Transcript of 157-10011-10024.pdf
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157-10011-10024 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F_ KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
JFK Assassination Syster Date: 7130/20 1
Identification Form
Agency Information
AGENCY : SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER 157-10011-10024
RECORD SERIES TRANSCRIPT
AGENCY FILE NUMBER
Document Information
ORIGINA TOR SSCIA
FROM: COLBY WILLIAM E.
TO
TITLE : SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY
DATE : 05/21/1975
PAGES : 113
SUBJECTS
CASTRO
SSCI TRANSCRIPT , TESTIMONY OF DCL WILLIAM COLBY
OPERATION MONGOOSE
CUBA
DOCUMENT TYPE PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICA TION Unclassified
RESTRICTIONS Consulted; IB; Donor Restricted
CURRENT STATUS Redact
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 05/04/1994
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS SSCI Box 239, Folder 14
v9.1
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Unauthorized Disclosure Subjec-
TOP SECRET
Vol. to Criminal Serctions
Iuitcd Statrg Seuate
R I9
Col 6Y_
4 of' 5 1
CIA HAS No OBJECTION To ON
DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR
'BY RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT
AS SANITIZED
'Report of Proceedings
~:tcf FC
4
44 2ld27_
"
Bc
Hearing held before
Eelecr Cammittee to Study Governmenta 1 Operations
with Respec? t0
Intelligence Activities
Record Number 157-10011-10024
COMMITTEE EBARING
SSCI Box 239 , Folder 14
Wednesday 21, 1975
Washington, D.C
(Stenotype and Waste turned over
co the Comittee for destruction)
WARD & PAUL
410 FIRST STREET, S. ES
WASHINGTON, D: C. 20003
(202) 544-6000
TOP SEBHET
@lpr
INVENTORIEC:
Slr)
9k
Ii4/ -
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May
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102 D2721
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the first Man contacted Mr Maheu, worked through a L
2 Cuban exile leader. Ana he offered I # and he said that he
8
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3 coula do some thing of this nature provided he got some funds
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and the assistance And he was supported in this regard _
5
And I think again we have some doubts as to the accuracy of
6 his reporting
Mr Schwarz . In November 1961 did Mr Bissell indstruct
8 a William Harvey to take charge of the ling syndicate
operation designed to kill Fidel Castro? Page 3 of Mr Greer S
9
report , which is at the beginning of your report .
10
Mr Colby . I believe SO , yes
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Yes That is what our evidence says , the summary
12
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sais , "of the evidence available" " And this is the evidence
4
13
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available in 1963 And there have been some minor changes in
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some of the details of this summary very minor changes _
15
But the essence of this report. is still roughly accurate, I
16
believe
17
Mr Schwarz Mr Harvey
# was Mr Harvey the mer that
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had hired an agent in order to kill Lmumba?
19
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Mr Colby _ Mr Harvey was the head of Staff D, Staff D
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of the Operations irectorate Ias iesrbns iblerne@r TComiunica
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8iong neelligente-"woizk
@n ebe seeset level
0
4 SubBiameial
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4 Po5gi@n @6 tebrs Be28E2 Ioxk
@ovolves aetem21s €o peneitzarel
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@mbass es n3 Apasgrcularly_abnoad -or e@tagly abzeaid
0
I aony
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NEbznk wleyy biaive eVej dene @i8 hege, Fozdjr tto g2E @E thei
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eodes @nrd @ipbess and in the process , you Obviously work up
2 some people who are able to do this kind of work , which is 8
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3 quite different from the nornal life style of most of us
L
4 Mr Harvey had been a very venturesome officer in the
5 past He was responsible for the Berlin tunnel And he was
6 sent down to take this job _ And he assumed as part of it the
7 capability of t4 # he was given Mr Bissel this chore of
8 carrying on this particular operation as well
9 Mr Schwarz Had he been the person who had , in
10
connection with the abortive effort to kill Mr . Lmumba ,
11 hired an agent for that purpose?
12 Mr _ Colby . I have forgotten whether he hired him_ He
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13 hired a foreigner And this foreigner S job @ul1)gegoigas'
0
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Engi2aee _ebaj enIs Recergnezg jeb Weg _gied tap Wih Zne p2ne
Lragiont @Ez cedet reems ananthe Zae _cradkingeand eehang3_@ez thf
15
Qai0g8 20g @haz J111208 And there are some very obscure
16
references that an additional assignment was to look into the
17
possible assassination of Mr Lmumba - The evidence is
18
that he went down to what is now Kinshasa, Elizabethville in 19
1
1960 stayed there a few weeks , and left in October, I
20
8
believe And then Mr Lmumba was killed thereafter in a totally
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separate set of circustances in which we
had nothing tc do .
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There is some indication that a CIA officer who was asked
23
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to have some thing to do with this particular job saic he did
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8 not want to do it.
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1 was not advised of the 2ssassination activities Quite likely
2 I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation
8
1
3 system was such .
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4
Chairman Church What Ias the name of the CIA agent Who
5 was given the responsibility for liaison betieen the CIA and
6 the Warren Commission?
7 Mr Colby To my knowledge it is Mr Raymond Rocca
8 Chairman Church Where is it now?
9 Mr Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year-
He remained working for uS for a few months I think he is
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retired. I think he is retired_ I believe he is still in
11
the Washington area. 12
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Mr Knoche . Yes
0
he is still working with uS
6 13
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Mr Colby. Still working with uS to help on the transi_
14
tion of the whole counter intelligence program
15
Chairman Church _ did he retire?
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Mr . Colby. That was the Angleton case Mr Chairman , and
17
the facts of that case were that I had had some professional
18
differences in_the organization with Mr Angleton as to the
19
2
way the counterintelligence business was run @andthe Wal Ebe }
kl)
20
i
(Zezaelz aagounz wag bandled: I believed that it required a
21 L
higher degree of coordination of the other elements of the
22
4 Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various
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occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 and
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8 took a number of functions away from it. The liaison witin kha
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FBi for instance, and a couple of other thirgs _ gzad@atly
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endbavoredto @p2m [ @be [8z2e11 aecoue @@ 2 188t2r %2lar1e3
8 2
Lship [ii8h omr 08322 Yeas Begger E22g1vdate De Rebazadath?
1
3
over Qany norens_<d Cn eweral @@casionsa e@omjal nexer 1
4
Teally agsee j@ Tz beczgzemke~rszsreed @1azeke] imperear
Secajlingtie wese 1e mas
10)
Mr; Atigteton had done
@fresicablisaing €ai
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12igounyeasszaige and kneWe a8l@s @El@ke 3ejzor IsialiliZwbgr
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Lwene
Invvolved Tzuje _
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DT Jezjevad Zheze was Esardeguart _@@rdinatieniq Ehe:Buala
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@areas
10*)
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Also , I believed that there was a undue degree of compart
12
{ mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with
6 13
our other divisions We debated this and discussed it and I
1
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set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December
15
because there were some very substantial retirement benefits
16
that people would loose if they stayed after that point. Ther
17
unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd came
18
to our attention before it was
actually published
0
and So I
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brought Mr Angleton up and said that I was going to Fake two
i
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basic decisions_ I @a3 g0jne E6
movve €bz Izzae11 aacouag Ezom
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[bis 88vi51oli ad I was going to put some sucessor leadership
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into the Head of
the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I would
4
23 1 offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence
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doctrir?, he could stay working with uS , He did not heve to
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1
Chinese Communists subsequently blared the Chinesz Vatioralisks
1
2 and tke US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft erployez 3
1
3 had fled to Taiwan _ 'We had nothing to do with that incident
4 and Erankly heara about it 2fter it occurred_
5 In the fall of 1956 , 2 senior Chinese Nationalist official
6 informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National plannea tc
7
assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in
8 November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest cf
9
the Chinese Nationalist cfficar sent to Fhnon Penh to supervis;
10
the attempt . We learned of this after it had happened and we
had nothing to do with it.
11
We @ad a 2212jon8hip W1Eb ekar Chinege Latienala8
12
1
Intelligence Servics-over the ye2es <nd #uhev_elearly ave leene
6 13
1
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@nungis wvi tbo@g [our_ikoaledge @1 iavolvananen awal j42 a @Qmbez
0f @zeasg @ug W have &ls@ WozkedatogBekez
@@ Sche_are38k 15
Lu
These are two that Were separate.
16
Alsc I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard Hun
17
and Sturgis that appeared in Newsweek sone years ago . We
13
obtained this photogreph from the FBI last night about 5 0 'clockl-
19
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We had not had it before . We had a copy of the Newsweek
20- 8
edition_
21
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These are photographs of Howard Hunt in 1949 , 1950 and
22
4 1961 . This is the only photograph We have of Mr . Sturgis
23
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It is taken out of the NewSweek _
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8 We nave had nc connaction Ivith Mr . sturgis and So Me have
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t UB E
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individuals in ic.
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Sanator Schweikar_ Did ycu get the other photograph , the 8 2
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supposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy?
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Mr Colby. I don t have that with me It is in the 4
Narren Commission published report. It is in thare 5
Senator Schweiker_ It is in there? 6
7 Mr Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to
8 conceal wrere it was taken but it was 4d
Senator Schweiker_ It is in the Warren Commission?
9
Nr Colby . Yes, it is in the Warren Commission
10
Just one additional matter
11
Chairman Church Just one thing I woulz like to say to
12
{
You , Mr Colby , before I forget it Jape made Safesence
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1 E@leke %ss2eli aecqung ad" Ehe Spedial wey Ighaz ti€ Ead bsen
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Ihandjed @der M3 Ang egen Befog@ [S" %32381 @10K geview 43
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Yem @T @OVEEE @paragions we Wou - ldEika Hornave; a,ore dez ilad
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3eameng @ Elzg "aiuerz
16)
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Mr Colby . Right _
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Chairman Church And I think You shoula prepare to
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3
discuss it with uS and W2 will have further questions to ask
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you in connection with it.
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I just wanted to give you notice.
22
wi Mr Colby . Right _ If our lexicon it doesn t count as a
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covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover
24 2
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it.
7
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G& 12 themn e
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Mr . Harvey was giver the resporsibilicy of tnis by Mr
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Bissel and originally it continued as a separate Zction from
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the Castro operztion, but Mr Harvey was also given that
5
resporsibility, ard for all interts and purposes they bacame
6
Wedded .
7
Mr . Helns was the person Who formally approvad 2R Rifle
as a projecta ZR Rifle had a aual purpose that has rot bear
clarified our inquiry It apparently was in fact usad for
10
tha stated purposes , as far as orgenizational activities Wert
11 along ,L whieb Gas 201 82821 G@das and Mr Felns Than he
12
approved the project, 2uthorized accountirg on certificaticn, 1
0 13
which meant that rather than the usual vouchars supportirg
8
; 14 expanditures, tnat the officer involved would sinply certify
15
Lhat the monay had been spent and this would be accepted
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It nad a project amount of soma dollars, 87503 I s10 ,00 ),
17
sonle of it to include the salary 0f ar 2gent, some to irclude
18 Qperzting expenses.
19 So Mr Felms Inain appeararce ir &he approval of ZR Rifla
3
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20 does rot zecesserily equate with tha date Ihen ha bacane
21 fzmiliar Fith tha Castro operation _
|
22
Mz Schvarz. Because of the dual purpose of Rifle, Rifle
ti
6 23
Means both , rifle fizes 2z7 us2d rifles?
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2 24 Mr Sreckicridge. It nay Mlair either or boxh
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7 25 Mr _ Colby . It is supposed to disassociat2 but soratimes
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Thomas
1 Mr Schwarz November 1961?
8 2 Mr = Breckinridge_ I think that is probably correct_ It
1
was in the fall of 1961 that Mr Harvey was given this assignmen-
1
4 by Mr. Eiosel. I think Mr . Bisse_ left in 1962 . I am I:)t sure
5 of the dates , So Mr . Bissel would have known at that tine
But I am not sure after that.
7 Chairman Church _ Helns succeeded Mr_ Bissel as chief
8 of operations?
9 Mr Colby. Deputy Director of Plans
10 Chairman Church Deputy Director for Plans
11 Your record shows that Helns had knowledge of the ZR Rifle
12 operation ,. which , among other thirgs , w2s to develop ar executive
1
13 capability
#d Inp
whatever that means . Presuably that mears 3
0
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capability to conduct an assassination 1f and when authorizea
15 by proper authority?
16 Mr _ Breckinridge That is ny understanding
17 Chairman Church . Is that your understanding?
18 Mr . Breckinridge- Yes , sir_
Chairman Church _ Do your records show that, or 15 that
19
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20 based upon what has been revealed throwgh your interrogation?:
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Mr . Breckinridge. First, let me go back and clarify, then
21 L
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I will answer this guestion , 1f I may.
Lj
6 Mr. Helms approved ZR Rifle, ieh @beZece1d 8b217362z EEhe
23
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Fe8pensr iity @r"Ste3landuqo2e3 2232287213}
24 1
8
25 My understardirg from MY interviews , is that ZR Rifle hzd
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To? SECRET 90
Thomas t, 7
Chairman Church Senator Hart- 1
2
Senator Hart of Colorado Mr Colby , in connection with
0
3
3 ZR Rifle , I think You testified or your associate said this was
1()
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4 a multi-purpose operation ineiuaing gtealing codeS_ Zand the
5 development of the capability of what euphemistically is called
executive action
7 In your professional judgment , and with your history 0 €
your background in the Agency , does it make any sense to you that
a major operation , a major intelligence gathering operation
10 the Sost @2 8iealing @odes, whieb I assuma means €3@ @ekeg
govermmengs woula be Gounted under the direction of a man
11
about whom all I know is that Mr _ Harvey has a backeround of
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some thing like a soldier of fortune
1
and fundec at the level ,
0 13
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I should say, of $7500 to s10,000?
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Does it not suggest to you thathete2l ng @odesi was in
4u
15
fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination
16
operation with unlimited non ~voucher financial capability?
17
Mr . Colby. No , not that it is purely a cover.
18
In the first place_
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Mr Harvey had a very successful tour
19
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in Berlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel operation
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which was
20
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one of our major successful intelligence operations
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Mr . Harvey was a very
colorful figure who had his lifestyle
22
4 which is different than some others , but he had been very
23
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effective 2: that &3 33323 egvertuscsengi thaz @@tegory @E}
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siga1s intellicende and 2 Very lenturesome iCea 0f that natlre
8
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1 He was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division staff
3 2 uhai 8e2gz"8 m2josz Euncezed 182+07@onaes Eh2 Eignals Eintelligerd
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5 lawerzkmazcb d81 18"rloperzih Jele_elandeszine 3ex iee
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4 3g E,ddles @0I @sr@xes {odav
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5 @32ai gooms areadn &d Elige 105 Ebae nazrie) and leliavolves)
ktne_bieakjng 3inzo "3aies_ane Ebines aLEEehat eomgjicazed
mategiale
L(B)
Now the thing that puts it together with this 0 capability"
executive action
8
is the high degree of compartmentation of
10 this material, that kind of a project = %a @@ehez wosds, a
11 e@de-breakingg
@ Btealing @2212i1ong @bvioug lyrenat jalE@
12 ~kerr [er; Very Begiet 35 Yeu_get @anlghz 35 4+ 1g @as&11
0
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13 80223 @I Yesy %2d dielonagie _Juplieag1on3g Zaz 69 Bexth
46 )
1
14 Therefore there is a system of very sharp compartnenttion of
15 the work of that particular sroup_
16 You also are dealing With sOme very venturesome peopie
17 Wibo ase Wiglng €@ @gawl inz0 Somebody elsal 8 @ede isom ad
18 Ireaze Ee (@lawce @E gezejg gapghg
19
given you have 2 nan who had some good techzical
1
20 experience _ who is a venturesone type himself and is rurnijg a
3
21 program which is not too far off the requirements of higr |
22 compartnentation , and a very high risk kind cf operztion ; and
4
23 therefore , for Lir Biesel to have selected Harvey to carry out
1
24
this project seems: Eo me that it is compatible Q222712Z9C24z
7
:
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62 gunning_@oelEbreaking _es@jece3n 2Z @nae s2@20ng 22034 785
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as well as this other activity.
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Now , in the lifestyle at the time not mentioning the second
8 2
1
5 one this gets back into the recordkeeping that we have been
L discussing. It was not to be put on the record although to be
done . That is a perfectly proper hypothesis , it seens to me ,
5
but to say that @2be ode_s2e2ling
was only a cover I think is
6
probably an unwarranted conclusion
7
Senator Hart of Colorado . What about the level of furding
of $7,500 to $10 ,000?
Mr Colby . That is not very mucn noney for that kind of
10
an operation
11
Senator Hart of Colorado. Precisely. I think it is too
12
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little
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Mr Colby. No . For a capability of that nature, it is
14
largely a staff operation_ In other words You use your Own
15
staff officers You may hire an agert Or sonething, but I don ' t
16
think You can draw much conclusion from the actual number on
17
the figure one way or the other .
18
This might not have been the only such Project_ You knctv
19
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an assassination' projeck would cost You more money than that,
20 8
too
21 L
Senator Hart of Colorado _ Absolutely.
22
W Mr . Colby . I find it hard to say that that is the only
23
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amount of money invclved . I tilink you g2t into a situaticn
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where additional money woula be put into either of those kinds
8
25
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Chairnan Church Before You do , would Iou just explain
8 2
exactly wnat the' relatiorship betweer CIA 2nd Giancana ard
1
3
Maheu was because that is not clear in my mind.
4
Would you develop for tha Committae that whole relationship]
5
Mr Breckinridge. Robert Maheu used t0 work for tbe
F3I ani he resigned from the FBI ard openad 3 privata investigar
tiva firm here in [ashington end CIA used him from time to
8
tine for Certai: kinds of support aciivities
9
Chairman Church. shat ki-d of support ectivities?
10
Mr Br eckinridge. On 0.2 occasion he obtained a fenale
11 companion Bor 21
1n20rt2r3 [o3jelg@ Ieader
12
Chairnan Church. wnat other kira of support? 1
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Mr Breckinridge. In the early dzys
La au and this bacomes
8
{ 14
22 anbarrasement: As rezrly as I cz? reconstruct, ths People
15
Who knew him decided to put him Or 2 retairer i-7 the Office
16 of Security, which thsy did for 2while, uniil ha as So
17 successful ha said h= ro longar re=ded tha ratairer, which ha
18 didn + do ruch to earz? He later gct invclved rsprasartizg
19
0je 0f ehe Greek shipping inierests 2cd Re Were giver the 1
i
20 results of some of the information Lhat he obtained fron Ehat
21 where tnera was a fight bettwe= Niarchos 2sa Onassis We
|
22 think he nay navs had son2 involvament it erother (Eoraraa
4
23 Jeeder"3 companionship Wher ha was in this country. I dor't 1
1 24 nave tha detaiis. I #hink Me czr prcbzbly recojstruce it for
8
25 You.
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Thomas t, 9
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Mr. Schwarz . I would like to up on the discussion
2 we had 8
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3 Chairman Church Mr Schwarz has five minutes more and
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4 we will &nclude and I would likc to ask the Comittee t0 stay
5 on for ten more minutes for an executive session
6 Mr Schwarz In the discussion we had on the use of
criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation _
In the middle of the book spplied to uS by Mr Breckinridge
earlier this week , there is 2 discussion about the Lumumba
10 operation
0
and the Agent Q J. Min _
11 Now is it a fact that Q. J . Win was the agent , Or asset,
12 however you would refer to him, who apparertly was considered
1
13 for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never tock place ;
0
8
< 14 is that right?
15 Mr _ Colby Yes , sir.
16 Mr Schwarz Now is it accurate that Q . J . Win operated
17
@ Europe {371ng e@ Sp@€ ana as8888 Indzviduez Wbom ahe Agengy}
18
ould_use 12823222221103 0p2iaz10ns? L( 4
19 Mr Colby This is what is reported , and it is quite
1
possible
20
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Mr Breckinridge_ The record indicates that"
21 L
22 Mr . Schwarz And is it further So that one of the CIA
Wi
6 23
officers who first met Q . J. Win[3 suxenbousgo @23 @@a
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24 @8Czs888 20 3in3 gazeeraekers_end document{Suppujlzs?
1b
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8
25 Mr Colby . Yes , that is what it says
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