 correct.
11
brlefly gtate the cofinect Ion , If
1 Schwarz _ Can You
12
and the israell work ,
? between @4r
counter intellIgence
13
8 how dld you/heppen to have both
or even @ere generally ,
1
15 thoge Jobs?
bell , If I coila ask You some
clarffica-
Mr . Angletor
ourseves here In ters of
tion , are we addressdpg
iness , are we tryIng Eo take
meet Ing to the SzuidiBus
thls
1
uP
everything?
aPe hot golng to try to take up
i
Mr Schwarz Mo we
to take Up fcw things beyond the 1
everything Nes may try
Szulc businegs _ What wc are trying
anewcrg to You better
Kngleton . I can direct my 1 Mr
o4 morc where we are golng .
I
busTnes but i€
We arc golng to the Szulc
Mr . Schwarz
TOP SECRET
HW
you
at
Perlod
work
Put
NBR
or
==================================================
Page 7
==================================================
ToPIscRET
it would be helpful to have a few background Elrst
0
2 Senator Baker . If I may Bay 30 , 80 that Angleton
1
W not be taken bY surprise , there are one two thlngg chat 1
I would likc to discusg, The nature of tha ma terial would be
8 imflar 0 what You have already discu8ee with Rockefeller ,
having Eo 8 with the Oswald 8ftuatlon and other thlngg .
ton Well_ beg t with, I went Into OSS In
Mr _ Angre
in 1943 from the Infantry; And then Iwa8 4s9Lgned Eo an
1943 ,
embryonic counter nbelligene unft under General
immedlate wag James R Murphy , who had been
10 Donovan My
and obtafned law degree in General Donovan' $
11 a protegee
{
office. And he 1g a ctic attorney here in Nashington
12
And he wag Chfef -2 whfche was the counter intellgence _
13
And durlng chat a number of were together who
14
had an-
lexperience in the ubject. And that included
15 had never
3
such as jonnfe Oaks , who wjs the head of the edftorfal
16 people
of the Ne York Times and Ben Well and a tremendous
page
cross-secthon of American 1ffe.
18
training Intens]ve In 9 country and 2 And here was a
19
i to London . And the purpose of tha was Eo ab-
I was se" 20
experience, more important the break ing 1
21 th British
of Gelriian codes
4 22
breaking of the German codes , which 1s relevant to 1
23 The
1
was really done in England And by way E
activity ,
24 8
Germans wcre using 3_ recelver machfne ca
diigressfon , the
25
TOP SECRET
H# S9y age
'NGQ
to
L8
Put
17
and
sorb
==================================================
Page 8
==================================================
Io} 58:rC
Entgma , che blue prints of which were originally obtained by
2 a FRenchman . And I mIghc edd that the Frenchman never re-
3
1 3 cefved &red4t for It. And yet that perhaps Wag the mogt
8Ingle Impoztant breakthrough of the entfre war And he had
5 obtafned ft aboue eftht to nne or ten yearesprlor eo che out-
6 break of war , when_ wa9 non-operatlve XAnd he had the
presclence to know that the systems could only be one thing ,
chat It would be operat Nve_ n 4 time Qf war_
I give thfo dfgresslons 8+mp} to polnt out that the
fruits of chat breakthrough wouia ffrgt 9o to the milftary
10
the military operatlong And tne counter Intelllgence
11
1
use of ft would be the bobeom of the fst of prlorftles , In
12
1 13 one sense.
Dut it would mean that a compromige Ethe ma terfal
14
in fashfon to the Germang would destroy theimfltary
15 any
:
uses . And during the war or when the Germans wcn Into the
16
they brought ft up Erom 10 percent recovery to @pout
17 war,
18 100 perccn
7 belfeve ft was in the nelghhorhood of some 2 000
{ 19 Ande
3 jowa 1 mesgages from the German high command _ I know
20 ope
1
the Ba tle of Tobruk was fought on six intercepts .
21
So our job wag Lo make use of the counter Intelligence
22
of play back German agents to their high
3 23 the purpose
1
And this was an elaborate deception . And when the
'ommand
war ended I would say that 99 percent o€ all reportlng
TOP SECRET
H# 50955 DocId:32423393 Page
US
and
rat
Ing
8
agents
==================================================
Page 9
==================================================
Tor FcrF
that the Germans had were under Our control And In fac
6
2 the German hlerarchy trled to escape tolihe
1 when many
1 5 west uader allases thefr only of contact for most
4 documenta on and money was to our agent under control
5 And It Wja 6a led the Safe Maven program
London was In;a gense a staging rea with full accesg
6 So
Brftigh, or the frults of British acdivlty, golng back
to
thefr entfre igtory . And Itrwas the advance head-
8 through
9 quarterg for General Donovan , MZ Murphy _
sent Eo Ialy In 1943 _ And I took over the
10 I was then
for Itar the OSs AFIIQ , Allfed Forces
11 counter intelligence
12 Ileadquartcrs .
I becalie the Chlief of 0Ss Italy. And
1 13 Subseguently
work then becare more broad in terms of
I want to say that my
and all ther other branches OSS And I re-estab-
:
15 espionage
gervices And I brought the
16 1ished the counter; ntelligence
existence particularly the man #ho
17 French back into
red the code and who worked It for many
18 orfginally acgui
thls time it was shifted to the Sauudi hloc . 1
19 Years . And oy
1 in 1947 or 194 8 and came back _ and was
I lc Italy 20 |
discharge; and went into the Agency immediately And during
21
od I was in the Agency _ of course , I had hoth
7 22 the pe gjf
distance operations , and counter intelligence 1
23 ope tions , long
1
some sabotage , black
propaganda , Infltratlon.
24 9
€frst
overnight operatlon that thcre
And probably thc
25
TOP SECRET
of
Polnt
Nr
and
14
agent
ra
==================================================
Page 10
==================================================
1K); 54R44
whlch was known 48 Plan llope , whlch 18 BImply puttlng chg
Italfang in an airplane and havIng them fly over to
1 3 Roumanfan border and make very tive photographg of the
4 whale region
5 Ad I was Bent back Eo the Afr Force then I had
code operablong embasgy penetratlong _ andejeo on ,
So , In bense the reguocitatlon che Italfan Bervice ,
Army and Navy AfreForce and the Mineter of the Interior,
wa8 American rehabflftatfon _ And am not gofng to go Into
the detafls of the polftleal 8 Leuatfon There was the
10
civfl war In Greece and the; Bevfval of thc internatlonal
11
1 nrfgade and Jn fact the Sojlets Rad built uP, when they were
12
not fighting the war , inatthe post-was perlod, aggasginatfons ,
1 13
14 and ingtabilfty_
And throughowf this we had very close supervision Erom
15
:
Mr . Murphy and Genera l Donovan - And we had SRecial interest
16
in the Vatican 'and what wag happening In Berlimbehind the
17
18 Curtain.
1 And he then acting Secretary of State for the Vatfcan,
19
8
Montinf who 1s the present Pope And S0 there was Mu
20
channels and General Donovan, with Moatt ini
1
21 to do hrough our
who is now the Pope one of the hasic problems
22 the Dope ,
did not the cold war, it came to uS 1
23 the cold war.
{
with the Germans as we broke down the
we worked
24
tion we began to find that we were not getting the
25
'oppos i
TOp SECRET
HW
Prlmf
UY ,
buy We
and
==================================================
Page 11
==================================================
{EdRET;
Germane we wore
getting the Sovlete.
But the penetrationg and the operatlons whfch Ten
5 during the military phase began to take On 8 charadteer of
hefr own in the clvflian phase In the very long; term Sovlet
5 objectlveg agalnst the U.S, Jn particular, Gna agalnet the
allleb
And then I got Into a1l ffelds 8f/abor gubverslon,
fllegal {mmlgrants and then revolutalon . I wag In Greece .
And our penetraelons at that perlod were fafrly high level and F
10 sophisticated, bedakge of the/reactfon to Stalfn.
And a8 the Sovlet troops occupled new terrtories , It
11
1
was faced with these anblguftles , the defectors comIng
12
over to u9 at very high Jevelg . 1 13
And In the course of Ichis , of course was the Israelf
14
Technically we were 8+f1] a part of AFHQ , which
15 immigration 3
was a combined ahd Allied Headguarters . And the Britfsh desires
16
were that our C tivftles be directed In supporting thelr
17
In the Middle East, and , cherefore, to
18
respongibflAtles
1
19 vent the Mm igration _
3
I think the only policy cable eha was ever re-
20 1
ccived during that perod was one we sent Eo Murphy , and
2]
General Donovan to che President _ Tha
4 22 through
exercLsed our influences on the Italfans to 1
23 was where we
1
prevent Lmmigration And they addressed themselves this
2
~
and they came back with an ambigul- but It leaned
Issue ,
5
ToP SECRET
4A
NkR
pre-
ty,
==================================================
Page 12
==================================================
TORSEcRE
toward the general proposltlon that wo Bhould not
2 gcourage the Brlelsh nor hurt the Brftleh dfrectiy but
3 we @hould not interfere wfth the Itallans to bupport the
4 BrieGA posftfon =
5 Andt3so MY deallngs were with Admfral Maugerla , who
had been Chdae of the Italian Naval Intelligence bue was
then the Commanelng Admfral of the Tufarfan Fleet generally
8 south e where a ]1 these 1llegal imigrants collected and were
sent down [
10 And then they blew' 0 the Irgum, and hlew up the Britlsh
In Rome who were MY opposite numhers . And che man
11 embassy
1
12 with whom we had set up 5 the? ftalfan Intelligence through
the rest of the Israc ls m # we had Bhe members of thc 11 13
c
and then we shad the dilemma n a9 to whether we
14 group,
turned them ove to the British authorities and 80 on ,
15
:
And we were In a position to make decislon8 one way or
16
And eventually we came down on che Is Ide of re-
17 the other
18 leas ing them _
1
And there is 50 much more oE it. I am trying to keep
19
8
the hread of it. 20 L
Mr schwarz. So You developed some kind of a relitlon -
21
a friendly relatlonshlp , with persons connececd
5 22 00.
Shlp , perhaps
1
with the new State of Israel or thc hoped-for state of
1
Israeli back In the 1940 ' s?
274 9
Mr Ang leton That Is right _
25
TOp SECRET
HW Jiyjy 93 Page
JURk
aga
23
==================================================
Page 13
==================================================
IOPBcR
10
Mr Schwarz. And Wa? there any other sfgnlflcane eason
the Ibraelf account, If that 18 the rlghe ex-
why You kept
1 5 a9lon?
There wasn t one after I le there
4
Angleton .
5 nor wab Jehere onc here In Iashington _
other 9 ide of the Igraclf probillem was that You
6 Dut
Erom the Sovlet Unfon And you had the
had thousands m Ing
Sovfets making u3ew9f the Imigratlor the purpose of
Lr Jnto the Nes; and breakIng down al 1
sending 1llegal
control , Ldentificationg and 80 on .
10 the travel
both
Geeurity problem &nd 8 tical
And S0 there wag 11
men maprfed I might say , the head of 1
12 problem _ And one of My
Htaiy , the_underground So I had
13
the Zionist movement In 1
connection to this man Me Was very mportant=
14 a
coming back to Wlashington I
Nas Speclal Asgistant
So , 15
:
Colonal Donald Galloway who was head f the
16 to
Jand covered the world, on a ides of
17
clandestine sld8
18 clandestine SEivity _
I wag Chfef of Operations for Es - 1
19
And /subsequently
8
Plonage 20
a
special operational unit; and was L
21 nd in 1954 I
head of the counter intelligence _
22 4 beginning In 1954 and lasting
1 Mr . Schwarz. In the
23_
1 1974 when you left the Agency , did you have any
untfl
8
the wrong way to say it
19 Igrael f account
5
relationshfp
TOP SECRET
H awe
Mr
JUKR;
Gor
agents
Polf
had
mad
perfod
the
==================================================
Page 14
==================================================
ORISEcREL
Mr _ Angleton. It 18 all right. It 18 88 goode0G ny
2 Obher .
3 Mr . Schwarz . Did You have any relatfonshfp a€h the
4 Isra9l account?
5 Mia gleton. No That began In 1951_ HFhere was no
6 relatfonshAp between the Agency and the I8raeit intellfgence.
7 Mr . Schwabz You mean at all or lor to 1951 _
8 Nr . Angleted There wagn t any Erom 1947 #t 44 1946 on .
9 Mr . Schwarz. Then It began 4n31951 And all
to establfsnd and not a lot of time with ft,
10 I am trying
1s , do You have any relataonsh with Igrael Israell intelli-
11
{
or the Igraelf accoung on behalf of the Agency between
12 gence ,
1 13 1951 and 1974 _
8
It a9 regonstituted In 1951. And I was thel
14 Mr Angleton .
7r/ },
negotlator of the arrangement_ The 'Mayor of Jerusalem, Pete
:
15
Kollek , was at thecather end of the negoelatlon. He was
16
statfoned In Nas) ngton . But during the Jexish Agency perlod
17
he was head the intellfgence in Turkey , during the war and
18
1
19 prlor .
8
Mr jI)ler _ How was
that agreement negotfate
20 1
M Angleton . Ie was negotiated by f inding waa
21
dis we have In common . It wag reviewed Admiral Killenkeetter
22
1
who then Director . And he to be succeeded by Genera
23
ter Bedell Smfth. And the decision was made during the
24
that Bedell Smi Kas to take over , and Allen Dulles retur
war 25
TOP SECRET
H
USR
Ipend
by
5
was Ma s
th
==================================================
Page 15
==================================================
TO? sica1
actfvfty, that WO would go ahead and re-establ
to thle
1
And after 8
lot of bureaucratic problens they
relationshfp
1 5 'ave me the account.
What wS the nature of the 3r angement that
4 Mr . Mfller.
5 was reed upon between the Ewo gervices?
mos t 8 implistlc ermb they were Jn-
6
Angleton. In
work wfth Uem againgt the Arabs_
formed we would not
Id
wieh hem on
(Soviet Intelligence
8 that we Wou
and eommunlgm where It existed =
Sovfet bloc Yntellgence
which I take lt was
Mr , Schwarz Did thaz agreement
10
did It remaln In effect throughout
11 more flexible tha
1 the perlod of your fervice wfth the Agency?
12
Mr Anglet? Moze: or less . 1 13
Jn the form of a
Mr , Mille Was
thfg egreement
14 :
15 paper?
Paper
andtoperations,digcussion _
16 Mr (Kngleton.
And under whose atherfty Kas the agree-
Mfller
17
18 men Iade?
Under the authority "tthe Director of
2 Mr Angleton.
Prime Minister 8f #srael on
3 'entral Intelligence , and the
20 1
the other side _
And thfs involved the exchange reseurces
Mr Miller.
W 2 6
1
23 of both countrles?
resources i9 not
Mr
Angleton The term
24
thefr own people . It was gving
correct_
Everything except
25
TOP SECRET
HM JyJJ 1j page 1J
NSRs
and
work
0
19
of
quite
==================================================
Page 16
==================================================
Tor SEcRE
13
and 84gnal8, communicatlone Intellfgence , and 11
up paper8
the other products of Intelligence actlon =
1
7 Mr . Mfller. So the Drector of Centra l Intelligence wa8
4 8ware of the agreement _ Ha8 the President?
The PresIdent Kas aware It= And the
5 MT Angleton.
wa3 che brother of the/Deputy Chlef of the
Secretary state
CIA , and eventually wag very Involve
Mr Mfler Where 18 8 record 0 thfs agreement kept,
c `
9 89 an Ingtrument the U.S . ?
The Jnterna paperg would be In the Agency
10 Mr Angleton.
of thedetter: from Ben Gurion to the
11 The letters , coples
Secreta of State I aggume are 9tfll Jn 1
12 President to the
I dealt Wfthbther departments In connection
1 13 the Agency .
with Africa, and 80 on
inderdeve [ @ped areag
14
as to whethe there Kas 4
repregenta ~
15 If You are speaking
:
tive treaty whfch Xas cleared and wanted these
16
don ' t think there were 8 clearanceg
17 things cleared
18 obtalned from the Hill_
1
Mr Midler . Was It regarded a$
obligatlon
19
3 from the U.S _ to Israel on certain matters
20 commftment
When You use the word U.S_ while You 1
2 [
Angleton .
officers and a]l chat , there was
may e t as contracting
22
to writing And it 19 a custom of 1
23 Vle
1ttle reduced
: Intelligence_supersedes writing And
telligence that
24 8
dfrectors to my knowledge that
there have been very fex
TOP SECRET
@E
KRK
much
or
peopie
an
4
would
==================================================
Page 17
==================================================
TOPSECRET
thelr pen Eo hand to 8Ign agreement to boma unds
0
etandlng It 18 babed on 8 ffduclary relatlonshfp enazcommon
{
understandng_
So , these were a11 understandings thae were
geneated by events . WE had the arrest of che/nfne doctore ,
5
and the pogrom In Russfa . And obvlouely You didn c go through
of bureaucracy , It we9 there for everyone to gee
a lot
And It had a dfrest impact on the guestlon of Immigratlon of
everyeniing else that goe8 a long wfth It. And
agents ,
[
10 I think that characterfzes any operation.
Mr . Mfller. How was ppossible for gucceeding dlrectors
11
12 of the intellfgence agenc lerstand what the
were betweens 'n thia case the Israelf Intelligence
1 13
agreements
gervice and the U.S_ Ktelllgence: Service?
C, 14
Nery 8 Imple _ They Igaw the productlon to
15 Mr Angleton {
begin with. And Ehey met With drectors_ the head of
16
Israelf intel ligence And they met wIth Abassadors and
17
ministerg And they were very much Involvedk-
18
Mr_ Schwarz Just one more background guestlon and 1
19
8
then we: 111 curn to the Princlple subject
20
{ollowing through on the subject of Igrael 0 your L
2]
19 there any connection between Yom de -
departure in 1974 , v 22
of Israel? And f€ there 19 wha 1
23
Parture handl_
1 the connection?
2
Nell , I think I have said ft a 1 1 to the
Mr _ Ang leton .
25
TOp SECRET
H Jv,
en put
URc
and
good
eund
Prime
ing and
==================================================
Page 18
==================================================
BicRL
0 # I don tbow how Mleely . You can &lwaye
commiselou
2 dlfferent Informatlon Erom dffferent people. But colly
would 14ke to glve him the benesCsof che
3 Celd them , 80 I
over a
perlod of tlme colby Kho
Jo
48 not my
4 dodbt on It_ But
profeggLonally Or Jn any other and In My
5 cuP 02 GCea
slde of 1ffe Dr . Schlesinger ,
6 vfew 10 on the negatfve
fense, gafd that olby wa; the only other
7 before he wen De
Haterc.a So you have certain pereona Kho
8 Pergen on
And Lnere Vas ehe neqative agpect of
9 were promfnent -
and Inferlorg reporting on buperLors , untfl
10 gelf-Inspection,
12 they came_through the 8na
Mof this there was tlme when
12 And in the course
Inktatal contrast to SchlesInger
1 13 he assumed the authority ,
"the Israell accouQ 88 Bome -
14 he began to regard
the windows ana let the afr Jn.
thing where we had to open
6
15
such as , we must helprot Menry and a few
16 And he phrages
17 other thlngs
position was that It was a
polfticalkelatonship,
18
or ghould ot be boundo to using
1
Chat we were not bound_
19
5 tactical ventures when we
had relatlonglips
20 thex Agency on
1
2}
hhich had strategic implications_
rembmer that there are still three
1 2 But one must
Union And the relationghlp 19 c
1 million Jews In the Soviet
do it with hlgh
level agencies who Hogl
only place where you
for money . So it 18 unlque.
for ideology and do not
25
TOP SECRET
Jvjy page 18
nkk
got
DIt
and
used
and
1
work
==================================================
Page 19
==================================================
@P ScRE
And my Becond polnt Hab that everything 8hould run
0
the groundg of need-to-know and should not go Int6 the Arab
On
1 DivisJon until there was peace in che area There 0a8 no
Identity of Interest or fundamental Interest bellween Igraelfg
5 and an example 18 500 Polsh Intelligence of ficere who were
6 Jewfeh who immigrated Eo Israel _ They knev more about Polfsh
Intelligence than the Poleg . And the Soffets had worked with
che Poles Jn cne West , and trained them Jn Moscow, where You
had che cohes Lon 127 bloc Bervlce8/worklng together through
thelr Own congre8g party apparatug Into 8 collective wich
10
11 Mogcow
1
And most important 0u2 Sob was to preserve the inte-
12
of the ImmigratlonsErom th bloc because the problem
8 13 grity
0
of escape to Israel R0 relfgloug- problen , Je 1s not
14
problem There not a prime minister who
1
15
polftical
the~day 1f he did not Along wfth the Idea of
16 survive
the return. 17
And Cherefore there 18 a certain Kind parallelfsm ,
18
between handllng the communicatlons intelligence 1
19 you migh 3ay ,
i
the war and where a low prlority makes usesof it and
20 during
1
endanger9 the whole wfch the question of immigra C1o
21
wherer the fruits of that immigration come to this goVefnment .
22
1
23 (Recess 1
{
Tower . Will You 9o ahead and resume the quest
Senator
2 2
215 Ing?
~62 TOP SECRET
J age
4
could
988
would
of
;
Ton -
==================================================
Page 20
==================================================
TOP SECRET
Mr . Schwarz. You were Jn the middle of an anbwer
0
2 Belleve 1
5 Mr Angleton What I am trylng to gay 19 thar Mmf -
1 gratlon 5 a source of very high level nforma efon Jt
5 [8 very comparable wlth Its problemg 43 comud catlons Intellgend
6 during the wa hen che lfveg of men were Zinvolved Jn troop
movements .
And therefor che Idea of oeeh Ing uP the doorg and
th4ngg- and So on , to seemed kabsolutely contrary to the
10 spirft, and what had beencqolngion for 22 Years _
And durfng that time we
had obtafned for example , by
11
1
way of production, Khrushehev 5 ecret speech whfch
12
tically created revolutians in Hungar and Poland_
c
1 13
I was just s imRly retterating thaeRroblem of the Immf -
14
gration. Thfs Idea f opening the doors ano letting the lght
1
15
in, and breaking Own compartmentation and bre king down
16
the need to knox would inevitably in Jeopara the Immf
17
1fehe Soviets should learn the extent of Juhe ac-
18
gration ;
2
19
tivities
8
Now the productlon ran from every thing , such 89 he
20
1
secret speech of Khrushchev S agalnst Stalin, it ran Int
21
the first hard informatlon on nuclear explosives , and ft
5 22
1
an into practlcally che whole gamut. And I think In 8 cer
r 2
1 tain period of time ft resulted in over 22 000 reports dea ] -
2
the Soviet bloc which were unfque And much of this
wfth
725
TOP SECRET
H# sujy J Page
and
NKa;
Prac-
Put
Ing
==================================================
Page 21
==================================================
SEdRET
10
cama {rom Bay , 80 englneer that had 0 factory, Or what ot
0
1 In other wordg It had 8 very dlrect bearIng On Our
1 3 and our Own defense budget.
Now our own way of handling 1t Wab to Ealge
5 attributlon, reports , 80 that If the report wae Qver compro-
6 mIsed , Iould not compromibe the operatlons r the Lml -
7 gratfon. And therefore, that wab one of ache Isgueg ,
8 On the oeher Jegue wa9 that to Pofiticlze the Agency ,
9 a2 I Btated , On the tactical problemg , which are going to
10 be wich 03 for 0 long Ime
11 And to break down Che fIduclary relatfonshlp-- whlch 18
1
12 after a11 a persona ] buslne_ all the men I have had were
1
13 men who stayed In It and came ck to headquarterg and went bac}
c
14 to Tel Aviv , they went the Na Jonal Security Councll and 6
15 went back to Tal Aviv cetera , sma )1 group of men . It
16 was probably che mest economical operatton that has ever been
devised In the Government . I don thlnk there was more
17
18 than 10 people that were hfred In the game procesg,
1
19 I started from the south s1de with two ewish men who
3
worked ich me during the war, He sent them ordinary
20 1
21
peopHe under cover to egtablish the working hours things ,
brought over six others and put them through sone months
4 22
1
23 training , outside of the gtructure _
And one of them rose to be Deputy Chief of the Service
Dut ft 19 a part of che whole fiduclary business.
TOP SECRET
HF Juyo
gIve
UUGRf
et
a9
and:
==================================================
Page 22
==================================================
TORSCRE
19
For example , we had certain polftlcal overtones Khere
0
we were used Jn an afffrmatlve way under President Ef Genhower
1
5 hexwanted to make a real attempt Eo gee If there Could ever
4 be Reace In the Middle East. And with Alan Dulies , hls
5 brothersy and myself , and Kermit Roogevelt , we UP 8 plan
6 to bringing In Robert B . Andergon , who had been Assfetant
Secretary of ehe Defense
And he was 0 ccredited a8 spec4as emfs8ary from che
Pres Ident _ And I handled hfs base Igrael, which #as gecret ,
10 black , a9 we call ther to seef Ben Gurfon 3 @ and Shaf fetz was
11 the Forelgn Minlster an Kolek , who wag In the Prime Minis-
1
12 ter' 8 office_ and later Mayor
0
1 13 And we took him back Rome And Kermit Roosevelt
0
14 would take him over gee Nagber JAnd chls went on back 6
15 and forth on many trips , until the concluslons were reached
16 that there could be any peace
17 But thoge /types of initlatfves coutd be done without
18 publicizing 0 without destroying Ic_
1
Mr Schwarz . In any event, gome dispute connection
19
i
with
these Israell matters underlay your dispute kith Mr
20 1
2] Colby Vhich underlay your leaving the Agency?
Mr _ Ang leton . Yes , e of fered me jobs or wha?e not _
22
these are matters of principle , as far as I am conqerned
{ 23
Mr . Miller. Mr . Angleton described che fiduciar
2 24
relatlonship . Were there points along the way where the U . S
25
TOP SECRET
H suyuv
Put
nA
to
4
You
==================================================
Page 23
==================================================
TOP SECRET
Intereste and the interests of Ibrael were In confllct?
0
Mr Ang leton_ We never got Into that. of courbe You L
1 only had to read the paper every to 8e8 that
4 Mr MIfler But how did they come up 7 bay they
5 dfdnt come up at a11?
Angleton _ of courge, they came UP There
wasn € a7ything secrec about
Mr Miller . But what exampleg can You give?
Mr Angreton The recent v slt of Rabun 1g 8 clagsfc
7
10 cage. The So~ cailed reaggessmer of che Middle Eagt. The
11 Times has bettertaccounts 0 than the Agency hag .
1
12 Miller mean your level
8 13 Mr Angleton . t quite the thrust of Your
0 :
c 14 question .
Mr . Miller _ 'Wbat I at gaying 1s that You had an unusually
15
{
16 close relationsh
Mr . Angleton It wag not Vnusual I have had It
17
with many eniefs of services In 8 0 d fEferent countries , 890
19
1
It Is ne any more unusual than a lot others The French-
19
a
man who got the code is closer to me thap %the
20 {
21 Israelis are 1
Mr . Miller. Similar to the relationsh
22
Mr . Angleton = I don c 1ike the word unusual because to
me it 1s usual
Mr . Mfller . De lete that I€ your working relatfohghip
25
TOP SECRET
HA Pane
day
You
feg
ft
Mr
get
==================================================
Page 24
==================================================
To Secra
wlch the Ibraell8, where You had confllct o2 U.S. Intesogts 0
1 Mr _ Angleton . GIve mo an example of what YOW fegard
1
a9_ a confllct.
4 Mr . Mffler. Can you
thint
of any?
5 Mr Angleton You are the one who 18 Peging It. I think
6 lot @L hege thingg are Illusfon8 , But wnat would you regard
7 89 8 conf1 36 I don t chlnk there 19 {conflict regarding
8 the Sovlet Unton or the balance of Powor. I don'€ think there
{8 any questlon my vlew
10 Senator Mathtas I auggest Suez 83 a confllct that
11 might have poged
{
12 Mr _ Angleton. Whlsbe Sue z are we talking about?
1 13 Senator Mathfas . Tha Ggraelf-Brftfeh-French attack on Sue
14 Mr Angleton. Thedu.S vernment posftion was that we
15 had no comitment? wieh Israel anc we had no binding creatieg.
:
16 Ne had two allleg {Chat had just fough a war Kich u9 , and
17 both of Khom begrayed uS And Eden" 8 nead wene with ft. And cha
18 19 very cleasgand well documented_ The Toraeli9 were not
2
19 blamed because we didn t have any agreemen th them
c
20 had vlolated no agreements _ The Britlsh had eements
1
21 The B ish trfed to 49 a deceptlon plan_ should they
ha naval vesgels in the Mediterranean , and they were there
K 22
1
23 gor 3 dffferent purpose .
{
Mr Kirbow Let me sce if I can make 4 pofnt on jus
2 24
common sense level 28
TOp SECRET
HI 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 20
JUKr
May
chey
glve
==================================================
Page 25
==================================================
Tc3A
22
Senator Mathlas . Let Me follou thle Suez queitlom
1
! Mlttle more closely .
1
That 18 0 polnt at whlch the U.S , Pollcy dEfered from
4 thespolicy whlch was adopted by Brltiah and Erance and Israel?
5 Mc Angleton _ Correct.
6 Senator Mathlas . And would 8 sltuscion of that bort con-
7 front You Mith dffffculties In Your operations becauge
8 Mr . Angketon.There have always been crfses wfth them .
9 Senator thlag_ how do You rebolve a crfel8 of
10 that kind?
11 Mr Angleton You don gee the fellow for 4 fex
{
12 days .
1 13 Mr . Mfller. I see
14 So your
thodywas cordeal Mith chem on those matterb
15 Mr . Angletone A_ total neytrality of Interest. :
16 Mr Schwarz . Could we turnsto the gubject of atonic
17 technology?
Mr SKirbow Excuse me I think for the record we should
18
1
make 16 Clear , I think Mr Angleton has had an intervlew
19
3
with_ghe staff , and he has been made aware Chat a Witness
20 1
tesEified here under oath as to certain matters 'a nd that that
21
1 22 03 the approach that we are going to take now
1
23 Ig that clear?
{
Mr Schwarz. I want to ask the quegtion generally
: 2
first and then come to the other test Imony .
25
TOP SECRET
HY 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 25
Nk
And
me
==================================================
Page 26
==================================================
31una
Mr . Angleton has tha Central Intellfgence Agency cely
1
or Indirectly transferred any atomle technology or knoxebov to
3 Oerael?
4 Mr . Angleton . From my knowledge, ehe answer an abgo-
5 luto no That would be one of those grounds that Mr_ MIller
wad reserring where the Agency , Jn the pergon of
Mr John McCone had Bome of the sharpest cordg probably In the
8 hfetory of ebe relatlonghfp .
Mr. Schwaez You mentloned those at lunch, and you might
10 Just Put that: on {the record .
11 Mr . Angleton want to stge that to my knowledge the
1
12 Igraelfs thenselves never raleed the questfon of thelr atomic
J1 13 capabllfty or thefr acom fterests , with one or
14 two small exception8 = whidh wag where there had been somebody
who had been
PGed
Erom {he were he ever to hls visa
{
15
to come back and attena some meet gomething on thae
16
17 level _
Mr . Schwarz I went to make Suge chat I have asked
18
2
19
the questionfbroadly enough.
9
Did Che Agency take any ateps to make aflable
20 1
2 1 to the rsraelis any personnel who had knowledge about atomic
4 22 matters .
1
23 Mr . Angleton = None whatsoever-_
1
Mr . Schwarz And specifcally with respect Lo man
9 24
let' 8 go off the record Eor 8 minute_
TOp SECRET
HY Jpvy
NBR
:o,
get
Jng,
==================================================
Page 27
==================================================
Tor Steru
(Off the record , ) 0
1 Schwarz. Back on the record
1
Do You know 8 Bclentlst called Dr . MIlfred Mann?
4 Mr . Angleton. I
5 Mr Schwarz. Does he have any knowledge of 0 tomic matterg
6 leton Ye8 . He wab one of tha orginators.
Schwarz . To your knowledge Mab he ever put In con
tact wfth eny Israelf pereon dfrect or Indlrectly?
9 Mr Angleton Not to my knoiiedge_ never
10 Schwaz Do you knowg Journallst called Tad Sgulc?
11 Mr . Angleton I do _
1
12 Mr . Schwarz.- d You meet with him 8ometime thfs Year?
1
13 Mra Angleton _ In)March.
C' 14 Mr Schwarz Where did You meet hlm?
15 Mr _ Angleton c the house of Ben Wellg .
:
16 Mr Schwarz And did the Yahree of You then 9o for dlnner
17 some place?
18 Mr . Ang leton . That 19 correct
1
19 Mce Schwarz_ At that meetlng did Ye4 discuss
8
20 Angleton. We went as Sculz 8 gues gomewhere Eo 1
21 dlnner _
i 22 Schwarz. At that meeting did he ralse Witah You the
1
23 subfect of the transfer of atomic tcchnology from the
{
to Israel? 8
25 Mr Ang leton. Yes
TOP SECRET
H# 93 paje
Mr
do.
Ang NR
Mr .
Mr
==================================================
Page 28
==================================================
TOPASERET
2
Mr _ Schwarz . Nha t did he Bay to You? 6
Mr . Angleton. prefaced hfe remarka by OE tha
1 5 09 Was not a professlona l scfentist, but he Wa9 Je and
80 Fap his good frfend Hersh. And they had bome @Grange ESP
5 working whfch one sald the other , have Noj heard Phat I
6 have heard and the other one safd, I thins may have heard
Khat You heard _ And then thl8 thing Ment back and forth,
and then It f[na devolved one 8a [d did It have anything
Eo do wIth Angleton and the other one Bafd Yeg and It went
10 on to where they dfscovere: tha each had had beparate bourceg
11 that I had been Inscrumental acgufring Plutonfum for the
12 Israelg , and a3 a follow-UP the Israelfg on thefr
1P 8 1
13 know-how by sending Dr . Mann Lo Israel clandestinely . And they
c 14 both had thefr storfeg and they had gentleman 9 agreement =
15 And the matterl-Va s publfshed without notlfying the
:
16 other.
17 Schwa And what did you say in 88 ponse?
18 Mr . Ang lleton . My responge to him wa8, Kas wrong. But
1
19 he had not Edentified the scfentise. So , I asked im
1
20 gscharz. When You say i€ Wa9 wrong 1
21 Ang leton. His statement was wrong
22 Mr Schwarz. So you denied the story that atomic
1
23 teehnology had been transferred to Israel?
1
24 Mr . Ang leton . I sa id , it is wrong.
9
Mr Schwarz. I Just want Eo make sure what ft 19.
TOP SECRET
H# paye 0
L They Ing
to
NRK
have
help
Mr .
Mr
It
==================================================
Page 29
==================================================
TOP SEcRT
26
doeg constftute 8 denfal 0
1 Mr . Angleton . HIs atory wab wrong .
1
Senator Baker. Let me agk You ; Mr . Angleton,
understand by that thae you mean every materal a@pect of
5 che story Wa8 wrong and Incorrect?
6 Mr _ @ngleton . I dfdn't mean qufte thal I Va8 more In-
terested In the fact that , one, he knew Szulc 0 4 I am sorry
that I knew Merbi2 and that Mergh od hlm that hie bource
was the man who gave hlm the December 22 article, and whether
10 he "had been set uP"
11 Senator Baker . Wha December 227
1
12 Mr Angleton That @he time kicked off the
i 13 entire furor the Pas esplonage thlng _
14 Senator Baker; Agafnst American cltlzens?
15 Mr Angletom Yes .
16 Senator Baker_ Did they do that once?
17 Mr _ Angleeton No because nelther Biac losed thelr Inde-
18 pendent gources to che other
1
19 Senator Baker _ The point I am trylng to &larffy for my
20 own Purposes is that the conversation you Just related you said 7
21 was wrong
22 Do I understand you to mean that every materfal aspect
1
23 of that statement was wrong?
2 Mr _ Angleton Ycs . But I didn t know my motfves on
25 lot of questlons that I had with him. Because thl8 Was the
TOP SECRET
HR Jvyjy J #age
NGA
they
on
3
3 1
==================================================
Page 30
==================================================
TOPI;CRE
1 ffrst live .human belng I Baw that had actually allegedly 0
1 heard from Hergh . And he thought had been set up
L
5 @nd that was the blggest agony In the Agency _
4 Senator Daker = And the perbon who Bet hlm 4=
5 Angleton _ Hersh told him , according 0 Szulc , that
6 he wa9 gcaned of the story , becaube thfa wdBw/hfe bource on the
7 December 22 Jcle. And therefore he wondered aloud whether
8 he had been set
9 Senator Bake Did he say whoatad been the bource of the
10 December 22 Informatl
11 Mr Angleton _ Abslu tekyyno_
1
12 Mr . Kirbow _ off the Becord _
1 13 (off the record . )
14 Mr _ Schwarz. I just want make gure, in your conversa-
15 tion with Mr. Szulc as opposed to Your testimony here today
F
16 on the merits, didryou deny Mr . Szu that You or
17 the Agency had cilftated the transfer tomic technology
18 to Israel?
1
19 Mr . Angleton 1 denfed It. But the conversation drffted
8
20 rapidly , becauge Szulc was talking aboue a great agent 1
2 ] that he %ad In the `Agency . And he was bragg_ about Athe fact
22 thathe had more sources than Hergh had And then he Ja2 do
23 know Australia?
{
24 And I said _ yes , I know Australia 8
Does the word Sydney mean anything to me?
TOP SECRET
H# Juyv
they
UkR
to
very
ing
Yeu
==================================================
Page 31
==================================================
TOP SECRET
28
Yeg he word Sydney does mean bome thlng to Me 0
1 Do You know sho 18 blcycling In Indla?
1
5 And Isafd_ I am afrald I am not wfth You
1 And he sald, Sidney X. And Sidney X 19 one our most
5 ben8 Eeasve employees who retired and 19 blcyclf In Indla .
And glve thfs a9 an fflustratfon of the cat and mouse
business 0E thls whole evening
And he 30- d he got that Erom hfs Source
Now , that man 9 name 19 Sidney Cottlleb And he wa8 che
10 head our technl gervices tment , whlch meang thae
11 there 19 a crosg Plant in our business And the man
3
12 was bugg_ and Performfng a Np the hundredg of technfcal
8 13 services hag access , unfomeunately , to many of our operations
14 There 19 one juncture pomnt In the businesg where there
15 59 3 breakdown of compartmentatfony And for him to Indlcate
8
16 that he knew Gottliep and the sources: had been rafged in
17 my mind _ since 1 aas talking about a sclentist , plutonfum,
16 atomic energy nd a ]1 these matters , that hisigource mIght
1
19 be in our Technica l Services Division , which, he wag , he
8
20 would knok everythlng , or could get into everythlng
1
21 I didn't tell him that_
7 22 n fact , I expressed little or no Interest 1n source
1
23 otker than asking him a few questions , 19 he Jewish, ard this
# 24 chat and So on
Senator Baker . Could I ask 4 question at this po
TOP SECRET
H
NR
of depaE ca
whe
Ing
Athat
Yoc
==================================================
Page 32
==================================================
TOP SEcRE
29
Mr Angleton. Surely . 1
1 Senator Baker. What are relating to me seem? Imply
1
ha & Szulc 9 information wag very, very good on senghl 've In-
foriation?
5 Angleton. No That Informatlon, aLr iould have
been unc Assffed _
Senator Baker . I am speakIng more 0 'the SIdney X Gottlfed
relatfonshfp.
9 Mr . Angletefi But he only safd t he was bicycling
10 In Indfa. But che ma ie went about do you know Australia,
11 do You know Sidney , wou chink Jehfs _ and B0 on
1
12 It was thac sort of thing
1 13 Senator Baker Do Yourthlnk he had a source in India?
14 Mr Angleton _ It afted to worry me , because he was 0
15 talklng plutonfum, whicn wag screntlfic Gottlfeb,
16 before he went to that whole department of hg, was transferred
17 to Carl Duckett_ And that 18 the reagon Gottlfeb left.
18 Senator Daker You mean he didn want to work for
2
19 Duckett?
20 Mr Kngleton _ That 1s part of It.
1
21 there are also questions pr inciple You take it
22 from: Jone director * m it fs ifeblocd and get it another
1 23 ector
6 24 Senator Baker Is this the Same Gottlieb who Kas
25 charge o€ processing the photographg that were taken Jn Dr
TOP SECRET
HW
You'
JUKk
ao
a
of
7
==================================================
Page 33
==================================================
TOP SECRET;
Fleldlng" 9 office? 8
1 2 Mr _ Ang leton Hle offfce would have been .
3 Senator Baker . Do You know of that 9 fcuation?
1 leton_ No except
5 Seqator Baker . Iet me agk You thls I will turn it
back to cotingel
Was therel any conversation in which Szulc or Hersh talked
to Colby about bhegematters? Did yousever any Impres8 on
that they were ng that Colbg was thefr source?
10 Mr Angleton The CKing that came uP 19 thac when
11 I sow Colby yesterday wh_ 19 the firgt time since
1
12 December he told me thag he had bought 3 theory of mine on
8
13 Szulc , but he did not W any misgivings on Hersh. Ile c
$
14 said that one year before he ha seen Hersh about the gubmarine 6
15 article , and tha Hersh been 3 Soviet agent , the Soviets
16 would not have pefmitted the operatlong take place.
1 7 And 1 toa him that he wag erroneoush that to use that
18 guide was slmply not to understand what ther game is a)) about .
8
19 Andi When Philby was stationed in Washingten he helped
8
20 the FBB n working on some comunicationg intelligence which
]
2 1 led the identification of Klaus Fuchs But in Spite of
M 22 Philby being a Soviet agent , the Soviets were prepared to let
~
; 23 6us Fuchs 9o down the draln rather than hurt Philby
2 Senator Baker . As an ultimate cover? 8
3
Mr . Angleton Precisely .
TOP SECRET
H# Miy Page 33
1
Ang
NRR
get
impe
only
Aco
5
==================================================
Page 34
==================================================
JOP SECRE
J1
0 He Wab 0 more valuable agent. If he had not been un
1 covered he would have been today Chfef of BrItfsh Intelligence .
1
In the case of George Blake, who Kag In the Brlah
Sxcret service , he gave the Soviets one Year advance che
5 ent e Plang of our so-called Tunnel of Love the
tunnel Ve bullt Jn Derlln Voo Dala very elaborate to tap 4ll of
7 the Sovfe mllitary lineg .
8 Now one Year Jn advance they took no preventive
9 action In order gave George Blake
10 Now what ha happened since December 22 co the U.S _
11 intelllgence communf in the ition that Hersh enjoys , with
1
12 the prestige and the impact 0 Ihe U.S _ public , it stands to
1 13 reason that you can't them to gfve any baby talk to what
14 che Sovfets would or would not do , when You See gome thing that ;
15 1s the objectlve from Che end oieAthe last war to the present,
16 and destroy the agen
17 Senator Baker Do You think Wersh 19 a Sovfet Agent?
16 Mr Angleton _ I am not saying tha he 1s a Sovlet
1
19 agent . To begin with, when I went back See Wells , who
20 was In counter intelligence with me in London diring the war, 1
2 1 I told hjm could not Szulc 5 article regarding Hersh , the
M 22 alleged; meetings and that had certain sources and the
1
23 introduction of Dr Mann 8 name and S0 on simply didn hold
{
2 24 waber and some thing was wrong
25 But Dr . Mann Is a suspect Sovfet agent , a friend of
TOP SECRET
HM
to i
Ukk
19,
Pos
get a8
to
3
buy
they
==================================================
Page 35
==================================================
TOBSLCRE
1
Burges8 , and a frfend of Phflby . And the home backgrouna
8
2 Chich 19 a factual thing , 19 only known to very 1
1 3 fec @gervIces . And for hlm to Introduce 4t 40t6 thg
4 sccnazdo gave It 8 talnt that Ifted It oue {ust 8Lmply
5 gossLp.
6 Ilow tould: he ever know the name Mann?
Senator Baker That 18 what I wadparfvlng at, 10 It
8 fafr co Jnfer Ezom that converga Ehat there wab an
9 Indicatfon that S20 c had 8 very bource withln the Agency
her that or the I look at Jt, I
10 Mr Angleton _
prepared to admlt, begauserof an artfcle he wrote, In the
11 am
1
12 cryptonym Easy Chalr in the Oyal Office of che whlte House.
Senator Baker . Tayyking Yabout the bugging sltuatlon? 0 13
Mr Angleton . That cryton Easy Chalr wab the most 9
14
sanctified word in Che Agency . And wha ft dealt Wlth was
15
{
It wag called EasyeChair for the 8 Ie reason that 1f che
16
Sovfets were blocked, people abroad were Moing Into thfs
17
18 house or thig @ffice.
1
19 Sena Baker . off the record.
8
(Of edthe record . )
20 1
Angleton _ But let me it this way .
21
said , I called Ben Wells Lo sce You , because wanted
4 22 e
1
a fe place in which to ralse all this stuff_
22
1
Mr Schwarz. This 19 Szulc?
24 8
Mr Angleton _ This 19 Szulc.
TOP SECRET
HY
0f%
Jsk
tfon
gaod
way
imp:
put
==================================================
Page 36
==================================================
ScRE
And In fact, I' thlnk they had been talklng bometIme ford
0
1 I arrfved _
1 3 And with Wells " background , the New York Times /@broad , nd
4 Szw 8 time abroad , apparently
6 Senator Tower . Excuge Me Nill You go bac Just 8 bit
here? You ralsed 8 question of how did Know the name oE
Mann and knaw about hfs agsoclatlon WIth Rhby and Burge8g .
Mr Ang legen . Yes.
Senator Tower You rafged the: Gestlon but did not ang-
7
10 wer It .
11 Ilow do you thlnk%he could have known It?
1
12 Mr Angleton . This 8 Ghet bocherg me , that he' 1s
1 13 efther unwitting , or has Gource who hag knowledge 1s
working for an
oppoglt }nc or ma hag 8 Source who 19 mfs_
c 14 16
chievously exploitiegskim by , who} be retfred_ and does
15
<
16 know some facts, therefore it 10 percent true and 90
17 percent false
I would assume hls EInanclal eftuatlon 10 Buch that he
18
1
19 1s very hungry _ I mean that 19 my general Gbservation,
9
thae he hav ing 2 rough time of savng 0 ve lucrative
20
1
21 contra with Penthouse for supplying X number articles
1 22 I m that 1s my general feeling _
1
Senator Tower Let S go back 0 moment You say Ehat he
23
1
could have come by knowledge the Mann-Burgess-Phf 1b
24 8
relationship chrough an external source?
TOP SECRET
Szul8
NSR
and
Anay
1g
and
of
==================================================
Page 37
==================================================
P SecrI
{
Mr Angleton. Ye? , 0fther Witting or unwitting_
0
1 2 Senator Tower The KBG knowa thle and , thereiore , Jt
1 3 gld have come dlrectly or Indirectly Erom that source?
4 Mr Angleton . That 19 right_
5 Senator Tower That 19 a posslbfllty
Mr Angleton . That 1g a possfbflfty And he hag bome
bra[ng about @he fact that he does have contacts he knows
the Roumanfan Ambassador better than anybody In Waghington,
and he knows the Poles , and he knowg 7thfs . And It on
10 and on
11 So , he 19 dealng Jth blo people who will be reporting
1
12 back to their headquarters detafled asguing he is
1 13 totally innocent , and glven his positlon in Washington ,
14 Szulc would be a norma ] ttig or unwitting channel for
15 them in disinformation for any other motfve €
16 So 83 to whether he 19 himge knowing Hhat he 19
17 dolng , whether he a dupe , 18 an outseanding questfon
18 But a man who goes and sociallzes Wier the black
1
19 Mr. Schrarz . Did Mr . Szulc ever work the Centra ]
8
20 Intelligenge/ Agency?
1
2 Mr #Angleton I don c know Ile may have fo some of
1 22 our people In the ffela
1
23 Mr Schwarz Did he ever provide services?
1
Mr Angleton. I don' t know
2 24
Mr Schwarz _ Have you heard that?
25
TOP SECRET
NGR
goes
and
for
€pr
==================================================
Page 38
==================================================
SdRET
J5
{ Mc Angleton . I have heard that, but I haven tlooked
1 the dossler for the lagt ten Yeers, He came to our actentlon
1
ba sfcally In connection with the leakg In ehe
Senator Tower . Will you go back to the Szule-Hells-
5 Angleton meeting?
Angleton Thfs basIcally the thling that began to
really d1sturb me Wos number one hlg comnent , 83 I safd beford
tha Hersh tola blm that the thlng that Feally bothered hlm
about thfs story Wa9 that Jt cane fromehe game bource who
10 hfm the 22nd Recember, without Identifying him , and the
1] fact that when he was ng through thls business that he had
1
12 the best gources the Agenc and that wag Sidney Gottlleb,
1 13 and here was a scientific ajlegation , Plutonfum and the
C 14 sclentist and all the rese of themi
15 And agaln, 1f hedid have a live gource In that
€
16 area , that meang he Gould have a lve Source across the board
17 When he abked me about mY succesaor told him that
18 I wa9 not prepaFed to respond to that, that every new man was
1
19 entitled tocone free shave
i
20 Andahe Bay8 , I know your successor And I din c think he 1
21 actual) mentloned the nane Dut In this article whlc has jus
4 22 come out he mentions him wich his biographlcal sketch
1
23 Senator Baker Who wag your successor?
1
9 24 Ang leton _ Goorge Kalar[s
I had never known hlm before.
TOP SECRET
Bay Pigs .
NGR
gave
9e4
in
Mr .
==================================================
Page 39
==================================================
TOP Ech
J6
0 So obvlously he
Wab talking to Me 0 8 bomebody dls;
1 affected from the Agency , et cetera. I mean that 10 Vlew my; 1
of why he was 4 11 this. Whereas my concerng Mere gufte
4 fferent than hlg
5 Mr Schwarz _ Do you think It 18 poseible becauge.
chose ferent concerns , that Your effort che story
did not across to Mr Szulc?
In othe words you are saying Yeu; had some concerns that
dealt wch the tentfst Involved that dealt with the
10 newspaper source , that dealt With Easy Chafr , that dealt with
11 the statement that maybe the December 1974 artfcle wa9 Inaccur-
12 ate And he pursued a]l thes imatters Wfth some vigor and in-
1
13 terest.
14 Do think It pos s46]e that becauge of that that
:
15 whatever denial You maqe of the ransfer of atomic parts of
16 thestory didn t ges across to Mr. Siulc?
17 Mr Angletar I think It 90 across to him_
18 Mr . Schwar z _ Can You recall Your Words to him that 1
19 denied the Iomic transEer?
8
20 Mr { Angleton _ My chief words to him said , do You 1
2 ] realfze what a thing 1fke thls Implies , and Kha 73 would
22 do Adepend on the media picks it uP, n des&Eey a] 1
1
23 ehe ef forts In the Middle East?
1
24 Mr _ Schwarz . But words like that are as consisten
with beingtrue a $ be false?
TOp SECRET
dolng
of
Ner deny
belng
1
You
No ,
wast
ing how ing
Ing
==================================================
Page 40
==================================================
TOP SECRET
8 Mr Angleton . were conelstent , but wegen't
1 stated Jn that faghfon _ were stated In the fashlon that
1
5 Mann 18 a perbon who ffts within the Phflby , cetera ,
1 comglex In 8 false story of thfs gort whfch come 5 to the
5 Brft) Sm who pull out a ffle on Mann , and the read down and
go back Into the fact o€ Mann 9 a88ocfation Ith
me Mann 8
as00c fatfon th Phflby , a]l thlg stuff my actions wfth the
8 Israelfg and that , regardless of Ma t the U.S . Government
tells the Brftigh the French , oneehe Canadfang_ or the
3
10 Australians , or che Zealande 8 , a 1 1 of whom have fundament
11 ally the basfc Informa would be a conffrmatlon to ther
1
12 based on very level et informatfon _ that the story was
1
13 true.
14 Senator Tower Let me deurgue just about three ques-
15 tions here .
:
16 Did Szulc speciflcally agk Youwhether or not , during the
17 early s ixties ssfonable ma terfal_ aong with nuclear
18 technology technologlcal as9fstance_ Way passed to the
1
19 Israelfs?
8
20 Dia he ask youto confirm or tha 1
2 ] leton_ I can t remember it with precii that
Y 22 typeyof precigion The story that he gave was 3 ver lucid_
1
23 aightforward story without any if' $ , and S and bu
{
9 2 Senator Twoer Did You deny only In part the Yidity
of the qucstion that he asked?
TOP SECRET
H# 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 40
They they
They
JRR
FNev
high
deny t?
Ang sely
va
==================================================
Page 41
==================================================
T6 5
1
In other wordg , 1f he agkedyou about the passage 0
1 2 both ffglonable materfal and technology , dld you deny hholly
1 3 05 In part that there had been 8 pasgage of ffsalonable
4 materka ) ?
5 Angleton No I denled hfs gtory would like to
kecp that hle 5 tory , gome thing he came an presented . And
then when he down Into the other thlngg- whfch had to
do wfeh technolog a1l I can say 19 chat anyone who follows
clogely the Nasser , and then later Sadat accusatlong against 3
10 CIA , ft 1s voluminous terms thelr spelling out the sophis
11 ticated gadgetry Ahich the d covered whfch came from
12 Centra l Intelllgence =
1 13 This 18 a thlng that has Qways concerned u9 because
14 Jn che last war we los and we 111 do thfs today , we
15 don t know the extenc of this we logt some the ingtallatidns
:
16 whfch we had pu n there
Mr Schwarz When You say we youemean the CIA?
17
18 Mr Angleton The CIA the Igrael Jost entfrely
9, ( ( 2
Mr Schwarz Ihen 'he say we Put in there You mean 19
i
20 the Ci in there?
1
Senator Baker . Nhat installations?
M 22 Mr Angleton The line oE sfght , electronics
1
Senator Baker. You are not talking about
23
1
Mr Angleton = I am talking about the signal intell Gnce
8
And there was some very sophlsticated gear that wag Put in
TOP SECRET
KJsR
3
of
put
21,
==================================================
Page 42
==================================================
PISECRET
39
8 L there . And I wane to complete thle becauge of Ehe fec
1 that most of the Information which
we galned from thg SAM' 9 ,
5 hich had a direct bearing on uslng B-52' 9 In Vlegnam wB
4 gatned through Israel. We could read a whole of the compu
5 teri 0g and 90 on of those SAM 8 & And therdeore we were Pre-
pared to g1 hlghly sophistlcated equlpment to Igrael to
work againsg that Russian businegg [nesder to tranbfer the
knowledge to Vzletnan .
5
I told Tehem , I 8afd, Yea
we have worked on questlons
10 we have always helped them Ou echnologlcally . And I think
11 I made the comment tha anye erece of gear we ever gave them , 1
12 that turned it to greater sophlsticated use
1
13 than we had , which was n 0 Ingtances_
14 And wouk cannibalfz and we would get the product _
:
15 But there was 30 that thig 19 clearcut, there wag
16 no attempt to le_ him on regarding the nuclear
one because
17 the nuclear one wag very clearly state to hm, that the Injec-
18 tfon of Mannyinto the story had a certaif} elgni EIcance of Its 1
19 Own
9
20 I think Wellg will bear me out very eiearly on this , 1
2 ] tha ehe injection of that could not be magic, Shad to come
1 22 [rom some body who is the intelligence service Amean that
1
23 element and if this story without the introduc
{ tlon o€ Mann
had bee mtold , It would be just another of the many rumors
And Senator , there Is 8ome thing I forgot , and I want
TOP SECRET
HI 6Wgjy
1
3
ve
So
they
many
they
in
==================================================
Page 43
==================================================
TOP SECRET
3
8 get back to It. After the 9Lx-Day War
the Sovfete sent t
1 2 barrage of propaganda In Arablc fto the Middle Eaet Erom
3 Asdlo Moscow that the CIA #m and then mentloned Biei 1 Harvey ,
4 who La 9 working for u9 , and whom I had put In touch wlth the
5 Israelle durlng the Cuban business had met on 0_ Bhp wich
Morrfg , he Chlef of the Brfelsh Intelllgerice , who had 8 back-
ground In tha War wich the Israelfg_ had met there and Pre-
Pared and carried out 211 the 8trategic Part of the SLx-Day
War. And thfg S 11 PFIS . And Mere
"
wab 8 tremendoue pike
10 of Soviet materlals
nevor got much Into our medfa , be-
E 11 cause It Is dfrected the ddle Cast In Arabfc , and whfch 1
12 obvlous ly
1
13 used Harveys Jnana Instead of my name because pro-
14 Eesglonally
we were close and more Important,
15 I had introduced Hasvey
as the onfy officer to the Israell opr
16 erational peoplecon the Cuban businegs And R therefore
17 It Bhowed theygliad knowledge of Ilarvey and 30 on .
18 The guery then ralsed was whether Ghe penetration wag 1
19 here or was ft In Israel_
8
20 Kirbow Did You express any concerna to L
21 Szulc bout the use of Dr . Mann S name in thfs cle?
4 22 Mr Angleton Not Dr . Mann 5 name My expression was 1
22 at ff you I safd that article, false ag it the 1
2 2 many things injected in it T m I wil] be very frank with Nou_
I became scared of the thought , because _ one , the story
TOp SECRET
1
RJGR ,
they
they knew
They
vefy
Mr .
1s ,
==================================================
Page 44
==================================================
TOR SRE
1
6 theae two Journallets wab 80 Implaugable , and I looked orcr
1 2 to Ben a few tlmes 4 " and I know him well and he h
5 abgalutely 8 stoney express Ion , expresefon on hxls ace.
1 And thka was bome thing very , very queer, and theswhole thlng
5 wag Inftfaleed by And that wab why I abke Mr . Szulc,
did he come You Or dld You come to hlm
Senator Baker Dfd he come to you
Mr _ Schwarz . ake came to 49 ,
Senator Tower . La me ask Yo4 One bpecfffc questlon
0
10 Yes r no .
11 Did You conffrm to S zul8 that durlng the late ffftfeg
{
12 subsequent to the Suez War cthat the CIA made avaflable Lo the
1
13 Israeli Government technizal assfgtance and the avaflabflfty
14 of one or more dlstingtshed nuclea sclentsts or phyelclsts
15 the purpose of geveloplng atomic weapons?
{
16 Mr . Angletom That 1s completely falge
1 7 Mr Aarong Mr Ang leton , did You confvrm or that
18 to Mr . Szulc?
1
19 Angeton [ am stating that I never made any such
i
20 statement And I 8tayed of € of the nuclear businesg 1
21 Ms Aaron So You didn't conffrm and you didn
w 22 Is tha correct?
1
23 Mr _ Angleton. It 19 very difficult for me to respond
8 24 that , because a fter a ]l , thls was a fast-moving discussi@n
25 overing an awful lot of subject _ And furthermore in the
TOp SECRET
HA
1
no
him.
Jek
for
deny
Mr .
deny ,
1
==================================================
Page 45
==================================================
NOPsECRLT
8 back of my mind Wab tle fact thae wo had problems Alth
1 2 the Ibraelie In the nuclear fleld _
1
3 Mr Aaron . What problemg were those?
4 Angleton . were senstlye problemg And
5 I don' t Ghfnk that they really Bhed any ]igh on things that
You are ta lkng about here
Mr . Aaror Do You recall a convengatfon with me and
Mr . Schwarz In whuch, In dlscusgLng chls game matter , you
gafd You felt under obllgation efther confirm or
:
10 this story wIch Mr . Szulc
11 Mr Angleton . Yes Mow I used that phrase . There 1
12 was a denfal And I think_ Wells would second the fact
1
13 that chere was a denfal But whed I got down to a lot of the
C 14 other questioning ,
mY Ehinking was to to lead him around
15 back Into the meetin with Hersh, ane Jead him back to thls
3
16 gource that had do with Sidney Gottleteb , and 80 on ,
17 Senator Tower . Are you gaying In #Efect, then, that
18 any questiong he rafsed wieh You about the trangfer of
19 visual material or deeper technology , or manpower for that
20 matter che Israeli Government, was couched Int C ircumlocutry
2] terms 6f some kind?
22 Ang leton . I will Put it thfs way.
1
23 Senator Tower That you got no direct questions ale 1
9 24 that sort?
Mr Angleton _ I would say thfs to You , Sena wher
TOP SECRET
H 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 45
Mr They very
URR;
net deny
try
Mr
tor
==================================================
Page 46
==================================================
0 I left there and I thlnk thla 18 0 very Important PeInt
1 2 first, I wfll have to explaIn we went to the restaWzant_ he
1 3 {nvlted uS to the restaurant, he wa8 Inafatent And we
4 wene chere And here In the restaurant thedentire
{04
dlscussfon
5 was Gecapltulation by hlm, In 8 restaura that was fafrly
full of neople. Hersh Was 8 Pereon who requested 8 aecret
meetlng In Wel ls 'house , and then proceeded in 4 regtaurant to
regurgitate th 0 entire matter.
~
9 Sena- Towe Whlch restaurant wag It?
10 Mr _ Angleton . It wasethe Seca Catch.
11 Senator Baker _ Diia You ever have any Impression that
1
12 It might be recorded , i8 'a0 what you are drlving at?
1
13 Mr . Angleton _ jdlon t Kiow The thought crossed my
14 mind _ I looked ac btm and he sore of he could hide a lot
15 of things _ {
16 And So we back to Wells And It wag very
17 late. And ha trled to me to come bacl Lo his Place . And
18 I told him just wouldn t do ft, And that 1J how the thing
2
19 broke
8
20 Mr Kfrbow _ Mr Angleton_ in Your rela #onship and 1
2] Position with the' Agency , did You ever express our concern to
4 22 nyone out there that you thought this might have been
1
getup by a forelgn source , or from Internally?
1
8 Mr . Angleton . Mhat mfght be a setup?
25 Mr _ Kirbow _ That thlg whole Szulc interview , story and
TOP SECRET
HW 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 46
Nse
tor
got hounes
get
long
==================================================
Page 47
==================================================
TORscRLt;
1 everything el8e .
{ Mr . Angleton. I never dlscussed thfs wleh anybody
1
3 the Agency untll we had this lunch .
1 cnator Baker Do You suspect that nowv
5 Angleton. I do not t 4 I don sinbw what to bubpect
because I t have acces? to fflee' MAnd I thfnk one ha8
to revlew a of materfal. I thfnk one ha$ to review
Szulc' $ Efleg.
Mfller . Ou gpoke that earlfer , You descrbed
10 It 89 a dossler _
11 Angleton. Wehl think there 18 8 ffle on a
12 security f4le. I think e Was one of the Journalists _ the
1
13 flrst one, who made reputatlon for blowing the whole of
14 and S0 on . Ana I think the fact that he 13 foretgn-
:
15 born, and the a Hegatfons and So And 80 the Bureau has
16 8 8imilar fflex And many of these W leb are created t
17 colabe accredited to the Pentagon_ and therefore 8
18 routine %ecurity check Is made
1
19 Schwarz . Are You aware of any gurva llance of 8
20 Mr Szulc? 1
21 Mr Angleton No _
4 22 Mr . Schwarz . Past survefllance?
1
Mr . Angleton _ I don t know I am not aware of ic 1
8 1g I say , I don 't think I have ever seen hla Efle for ffve Jor
ten yearg .
TOP SECRET
H JubJv
NJek
Mr .
Mr .
ft, 1
Bay
Pigs ,
and
they get
==================================================
Page 48
==================================================
16 HadR1v
60,
8 Kr . KIrbow_ In Your officlal capacity In the 63 You never
had any occab Lon to crosg Mr. Szulc' 9 tra] or
1
conenlder hlm
person
Mr _ Angleton. I separated hlm once 1 fiqht with 8
frfend mine .
Mr . Kibow . But nothing Jn an ofalcal capacity?
Ang leton . No .
Mr. Mfller . Ict me a3k another question on thlg
ffle matter _
10 Yousald that to Your kpowledge there were ffleg on Mr .
11 Szulc. Were there ffles on @0 ther newspapermen?
1
12 Mr . Angleton . Yegt chere are ffles other 0 newspaper-
1
13 men .
14 Mr . Mfller. And ther Americang
15 Mr Angleton A lot of then _
{
16 Senator Baker . Hersh wrote a stor about whae did
17 he gay 7 , O0o ffleg. Wa 8 that right or wreng?
18 Mr Abgleton _ I think It would be nore I have
17
19 never cotnted them .
d
20 Senator Baker . llow many? n hundred thousahd- a million 7
21 Mr , Angleton Well_ when You cons ider a )1 vig_ C hecks
4 22 wc do 500,000 viga checks on forclgners and th question
1
23 Of American spongorg and 80 on thfs thlng On a ] 1 of 1
8 19 a questlon of the gradua ] deterforatlon our efficien
25 because our staff wag cut In half and we had the problems
TOP SECRET
FMT SWyUt
JR
Mr .
on
many
of
==================================================
Page 49
==================================================
TOPSECRT
8 of the Hatergate, and #e had a11 oE these And
X 2 great deal of thle stuef Wab there, but It wagn '€ pro-
3 @s8lonally
worked upon _
1 Senator Baker _ You mentloned the Hatergate twice,
5 Angketon _
6 Can You ahed any Mght on that Per In the. Agency 8
Ife, the impact that the Watergate 1nvestlgatlon had or any
Involvement of the Agency In any of che so-called
Watergate affafr
"
10 Mr Angleton of the Agepey Itself?
11 Sena Baker . anyboay connected wlth it. 1
12 Mr , Angleton _ I 0 am sfr , that 19 a debatable
c
1
13 question there _ and I want E0 get It accurate.
14 What was that agaln?
:
15 Senator Bakef I don' t wan Eo narrow ft. I want to make
16 It broad _
17 Mr Angleton. I want to make sureaI understand You ,
18 Senato Baker . There are Ewo Par '8 'of the questlon . 1
19 One , do You of any Agency Involvemen
8 thoge who were
20 working
n the working with the AGency In {@he Watergate, 1
2] in Yeur break-in or the Preparation for the cove uP or the
22 atgempted cover-up?
1
23 Mr . Angelton . My answer on that I 1 do not . And
8 24 that 1 am separa ting the mldnlght channel 26 things and che
newspapers . I know Jim McCord extremely well
TOP SECRET
H#
things.
beuing
have
Mr .
N
tor
sorry ,
know
is ,
Yby
==================================================
Page 50
==================================================
IoP 19341
8 Senator Baker. Are You @waro o2 the letters
1 2 McCord wrote to the DCI after the Watergate buggestlng how
1
3 you could avoid having thfs blamed on the Agency
1 Angleton. I am aware of what Wa8 In @ne presg .
5
Jx
And Paul Vabamf recently dled who wrote thoj etters , and
It made grea aenge to and I had Pereonal. relatlonghips
beyond an offlcel relationghip.
Senator Bake Ie wrote two Gaynor and three to
Helmg .
10 Mr Angleton . I "diidn 't know
11 Senator Daker . I believe
1
12 Mr . Angleton. In event , I can 8ay that Gaynor 5
c
1
13 connection, because he had rea trust 1n Gaynor and he
14 was a very etubborn man and he lef the on conviction_ :
15 I assue , troubleg the Office Security_
16 Senator Baker In connection wfch 1a tergate?
17 Mr . Angleton He left much earlfer .
18 Mr . Mlllar Ke belng McCord?
1
19 Mr . Angeton .
20 Mr ler . Nhy did he leave? 1
21 Angleton _ I don c And I wa8 really
0 I prised
4 22 tha didn € cone by and 8ay goodbye.
1
23 Senator Baker . Wag he a prominent offfclal at chc
1
9 24 ency?
Mr _ Angleton _ He wag not
TOp SECRET
HW
NJRQ
me ,
any
AGency
or
Yes.
8
know
==================================================
Page 51
==================================================
SecRET
Senator Baker. Did he have 8
prominent respopOlilfty?
2 Mr Angleton. He W8s 4 Man that had 8 very @IFrIcult
cage abroad _ which meant that It had to be bur no leakages _
And uged him twice, and One was 8 Pretty n9 thy uge of hlm.
And he fallowed Instructlons to the lettet He strayed on the
one And 1 Ig not Importanta It 18 Juge some thing that K
he did gomethfn that wasn" € very wise
Senator Bakan Doyou know he wene into the Watergatel
Complex?
10 Mr . Angleton_ 1 an understand ft, because I would
it was Ideological wlen him. There wasn t any dffffculty
11 say
12 In understanding his vlaws Onka given subject.
Senator Baker _ Qhe egulpment_ that wab used , I am told_
13
14 was a
falrly primit Ve gort for that sort of operatlon.
c
15 Does that agree your apprafsal hfm? :
16 Mr Anglexton That 1g what I read And that surprised
me als0 , because a5 a rule let me put this way , What
17
I am saying iS , it was the Sovfets who made allegatlon
18
that in certain country very close to us the were using
19
laser beam on a window of the Minister of Defense and
20
2]
acduiring everything
So , instead oE using anybody in the clandestire side. I
22
ook McCord and the group and sent them to that count for
23
six or seven weeks to work on Jt. So , McCord has great
of the he knows the counter electronics Ana
knowledge
Top SECRET
HI 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 51
==================================================
Page 52
==================================================
{ORycrE
1
to Enow that You have to know che other .
1
Senator Baker He wag familiar wlth the mogt -exotic 1
1
gource of Inttelligence gatherlng?
Mr Angleton:ePrec{gely .
And that' 18 why I can ndergtand I mean , ff the
Paperg are
correetrn what they have Btated, Gilebough many
Dntourceinkere-Pegplezwhezele9eellEetesH @Lauequ piende
Senator Baker. I don t want to lead You too far away {rom
the orlginal subject. But I would be interested In knowing wha
10 J€ any Information You can u9 about the Ogwald 8tuation
instance , does che Agency keep a ffle, or does It havd
11 For
1
12 a file on Lee Hlarvey Oswald?
13 Mr . Angleton . They have a file. They have , I think, more 1
14 ehan one I think they have a subject ffle, and Jn that they
15 have all the documentation that went to the Warren Commission
;
16 through Mr Raymond Rocca , who 1s my deputy.
And then there i9 a lot of undigested materlal that wag
17
18 brought out after the Warren Commission .
1
Senator Baker Was there ever any inquiry? Or do You
19
i
opinion as to whether Oswald was a Soviet Agent?
20 have any |
Mr Angleton_ Yes , I have a very strong opinion. 1 know
2 ]
22 the time factor , I will try to shorten this,
4
1
Dut I tried to prevall on Mr . Dulles that there should
23
that there should be a statement co the effect that
24 not be 8
Commission , in the 1ife of the Commission that these are
25 the
TOP SECRET
4# 50 Page
got
[R
gIve
1
==================================================
Page 53
==================================================
the conclusfona on the avaflable BvIdence, But" glven the Eace
1
thae the Sovfet Government hae Department 13, whfch 10 under
!
1 5 the Central Commfttee who 13 taxed with the asgassinatlon of
Nestern Leaders , that the door 1s open , and that 18 for future
generatlons to speculate= So that It would not be closIng the
door that ft would really mean the Investlgatlon be
purgued
Senator Daker . John McCone , a9 I remember was
querfed once on whether we could establish the bona Eldes of
10 certain people Including Oswald _
11 Mr. Angleton_ And Nogenko.
1
Senator Baker . Nas there any advice by you at that
12
tfme to McCone or other wise that che bona Efdes of that
1 13
Soviet pergon or of Oswald not to be 8tated In cate-
14
15 gorlcal terms? :
Mr Angleton During the period of the Narren Commis9ion
16
prevented a9 far as we could any information Erom Nosenko
17 we
golng under the record , on a question of bona ffdes.
18
1
19 Senator Baker Why?
8 Angleton Because we didn'€ regard him a9 bona fides
Mr 20 1
2 Senator Baker _ What did You regard him
Mr . Angleton. Ne thought he was a dispatch agent who
1 22
1
was sent to mutilated the leads of very high grade Sovietp
23
whom we
had acquired prior to that_
24
Senator Daker . To mutilate leads relating to the Kennedy
25
TOP SECRET
50y
would
ought
as?
==================================================
Page 54
==================================================
SiqrI
51
asga8binatlon?
8
2 Mr Angleton. Relatlng to asga8sinatfon , RGB agent8 ,
1 5
Va/bzzALt
che Brftlsh agents , and many agents In France, a
0 alleged penetratlon in the U.S . , et cetera .
5 Senator Baker And did McCone accept Your advice?
6 Mr . Angleton . He dfd , except that I underatood that
7 8 lot of Ic has been declassff fed . And when he gave thfs
Intervfew recently with Shor , I called hfs executive officer
Elder and I asked him, and he sald, who Jn the Agency ever
10 alleged to McCone that we now had re-established the bona fIdes
11 And I safd , he 19 an old man doesn € think too
1
12 well, et cetera, and don t give me that stuff _
1 13 And he sgaid , well, I will 1t to You .
c
14 And I never heard from him 8ince . But McCone was a man
15 whowould not have made thfs statement . He has total recall =
;
16 Senator Baker . I am sure he does.
17 Do You have an opinion a5 to whether or not Ogwald was
18 Infact a Sovfet agent?
1
19 Mr _ Angleton. Well let me Put it thfs way,
a
I don 't think that .the Oswald case is dead _ There are too 20 7
21 many leads that were never followed UP There' $ too much in-
1 22 Eormation that has been developed later
1
23 For example , in 1966 , in a Soviet book on Cuba there is
1
24 a photograph of Khrushchev , a photograph of Castro, a photograpk
8 1l + 'Af: (61 3 )/
o€ a man ca]led Alexiev, real name Shettov , KGB , with the first
25
TOP SECRET
HI 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 54
Sclone
and
glve
==================================================
Page 55
==================================================
52
Leontov , Kho wab
Havana , 0 man Soviet Ambabgador to
0
man
In Mexico. When the Mexlcan
2
the Sovlet KGB operatlonal
1
Btudent, they found In hfe
5 arrested Castro 89 a 1
the name of Leontov,
KGB , Mexlco.
books
80 on , are In 8
KGB Journal for
5 Now ,
photographg 61, and
It 18 a blble=
75 percent KGB staf€.
Soviet citizeng abroad
Castro, Alexfev , Leontov_
Photograph of Brezhnev ,
double agent after the
as8as8inatlon,
Now , we had 8
that he acqufred from the
who made a number of allegatlons
and he wag 0
superlor of Leontov
10 Chfef of KGB , Mexico, Yatskov
7
wag
in Cafro on 8 stat
after the
asgaggination Khrushchev
11 Now , totally
an
American journillst aside'
1
12 visit. And he
view that there was a con-
of context, expressed the
1 13
Wing of the U.S _
it involved the Right
spiracy ,
of context. And he
The
thingwas totally
15 :
this bug in this fellow 8 ear.
16
that the KGB all of
NE
double agents who stated
17
working on
the assas8ina-
for six months on
18
thelr personnel
an American
Right Wing business
1
tion , and
had concluded that
19
And I am not talking
a Johnson was to
in power .
20 undcr
whowere ascer_
I talking about men 1
21 about petty informants .
elite.
of the Soviet
members of the KGD and
22 tained
leads have
chat_ Those cases those
And I can multiply
23
of Tack of manpower
up . One is because
never been
Eollowed
24
and the government
problem in Washlngton
Two , the 25
TOP SECRET
HW 50955
named and
note-
pollce
and
pulled
out
and 14 planted
out
Put
had
succeed
am
part
5
general
==================================================
Page 56
==================================================
@;u
which can
adjudicate Ibbue8 In ehe
ehat there 18 no forum
1
community. of 0
counter-Intelllgence nature,
2 Intelllgence 1
ffrm_ that relate to Bomebody In
1 5 I may have allegatlons , very
ombudsman or gomebody = to
office. Dut there isn t anyone _
hlgh
Informatlon and talk to
the Soviets and
5 whom you can gowith the
F',
and ourselves
and everybody together_
the bureau
48
at Your lefsure 0 memor-
Senator Daker Could You
tions in that regpect , how that might
andum of your recommenda
be congtftuded?
would not be 8
pleasant one. I have
Mr Angleton . It
10
and I don € think It 49 breaklng
any confidence
11 submitted
Commissfon. And I
have submitted
12 Buch a
memorandum to the
Vice Prsident. And my whole plea
13 8
personal letter to the 1
but regardless , that In and
was that my days were numbered ,
14
Igsion, that In hls position as
the 1ife of that Comm
15 beyond
these
2
he had a rare opportunity the Efrst tlme
16
Vice President
disaster of Hoover 5 death
were ever aired , that the
17
matterg
and 80 forthe hag destroyed the
and Gray , and the Watergate
18
forces . 1
19
counter-intelligence
the final
thing Hersh has about dealt
And this added
20 |
2 blow Undlzisohate
15enatos Bakes s |
ahatteztoZIEeEzupt_Youc
22
make an
exa-luattoieo=
questlon , but can 0 L
23 Zask_You chls
40
Pareicularly Its countcr-
; ef fectiveness of the Ageney;:
Ehe 24 8 blgtimc?"
25
ntelligcnce_acELuities at_t
TOP SECRET
HI 50955
Pull
gve
and
of 8
Nsr
You
==================================================
Page 57
==================================================
OPSECRET
54
Mr _ Angleton. Very , very poor_
1
I have put Jn there , and I think 1t 18 very concervatfve
1
1 5 that it hag put uS back 20 years . But I think The eyes of
0 every intelligence service In the Western Wora #here we
5 have had the leadership and we pulled @VSEYEH= together , and
where thex have looked Lo u9 for guldance and for creced and
for underskandIng . that we have lost al of our prestige .
8 Senator Baker Two more questlong and I Will
yleld my turn,
10 Do You know 1G Or haves Jany substantfal informatlon about
11 Russlan KGB_ actfvfefe= Ghe U.S _ g4ch 48 the Affltratlon
1
12 of CongressIonal offices
Mr Angleton_ There whole hfstory of information 11 13
that relates to thedpast and to Dodus operandf and to targets
14
and S0 on And_ Ehat is Inclusfve all the American Iffe,
15
{
and in particularly visits to the Sovlet Unlon and So on ,
16
Thereare C omunications intelllgence mord sensitive which was
17
broken during and after the war, KGB communications New York
18
1
Lo Moscow and Washington to Moscow, et ceterae And there were
5
cryptnyms gIven _ And 1e runs into hundreds of thousands of
20 1
21 fessages , of which a sma ] 1 pcrcentage have been broken
And thcy relate to Miss many things . And mos of
1
those cases will not be subject to prosecution, because thcy
not be" admissible_ And there are a lot of problems
there We have worked on ft, and we brought the British, the:
25
TOp SECRET
H# 50955
in
Ing
NSK
qulc
19
and
would
==================================================
Page 58
==================================================
OHScRU
55
0 Canadiane and New Zealanders and Aubtrallan8, because we ave
1 thlg comon denomlnator of the milftary and other agreements
1
5 where do share common Information _
4 And there are many unresolved caseb .
5 8enator Daker . You know of any cabes8 though, dea) -
6 with @enetratlon of a Congresslonal: of fze?
Mr . Angleton. No . But my statement doesn = t mean anything ,
beceuge I can @gure You that It 18 therfiast thngI have
been concerned wNsh Ln gome months , I geen these
10 a [legatfons In the paper I wouldn be 8urprIsed _ And this is
11 the second time In my or third time , I have ever
12 been here To come here and see how this whole set up 1s 13
1 13 qute a shock.
14 Senator Baker Whatwabout comunfcations intercept ,
15 Congresslonal conversataons , are you aware of any methodical
:
16 effort by the Rugsia 5 or the KGB vis-a- 43 Congresslonal tele-
17 phone conversationg
18 Mr Angleton _ Absolutely. I think I an 2 ssuming now
{'( ^ 1
19 that the Peop) in NSR are correct, usually that che
5
20 telephone _ e formal telephone compeny trafffc appagently , 7
21 without €' knowledge the caller , is quickly shiftea to
i 22 microwa That runs into hundreds thousands of telephone
1
23 ca)l5
1
8 24 Now , I used co be qufte deeply involved in the
25 'Fenetratlon of embags les , and 50 forth, In my youth. And ft
TOP SECRET
HI 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 58
they
Do
(SR
Ing
have
they
of
of
==================================================
Page 59
==================================================
ToR 1R1
36
1
L8 8 fIngernafl, arm and body affalr. Ie tekeb an awful
0
long tlme before you finally Into 0 code room and 1
1 5 place where You can do gomethlng securely .
1 What I am trying co say 18 that 1€ You enough
5 depth any target or any installation You egln to know much
more aboug that installatlon than anybody fiho occupleg It.
7 Sena€ Baker. If I were trylng € conffrm the rumor
8 that che KGB hadtthe capabflity and In fact record 83 many-
9 89 30 or 40 thousana simultaneous telephone conversatlons _
10 most ly related to governmental Zficlale, and trangmftted them
11 co che Sovlet Unfon , an kepe Dndfvidual ffle8 on them , would
12 you confirm that for
13 Mr _ Angleton _ I woltd State that that 18 absolutely in
0
1
view correct_ And Aould Sa chat the man who technfcally
14 my c
could respond to tha would be Dr Lou Tordello, 3 retired
15
3
16 Chie€ of NSA who now , I think, 881 a consultant there.
And he 1s probabl amore gophisticated Person to relate the pro-
17
ducts of NSA the realitles of the questiton You asked _
18
1 And think the other point I would maket i8 simply that
19
i
what theiiv KGD has , which we never will have , manpower
20 7
In other words we have to narrow the size of the Garget some
21
Aehe way the British did, and expel that 105 ,
22
1
Our State Department says that what happened in
23
1
has no relevancy here, because we have had a difEerent
2 24 FEngland
because among
those expelled men who served in Washingtor
25* Isetup,
TOP SECRET
HI 50955 D Faye J9
get
gee:
NRk
me?
day 4
==================================================
Page 60
==================================================
Ju@) HTAA
and who weren € In the U.K. , were those who were On tho
8
1 Anglo-Amerlcan Degk, whlch meant that there wa8 #n
1 American whom they had handled In Wabhington who been
4 transferred to London where the case of f Icer eollows the agent
6 AAnd that 9tatement, officlal statemene was out wit
out any c@nsultation Mich the Dureau ortourgelves , we
are lving a dream world here Intarmg of SikLete; and tim
fo L' UUs
18 ghort , It 16 detente , and Jt 01l the 'Eallatfon kind of
discussions and 8 Tguments one /hearg on the subject. We have
10 cone to detente for formation through operatlong and our
11 undergtandlng of it, not Jshful thinking
1
12 And our views are Ehared by profe8slonals a11 through
5
13 the Western World And theyetaugh at the U.S _ In terms of wha 1
2
14 detente has done But what I€ Whas done to the Intelligence
15 services , or to @he FBI , the FBILg only 0 shadow of what It
1
16 once was . And: 50 there Isn t any Neal interna) security protec
17 tlon_
The Bureau 8 problems and I had the case of 8 KGB
18
8 officer Ehreatening one of the people we are ea lng wfeh
19
in 2 Mid-west , he was from the United Nations young 20
KGB fellow . And I asked the Bureau, was he 3 2]
22 And they said, we him to bed _
They dldn t him to bed , he was where he wasn
supposed to be . And I tried to the department to g0 In tith
5 him . And I am 8tfl] uP there.
TOP SECRET
HI 50955 DocIa:32423393 Page 60
baa
Put
So, NRC
Put
Put
get
==================================================
Page 61
==================================================
TOR SEcRET
59
on Ewo or three points _ And I Bafd , I am exercfelng my r @hts
3
Wnder the CIA , and 80 on ,
But he safd , I have to run, and it was abou five
past five And I asked him if he understood in effect what
5 he was doing Ehe implicatlong
6 And he safdy chat 18 the regpons [bflfty I would aagume
7 And I said, what about Mr _ Meyer and buflding uP to be
our guccessors?
9 And we were about the same age And he introduced
10 Meyer over the years into more sensitive operations and al]
11 the foreigns with whom we worked} agents and what not And
12 the reaction to him universatly was he wag to be the successor
13 And he said , that something I Wisl 1 have Lo negotiatc.
14 And I said, whatfdo You mean negotiat
15 And he said Me will talk about Jt next week.
I goteup and shook hands with hfm and walred out.
16
;ash 17
2[9
18
19
2 [
22
23
24
25
TOP SECRET
H# 50955 Docle
got
Ngk_
So ,
==================================================
Page 62
==================================================
GEzlburnt {50
Tor)iRE
Ele qaah
Senetor Baker Do You knov of anyone having electronlc
8
survel Jance convergatlonal recording In ehe Ova) oerica other
1
(2) than the Presdential (7) capabflfty?
1
Mr Ang leton Never
Senator Baker Do ou know of anyone who ever penetrated
che Preg identfa l apparatue ?
6
Mr Ang leton Never Senato
What has come out_ che Joint Chetef 8 and a] 2 chat
#G
stuf € 1n the
Serator Baker 1 am speaking of anyone Kho mi gheehave
10
penestrated the taping capability In the Ova1 office?
11
Angleton Nor {
12
Mr Schwarz Can I follow up some of the questlons that
1
Senator Baker agked You about Oswald?
14
What about the picture8 _ one of whlch wab 8
picture of
15
1
Leontov thac was in a piece of paper found In Mr Oswald' $
16
pocket when he was arrested 1n Mexlco?
17
Mr Angleton _ There 18 an allegation .
18
Mr Schwarz _ What connection 19 there between that
1
1 9
Picture that allegation Lee Harvey Oswald?
8
2')
'r Ang leton The only thing i5 Ogwald S trip co Mexico 1
2
to to Cuba alleged ly to contact the Soviets
Kas 90
22
Mr Schwarz And was Leontov then in Mexico, or
1
2_
Mr Ang leton I don t know , because the double agent
2 24
Khom he he lieve was actua ] ly controlled by the Soviets
25
TOP SECRET
H# 5o955 DocId:32423393 Page 63
NJB(
tabout
Dapersnr
and and
==================================================
Page 63
==================================================
eeecRe
1
tkov, gave 48 Informatlon which e would nov regard a8
Bye -
{
whfch tend to abgolve the Soviets of any private
2 1
implication with Ogwald
1 5
red from 8 number of sources
Mr Schwarz When you
4
infomatlon that che KGB had spent gome six monthg
the
5
Mr Ang leton We. only acquired the hard of s1x
6
did Erom one man who Wab very high In che
months and what they
KGB _
8
Without gettlng into what hi8 name was
Mr Schwarz
9
when dd You acquire the Informatfon?
10
Mr Ang leton 1967 , or thereabouts
11
after the Warren Commiss ion had
Mr Schwarz _ So it was
;
1 2
reached Itg conclusiong ?
8 13 such Informatlon during
2 Mr Ang leton Did You have any
14
the ife of the Harren Commigs ion? :
15
Mr Ang leton I think the only thfng was the Nosenko
16
Baker Which was guppresged by Khom?
Senator
1 7 it, because Nosenko arrived
Mr Angleton We suppressed
18
after the asgasginatlon a9 a KGB defector
at a very brief time
12
19 And he 15 the one that you think now as
Senator Daker _
8
20
a
planted agent? 7
2 1
Yes They thought he was gent on 8
Mr Arg leton
22
mission_
1
; 25 whom?
Mr Schwarz Suppressed by
24 from the Warren Commigsion
Mr Ang leton Suppressed
25
TOP SECRET
HI baqe
would
acqui
8tuff
==================================================
Page 64
==================================================
TORSEcRET
Mr Schwarz You 8afd that Nosenko , one of the reabong
1
{ suspected Nogenko was 8 double agent , Or a
planted. agent _
2 1
was because he Kag saylng thfngg that were contra-
rather, L 3
qualfty person who theretofore had
dictory to some other high
1
informatfon before Nogenko came" to chfs
been giving you
5
country?
6
Kr Angleton _ That 19 right
7
wag the nature of the Informatlon
Mr Schwarz What
8
to the Kennedy 489a88ination that che high quality
relating
Person had given
10
this 90 that it makes a little
Mr Schwarz Let me say
11
more senge
12
member of the KGB [n Helsinki defected
In December 196 1 a
1 13
';YN
He hag never been in service ,
to us . Mis name is Golitzen
c 14
came out wlth an erroneoug account of it,
except Jack Anderson
15
stated there was 0 plot to agga99[nate
alleging that he had
{
16
Nixon He did not make such a gtatement
1 7 think this statement should be on
Mr . Kirbow Do
1 {
the record?
1
19
I don t mind t being on the after
Mr Angleton
8
20 They have been looking for him
1
the Anderson article
1 2 without any question the most ma jor
Now, his i s probably
7 22
War II as far a3
Sovlet Intentions
defect ion gince World
:
3 23
tion, and Soviet operatlons are concerned
Soviet organiza
2 24 otherg , that it was 90 important Kag
And the reason among
25
TOP SECRET
HW 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 65
you
you ?
You
record
==================================================
Page 65
==================================================
TOP SECRET
7
he had decided to defect many Yearg prlor to December of 1961 ,
8
if the opportunity ever arrfved And therefore he used those
2 1
many yearg breaking down the compartmentallzatlon oE the KGB
1 3
in order to acqulre the kind of information which would be mos
'1
va luable to the US to our alleg
5
Therefore he refuged many ass Ignemtng abroad _ but tried
6
to a lwayg remain in headquarters and get hlmself appointed Eo
inves tive commissions and other thingg of thfg sort whfch
would get Into everybody elges 3 buglnes8 Among other things
9
he spent many years in che trainfng schoolg people who
10
back for 9 ix weeks from different parts of the to
came
1]
about their achievements And he absorbed a ] 1 of this
brag
12
information
8 13
8 And among other thingg , he stated that he the
14
and circumstantial evidence of Penetrations
crytogramg
15
6
throughout the West
16
And then the Soviets rapidly transferred 300 of their
17
after his defectlon . And a3 19 norma l in a case of
people
18
kind the big problem 15 Lo write 3 damage report , which
this 1
19)
the who le service wou ld come to a standstill And the
5 means
226
would he to review a] ) paper files &d everything tha
objective 7
2
showed hi s initials And You usually would have three
22
have information which
categories of information: You
7 2
had knowledge of and information which he did
he definitely
24
of and information Khich you are not
not have know ledge
2:
TOP SECRET
HI 900
and
tiga
for
world
gave
would
==================================================
Page 66
==================================================
TOP SECRET
5
1
ceratin about
1
{ Now when we afd a
gimilar operatlon on the Sergeant
2 1 3
who wag working in the Natlonal Securfty Agency and
Dunlop
1 3
if I am not mistaken we came to approxi-
committed guicide
1
that he could have had access to
mately 400, 000 documents
5
had _ And It [8 Interesting to note
although he may not have
agga89fpation, Jn a gearch of the quarters
thac after hig
aid the scarch, found sfx of my letters
the Dureay, Or whoever
8
Sym
to NSA latfng to information from Golftzen_
9
You speak of che
499a9sinatlon?
Senator Daker
10
Mr Angleton . What did You say?
11
Did say Mr Dunlop?
Mr Miller
1
12 After his suicide I am gorry
Mr , Angleton
1 13
Miller You the term a8ga89inatlon .
c Kr
14
Mr Angleton . I meant suicide
15 word i5 interestlng, because It is
1
Mr Miller . The
16
know that he was agsassinated_
charged_ as you
1 7 I was thinking out loud or someth ing
Mr Angleton . Maybe
18
M1*
reports to NSA Kere in
In any event , the 1969 Golitzen
19 in the attic_ And there Kas a
a Plastic bag , a5 I recall _
i
20
of whether he passed them before or after
question 1
2 what we were on was , I was agking you
Mr Schwarz Now
2
22 testified earlier
5 2:. wanted to say
Golitzzn
was SO
Mr
Ang leton _ I just
24 world becauge We imedfately on
enormous to the Western
25
ToP SECRET
H# 5o955 Do 393 Page 6
re
Did
You
used
You
moved
==================================================
Page 67
==================================================
TOP SECRET
65
thoge cages whfch were perfghable , the French , the Britfsh,
And we had never had 8
second Chlef
: and ourgelveg = et .cetera
1 2
the FBI cype of Sovfet, defector in our
Director , which meang
1
of the blue no contact as in
lives , and a1l 'of thig
six months after the defectlon of Golitzen
Geneva
5
date 18 when in relatfong to the
Ar Schwarz And the
6
Kennedy a99as9ination?
.L
7
wag a contact , this Kag a
Mr Ang leton . We 1l , thfg
8 for informatfon Prior to the
defection He came to u9 once
9
agsas8ination
10 Soviets a nd I am golng
And then 1n Moscow the
1] member of the Second Chfef Directorate
into a lot of names a
3 12 of documents from
the Second
an American tourist a stack
8 13 FBI , relating to how they
Chief Directorate , the
14 others of our agents , which ghowed
(blank)
1 5 two-headed source but they
they didn' t get them through 3
16 on our side _
it through a Fyblank)
1 "1 into the thousands from Golitzen,
So the leads rant
thousands of pages of transcript , interro-
thousands and
1
and identi fications , which in
J
gation, exhiblting photographs _
0 20 other courses And out of
would refresh his memory on 1 turn
2 of the case of Philby , Burgess
that ceme the finalization
2* in che British Admiralty , and some
that , the Vassi ly case
23 cases in France and s0 on
other cases , and many
24 Did Oswald shox up at that t ime?
Mr Kirbow
2 :
Top SECRET
HI 5955 Woc 3393 Page
and out
Y
61 `:'
not
not
gave
got
and
got
1&
and
19
and
a ] )
==================================================
Page 68
==================================================
TopSECRET
66
1
Mr _ Angleton. No , not
from Golleze_
8
But when the 4gga98inatfon took place
2 1
Mr _ Schwarz The Kennedy 49ga89inatlon?
1 3
Mr . Ang leton When the Kennedy a99498fnation took place
1 Golitzgn
called me imediately stated that the modug
5
operandi with any defector from anybody 9 army to the Soviet
6
Unfon required that he 9o through process [ ng by the 13th
Department of the KGB
8
Mr . Schwarz Which 18 their asgas9inatfon department?
Mr Angleton _ Whfch 19 thefr as5a99 tfon department ,
10
whfch i9 called their Affalrs for Executfve Action.
1 1
And there are two reasons for it. Number one Kas to
{
12
find out what sophisticated weaponry or tra ining he might have
8 13
{ had that would be of use to them And number two , whether it
14
wag more valuable to reinfiltrate him into the National Army
15
Eor future activity
16
Mr . Schwarz of the nature of asgassinations?
1 ?
Mr . Angleton . Of anythlng = It could be sabotage , or
18
intelligence , or whatever
8 1 9
AND THIS WAS THE SOP on che dea ling with military
3
20
3 de fectors 8
{
Now when the Soviet Government turned over to the US
22
the documents that led to the interest regarding Oswald
a ] 1
1
2:,
the Soviet Union, there Kag nothing there indicating
stay i n
: 21
Depar tment 1 3 Then after the assassinat ion
process ing by
25
TOP SECRET
HA
and
Ina
==================================================
Page 69
==================================================
TOP SECRET
whom we hid once In Geneva , he wont back to Mogcow
Nogenko ,
would have never come back on the scene 8
And in my vlew he
2
che RCPANoV
1
thig Cheraponov thfng In to have the locus
because they brought
1 5
have control8 , In Geneva , to
shifted from where we ~would
1 controlg And that would
Cow where they would have all the
Mos
And therefore they would have the direct
be the Dfrectorate
mutilating the eadg and the
means
counteracting
tance of Golitzen S de fection _
Impor
the documentg to the American
But the tourist gave
them The Charge ingi9 on
Embassy And we
tographed
10 groundg that it be
them back co
the Soviets on giving
1 1
appropriate _
3 1 2
not the official documents deal -
Mr Schwarz These are
8
documents that the man tried Lo pass
}
with Oswald but the
14
in Switzerland?
15 Chfef Directorate , he took all
Mr Ang leton The Second
{
16
out of the FBI Sovfet gection and gave them
of the documentg
how we ceught on things
to the tourist and we
18 aggassinatlon .
Cheraponov allegedly
So there i 5 the
8 19 border and shot And i n my view
Has chased to the Turkish
2(' Cheraponov wag sta tioned in
this is a myth, because in 194 8
1
tried to defect to u9 , and at another time
Be lgrade , and he
222 and contact with the Birtish MI -6 ,
tried Lo
establish liaison
1
2 :, was Chief of Intellgence meaning
at a ctime when Philby
24 under Philby in 19 4 8 , and
2 have been
that the approach
2 5
Top SECRET
EF
and 0f
ted
pho-
would
13
ing
1 7 got read
8
5
would
==================================================
Page 70
==================================================
TOR SECRET
68
then he reappearb In the early 1960 ' 8 88 4 member of the
8
Second Chief Dfrectorate 2 1
1 3
That 18 enough of Cherapanov . But It 19 Important only
from the Sovlet point of view , the best lald plans fall apart _ 1
5 And then out of the blue Nosenko , whom we would never have
seen again, reappears after the agsa9gination In Geneva and 6
tellg us he wants to defect _
7
Mr . Schwarz And he provided Informatlon which was
Inconsistent wlth Oswald being the Rusgian agent?
Mr Ang leton . I am coming to that
10
So mmediately we tried to get the breadth of hfs career
11
So that we know where the prioritles are And the first thing
12
8 he tel1s uS is that while he was in_ the Second Chief
13
{
Directorate in the American Section, Ogwald 9 KGB dossier went
C: 14
over hig desk - And his first gtory , a9 I reca)l it, was that
15
:
it wag two vo lumes or three volunes _ And finally it went down
16
to one ume and 3 small sheaf of papers
17
Also he safd chat the dossier showed clearly that Oswald
18
was mental ly unba lanced, and that he was a poor shot, and
1 $
8 there couldn € get a hunting license and 2 lot of stuff
20
this sort
1
21
And then on al1 of these outs tanding leads penetra-
5 22
1 tions , of the French , the Americang the British codes bugging
23
{ of the Embassy , a]l of these different sorts Nosenko had
9 24
something to do whfch diverted us From Nosenko 9 leadg And
25
TOP SECRET
HI sioJY Wo {y3 Page
vol
fore
of
==================================================
Page 71
==================================================
10
TOP:SECRET
7
In the normal course of event8 , we mfght have put Golftzen in
8
contact wieh Nosenko , which may have meant the a99a88natfon 2 1
of Golitzen, because the whole approach of Nogenko wa8 one 1 3
where loglcally You would brlng them in and have two bodies
1
one from the First Chief Directorate , that
Golltzer ,
the 5
CIA part of the sys tem and the other from the FBI part the 6
system, and cherefore you would have a very strong balance
7
agafnst the KGB_ But we didn' & that Because there were 8
certain things , litmug papers , questions put to Nosenko And
9
a3 far a9 I was concerned , i€ he was bona fide he would have
10
~" answered one way, and he did not answer that And they had
11
to do with 80me deeper secrets regarding a meeting of the
12
2000 members of the KGD and the Soviet Government In May of 1 13
1959 , pres ided over by She lepin and attended by many members
14
c of the Central Committee on the reorientation of the Soviet
15
Services and the return to Lewinigm wherever intelligence
{
16
operations hag a political objective And this is a part
1 7
the proces 9 of de-Stalinization. And So when we took him
18
unwitting ly chronologically through his career , he ts 2
1$
i all of this phase And Ke had three or four or five other tes
20
things , where their damage report would not show that Goli tzen 1
2}
had access because it was part his way of getting
22
breaking compartmentation And there fore they would have no
{ 2!,
evidence that he had guf f icient knowledge .
24
Mr Schwarz And S0 Nosenko looked funny to you , he
25
Top SECRET
HI 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 72
1$ ,
0f
do
way
of
omi
of i n and
==================================================
Page 72
==================================================
TOP {SECRET
70
looked wrong to you?
1
8
Mr Angleton . Abgolutely.
2 1
Mr Schwarz He looked like 4 plant to you?
1 3
Mr Ang leton Precisely .
1
Mr Schwarz And among the Information that he provided
5
to you wa s chat Oswald wag 2 mental cage and wag a bad shot?
6
Mr Angleton . Right
Mr Schwarz And You had also received Erom Nogenko
8
'm
Mr Angleton _ Golitzen from Golftzen information
that suggested the norma ] practice was for Department 13,
10
which had responsibility from the Russian KGB for assasgina ~
11
tions to intervfew miltitary defectorg And we had observed
1
12
that when the Russians transferred documents concerning
1 13
Oswald, that chere was no reference in there to any such
14
debriefing by Department 13 And another important part of
15
1
it is that there was a man who was handling George Blake from
16
London , who was Counselor of the Soviet Embassy And when he
17
returned he became head of the 13 Department , General Rodin
18
But he was there under an alias a9 a civilian_ Me was the
1
19
Chie€ of the KGB in London , and a very high grade man Then i
20
he took over the Department 13 reinvigorated it 7
2 ]
Mr Schwarz And what was his connection with Oswald?
22
Mr Ang leton I am saying that he Kas head of Department
1
23
was head of Department 13 at a time I mean , he had
13 =
2 24
in that , in other words the prominence of
a long history
25
TOP SECRET
St
and
and
==================================================
Page 73
==================================================
TOP SECRET
12
thle 10 0 pofnt I think I ghould maka , thae 1
Department 13 and
1 Sovfets , does not have an
488a88inatlon
:
the Agency , unlike the
1 2
always an
a89a89inatlon
department The Soviets have
1
gealed of € from che rest of the
department , which 19 totally
from the outside knc
very 1ttle about
zation People
career-wise stay in there And
what goes on in that People
of the KGB , and drop of f , who In
they report to the Chairman
And therefore it 19 an entirely
turn report to the Politboro
oE forms of action ,
sealed organization which 15 capable
sabotage or what, an
hether 1t be gabotage an fllegal
10 of the rest of the
directorace which 15 independent
illegal
11 and all thig type of thing
KGD nuclear sabotage ,
12 in the event war And o€
infiltration of enemy forces
9 1 3 assassination of Ukrainian leaders
{
course assas9ination, the
14
in West Germany
15 recount that simply becauge it makes
Mr Schwarz Do you
6
1 6 absence of any reference to Ogwald becausd
more significant the
1 ? of Department 13 , or
evidence as to the Vigor
are giving
123 there is 8 more
direct connection
did You recount it because
1
19
with Oswa ld?
6 20 related to what 1 told Mr Du l les
Mr Ang leton- This i9 1
5 2 to close the door on the
it Ras absolutely wrong
I thought
22 instead there should be a statemen
; ife 0f the Commission, and
1
23 that on the fact avai lab] @ to
that we are not in a tion
24 these are our conclusions And
2
us during the
period
2 %
TOP SECRET
HI 5o955 Doci Page
had
organi
a 1 1
and
of
You
posi
9iven
==================================================
Page 74
==================================================
TOPISEcRE
'13
1
then to spell out :n detell Department 13 and it8 organization
1
shlgtb _ But noe only the burden
8 the burden of proof
1 2
know when 4 worm Into somebody' s
of but you never
1 5
tment 13 _ And that bring You uP on
head co defect from Depar
the entfre story .
5
have recounted the importance of
Mr Schwarz . So
You have recounted the 8fgnfffcance In
Department 13
reference to Department 13 In the
mInd the abgence oE any
turned over by the Sovfetg to the US
documentation on Oswald
che strange nature the Informat fon
And have recounted
10
provided by Nosenko
11
Mr Angleton _ Correct
2 12 another line 0 f tions
Schwarz Let me ask You
Mr
8
As to the Nosenko information,
{ about each one of these items
14 information wag suppresged from the
You stated that that
15
Warren Commiggion?
6
16
The
word suppression is probably not the
Mr Angleton
1 7 honest with I was told
because , 1 will be very
right
l: informat ion was
given class ifled , and
the other day: that the
1 9 somebody , or Mr McCone who passec]
4 it was to He lms or
0 20 have asked for it, but I
it as a
classi f ied document I 1
haven t scen i
2* moment ago that it was
Schwarz Why did say a
Mr
2:,
suppressed?
2': never kney where it went . When
Mr Ang leton . Because I
25
TOP SECRET
H#
and
goes
Proof _
You
your
of
of
You
ques
13
You_
word
1
9 iven
you
==================================================
Page 75
==================================================
10
TOP;SECRET:
73
1
I Wag 81tting In the: pogftlon a9 to where that Informatlon
8
would 9o , I Wag oppoged to lt And my pEficfal positlon was
2 1
that And I ghought until relatively recently that ft never
1 5
went _
And then al1 of a sudden have declassified a lot of
5 () : " C&
stuff And Mr Rocha , who was the polnt of record of the
Agency 5 dea ling with the Warren Commf88fon , told me that
Nosenko 9 tuff was the stuff they were declass ffyfng _ Now , his
8
role was not one of the executive nature Actua lly it was
9
s imply because he was a great scholar and 8 great many other
16
things and therefore he had the most catholic background to
1]
handle some thing as eomp lex a9 the Warren Comnisslon , not in
12
exercising executive power , but working on behal € of the
8 13
<
Dfrector and all the Directorates and everything pertaining
14 C
to the Warren Commission He i9 a tidy individual And in
1 5
fact Mr Belin has made 3 great deal of use of him in the
{
6
Commission s business , and he 1s the one that had done all the
1 '
digging for the Commigs ion , on , a whole 8erieg of
le
matters that I am not familiar with
1
19
But my point to this i5 very difficult to
8
i 5 that the question 0 € Nosenko created 3 very L explain
divfsion in the ife of a ] 1 counterintelligence as to great
7 27 with
bona fides , as in al] ques tions of when are dealing
1
2
double [dentification agents there i $ always dispute
2
ine up the order 0f batt e here Our
But 1et me just
TOP SECRET
H# Jvyy Page
they
and on 90
and You
You
==================================================
Page 76
==================================================
15
TOP SECRET
L
Chlef of the Sovfet Dfvision accepted the fact that the man
:
wag 8 provocation _ Hig Chfef of Counterintelllgence accepted
2 1
the fact that the man was a provocation _ 1 3
Mr Schwarz DO you mean provocat lon, or provlding
'1
false information?
5
Mr Ang leton An Agent Provocateur
6
I said he was false. My man gafd he was falge And lt
isn t a parrot affair, each one reads che game stuff and
Sv
analyzes come to thefr own concluslon And Golftzen,
9
who de fected _ based only on the Geneva , first encounter in
] 0
Geneva , not the defection, had predfcted In advance that
{ because of the enormfty of his defectfon they would gend a
1 2
provocateur into the West to destroy and mutilate his leads
8 13
} So it was a question of awaiting, you might say , who
14
knocks on the door And here 15 Nosenko
15 2
Now since then the Chfef the Soviet Division who is
16
~ longer there, has recanted in a way the Ins pector
1 %/
General went into al this he 19 today the NIO dealing in
1&
Soviet Affairs , the National Intelligence officer on Soviet
12
i A€fairs And his counterintelligence man , a fellow named
20
Pete Bag ley , who i $ the brother of the two Admirals Bagley ,
2 [
and one of the best men we had , left che Agency and is now
j 22
in Belgium in private life And I can 9o a] [ the through 1
2:,
these other people who have been dispersed Dut che record
2'1 {
will clearly ref lect that the preponderance of a] [ individuals
25
TOP SECRET
HY
and
1 1
of
no
19
way
==================================================
Page 77
==================================================
16 TOP SECRET:
75
7
Has that Nogenko #a] sent on a migsfon _
1
:
Mr Schwarz . And provided false Information?
2 1
Now , 1s ft'your current understandlng tha€ what wag
1 5
Provided to the Warren Commigsfon wag the rah infomratlon
brought by Nogenko , or was the Harren Commfgsfon algo provided
5
wfth the opinion, o€ persons such a3 yourgelf and others a9 You
have recounted that he was providing fal8e informatlon?
7
Mr Angleton I don '€ think the Warren Commf88fon Kas
8
ever faced with che issue of the Jnterna ) isgue9 of
Golitien
9
or Nosenko
10
Mr Schwarz You first said that the information Wag
11
guppressed from the Warren Commission, and then gaid no
1
12
it is your unders tanding now
1 13
Mr Ang leton Well- the word suppresgion isn't the right
14
word , I said _ One went to argue che matter and 1t was agreed
15
:
by higher au thority that the information shouldn t be
16
Senator Mathias There was a value judgnent made as to
1 '1
the usefulness of the material?
Mr Angleton = That i5 right and not Eo do what the
1
19 %1
Soviet in our mind wanted uS to do , which eas to give lt
3
2'
prominence and have it come out as an of f icial part the 1
2
record and documents and articles , and 90 on
222
Mr Schwarz But your current unders tanding s that the
~
6 2.,
information was provided?
24
Mr Ang leton That wag class ified and never came out in
25
TOP SECRET
HW Jusjj
you
18
of
==================================================
Page 78
==================================================
TOP SECRET
76
1
public .
1 8
Mr Schwarz . But was neverthelesg provided to the
2 1
Comisslon? 1 3
Mr Ang leton It was made known to them in some fashion
4
Mr Schwarz Hag ft made known to them at the same time
5
that leat certain experts withing the Agency thought it
was false information?
Mr Ang leton I think, as I understand it now that in
spite o our feelings , either Helms or McCone made a
presentation of it_
10
Mr Schwarz But without mentioning your feelingg
11
certain experts thought that it was fal8e? 1
12
Mr Angleton I can t respond to that I don t know
8 13
} Mr Schwarz What about the information derived from
14
Golitzen, which indicated in your expert opinion that the
15 2
documents provided bY the Soviet Union were , I think You put
16
it, funny , or strange , or misleading , because they did not
17
include any reference to debriefing by Department 13, was that
10
informat ion provided to the Warren Commis sion?
8
19
Mr Angleton I don t know I don ' € think so But a11 8
20
I can say there 15 this, to be realistic_ No one would expect 1
2 1
the Soviet Government , regardless , to provide documents
; 22
secret documents , on Oswald , whether he was or was not their
1
23
agent _ And I say , I can 9o a]l the way back through history ,
24 :
the way they falsified the of ficial record , they had it with
25
TOP SECRET
HA
a€
1
==================================================
Page 79
==================================================
TOPYSECRET
1
the: Itallans In 1923, Conetatinople, and cabeb on dlplomatic
1
{ Issues, the complete thfng wab fabrfcated and 30 on , And 1_
2 1
there 19 no way testing them, the security 18 that
3
they.can t be tested .
1
So we are not under any Illusiong of expecting them to
5
8 tate that he went through the 13 Department , which agked him
6
the following questlons
7
Mr Schwarz . So you say that as far a9 that matter goeg
there is no possibflfty that anybody on the Warren Commission
9
Was fooled?
10
Mr Angleton _ I mean, I don't think anybody Was I
11
17,(
1
didn 't follow the Warren Commission, Rocha followed it, and he
{
12
wa9 running over there all the time , and S0 on
8 13
Mr Kirbow Let me ask There would have been no
14
reason why anyone on the Warren Commisson would have known
15
that a5 a matter of , everyday bus lnesg that they dfd in fact
{
16
run every defector through Department 132
1 7
Mr Angleton . I don ' t think we ever told them . But you
18
see, Allen Dulles that i8 what I am coming to I used to
1
19
see Allen Dulles regularly , and I was an advisor officially
8
20
to him on a lot of headaches , and I dida lot of leg work for 1
2 ]
him . And I regarded him as a very personal friend _ And I am
3 22
Executor of his papers , among other things
1
23
But the point I am coming to to try to give him
24 guidance 0€ what the jungle is around here in cerms of the
25
TOP SECRET
HA
of such
you .
is ,
==================================================
Page 80
==================================================
19
TOP SECRET
78
FBI '9 posItfon Mr Hoover 8 , and 00 on, B0 that he would
8
be more 8ensftfve to the things , no longer befng frector ,
2 1
that were no longer germaln hfs pogitfon on the matter L
Mr Schwarz. Wag there a connection be tween the FBI and
1
Oswald?
5
Mr Ang leton I don t know the full FBI story . I know
6
there was a tremendoug flap In che Bureau And one of the beg
men they had in my view is a profegs lona] & man called Burt
Turner , Kho I understand just got hlg law degree . And Burt
Turner wag one che finest men on Sovfet KGB activltles In
10
the US _ one the analyzts And he wag in the Washington
11
Field of fice - And it is my unders tandfng and thfs 19 1
12
basically hearsay , but from pretty sources that Burt
3 13
} Turner was handling che Oswald ore related matters at the time
14
the Pres ident made the trip down to Texas and that there was
15
:
some confusion that the Bureau had not turned over , or had
16
not taken enough initiative in turning over , al] the informa
17
tion on Oswala to the loca] police _ I had been told that
18
there was 3 black mark put against Turner S name and that he 1
19
8 confronted Mr Hoover and stated he was not going to Permit,
20
1
or have it be known to his children, that his negligence was
2] 1
respons ib le for the death of the President . And he Kas pretty
22
force ful about his position _ And as a result, this was
{ 2
{ expunged or some thing to that ef fect . And that is the reason
2 24
he went to the Wash ington Field Of f ice instead of staying i n
25
TOP SECRET
HW
and
to
of
of
good
==================================================
Page 81
==================================================
2 TOP SECRET
79
Headquartere
L And then he retfred = And I thlnk hfg retlrement had 8
1 2
some thing Eo do wfth thlg fact.
1 3 But thfg 18 a 11 by virtue hinde [ght wlth the thousandg
1 of cases And I cannot see any Nestern Intelligence service
5 sefzing on Eacts that Oswald will return to the US _ then
6 go Ing and saying , we will a 1l of thf8 , and we will send
7 lt to Texag
8 What I am try to gay , 19 that the difference in thelr
system . with the manpower and the computers , whfch are mainly
10 ours , and whatnot, a5 sftuation of that gort 1 8 automatfc And
11 we know enoughe about the Second Chlef Dfrectorate and the
{
12 controls , the total control8 , to know that 1f a Sovlet returne
2 13 automa tfcally, to any part of the Soviet Unlon he went, there
{
14 would be a dossfer that would go , and there would be als0 an
15 operational directive to him on check his ma il, to
16 do the following , and 60 on and to an agent near him
N
1 7 There wouldn t be any leaking anyth in the air on that
18 There would be tctal encapsulation of that individual until
2
19 it wag ceratin beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not sent
8
20) back as an agent
1
2 Mr Schwarz A moment ago 1n talking about the line-up ,
22 as I think You put it, of views on Nosenko You recounted the
1
23 views of a nuber of people And said that one Person
24 had changed hig mind or recanted subsequent ly And made
25 a reference in that connection to an Inspector Genera] ' 5
TOp SECRET
HW
of
and
get
ing
Put tap,
Put
ing
You
you
==================================================
Page 82
==================================================
TOPISECRET:
1
report = What Hag that report?
{
Ang leton . At one 8 tage Jn a ) 2 of thig and Jt wag
2 1
much later, after a] 1 the dubt gettled Helng the
1 5
Inspector General Hho had cone from the clandestfne 9 ide of
1
our bus lnes g , to institute I don ' t 1ike to use the word
5
inspection, it i9 Eoo authorftative to go Into the Nosenko
6
matter and see if there 1s anythfng there that he ghould know
7
because He lms is fully aware the gplft on thfg whole
question of bona fides , it bothered him, because I had
brought him In touch with Golftzen, he was fully ahare of
10
a)1 my activitles and travels and So on .
11
And S0 this person who was chosen began to interview
{
12
everybody and reopen the who le thing _ I mean , there were 21
8 13
{ safe leads of stuff if you really into all of the Golitzen
14
Nosenko and the other things that pertained , a9 I pointed
15
6
out to the Warren Commission, to the agfninity of what has:
16
happened , of 27 Years of experience of myself and my two
] 7
colleagues that these are the facts , that there are 20 cases
18
8 19
Mr Schwarz You said Warren Commission You mean 8
20
Rockefeller? 1
2
} Mr Ang leton Excuse me Rockefeller
22
There are 20 some odd cages that a counterintelligence
1
2:
{ of Eicer in our busfenss should know before even begins to
e 2::
his feet Ket
25
TOP SECRET
H#
Mr
got
of
and
and
got
and
he
get
==================================================
Page 83
==================================================
22
TOP SECRET:
L
Now , when Dr SchlesInger came In, and I started hearing
8
all o€ these thingg of manaenent by objectfve8 , and bynergiatf=
2 1
and & lot of other thingg , befng applfed to the forms which
1
we had developed _ I finally So frustrated that I thought
I take him up on his own thing So I got statlsticians
5
in:to take a ) 1 the safes and figure the 1inear footage of
safe drawer, all the way on through , and to computerfze
every
how long it take che norma ] case offfcer to come up to
this elenental s tage of being able to be launched
That Kag gort a preparatory bugine8g And
10
it out and they gafd it would cake 22 man years , we figured
11
meant that i € we were 100 percent incorrect, ft wou ld be 11
;
12
man years And that was s imply to apprige Schles inger , and
9 1 : Khat a])
Colby , who had never been in counterintelligence,
1 4
this problem was about They had the Idea of trang ferring
15
forth and all the rest it_ And I nver chose
people back and ?
16
in that job as a rule who had either been in the FBI
anybody
1 7
or had noc had very rich experlence in counterintelligence -
12
outside leaks to anybody in the business
And norma lly I kept
2
19
with me for 11 Years, Rocca Kas with
U I had men who stayed
6 26)
though they went into operational s itua-
me for 31 years even 1
2
and returned and So on tions abroad
1 2*,
because here wag an IG _ and
And I say this Lo you , 1
2
General , who had had a very lofty mission in Germany
1 Inspector
8
Khere we to have two or 300 new people
2
TOp SECRET
HI 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 84
art
got
would
out
would
they of
of
248
used
==================================================
Page 84
==================================================
23
TOP SECRET:
8 2
7
Mr Schwarz wa8 thlg Mr Ermlne?
1 8
Mr Angleton . No he was never brought_ He Wab Gordon 2 1
Stewart and he 19 retired Ar # a very able man, and a fIne 1
executive And I mean thls sIncerely . Ile 19 one of the
1
really top-notch men
5
But he a3 to undertake thfs burden And It Was a farce 6
n terms he would talk to people and get thefr viewg
7
and 90 on
8
when I went Lo the former Chfef of the Sovfet Dvision,
who was then stationed in Parig and thfs Is only hearsay ,
10
I never read the report the former Chfef of the Soviet
11
Divis ion stated , when I look back ft, Perhaps I have given
12
too much atitude to my subordinates And he wouldn t say yea 1 13
or nay , bue he withdrew his very firm g tatement of the past
14 1 1914446
that this man was an agent provocateur _
15 :
Mr . Schwarz Did the revfew concern In any Kay che
16
handling of the matter Hith the Warren Comigsjon?
] 7
Mr Angleton No , not my knovledge I mean , thfg
12
may be some thing _ I don t think I have evern seen the review 2
19
8 in fact, I don t know whether the review was ever in
20
the paper But I mention it 9imply 5o that you don ' t get the
1
2}
idea that it was just the CIA staff that had this view This
Y 22
was a view that was shared by numbers of people who had 1
23
1 dealings with Nosenko And I think the greatest authorfty of
9 24
a ] 1 is Golitzen himgelf _ who was In the XGB , and who knew
25
Top SECRET
HF
So
to
Put
==================================================
Page 85
==================================================
2
TOPSECRET
03
8
everything And he Ived there for 16 or 18 yYeare of hlg Iffe
8
Mr Schwarz Earller You mentfoned that you Kr
2 1
Harvey 1n touch with the Igraell' 9 during the Cuban bug Iness 1 5
And we have had a lot of tes tlmony about Mr _ Ilarvey , g0 we
are moderately well aware of hls activltieg
5
Mr Ang leton . I am sorry 6
Mr Schwarz Ne know who Mr Harvy 19 and we have had a
fafr amount of testfmony about gome of the thfngg he had done
What wag the connectfon between him and che Igraelf'9 during
the Cuban business?
10
Mr leton I will It very brlefly
11
Senator Tower What 19 the Cuban business speciffcally? 1
12
Kr Schwarz The witnesg used the expression Cuban
8 13
{ busines s I guess I should ask first, what do you mean by the
14 fkd
Cuban bus iness and second , wag 1s the connection between Mr
15
Harvey and the Israell/ 9 on thfs matter?
6
16
Mr Kirbow You are really agking, what 18 che
17
irportance of putting him in touch Kith chen In relatlon to
18
Cuba? 1
19
i Mr Ang leton . B i 11 Marvey was in charge of taking
20
over the Cuban business the Cuban bus Iness being the 1
2 }
Clandestine Services activity into Cuba Nox what gtruck me
22
not having had any part of the of because of 1
23
differences with Bissell, Kas that ft seemed to me that both
2 24
the Cubans and the Soviets knew everything that wag being
25
TOP SECRET
put
Ang Put
Put
Pigs , Bay
==================================================
Page 86
==================================================
25
TOP SECRET
7
planned _ In other worda , they had the thing penetrated, and 1 {
It Wab foredoomed
1 2
Mr Schwarz Through the exfle comunity In Mfamf ? 3
Mr Angle= No through Soviet agents and everythlng
1
and So on, there was no cover or second Investigatlon or 5
anything &
6
So when Bfll took over In the Cuban business then I 7
decided that since we were very close frfendg that I would
to help hlm out by getting him a source totally unknown
to everybody_ And I went to the Israelfig And I had chen
10
assfgn a man to Havana , whom I happened know very w ell
11
a
He was born In Bulgarfs_ Ile can speak Rusgfan and the Balkan
12
countries languages 19 today thelr genior man on Soviet 8 13
} Intelligence He was a young officer 1n the dayg I am speak-
14
of And he was gent to Haana , whch meant that here he
15
:
was the communlcationg were from him In a one tlme
16
pattern, I mean total security , from Havana to Tel Aviv, to
17
me, and from Me to Bfll And no one knew of his existence
18
or his identify , except Harvey and myself , and of courge , 2
19
8 Dick Helms
20
Mr Schwarz McCone?
1
2
Mr . Angleton _ I can t remember whether yes , McCone
22
would have know but he wouldn : have been interested 1
2
{ What I am trylng to say knew
24
Mr . Kirbow Helms knew because he was DDP
25
Top SECRET
HW
ton
try
to
He
ing
and
7
is , he
==================================================
Page 87
==================================================
26
TOP SECRET
85
1
Mr Angleton . He knew, becaube even bafore I went Into
1
8
thfs I told him what I wag goIng to do , and he agreed ,
2 1
so on .
3
And also I wanted 8 person, because there was a radio
1
gofng to be Put Into Havana , and let somebody gay we need a
5
radio in Havana , or drop bome men In. And then the point 19 ,
6
I get the radio to Tel Avlv, to Havana then put lt
someplace and then tell hfm, you go to guch guch 2 place
8
and find the radio, and then have bome men come In and call
9
some men to make contact, th the vlew that I couldn't trust
10
the whole setup
13
So many a long period of time thlg worked perfectly
12
This individual establfshed his cover They only had two or
0 13
three people in the Embas BY there He would go to a
14
Hungarian restaurant where the Sovlet officers would also go
15
And he would spot one of the waiterg or a headwater who was ~
16
Jewish and it wouldn t be long before he would say , You are
17
from the Israell Embagsy , and pretty boon one thing led to
1&
another , hfs production was without question the greatest 2
19
3 production there was
20
Well, it So complex in names and geography , and S0 on 1
2 ]
that is when I came to the point that I brought Harvey
Vi 22
together secretly with thig Indfvidual the only person I 1
22
in touch wag an Igraeli; in thfg context So later on the
2 24
Soviets come out with the statement , 1s Bill Harvey on the
25
TOp SECRET
MY 50955 DocId:32423393 Page 88
and
1
and and
and
wi
for
and
got
Put
1
==================================================
Page 88
==================================================
28
TOP SECRET
1
with It lookg blg today to You, but when You think of what
1 8
the Agency` 9 efforts were at that eime In the Mlanl babe with
1 2
all the boats and the blggest Navy In the world , and 4ll the 1 5
rest, a lttle thing Involving one man Waa no€ a thing chat
1
You went up and made a fuss to Mr McCone about
5
Mr Schwarz Dld You know Mr Harvey pretty well, Wag
6
he someone you knew?
7
Mr Angleton Very well Indeed In fact, I jugt called
8
him the other hig mother died _
Schwarz I heard that _
10
Did You know anything about hfs uge ,of underworld
11
figures in connection with {
12
Ang leton I know the allegatlons
1 13
Mr Schwarz At the time did know of chae?
C, 14
Mr Ang leton I know one Incident
15
:
Hr . Schwarz
16
Ang leton Simply the Bureau , the FBI ran a
gurveiflance And Sam Papich, who wa8 the Lfalbon OEffcer
18
the FBI , who is now Head of the Criminal Commission in 12
19 Ivv3
Mexico , was ac my house around 10 0 'clock at night . And the 3
20
Washington Field office or Headquarters Miamf located Papich |
2 ]
at my house They were absolutely boiling _ becauge they had
4 22
surveiled the Mafia all the from California to National 1
2 3
{ Airport , and he had got of f the plane and was met by a man who
2 24
was the physical description 0f B{ 11 to a teel And thcy
25
Top SECRET
HW
day ,
Mr
Mr
You
only
Okay .
Mc
17
of
way
==================================================
Page 89
==================================================
29
TOPSECRET 08
thought ft wab Bll. And they were checking with Papich _
what do {
1 2 Mr . Schwarz That wa9 Mr Rosell , wag 4t?
1 3
Mr Ang leton . I thfnk ft was
4 Mr . Kirbow And the B1 11 you speak of here is Bi 11
5 Harvey?
6 Mr Angleton . Bi 1l Harvey .
7
So I could the of 0111 8 questlons to them And
8 I told him 5 I made a motion to hlg hand over the phone
and not to let them discuss It. And I 9ald , tell then not to
10 do anything untfl they hear from You
11 And that 15 what he told them , he Baid, gtand down on
12 thig and I will be back in touch
i 13 And then Bi l) told me the whole 9 tory In detail of how
14 he had over from Calffornla and followed him In this
15 thing , and how Harvey had him in hig car and he went oE f _ 2
16 Mr Schwarz That wag in 1973 shortly before Mr Harvey
17 went Lo Rome?
18 Mr Ang leton It wasn't shortly before, It wag , I thlnk
1
19 ce a ong tfme before
8
20 So chen I told Sam , I said , look , let 5. go very easy on
1
2 this because I didn't know anything about Bi 1 1 9 connection
22 with the Mafia and a]1 that, but I did know him Kell enough
21, to know that he was not a frivolous man , that this thing
24 happened , and keep in mind that ex-FB I men , contrary to public
25 opinion , were not very much liked by Mr Hoover when they left
Top SECRET
HY
to
gst get
Put
gone
put
qui
and
==================================================
Page 90
==================================================
TOPZSECRET
L
the FBI _
:
So I called B f 1l'$ house , I asked hfs wffe, 18 Bf 1l
2 1
around ? 1 3
And she said_ no , he 19 out to dinner tonfght
1
And I sa id , look , we have some very gerloug trouble
5
Would please tell me where I can locate him;
6
And she safd, he 18 at Duke Zeibert' g And I cal led
7
Duke Zeibert 9 and I managed to get him And I turned the
phone over to Papich, because I did not want to be on the
9
record showing that thfg was Ang leton , et cetera
10
And Papich talked to Bf 11 , ana actually I didn' t hear
11
the discussion It was some thing about, I will see You {
12
tomorrow 8 13
And Sam told the surveillance all the other people
14
to forget ft, and the Headquarterg would take over
15
6
And that is my knowledge , direct knowledge of Ahat
16
Anderson and everybody else has stated_
1 7
Mr Kirbow Mr Angleton , to your specific knowledge
18
did B i 11 ever attempt to use the excellent contact he had in
8
19
Havana to carry out the mission of eliminat che leader down 5
20
1
there , or try to any help out of him in that regard?
1 2 ]
Mr Ang leton _ Ke knows that I would have cut his throat
22
Mr Kirbow That would have jeopardized your entire
7 23
contact with the Israeli s ?
24
Mr Ang leton Yes sir
25
TOp SECRET
H#
and
you
and
ing
get
==================================================
Page 91
==================================================
TOPESECRET;
Senator Tower _ Ne wfll take 8 recobb for about two
minutes while we go. uP and vote _
:
1 2 (A short recess wag taken)
1
Senaeo5 "Toxerp @natbe~secord
Mr Schwarz
Schwarz I don t have any thing more
Senator Tower have read thls , and Szulc 98Y,s In
this gall this is a gal ley of the Szulc articiee Jn
Penthouse:
"Although @he details the Igracllenuclear enterprise ~
are still top secr it i9 known that che wake of the
1956 Suez war the Eigenhower Adminil ation resolved Lo
1
2 provide Igrael with al Pess ible help in developing an atomic
The Israells had Iehe eneoretical knowledge , but they 1
weapon .
'needed technological suppore their Dimona nuclear regearch
5 center in the Negev Desere
c
6 According to the 0 intelligence sources the CIA was
N
charged with the respensibility of roviding this support to
the Israelig
2
DO You haVe knowledgc chat the CIAYas charged With
6
responsibilieies?
1
Mr ngeton Abso lutely Eo the contra
cor Tower ~Ang leton directed the e ?fart?
Ang leton_ False
Senator Tower That it totally false?
2
Mr Ang leton That is total ly false
TOP SECRET
HW JuyJs Page
You
Nee
of
such
1
==================================================
Page 92
==================================================
TOP SECRET
8
1 "Several nuclear sclentiots were secretly Jent toSGr ae )
{
to Kork wfth Dlmona aclentists .
2 1
Mr Ang leton _ False I will Interject here cthat the 1
Freneh sent 400 a9 a matter of the orfginal dea1 with the
Israel Ais Eo Dimona
Sena Tover The reference here 8 to nuclear weaponry
And this means sent by the CIA , as nterpret It.
Mr Angletont It 1s false
Senator Tower The most umportant of them, according
to intelligence gourcea wa Brftish-born physLclst, an
10
Anerican citfzen working ror the US Government In Waghington ,
11
with special esote 4es to the CIA_ 1
12
Mr Angleton The alegatlon 1s false.
8 13
Senator Towe The answer to: your previous question woul
14
cover that one 1 aggume
15
:
Persons ose to Angleton have conf irmed chls account in
16
recent intei iews Reflecting Ang leton Own posit Ion, hoveve
1 7
they haveeadenied asgertions from other soukces that the CIA
18
team made fissinoable material Plutonimum available Eo
8
19
the Lsmaelles from United States stocks :
20 1 Mr Schwarz Ag a5 your are concerned that
2 }
< tement right or wrong?
22
Mr Ang leton I am saying , when he says deny ic deny
{
5 21
it
{
Senator Tower I think it was taken care of in that
25
Top SECRET
H#
91
JR
now
and
far
==================================================
Page 93
==================================================
TOPSECRET
33
8
18 where a1l the tione aro raibea
gecond paragraph ,
{ CIA woula be hard to trangfersany
Really , the
1
wfthout the knowledge of tre Atomfc
f1ssionable materfals
1
Isefon, would 1t not?
Energy Comm
hat the CIA I
Sir, I can assure Yow
Mr Angleton
what the word figslonab le means anymore
don rea) ly know
the atomfc energy We have atomfc
There 19 use of
battery
materfals , I think the
Senator Towec By ffssfonable
be converted to weapong
reference here 19 tha cou
10 in my whole
leton . I don t categorlcally
Mr Ang
11 Involved fssionable material
in the CIA_ tring ever
history 1
12
O9
speculations regarding leakage
intelligence about t
except
13
and So forth
14 words the CIA doesn t have
Senator Tover In other
6
15
overtany stocks of ' Eissionabl ma
terials independently
control
16
MI Rgleton No
1 7 CIA
acquire
Tower
And therefore the
hator
through the knowledge the Atomic
such materialg except
3
19
3 Energy
Commission?
20 I hate to nit ck , but
8 leton That is right
Mr Ang 1
2
that there was a problem in the Agency
I to s mply state
say ,
somebody S imply
once where You have ,
7 ma terials , and therefo
I have access to
fissionable
state,
24 it raises a
big policy question
i f it is a covert thing and
25
Top SECRET
H#
quee
Put
Uka
much
1
not ould
18
want
approach you
==================================================
Page 94
==================================================
TOP SECRET
how do we deal with those klndg of cab0b $ where someone
{
a llegedly , a conffdence man, or whatnot , who wantb to
2 1
You the stuff? The Furpoge then 489 to penetrate , Oretry to 1 5
penebrate And I wonder If there wagn € 8 questiennz at one
1
stage to what He do about ft, and what the damgers would
5
1f we the dlplomatlc pouch , and chere are thousands of
questfons _ hd i€ did happen In the Far Bast And lt Was a
falge case , confidentfal case . But it happen _ There was
an offer to sell uigkatomlc flsgionable material or bome thing_
But my point 18 there has never been inftfative to my
10
knowledge , or an interese of the IA in any shape or forin
11
wanting any fisslonable ma 85 1
12
Senator Tower Dav 1 13
Mr . Aaron . Two small point 8 Mr Szulc gald that "In
14
effect Mr leton said at one poln that should I gurface
15
:
Mr . Mann S name Dr Mann 9 name , he g0 ag far as to
16
comit suicide
17
Dfd Youdever 8ay that Mr Szulc?
18
Mr_ Angleton I don t think I said 1 him But in 1
19
a che backdlof my mind after I left you what I think
20 {
I toldmYou maybe I didn't tell you maybe told Colby ,
1 2 ]
chat 9 what bothers me the Royal Canadlan Mouniced Police
2*
11 have an open espionage case in whfch a report @ajf theirs 1
23
Hleges that ther Dr Mann being present or some thlng
"9a
hat
24
someone tried to cut his throat in Philby 5 house in
TOp SECRET
HW
be
NQK
Ang
Umay
to
Kae
and
Yac 1 ei
==================================================
Page 95
==================================================
35
TOp SeCRET:
94
8
Wabhlngton, when Phflby wab statloned there . Now , #~hethe
8
we had the report or not I don '€ know So I am a 1lttla
2 1
cnfused ag to that Btatement Because I don t thfnk the 1 5
quegtion of usfng Mann 6 name came up other than the
1
contex of the allegatlon that Mann wag sent me bould
5
chls mean E ft came out termg of the Hea of Services
6
who had cal Ied for phrageg , British , Freneh cetera, and
7
they would hav hhig confirmation , one_ they know anythlng
about my Igraell activities now andEhen the most damaging
would be the entire nformation Mann and Philby , et cetera
10
Mr Aaron Let me Dus t se one other segment of hfs
11
testimony: "Ang leton sald @fter recounting the story the 1
12
transfer of atomic technerog Mr Szulc went on and said ,
1 13
Ang leton said that he 33 rathe eaken back by this information
14
safd that in effec he could conff STT it Kith correctfons
15 7
one , the timeframeSwas wrong , thac it Ja 5 not the early 60 ' $ ,
16
but indeed the te 150 ' 9 after the Sue war and number two
1 ?
that as far 8 he wag concerned there Vas delivered by the
12
CI^ _ or one to his knowledge any Eigsiona e material such 1
] 9
: a5 plutonium or other ma terial
20
Angleton I don t follow that at all 1
2]
Mr Aaron Did make those two corrections
J 22
Angleton I don t understand what You are 1
2"
Mr Aaron . Did You mnake those two correct
2 2
Mr Ang leton I don t understand what you are saying
TOP SECRET
HW
and by'
in
et
Ner
of
you
ing Mr
ions?
==================================================
Page 96
==================================================
36
TOP SECRET
95
7
Senator Tower He 18 reading actually whac he Jsend
8
a Hfttle earlfer to You was In termg of trying to briing out
1
that You did not agree wfth hls story , that You aslav not
1
aoufirm the validity ft.
1
r leton That part 1s correct I am not follow-
5
thistlast part you are reading _
Mr Nason Let me show It to You 'nd You read Jt
Mr Schwar z Would you ident the Page and the 1fne?
Mr Aaron The page 1s page 40 begInnIng a€ line 19 and
running to the endeef che page
10
Mr Ang le 3a4 In e ffect he could confir it,
1]
that 19 che "t business {
12
Mr Aaron Start bac further and get the general
11 13
story _
14
Mr Angleton Thig is false on page 40 , from line 8 ,
;
15
"Mr Ang leton de1d me that essenti thig Information was
16
correct, ha 1s absolutely false _
17
And fever made any such statement hat I could confirm
18
it Jiyne5 19 and 20 , Angleton said he was: Jreally taken back
8
19
j and ef fect he could confirm the two correcelons That is
20
fallse 1
2 }
Mr. Aaron 1 think that covers it_
v 22
Mr Ang leton And this i9 false: or more 1
23
distinguished pure scientists or physicists whose services
9
were a vailable to the US Government" that Is totally fa
TOP SECRET
HW
of
Ang
ing
JBR
ton
01
"one
==================================================
Page 97
==================================================
TOPRSECRET
96
Mr Aaron. Let Ma abk one last queetlon .
;
Mr . Angleton. When I bay technlcal a8g[stance , 49 a 1
guite dlfferent matter. 1 5
Mr Kirbow You do not mean technlcal a88Latince Jn che
nuclear ffeld whatever?
5
Mr Angleton He knew what I wak btaex ng W88 thfs. 'tuf €
that hag cone out in volumes Sadat' g Gesume of CIA 8 help
to the Igrae 3 whfch was accurate
Senator Tomer By technfcal 'istance here , 4g I 0
understand it, he Imeans technicai as9fgtance and nuclear
10
veapong development
11
Mr Angleton Tha Ight _ And that ig deliberately ;
12
on his part a misstateme 6f the fact _ And that 1s what I 8 13
c {
am trying to say
14
Senator Tower He did admi to technical assistance in
15
;
terms of intelligence?
16
Mr Angleton ft wasn '€ a questlon of my admitting ,
1 7
I told him that it Wab well-known that inxthe whole ffeld of
18
ELINT and nany things , that we have worked 'esely with the 8
19
8 Israelis
20
enator Tower But not specifical ly , technfe
1
2 ]
assistance and nuclear weapon development?
22
Mr Ang leton That subject wasn' t in existence
2:,,
Mr Aaron Mr Ang leton , 19 it posgible that one sojrce
24
of this story could be alleged operations by the Israelis
TOP SECRET
H# Page
Uek of
No ,
==================================================
Page 98
==================================================
TOP SECRET
97
}
Intelligence service In the US In regard to the efforta
8
2
acqufre nuclear technology or material? 1
L 5 Mr Ang le No
1
Let me Just state my own feelfng about S Ome thf8 _
5
After ne ta lked co me about having all those great sources
which wer better than Mirsch 8 , he 8afd, I 190 have talked
to Israell intelligence. Well, I knew rlght away chat that
wag a 1le . I 3a after 22 Years work Kfth gome People ,
would have beerithaving me out bed at 3 In the mornfng
In other wordg , In 2 2 Yearg I have never known them to withhole 19
anything germa [n to our mo ctivity. that for American 11
1 jounalists to go and t8 Pump thirgg out of me regarding 12
the subject , he wouldn avergot home before that i5 the 1
13
first thing . That is fact And he said this Israeli 14
fellow said somethi about, some Ing I € dlscusg , or 15
:
words to that efffect, I can t remembe that part of it 16
So there In ' t much more to say about that 17
Mr _ Aajon Were there Igraeli Inte lligence efforts in 18
27 che US the 1960 5 or at any time ained acqufring ther 19
i nuclear technology or information that would have a bearing
20 1
on S story?
2 ]
Mr Ang leton There have been e fforts j 22
1 countries co acquire technical knowledge in thfg couatry , and 2 ,
{ that doesn t exclude the Igraelis
Mr Kirbow DO you have specific knowledge 0f instange s
TOp SECRET
H# 93 Page
ton
NIK
they
Eo. So
try
Ghe
don
ei
many many
==================================================
Page 99
==================================================
OP SEcRET
7
Whife You were emp loyed wIth the Agency , Mr Angleton?
8
belleve Chat might be 8 fafr questlon.
1
SenatortTower In your capacity a8 Heaas,of Counter- 1
Intelligence _ d Ic ever come to aetention did You
ever have any certain noxledge thatgtorae ] 1 agents were
actually tryfng to acgufre niiclear secrets in the US , atomfc
secrets?
Mr Angleton have to respond to that?
Mr Kirbg Would You lfke to go of f Eherecord 0
moment Chairman
Senator Tover can 9o off the record
1 (OEE_@negreserd-dpiscusszon)
Senator Mathias Mr Chairman , I would suggest that
8
$
perhaps we defer that subject for the moment I am gure we
C 14
will be mee ting with Mr Angleton again _
15
:
Senator Tower Then, too, we can the FBI matter in
16
the meantime
1 ?
I have just a couple of queationg that I would appreciate
it i € Mr Angleton would give 4s his evaluationg as an expert
1
19
on And they 9o back to hls testimony relatlve to the Kennedy
8
26
assassination 17
2
As I recall, You safd that imediately after the assa55i -
22
= nation Golitzen' on his own initfative comunfcated with You
~ 2 2
Jnd advised that it was norma l Practfce for a defector who
2 '
had a military background to be processed in Depa rtment 137
25
TOP SECRET
H# 50955 DocId:32423393 Page Iu
your
N12e
We
get
1 8
you
==================================================
Page 100
==================================================
TOP: SECRET
99
7
Mr . Angleton _ Interrogated _ or ProcesBed; 1 8
Senator Mathfag And thae the Implicatlon certainly of 2 1
thls Wag that Oswald wag an ex-Marine , and had been through 1 5
thig process , and that therefore at least that he mght have
1
been acting withfn the context the Soviet plan , i3 that 5
right?
6
Mr Angleton That is the thrust what he wag trylng
o say . Mis English is such that It 18 very dffffcult _
8
Senator Mathias . I understand _ But then gome Yearg 9
later my recollectfon 19 that You 9afd It was 1967 or 10
1969 you learned that the KGB had spent sIx month
11
{ employment of thelr top operatorg in the Investigatfon of the
12
Kennedy assassination, and wouldn't thfs fact in your mind 8 13
} negate the implicaton of the: original Golitzeh call or that
14
they were involved?
15 c
Mr Angleton I want congratulate You, because that
16
man 19 a man who i3 also a guspect of Nosenko
17
Senator Mathias You Mean in 19677
1E
Mr Ang leton Just to show you the ground You are 1
19
a treading on, Golitzen gave uS informatjan regarding the
20
Penetration of our own organization = And Ke worked down to an
1
2 [
identity And the FBI disagreed with us And I am talking
28
about not a few minutes but severa] veeks and nonths of work
; 2:
And the Rureau S attitude was, have the wrong man, and
C 21
che a] legation therefore does not affect the CIA _ and we
25
TOP SECRET
Jl 101
of
of
in
of
to
you got
==================================================
Page 101
==================================================
TOP SECRET
0
advl8e that You Bend It co' the Army .
{
And I mIght add , the man who wrote that memorandum wa8
2 1
the Burt Turner I mentioned who wag one of the competent
L 5
FBI analysts So ft was n 1imbo And we Btated that "X"
1
was the penetratlon agent , and the Bureau refused to accept
that And 1n 1967 a Soviet on whom we had a dos8fer on thf
thing , because he wag once statfoned 1n India, and therefore
we knew who he wag, all the rest of It with an unknown
coming eo 09 a3 Nosenko was, he was a real man , had
of' survefllance on him, and So on . And he came, and he
10 73:
alleged he was a .' TDC , temporary duty in Washington
11
here and he established contact with che first Mrg , Helms
{
12
And eventual ly I was called to take the case . And he stated
8 13
{
that among his misgiong co the US was to effect the redefection
14
or the return to the Soviet Unfon of a man , and that man was
15
6
the man whom ve had identfffed a3 a Sovlet agent . And he went
16
into the whole background _ that thfs man wag one of the
17
that they had ever had , and he Has in highest 'grade illegalg
18
our Agency
8
19
So this had a tremendous Impact on Burt Turner , because
i
23
of the two interroga t ing officers And I can' t
he was one
1
2 profess ional pride _ but for a man 0f his
talk to You about
22
tence to have done it the wrong Kay, that hurt
compe
5 22
tion injected which was , what do You know
So I had a ques
24
about George Blake?
25
TOP SECRET
HA
and
Yearg we
and
==================================================
Page 102
==================================================
OP SECRET
8
So
1
And then hig rebponge wab, he bay8 , we think he 18 dead =
8
2 hwere 19 8 man who 18 8uppoBed to be Speclal 1
1 5
Assistant to the Head of Counterintelllgence In KGB whoge
1
mother was 8 secre tary Litvinov, and he comes therefore
5
from the arlbtocracy , as Nogenko doe8 , because his father wag
6
the Minister of Marftlme Affairg And there 19 a btatue of
Nosenko 9 father And Golftzen had told that men chosen
8
for very dangerous migsiong of penetratlon and duplcity came
the arfstocracy Everyone trusted them , and their fathers
and thelr famflles are heroes of the Sovfet Unfon 10
So here was thfs man who 9afd 39 to Blake , we think he i9 1]
1
12
dead .
Two to three weeks later is when Blake ` escaped from 1 13
Scrubb 5 Woods to the Soviet Unfon _ Now, 1f he had come to 14
the US to exfitrate as the Special Asgfstant to the Head of 15
Counterintelligence ,
to exfiltrate a person who worked In 16
the West ag an illegal the end of World War II , and
17
gradually worked into 48 , why vouldn t he have known the
18
C16;
1 exfiltartion Plans of George B lake , which would have been
19
i simultaneoug because he wag a Headquarters man here on TDC 20 1
So we handled him for six or seven weeks
2 ]
And some 0f the most telling Parts of the interrogation
22
1 was that when he went back to the Sovfet Union he would have
2}
access to archives And what was on our mind, and what
2 2''
cryptonym that we wanted him" to work up and thig would
25
TOp SECRET
Gul8;
Now
to
48
from
from
==================================================
Page 103
==================================================
TORSECRET;
2
8
relate to the thfrd part of the damage part on Golitzen {
what dld Golftzen
1 2 that did not know he knew? What
1 5 agents In the West could be under our control as 8 rebult of
1
Golftzen 8 disclosures regarding those thingg?
5 And You can see the tremendous quality thle man had of
6
almost getting from our man those four or crytonymg
7
whlch would have told them what wanted €o know , because
there are cases are not sure 8 whether he knows or doegn ' t
know , and So on And thege are officlal8 , and So on _
10
So wasn 't given that He wag gfven gtJff that was
sort of mediun low level stuff,
11 you couldn' t call ft ch{cken
feed but we never told him we disbelfeved 12 In him And he
8 safd , i f You do those things for me I have 13 an opportunity ,
{
14
becauge of my mother and So on, to become Head of the Anerican
Department of the KGB _
15 :
16
And the other he wanted . we took him to the
Soviet Agency and we came out later contacts , 17 and he stated
there was a telegram there and he had been 18 requebted to
1 acquire a]l the information Poss ible on the whereabouts 19 of
U Golitzen and Nosenko And I was actua in Wisconsin 20 And 7
I called my Deputy long distance and I said , if there is 2 1 any
proposal Put up by that individual that: would 22 expose and I
J us2 the crytonym name of Golitzen dor; ' t .
23
A week later 19 when he got to Moscow and he 241 sent a cable 9
to te]1 us that he can give them word on 25 everything on
TOP SECRET
H Jiydy 093 page
knoh they
five
they
they
he
{
thing Kag,
for
1ly
==================================================
Page 104
==================================================
TOP SECRET
103
1
Golftzen.
8
2
Coming back to what you 8tated , wfth our 1ftmu8 paper and 1
5
with our analysls of him, He treated hlm 83 a walk-In, a9 a
part o f the thing to confirm Nosenko 8 bona ffdes , and the
5
bufld-up . And he 1s che one who gave the full_descriptlon of
che fact thae for s1x monthg the Place was Immoblllzed for thid 6
investigatlon, of all the high level a]) over the works , 19
the way he put it_
Senator Mathias _ You contrasted the way that the Russfang
treat a returned defector , ahd the way we treat chem And
10
1n that connection, to your knowledge
wag Oswald every 11
1 interrogated when he teturned from Russa?
12
Mr Angleton I don t know I Probably would know but 1 13
I don t know whether the military normally that would fall
14
withln the jurisdlciton of the military, since he Kas a 15 :
military man who defected _ So I don t know che answer o that
16
Senator Mathfag _ What about from Cuba?
1 ?
Mr Angleton. I can 't anawer that
18
Senator Mathias Or at any time? 8
19
8 Mr Ang leton . I think the Dureau interviewed hlm
20 1
Senator Mathias The Bureau , not the CIA?
2 !
> Mr Angleton. I am certain we never did , no
22
1 Senator Mathias Dut You think the FBI did?
23
Mr Ang leton That fs_ just my sensation that they did_
2.1
Senator Mathias wifl follow that
2 :
TOp SECRET
H# JDY age I0J
1
1
We up .
==================================================
Page 105
==================================================
TOP SECRET
104
1
Thle 18 the very last queation. You referred to ffles
0
2
that are malntafned On pereons who have bome contact wIth the 1
1 5
Sovlet Union and the Sovlet nationale And I would like to
Purgue that In a pergonal way .
4
5
About two Yearg ago Arbotov was In thls country , and he
came to lunch In my office. And we had geveral members of
Congress there Would thfs klnd of thing be 8 matter of
pgr
record?
Tzo Ongletono Zi Tmesy WAB Qm? Gedhntccl coverage Em
Sovlet EmbasSY , then my answer would be Ye8 10
~senator Mathfas My recollectlon he came Yien one 11
Person wiehahim, whoge name I don t remember
12
Mr Angleten If the Bureau had him under survefllance 1 13
and he cane here now , I am gettIng onto ground I don ' t
14
know the newspaper Bafd Mr Hoover gave an order that the
15 0 :
'Hill wag off-base, and Knen the Sovfet came here he Wab never 16
urvei lled , and whom he saw @s unknown. That 19 what the
17
28- newspaper safd _ My own observaton woud be In any technfcal
18
1 coverage of instariat the door 0 an indfvidual , would
19
i result in dossierezon all People who hadicontacts , i€ the
20 1
man was suspe: or there 15 a reason.
2 [
Senator Tower Excuse me are talking about a
22
1 Sovie pergon visiting members here on che Hill?
2:,
enator Mathias_ Yes And whac I am trying to getsat
8 21
the circumstanceg under which a file dossier might
25
TOp SECRET
HA Ju9jm Page 0
1
19 ,
ion, an
You
1
or
==================================================
Page 106
==================================================
6
TOP SECRET
105
1
opened on 8 member of Congre8& , I offered myself 80
8
guinea pig that Arbatov lunch as 8 starting pOInt
2 1
At thfs point my questfon 19 on Purely hypothe scal 1 5
pO I plan to go next week wfth the Senate g-ouP whfch f5
maklng parliamentary visft Russla And Bee Arbatov
5
In Moscow would assume It would be 1fkel Would that
6
become a coneinuing entry In 8uch 8 dogsfe a9 far 48 You know
7
Mr Ang le We don t have any coverage Jn Moscow
8
Senator Mathas Ig that the kfna of thing that
Mr . Angleton - are not 1ving Jn a very ideal world
the Agency We can even process the hard material .
h 1
Senator Mathias S i$ a hypothetical questlon, 1
h2
let me make it even more hypgthetical Let 5 Bay our mfssion ,
11 13
instead of visiting Moscow ts Rome or Paris or gomeplace
14
where it is very easy Gor You toceperate And chere Here
15
F
meetings with Russiang who were knoun to have Vfgitfed me in
16
Waghington woula that be the kInd thing whfch would
17
to a Congressional Efle?
18
Mr ton I 1magine the Bektish MI-5 , though , 1
19
i because 0 the Russians in London, would Pass through liaison
20
to us there was some thing suspicious would pass through
1
2 ]
3 repert on the mee ting _ And we have examples here Czech
V 22
de tor told u5 about a member of Parliament , a sowiet agent _ 1
22
what the cryptonum was , and how he was recruited And
9 24
have got other cryptonyms on British members of Parliameme
25
TOp SECRET
HW
and
1de
to
NGQ
in
get
No Ang?
Ee
You
==================================================
Page 107
==================================================
TOP SECRET
106
7
that You have nt then Identffled _ He know what papzed
8
or some of the stuef which Vas pagged . 2 1
1 5
Senator Mathfag Assuming a ffle wag_ Bet up on that
lunch two years ago 1
5 Mr Angleton . The ffle wouldn t be 9e up there on the
fact wfeniyour name on ft, It would be the Sovfets , and
you would be busled In the fle , whfchzwould probably be that
thick , of that Sovlet actfvity In US And there would be
the fact that he was here, and that he Kent to New York, and 9
he did chis or that =
10
Senator Mathias _ So Ghat wouldn E show uP In Muthlas'
11
1 file , that would show up anz rbatov ffle?
12
Mr Angleton _ Tha 19 That 18 the way It i$ 1 13
supposed to be And lhe time #here I can see 8 Eile
14
would be opened on an American Congressman or Senator would
15
:
be where there was a substantlal basf9 fo opening up that
16
file But tha wouldn € be at the Inftfatlve of the CIA, .t
1 7
would be a tter that would go to the FBI and Ghe Attorney
12
1 General nd then there would be somebody the ennate or 19
8 the Congress who would be contacted and notified So on 2c 1
And think Mr Hoover 5 practice was that he would earn
2]
th ough his own sources that a person who 1s not sood wa
5 22
1 to have lunch with a Congressman or wag cul tivating im ,
2
and he would pick up the money or this is what they say
9 24
And I think this is the way he handled it he would 9 imply
TOp SECRET
HF
ehey
per
righ
only
in
ing
==================================================
Page 108
==================================================
TOP: SECRET 107
call him on the phone and Bay & I thfnk you should knov the
{
following , and there would be 4 notffication that Mg Mhoover 1
motiffed , et cetera He called me once when there wagn' t 5
enugh tlme factor for him to gend 8 letter to ne He said _
You @e dofng some thlng at such and guch an ghour , you Bhould 5
know that th8 man L8 a homogexual or bovon and 80 on And
It may haverbeen useful to change the courbe In 8 hurry . But
ft is formal Eed In the Bureau. When Mr Hoover Intervened
8
on thoge thlngs t wab efther a questlon of time or 4 9 ~
question of emphas78 But the formal Part goeg on regardless ,
10
if a person, regardlese of he i8, 18 Involved , or 19
L
11
{ passed a document or come8 uP In a telephone tap, or
12
number of things chei record on Jt. 1 13
Senator Mathias oeher words You are saylng what a
14
polftical frlend mne once safd that you don't get news
1
15
unless You make hews?
16
Mr Angleton That i8 one o1e looking at it.
17
Senagor Mathias That 13 all, Mr Chalrman .
18
1 Mr Ang leton I want to commend you in on thac
19
i question , because that fixes several things _ Because if there
20 1
Ismone thing I regret abaut leaving the Agency, is che
2]
tnresolved cages And that 1s one of the biggest , because we 5 22
1 know So much about that Person when he was In Indfa. he
Was the most sophisticated , cultivated,' high level inte ll genc
person
25
TOP SECRET
1
NBR
any
In
way
aga
==================================================
Page 109
==================================================
TOPSECRET 108
L
Senator Baker _ What You do, Kr Angleton= to_
8
to rehabfftate the Agency In particular In counterinfellf-
1
gence capability , since You feel that Je 19 deterioFatlng ,
1
What thlngs in Particular would you do?
Mr Angleton My feellng 19 that the Agency hag to go
5
through the purgatory that chese ffre8 ~Ehat no man would
6
out and therefore let i6 be ghocking or whatever And
let a1l the polbtlcal repercusslong Cake Place , and 1f You go
8
to purgatory , my Cw 19 , the blgger the ffres , Ehe better
9
So my vfew 19 , let all come out And let people take the
5
10
I am no a belllever that an agency can have
consequences
11
two fathers And I don Jeieve Jn inferlorg reporting on
12
direecive And I don € believe that che their superiors by
8
%
13
Directtor has be responsive to two
Agency below the
14
authorities
15
:
Senator Baker What two authorities?
16
Mr Anglelan . I mean the Congresg and the Executive _
17
In other wogd3 1f Colby 19 asked , what @0- You know about
18
iew is that on Chile would yoy pTease ask the Whitz
Chile _ M 1
19
is what I crying to get a at least so
8 House And that
20
back with Colby after the Executive part has
then Ghey can come
1
2
what it might be But to throw the burden on the
tola Colby
22 v to a question on
Chile, gives hin he
Drector to respond
1
22
tion And someth doesn Geem
{ is always in that dual
2 And the lover you go in the Agency , evem to
to work that way
ToP SECRET
HW J9j Fae
would
JJsc Put
am
ing posf
==================================================
Page 110
==================================================
50
TOPSECRET 109_
7
my level, to be rebonb [Ve to more than one autholty 18 chaog
:
And I am not maklng any puns .
2 1
Senator Baker = To be respons[ble to the Congreds to L 3
the
1
Mr Angleton The word response 18 what dsturbs me 5
somewhat "becauge the secrets that we have ust been dlscussing
here are S0 armaln to everything in thle kcountry relating to
the world balanc of power and what the Sovlets wil strike
NgR
at, and what the role of detente 13 That 18 what I aM trying
9
to get at. The Executie Jn ether worde _ the Intelllgence
10
comunity has never realsy had o€ Peace In a way . When
1]
Hoover passed away , and Gra oame aboard , everyone in the
12
intelligence community believe now we can normalize thfg
1 13
situation It has never been norma ] before _ Mr _ Hoover never
14
attended an Agenc meeting . Mr Hoover never Permitted one
15
:
of his represeneatives to 9o beyond Zhi $ jurisdiciton question
16
And you cannot run a government that wa and You cannot run
17
counterintejligence that Kay . So when Mr Gray came co see
l8
Mr . He l and Helms called me In before him and gaid , what 12
19
i posi onn should I take , and I said , he wants to ome and
20
noxalize relations and he wants Eo reestablish ison . And
1
2 ]
said, I wouldn 't accept ft form him, they are the nes who
7 22
rok' it off . Therefore tell him that Khen he has read Your 1
23
correspordence with Mr Hoover , and revlewed a] 1 of that
he feel5 that he is capable of handling ft, that You will be
TOp SECRET
HR JvYJ Page
and
day
==================================================
Page 111
==================================================
51: TOPSECRET 110
1
3 prepared to 8f down and dlscusg the ques tlon Ifafson,
{
because Ifafson 1g a part of the questlon of penetratfon 1
and double agents and all the rest of It. 1
And In fact that happened , and everybody though we had
got captaln that didn't make admiral aboard whowfll settle
5
this . then we will have hls demfse
6
And than You had Mr Ruckelshaus come a3 88 acting
Dfrector And %hen the Watergate and allioe that _ So there
has never been 8 EEabflizing Eactor ngh (8 Government 89 it 5
relates to not couna erintellfgence alone but the Intellf-
10
gence community And now I amstrengly opposed to fessionals
1]
belng Dfrectors
12
I would say that a pro @sslona l Dfrector of the Agency 1 13
doesn t work, he doesn t have a @asig on the outside, or the
14
perspective _ And I think the RocheEeller Commissjon' g
15
observations were fi0e rate fn termseiof the Idea Ewo
16
Deputy Directors who have to be confirmed and whatnot And
17
I think that no directorate should be expected to follow the
18
nuts and bolts nd at the same time hand le the duties of 8
19
8 meeting and 11 the rest It and to Man eye inside
20
the business
7
21
Senator Baker What do you think of the Rockefeller
V 22
: Comission reports?
6 21
{ Mr . Ang leton I don t see anything wrong with it
2 24
Senator Baker _ DO you think it will work?
TOP SECRET
H paye
of
tiny
And
NJsk
Pro
of
of try keep
==================================================
Page 112
==================================================
52
TOP SECRE
Mr Angleton . I really don t know thle area . So I
{
not competent to apeak or go around seelng what w1ll happen
5
In Congress , Just on the sImple questfon of Chfle and the
1 `
@akages and the damage that 1s done to US psture abroad , how
much Ic does thig take? 5
6
Senator Baker. It wouldn't take many That 19 an argu-
mentativa tthlng _ 0GO
Mr Angleton All the cases wecare' dfscusslng , In the 8
hands of the people, and ourEfleg In the hands of the
wrong people _ iould have very clslve political impact upon 10
our elections That is what I mean, to be very frank about It
11
Senator Baker How would that happen?
12
Mr Angleton There are all kIndg of Information Which, 1 13
if it falls Into the wrong hands 6r should want use 14
it for their own Ulterior motives would be absolutely
:
15
damaging _
16
Senato Tower In other wards , this informatlon could
1 "
be used polftlcians a9 8 polftl Eootball?
18
1 Angleton _ Preclsely . But man who would do it
19
i danages
20 1
Senator Mathias Would you give an exanple?
2
(OEE the record discussion)
v 22
1 (Whereupon, at 6:05 p.m . the Comnittee was adjourned ,
2
{ subject to the call of the Chair.)
25
TOP SECRET
HA
1
of
ong
de
they co