Transcript of 157-10011-10018.pdf
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157-10011-10018] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F_ KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date:08/15/92
Page:1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMAT ION
AGENCY SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER 157-10011-10018
RECORDS SERIES
AGEnCY FILE NUMBER
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR SSCIA
FROM
To
TITLE
SSCI TRANSCRIPT DATED JUNE 11
1
1975 TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. BISSELL
DATE 06/11/75
PAGES 135
SUBJECTS
TTRANSCRIPT TESTIMONY' OF RICHARD M BISSELL
DOCUMENT TYPE PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION T
RESTRICTIONS REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 09/29/93
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS
SSCI Box 231 Folder 5,: Testimony of Richard Bissel]
[R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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1 to reactivate the operation_
0 to renew the attempt , until
8 2 after I had left the Agency , which was in February 1962 _
3
3 Senator Mondale . Now you say you discusged probably
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4 with Bundy and Rostow the capability in developing more
5 capability of asses8inations_ And you may have discussed
6 it in the context ~of various potential targetsi without
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deciding
on then _ Once you decided on a target or you were
going to recommend a target, what was the process of getting
9 clearance?
10 Mr Bissell I can't answer you that, simply because
11 no specific target was ever recommended . And lto the best
12 of my knowledge and belief
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other than the case we have discussked
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at length of Castro, which in time preceded thel SRRIFLE pro-
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ject. The isgue of obtaining clearance never larose. I
15 can speculate on how that woula have workea if You wish.
16
Senator Mondale . No .
The Chairman _ Let'9 go ahead then with the questions
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Mr _ Schwarz . Senator Baker asked , did Helms succeed you?
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Mr Bissell_ That is correct.
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Mr Schwarz . Did you turn over SRRIFLE to him and 20 9
did tell him about it?
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Mr Bisgell_ I believe I did. And I also believe
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4 that Mr Harvey told him about it promptly after the turnover
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Mr _ Schwarz . Do you know a man called Jusein 0 Donnel1?
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Jh 2
8 Mr . Bissell. Yes , I do.
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7
Mr Schwarz Did you ask him in words or substance to
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kill Mr Lumumba ?
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3 Mr _ Bissell_ I asked him to investigate the possibility
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4 and to make explanation for So doing_
5 Mr Schwarz . When did you do that?
6 Mr _ Bissell. I don t remember the date of that. I may
have it on a chronology here , but I imagine that is a matter
8 of record , or that he has testified to that date. I don 't
9 remember the date.
10 Mr. Schwarz . Dia you tell hin this connection with
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making plans to go see the passer of the poisor MMr Gottlieb?
12 Mr . Bissell. I think I probably did _
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13 Mr _ Schwarz . Did he tell you he wouldn do it?
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14 Mr - Bissell. Later he tola me that he didn t want to
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do it. But he also said that he thought it was an inappro-
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priate action , and that the desired object coula be accon -
plished better in other ways . 17
Mr _ Schwarz . Who authorized You to tell Mr _ 0_Donnell
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to take stepe: to move toward assassinating Mr Lumumba ?
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2
Mc Bisgell Nobody _
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Mr Schwarz . Did you inform the White House Of that?
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Mr Bissell_ No .
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Mr _ Schwarz . To the best of your knowledge , dia anybody
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inform the white House of that?
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8 Mr . Bissell To the best of my knowledge
no , 25
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Mr _ Schwarz did you seek to asgassinate Mr
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2 Lumumba ? 8
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3 Mr Bissell_ I didn t seek to assassinate hin . I
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told a menber of the clandestine service to make plans and
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develop the capability S0 to do if it were approved and
6 ordered _
7 Senator Goldwater Approved by who?
8 Mr _ Bissell_ It would have then had to have approval
9 at the highest level of government
10 The Chairman Where did the idea cone from?
11 Mr Bissell_ I don t remember Mr Chairman. It coula
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possibly have been mine .
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13 The Chairman It could possibly have been] yours?
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Mr Schwarz _ Did you tell Rostow that was your initiative?
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Mr . Bissell_ I told him that the instruction 88 to 15
{0 [Donetw wa8 my initiative.
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Senator Baker How many others did you plan on , just
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29 3 contingency?
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Bow many other people did you instruct to draw up plans
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to asgassinate?
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Mr : Bigsell. I don t believe there were any others which
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went to the point of instructing that a man be prepared_
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Wj
6 Senator Baker . How many were there that didn t go that
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far? How many murders did you contemplate?
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8 Mr . Biseell. Well, Senator
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7
1 quoting a cable concerning the asget WIROGUE who wa3 sent
8 2 to the Congo in the fall of 1960 .
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3 The Chairman Mr Bissell, the memorandum to which
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4 counsel has referred reads as follows :
5 "In recommending the agent or asset ROGUEF the Chief
6 Sofl Station , Leopoldville, the Chief of the Agency S African
Division , probably Bronson Tweedy _
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wrote in late 1960 :
8 He is indeed aware of the precepts of right and wrong _
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but if he is given an assignment_
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which may be morally wrong
10 in the eyes of the worla but necessary because his case offi-
11 cer ordered him to carry it out, then it i8 right, and he
12 will dutifully undertake appropriate action fori its execution 1
0 13 without pangs of conscience _ In a word , he can rationalize
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14 all actions M
15 Is that fairly representative of the philosophy that
16 applied to such matters at the time?
17 Mr Bissell. Well, it certainly applied within the
18 range of matters that woula have cone under SRRIFLE
19 Coula I say, Mr Chairman , that I know of no way in
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20 which it i8 possible to operate a secret intellligence
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21 or a gecret service unless it has at least a nuber of 7
22 employees who are willing to and can be depended upon to
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6j 23 carry out orders involving acts of this sort.
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24 The Chairman That assumes , of course , that the
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25 United States ought to assagsinate foreign leaders .
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1 meant to suggest that that was entirely comparable? 7
2 Mr Bissell It was not meant to suggest that it was 8
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entirely comparable, but the individual whom I have mentioned
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4 were all perceived in their time and place as menaces to
5 their own countries and the U.S . interests ,
6 Senator Goldwater Might I ask a question based on his
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experience?
8 From my readings in trying to learn more about intellis
9 gence 0
I gathered the impression that the actions such a3
10 you have been describing
up to ana including assassination,
11 are practiced bY every intelligence organization that I have
been studying , is that correct?
12
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Mr.Bissell That is my impression likewilse, Senator
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Senator Goldwater . Including( Bbgqand?
Mr . Bissell I believe S0 , In fact, I Ithink definitely
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it has bbeen used T6} I couldn t give you Ispecific
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cases ,
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Senator Goldwater . Certainly RGB .
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Mr Bissell_ Certainly the KGB 0 0 although a3, the Chair-
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2
Jan
pointed out the other I at least canndt point to
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any case where the RGB has carried out the asgassination of
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a chied of state.
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y Senator Goldwater Would You assue that in the cases
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of thoge other countries that this ruler woula have knowledge
24 2
8 of this in every case?
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1 Mr Bissell. In the case specifically of the USK
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8 2 I woula answer in the affirmative. I also believe , however _
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3 that the Chief of the Intelligence Service of one Of those
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4 countries would flatly deny that the chief of Sjate had
5 knowledge of such action.
6 Senator Goldwater Thank you
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Senator Baker . Would you it?
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Mr Bissell_ In our case here?:
9 Senator Baker . Yes , sir.
10 Mr _ Bissell_ Yes , it woula be appropriate to do 80
11l Senator Baker _ Have you done 90?
12 Mr . Bisselle I have not had occasion to, because I am 1
0 13 unaware of any high level assassination that occurred by
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14 the U.S .
15 Senator Baker Doesn t that amount to a denial?
16 Mr Bissell. It i8 a denial that any has occurred ,
17 at least in the period that I am aware of=
18 Mr Schwarz . Nag your answer to Senator Baker meant to
19
indicate that- you woula perjure yourself on this matter?
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20 Mr_ Bissell. It depends a little bit on the context .
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21 There are occasions when I would go a long way Ito protect the L
22 President of the United States from certain kinds of embarrass _
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ment . 23
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24 Senator Baker . The question was , very simply , would
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25 you try to protect the President in such a cage a8 you des -
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7
1 cribed MI6 or otherwse?
8 2 Mr Bissell_ I can conceive of S0
doing, Senator
1 3 Senator Tower May I pursue that just a Imonent further?
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4 You might say one
thing in sworn testimony before a
5 committee like this
0
but say another thing publicly, is that
6 what you mean?
7 Mr . Bissell. That is exactly what I mean
8 The Chairman . Have you lied to this committee?
9 Mr _ Bissell_ No , sir
10 The Chairman. Would you lie to this committee?
11
Mr . Bissell_ No , sir.
12 Senator Tower I think that distinction has tocbe made -
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I think I woula have lied about the U-2 myself
0 13
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The Chairman . Shall we proceed with the questions?
Mr . Schwarz . The remaining topic I haye i8 Trujillo.
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It is respectfully indicated
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and involves a lot of documents .
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And we have some procedural matters that We need to take up 17
I know we can 1 t finish Trujillo before 12:30 , and I would
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suggest that: we ask the witness ana whatever Senators that
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can return to: come back: this afternoon on Trujillo.
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The Chairman Ne have a Senate order that there will
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be no further comnittee meetings this afternoon_
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4
I doubt that we can obtain unanimous consent .
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ls
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7
1 almost any kind of paramilitary operation, such a8 the
2 Guatanalan operation, the Bay of Pigs itself 'is, the earlier 8
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3 operation that has been discussed in the press Min Iz2n and-
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[bjeh teeueed uniithet @usitte= @E Megsedegbana be geturn 0f Ele
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Shahl there is an expectation that such operations will involve
6 military or semimilitary action, and that some Ipeople will lose
7 their lives in the process .
8 Senator Baker Yes, but I am speaking rather Dore
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precisely of a single person or a group of people #bo_uere
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targeted, or discussions were held about: targeting them, for
what would be an assassination were it not for the legal;
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significance of the term_ 12
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Mr . Bissell I don' t think I remenber any cabes in
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which that sort of matter was discussed or wa? the subject
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of planning , other than the ones which have already been
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mentioned in testimony
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Senator Mathias Coula I interject a question at this
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point-
But Of' course that contemplates what we have Seen in
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the earlier testimony , that when you begin an Operation
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and I think this was the history of the Castro operation
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to in sOme way incompacitate him politically, that it often
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6; moveg to the extrene of incapacitating him physically , isn't
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that true?
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8 Mr_ Bisgell That i9 correct , sir.
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7
1 AFTERNOON SESSION
8 2 2 :17
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3 TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M BISSELL (CON D)
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4 The Chairman The hearing will come to order_
5 Mr Schwarz will comence the questioning
6 It will be understood that the oath still continues to
7 apply .
8 Mr Schwarz Before we turn to Trujillo, two ck
9 questions 03 the Subjece Gf Suzasuog weia Yt invojyad 5@
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Eka ualziug @E ehe mOV-eTut whieb anl a220r Wag qade @2 h@ 1022
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Jika Suka and he-engaged 40 eeszual a3uiVE70 (ieb e2z.
12 pr3o223310 Jhe plan;zbeing ehag _ thag movie touid Jbe_rejeeged
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40)Endkne3.ar2]
0 13
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Mr Bissell I have no recollection of that
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Mr Schwarz _ And if I took out any of the details and
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broke it apart you would have no recollection?
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Mr . Bisgell I am afraid not .
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M Schwarz And the second thing _ to pin down on Mr
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Helng
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did yon: brief: hin about the Mafia matter?
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Mr Bissell_ I am reagonably clear that I did not brief
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him-in the_early stages , that is to say , in 1960 And my
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impression 18 that he may very well not have been briefed on it
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4 until I was about to leave the Agency in early 1962 _
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Mr Schwarz . But at that point You did brlef.hinz_:?
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8 Mr Bissell I don t remember whether I personally
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1 they might eventually be 30 used .
6 1
8 2 Mr Schwarz Is that a supposition, or is it based upon
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3 any recollection?
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4 Mr Bissell I would say it is a faint recollection .
5 But I find it very difficult in this case to distinguish
6 between an element of supposition and a dim recollection _
Let Me cole to what I seem to remenber about this matter
8 There was, as you have already indicated, several discussions
9 in the Special Group, and one or more at least iin other very
10 small groups with representation from State , the White House
11 and the Agency And I am clear # 48 I do recollect that the
12 plans at that time contemplated the arming of obviously
a
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relatively small group inside the Dominican Republic, that is
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the provision of arms perhaps for a dozen Or sol people , but
15 not for something like a of invasion or a major
16
geurilla activity.
Now in discussing that kind of an operation, I am 17
18
perfectly certain that everyone that participated in the
discusbion was clear that weapons S0 gupplied might very well
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be uged: against Trujillo or other benior supporters Of his
6
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6
Mr Schwarz For how many countries in your experience
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at the CIA has the US Government supplied arms to dissident
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Wj
vi groups within the country?
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Mr _ Bissell_ Well we have talked about two cases ;
24 2
8 Indonesia 13; another case
during the time I was in the Agency ,
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8
Or before I wa8 DDP off hand I can t remenber other cases ,
0h
8 2 but there may have been SOme Well , earlier before I was ever
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5 in the Agency , there was Ehef cas @2 Zrar And there was the
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4 reasonably well publicized case (@Erguawama1a
5 Mr Schwarz And the Iron Curtain countries?
6
Mr Bissell. I think we have
7
Mr Schwarz But what I am driving at,_ it i9 fairly
8 common to supply arms to dissident:;elements in countries all
9 over the worIa?
10 Mr Bissell Yes , that is correct
11 Mr Schwarz Does taht also imply that there is an
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assasgination contemplated or not?
5
< Mr Bissell I would say definitely not, in most cases
0 13
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not In a large scale operation like Guatzialal there was 14
no intention of any assassination I think you/woula include
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it under that ter 16
The Sae i9 true 3@ Iseqof course thelpossibility
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that a chief of gtate woula be killed
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The Chairman But you woula distinguish this matter from
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just supplying of arms to dissidents? In other words , there
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was an elenent of knowledge here that the armg were
supplied
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for 8 purpose , and that that purpose might well be the assassi
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4 nation of Trujillo Or
other highly placed people in this
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8
Government, correct?
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8 Mr Bissell_ The way I would prefer to state it, Senator
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I think is basically consistent with what you Said I would
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8 2 say that in the planning of this operation , and in the approval
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3 process , those involved would probably have given a higher
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4 probability to such use being made of the weapons than they
5 would in some of the other operations that I have referred to
6 Mr Schwarz However just focusing on the Special
7 Group as of the 12th of January , you can t tell from the
8 minutes which state of mind existed , but you have a faint
recollection that the more targeted state of mind existed a8
10 the 12th of January?
11
Mr Bissell_ My impression is that a3 of that time
0 a3
12 I mentioned at the end of the testimony this morning, the
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reason that the State Department, and probably the Agency 8
0 13
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representatives in the Special Group, favored this group was
a pragmatic reason It was *0 maintain and strengthen politicd1
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ties with the dissidents:
16
Mr Schwarz . The next matter of record that we should
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focus on i8 a memorandum of January 25 , 1961, apparently
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reflecting
a discussion of @ojege_ EMDEEID Was E@EED the
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code for the overthrow of Trujillo?
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M Bissell I suspect it was the code nane for the
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project of support to the dissidents
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4
Mr Schwarz Do You remember the name EMSLEl?
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8
6 I show you the memorandun of January 24
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1961 headed
24 2
8 00 'Discussion of pproject EMDEEDJ M Does it appear to be a
25
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and this record , which is a record we have obtained from
8 2 the Agency _
0 may be unfair to You. But do you not agree
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3 that on this record it appears that on the item of the pass -
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4 ing of the weapons which were the weapons that were in fact
5 used , it appears that the AGency elected to keep the State
6 Department uninformed on that item?
7 Mr . Bissell sir, it does not quite appear that way .
8 It appears It #1
if I put these two together
9 Mr Schwarz . By these two you mean your: cable of March
10 24 and the cable of May 1 relating to certain matters is
11 not to be discussed with the State Department?
12 Mr . Bisgell Yes. The earlier cable of those refers to 1
0 13 machine guns _
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14 Mr. Schwarz . And to the pouching of revolvers?
15 Mr Bissell. And the pouching of revolvers _ And
16 I believe that what eventually passed to the dissidents
17 were three rifles, not the revolvers . And , therefore, neither
18 of these cables in fact refers to the pabsage to the dissi-
19 dents: l@uE.@EEUEKEVEEaonzroTE
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20 This cable states the conditional willingness at some i
21 time in the future to pags machine guns That permission L
22 was never granted and they were never passed _
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23 It refers to pouching revolvers = And I don 't
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24 know whether there was a recora that those were ever passed
2
8
25 or even intended to be passed ,
0 to the dissidents , And it would
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