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157-10011-10093 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date:10/06/93
Page: 1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMATION
AGEnCY SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER 157-10011-10093
RECORDS SERIES
AGENCY FILE NUMBER
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
FROM ROETHE JAMES Na
To FILE
TITLE
SUMMARY OF INTERVIEW WITH PAPICH SAM J.
DATE 03/05/75
PAGES 18
PAPICH
SASUBJEGTS
INTERVIEW)
{pls
DOCUMENT TYPE PAPER_ TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
4
CLASSIFICATION 5
RESTRICTIOnS REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS P
S
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 09/29/93
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS
SSCI Box 294 Folder 15
[R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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SECRET 7
During this period Pepich developed
a relationship With Jim Angleton
of Couterintelligence and found that he could work effectively with Angletcn _
In the early 1960 S the relationship between the tlo agencies Ivas probably
the best that it ever While some flaps continued to occur, both
agencies seened to be making an effort to learn the responsibilities and
jurisdiction of the other_
Relationships_Betkeen 1965 and 1970
During the Johnson Administration there was a deterioration or a cut in
the nuber of projects directed towards the Soviets Hoover S desire to
become engaged in extensive coun terintelligence Ivork lessened _ Many of
the FBI 5 Prograns to identify illegal aliens attempting to penetrate
the U. S . Governnent broke down _ Hoover became extremely cautious and
conservative in the area of counterintelligence_ Which greatly disturbed
Papich_ Iho felt strongly about the Soviet threat and who Was convinced
that strong counter-measures were_necessary _ For example Papichtried
LB
to_promote consideration Gor te zeceuiTeng @€ @ @op-Level Soviel @fEicial
28 @ CTA agenia Zlis wes { bel @ joinc CTA-FBI @eracionbbue Lt Was 8lepped
doww bY Hoovvero Fur eher, 8 picojosod joint @peretion Lnvolving sonsicvo
electronic co12rago 04 Sespected Soviet Waciivietes Was cejeeredg
During 1967 and early 1968 Papich saw no signs from Hoover that the pro-
grams and projects that Papich felt s0 necessary would be reinstituted.
Papich was receiving the message that his relationship with Hoover
was
coming to an end Papich Was physically and mentally worn out trying to
the two agencies working together In 1968 Papich wrote 8 polite
letter to Hoover expressing his concern Ivith Ihat Ias happening in the
area of coun terintelligence_ He appealed to Hoover to reinitiate some
of the effective programs aimed at Soviet penetration of the United States _
While Hoover was extremely angty at Papich for wri such a letter , he
did not fire him to the surpfise of many _ Further appeals by Papich to
Hoover to reinstate programs were of no avail From that the
relationship between Papich and Hoover chilled and any idea that Papich
brought to Hoover from the CIA conce Ining joint counterintelligence efforts
was generally rejected and accompanied by a critical remark _
While Papich's 1968 letter had brought no change in Hoover 4 S attitude,
Hoover did keep Papich on as liaison. In the Fall of 19 69 Papich con-
fided to his wife that he was seriously considering retiring in the Spring
of 19 70 _ By the first of the year he realized that his career was effec-
tively at an end and that he could no longer effectively accomplish his
responsibilities as liaison between FBI and CIA He decided to submit his
lctter of resignation, to be effective in early April of 1970
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SECRET 10
EFFORTS TO INPROVE RELATIOVSHIP BETWEEN CIA AND FBI
Efferts by Papich
Under Hoover there #es little exchange of ideas at the highest levels
of the CIA and FBI . This Ivas nerely Hoover' s style _ Papich Kas able
to get people exchenging ideas at the working level and this #as done
Ivith floover S approval_
Papich supported CIA innovative approaches to targets of mutual interest
to both agencies 2nd frequently became involved in conflicts with Hoover
for such interest action When any CIA promoted projects were ap-
proved , the responsibility was placed on Papich to assure that there
iould not be 2nv invasion of FBI jurisdiction or violation of agreenents _
For instance, tne CIA through the Donestic Operations Division (now the
Foreign Resources Division) was always logking for foreigners in the
United States to_recruit 23 agents_abroad Tke FBI a180 hali e1 intezest
Ixubesa forerg @fEicels LE E€ Ias dScovered @ag the @fEciel Wasi
~borking for & @pposiciom Serviees Jin the 1960 S the CIA cane to Papich
Co see how the 5est Operations Division could recruit Without con-
flicting Wvith the Bureau _ Papich set up a Program and sent it to Hoover
recommending approval_
0
but Hoover indicated that_he Was concerned with
possible CIA invasion of_ the FBL's jurisdiction It was Werafore @graed1
(B
beueem tke CIA &d tle FBI that_ CIA" could Go@tihe @0 recrutt Horeigners
iw tha Uieed State3 iF they would imediately cuatacc the FBT @o %e=
Crui @@ individual &d funish Papich With a11 infomatiom @btained
from thaz jldividul uieh pertadned t0 intenial @ffalrso| Purtero Cbe
individual was %o be made evailable 0@ the FBI 1€ he possessed Substams
tial information Within the PBL "8 jurisdiciioz This program culnnated
in @ Meoraudmm @8 Underatanding belween rckeCIA Leehe #Bff dated Eebz
Tuary 11986.1 The program apparently Worked we]1 and much valuable in-
formation was given to the FBI which satisfied Hoover_ Perhaps more
importantly , new CIA/FBI relations at the field level were developed.
However, Papich was Iell aware at the time the progran Ias set up that
if it flapped, Hoover could immediately kill the project.
Papich also advocated the exchange of lecturers betieen CIA and FBI to
give the two agencies sone understanding of what the other agency was
Such an exchange of lecturers and training facilities did not
come about until about the time that Papich retired_
Papich also suggested an actual trade of personnel for short periods of
tine So that personnel from one agency could become faiiliar %ith the
various problems that faced personnel from the other agency on the working
level This suggestion Was never approved Ihile Papich worked for the FBI
3
Pepich reiterated the fact that he had 2 veiy
working relationship
with Jim Angleton _ He fecls that this relationship Ias probably respon-
sible for the F3I ' s arrest of the Russian spY Rudo lph Abl _ Apparently & Soviet
agent came to the CIA with information on Able_ The FBI Bas contacted
concerning the debrie of this agent _ but Hoover wanted nothing to do
With it Papich cooperated with Angleton, and the information obtained
led to Able' s 2rest and conviction_
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The following grey
areas were delineated by Papich :
1 The question of whether the FBI should recruit
States for use by the CIA
agents in the United
overseas or whether this should be left to the CIA
Activities With zespect 1o defeciors @d tbe debri R
10 te Wniced Stetes_ (ac pzesent] Zhe' FBI
@f defocdors
dlebriefing
@S1 28 te FBI is
gewerally Iets GCA d tho
(ceasonable tineo @0w}
given access to ce mem WLthin
8 @ccasiod_the boae Gi @f d@feCCors heve beew diSpuwed by CIA and the FBIg)0
questo @f Who 181 reSpousible for Cotinued Super dsion
defeccors @Ce e been resettled in_Uhe Unired Scatesa| @1er|
I8
des 8@ Zeally heve the mEpOBCE [o monitor the
ently in wbe Ualted States
PPep_eonfeolsthenamedorondovidu8s =
eold €o Sol? md should bc [eselindividualsi
Wazched by Some @@ex
4 The question of Who should provide cover in the United
CIA operations overseas
States for
5 _ The handling of
agents suspected by CIA to be Coimunist
seas Iho travel to the United States _ agents over-
6 _ Inadequate communication between
the tko agencies in resolving
bona fides of defectors of interest to both agencies _
7 . See the subheadings below
Papich believes that in fairess to the Ren in the field a more clear-- delineation of jurisdiction is needed . He did state that from time
cut
time documents were put forth by Hoover concerning
thenFBI 'sOjurisdiccion
particular areas Generally such 3 deline would be issued fol
in
a particular in an operation involving both the FBI
snadtholZowing
Papich could not point to any specific docunent but suggested that
ask Kelley for this type of information. we
Papich did feel that there Ivere some areas of jurisdiction that
cut For instance, CIA is not to investigate violations of
were clear-
United States the laly in the However, it is not Papich 's opinion that the determining
factor of jurisdiction is 3 strictly geographic
'one. (At least it shouldn 1 be.) t
Espionage_Matters
Papich felt strongly that the FBI had the responsibility to investigate
any possible violations of the espionage laws He could point to no case where the FBI refused to undertake this responsibility where reasonable
evidence of espionage existed, even if the suspect was an employee of the CIA_ In some instances _ the CIA might cone to the FR I wvith information
3l
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Ober S Operation: (continued)
had the personnel
9
and the FBI would have become
on 3 massi1 e scale_
aware of such acti-
However_
9
Papich did receive a continuing supply of infornation from Obei.
Most of this information
to the relationship betiveen domestic 2nd forei
related
infornezion pertinent
to
gn groups Inciden-
picked and
intcrnal security may have been
of
up p2ssed' on to the CIA_ Papich is also aware that Obei S recruits were gathering inforation in
the
some
a5 #ell as crerseas on occasions when
United States
and he or she
the student S travels ended
returned to the States_ This information
passed on to Pepich- Papich acknolvledged that
was also
would provide CIA with
on occasion the FBI
a
an introduction to 3 sympathetic student in dissident group _
2_ Project [IERRHMG; lOffice of_Security)
Papich knows almost
no of efforts to penetrate
() (&)
by the Office of Security_ He feels that if
dissident groups
extensive, the FBI would have becone
such a project had been
Washington Field Offi
aware of as FBI had a large
ce and was very interested in the dissident
groups and constantly moni then_ Papich could not incident where
a CIA asset working for recall an
turned
Wonen 5 Strike for Peace was over to the FBI _ He did recall occasions Ihen
turned over assets to the FBI Ivhen the
Ober' s group
and no longer wished to work
asset returned from overseas
abroad_ Papich believes that
a small amount of.information on dissidents was ever from the Office of Security . sent to the FBI
Papich states that this entire period of.the dissidents_
phere was such that something had
to be done
the atmos _
more militant of these dissident
someone to learn what the
and destruction of
groups Were Planning_ Riots, bombings,
property were rampant = Citizens and newspapers were screaming for
action to this unrest to an ed = It was 2 difficult time for a]l Federal agencies_
Criminal_Cases
Papich is not aware of any instances Ivhen thc CIA has forcement tasks in the United States This
undertaken law en -
not sone
does not mean that there wvas cooperation betiveen the FBI and CIA in criminal cases_ For instance=
9
Angleton S overseas agents would frequently obtain information connecting Americans with
criminal activities in the U.S_
contact the FBI and together Papich and
Angleton would
source of information to assist the
FBd , Anglecoa eould develop the CIA' s
6
the
A good example of this led to arrest and conviction of a New York official
Adinistration _
during the Lindsay
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SECRET 17
Penetration 02 Exoessies in the United States
Papich has no knoledge of any CIA efforts to obtain positive_intelli-
6
gence_bY[ penetraziag goreig cubassies 1n the Unted Seares , @wbough
chey did @" occe3io. 2etent 10 recauit Eubassy personel for activities
@1ers?25 ) pursuzn€ {0 tbe PBIICIA Ilemorandun o€ Undesstanding_of Pebe 7
1966 apicn 0eTieres tnat 1 Ethhe CLA @ttempted to positive in-
telligence inforzation througklchese arbassios? this was an
action which shouli nave been pefforned by the?FBI
Infornation Obtained From Tax Returns
Papich is unaware of any instance where CIA has made use 0f tax returns
to obtain inforation on Americans
PAPICH 'S PHILOSOPHY AND MI SCELLANEOUS ITEMS
It is Papich' s belief that Ihile the intelligence services of the United
States presently obtain great amounts of information through new techno-
logical developuents are still unable to read the minds of the
leaders of foreign countries Consequently , they must attempt to pene-
trate through clandestine efforts The way to successfully penetrate
is to permit those conducting the operation to go about their business
unburdened by nuerous reporting requirements _ Papich's philosophy is
"If You Ivant the job done right give me X number of men and leave me
alone M He questions whether this philosophy can be adopted in the United
States in 1975 , as faith in the leadership is an essential factor. He be-
lieves that such operations can be controlled and overseen by the Director
of the CIA, the Director of the FBI and the President_
Papich indicated that the differences betleen Hoover and Sullivan have
nothing to do with CIA. Hoover Ivas convinced that 2l1 dissident groups
were directed by the Commuist Party , Ihereas Sullivan disagreed. These
differences affected the Hoover-Sullivan relationship only after Papich
retired_
Papich believes that the FBI lost stability when As H. Belmont (the No . 3
man at the tine) retired in 1967 , He presently resides in Palo Alto,
California_ Belnont was loyal to Hoovet, but he had excellent rapport
Iith the agents and could put things in their proper perspective_ In
fact Belmont Bas most useful in resolving differences_betiveen CIA and Hoover =
Bclnont '$ successors (DeLoach and Sullivan) could not measure uP .
JNR/ vr
CC: D.Belin SECRET
Senior Counsels
[38332
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