Transcript of 157-10005-10228.pdf
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157-10005-10228] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F_ KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date:10/01/93
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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
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RECORD NUMBER 157-10005-10228
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ORIGINATOR SSCIA
FROM
To
TITLE
TRANSCRIPT/REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS_ AND EXHIBITS AS LISTED
DATE 01/10/76
PAGES 96
SUBJECTS
TESTIMONY OF E HOWARD Hunt
DOCUMENT TYPE PAPER = TEXTUAL : DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION T
RESTRICTIOnS REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 10/01/93
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS
BOX 248-10
[R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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SSCI EC;
2 4 8 - | 0
Scate
Florida
SS
County of Okaloosa )
AFFIDAVIT
E_ HOWARD HUNT JR_ being duly
sworn deposes and
says :
1 On January 10 , 1976 _ I was examined by Frederick D
Baron 3 counsel for the Senate Select Comittee to Study
Governmental Operations With Respect co Intelligence Activities
On January 11, 1976 _ I was exanined by boch Mr Baron and Howard
Liebengood _ another counsel for the Senate Select Comittee _ Ac
both of these exaninations I was accompanied by my counsel Randall C .
Coleman and advised of my Constitutional rights
2 . I have read the transcripts of both of the above-
mentioned examinations and I hereby affirm that my ces timony
therein is che cruth, the whole truch and nothing but the cruch
Z7/@ed
E Howard Hunt . Jr _
Sworn to before Me this sixth
of February , 1976 .
@ _ "derq
Notary Public
Ay Com - 'ian Exrires Jan. 4, 1977
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Ion SECURTT TTOrT4D4
ORIGINAL
Unauthorfzed Disclosure Subject
Vol 1 Op 3
to Crinlnal Sanctions
Ra/ya
@lr Iatited Statcg Sruate
5xzZhz
AM_
~j
Report of Proceedinga
EvlttQaiD
22
Hearing held before
Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities
CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO
DECLASSIFICATION ANdiOR
RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT
AS SANITIZED
Qez 14-4-99
Saturday , January 10 , 1976
eshinsua D.C
(Stenotype Tape a5 Heote turued Over
Eo tbe Coralttee for deetruction)
TD? SECE_[
WARD & PAUL
410 FIRST STbbbT, 0. B
WASHINGTON; D: C %018'
(83) Bed
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might have directed me to thi8: particular unlt_
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I was told that somewhere Within the overell political
2 1
and
psychological staff there was located a man with a 3m211 1
5
office This man 9 name was Pash , Colonel Boris Pash , and
4
my
understanding Was that Colonel Pash had been doing buginess ,
5
let us say , with the Agency in West Germany for quite a while
I sought out Colonel Pash I Wag directed to his office
and found sitting with him another Agency officer named Zirtie
Dazagwa I'm not sure whether Jt 18 d aehur 1az25u9
9
Mr Baron It'9 a Greek name "Etiaes L0 his correct 10
first name , but he goeg by 05240
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Mr . Hunt . Very good _ But In any cabe, he was known
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0
throughout my career a9413B10,1ez2n0 And I W2a at that 1
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point on , Zet'8 aay , 8 gearch @ls8ion to deterulne whether the
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alleged capability of Colonel Pagh In Net affairg , whlch 13
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how it Wa8 referred to, that 18 liguldations , would have any
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relevance to our particular prob len of the Albanlan dis -
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appolntments _
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1
Mr Baron _ By liquldation8 , You Rean asgassinatfons?
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i
Mr Hunt. Begagslnatlone Aggasginations , kideappinge ,
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|
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removals , let'8 gay .
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Thls had been alleged to de So I spoke Co Colonel Pash
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in Mr 22225430 presence . I explalned the problem to him,
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although at that Juncture I '0 qufte 8ure that we had not
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#
Identified the Albanlan 9uapect . So we were
talkfng hypotheticdlly
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earller , that when I first inquired around for the location of
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2 Colonel Pash and his assistant_
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the reaction I encountered 1
L was a rather jesting one and the impression I gained was
here were a couple of Men who were drawing salaries and doing
5 very little.
And So when Colonel Pash seemed reluctant to become
involved in responding affirmatively to my questions mY
inference was that Colonel Pash and @az353 could well not
have such a capability but for purposes of employent and
10 status , this Was the job they had But they didn 't want
anyone to call upon then to activate their particular
11
1
12
abilities_
0
Now that was my impression , and I Was a little disgusted 1
13
by it. I think I talked to the Chief of the PP staff later ,
14
who was of course well aware of the Albanian problem and I
15
said I didn t get any satisfaction Erom Pash , but it doesn '
16
really make any difference because We don € have the name
17
18
of the suspected individual
Mr_ Baron Just to stop here for a second and clear up
19
8
Soue of these details , Were You under the impression that what
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you called wet affairs, assassinations
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kidnappings , or other
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W removals from the scene of troublesome individuals was the
4j 22
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primary function of this unit that Pash and [azarug were
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running?
8 24
Mr . Hunt . Yes , In fact the only. Ag far a8 I knew , they
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had no other function If they had another function , I was
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3 2 never made aware of what it was
3
6
5 Do you know anything about Colonel Pash 3 background?
Mr Baron I know a bit, but if you think that there are
relevant details to put on the background
8 go ahead
Mr Hunt Well, I had not thought of Colonel Pash for
years until I began reading a book called "Lawrence and Oppen-
heimer and I saw quite a few references to Colonel Pash I
had known previously that he had been associated during the
16 war with the Manhattan Project and that he had a security
background _ And a3 I believe I touched on
briefly before , it
11
1
12 was my impression that Pash had been active 2 couple of years
0
at leagt before I knew hin in West Germany with the sort of 1
13
thing that we had been discussing S0 far today
14
Mr Baron What kinds of stories had you heard about
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Pash 8 previous activities?
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Mr Hunt Kidnappings mostly .
17
Mr Baron And where were those?
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1
Mr Bunt . West Germany and West Berlin
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5
Mr Baron _ Do you know the names of any Of the victimg
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of the kidnapping or any of the people involved other than
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Wi Pash and fLazagu9?
Yi 22
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Mr Hunt . I do not
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Mr Baron And are You aware from whatever source of
8 24
any asgag8ination planning or attempts that Pash was involved
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in?
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2 Mr _ Hunt . I an not 1
L 5 Mr _ Baron Does your angwer include not only the period
4
of time before you talked with Colonel Pash but after you
5
talked with Colonel Pash?
6 Mr _ Hunt Yes , sir
I might add that I was rather briefly
at CIA headquarters
at that time and within a very short period of time after I
had had my interview with Colonel Pash, I was transferred to the
Guatemala project, the overthrow of Guatemala
10
Mr _ Baron Is that the reason you did not follow up 11
;
12
on the problem with this particular suspected double agent
4
after not receiving satisfaction fron Colonel Pash? 1
13
Mr Hunt . That cercainly could have been one reason
14
On the other hand , I was chief of , I can see I really going
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to have to get into a lot more here This i8 going to be_
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and dull stuff for You_
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Tlo lugaing zog Wab @r@luent 15 mn22I @be-enge ehae
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I 18 ld bgougkz bim @ 2 8318 8r201o W 7E 11288p14g bim boused
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8 65 Bgp8 5 baa Made a
ezip @8
@n@ {j 6v705-% Eeyo6 {@
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7
@esr @ Jtizeeda (ndiegely wieh Colenel nagbez Eei King Zog
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W
who was very upset about the digappearance and loss of all
4)
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1 of his partisans in the operatione that the Agency was conducting
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1
Hadl bel WacWY cougezn lugh Lege 5 4 the the counter -
24 8
intelligence Or espionage aspect , which Is not my function, but
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l I Bad 8
@1iawe Rlg @D1ogt 7 Dbout
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And elao7 wG wese tsyig
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8 2 1g0) obi5zilag | dnt@ [l8 cov@e5y
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8o 1 became Lnrese8eea 8b
<
L maBecg @€ Ring %eg"& @aaEecelo@ 1n What Wab Ezppewng 1o
61e tatalngr Why were they being parachuted to their
deaths in Albania? And that was my introduction to the whole
scene in West Germany , where the balance of his retainers were
being held by the CIA Iell, not being held but where they
were being housed and trained for Albanian operations
1 9 Mr . Baron Can you explain the term retainer#?
Mr Hunt Well , I understood that when he finally got 10
out of Albania , that he brought with him what I can begt 11
1
describe as retainerg That ig bodyguards
0
menbers of his
12
0
8 personal staff, probably some relativeg I think he had
13
3
four or five sisters with him But the able-bodied portion
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of those loyalists who came out with him we had largely taken
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over paqla %1 Jn eega310 @2derad @bez %0 co@pegate
16
0i,eh 08
@
And then he never gaw them again _ He naturally
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becane apprehensive
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1
So that Nag my interest in what Was happening to the
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Albanians that We parachuted in Aarsoltrgh
0
I had no
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functional counter-espionage interest In the affair_ This
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uj
would have been handled and thlg was handled by the Chief
5
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of Counter-espionage for che Division
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1
Mr Baron Who would that have been at the time?
8 24
Mr Hunt . I can t remember a€ this point _
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Mr Baron But that would be the person primarily
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2
respongIble for taking care of this double agent problem?
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L 5 Mr _ Hunt _ That' s correct.
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Mr Baron Are you aware of what happened with that
suspected double agent?
6
Mr Hunt _ I have no idea because , as I may have indicated
previously off the record_ it became apparent gome years later
that the unfortunate fate of our Albanian agents was linked
far more closely to the revelatlong of Kim Philby , he
Soviet agent who was in direct llaison with 43 in Washington
10
and in Great Britain, rather than any penetration , although
11
1 the possibility of a penetration was of course
aiways
there
12
0
But I don t think that anybody was ever focused 1
13
Again , I left for Latln American affairs I left the
14
Division about that time and I really never heard about it
15
again _ @oug Blaugosbv the Albanian chief departed for
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Southeast Asia , and the whole sort of complex of know ledgeab le
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people was broken up through norma 1 transferg and specla]
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1 activities llke the Gua temala project .
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8
Mr Baron . Was Drand #lantarb knowledeable about your
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7
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approach to Colonel Pash?
Mr Hunt _ Very likely he was , Yes . I don t think I
4 22
1 woula have discussed anything with Colonel Pagh about the
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matter without talking tor Dxug about it.
8 24
Mr Baron Who else would have known that you approached
25
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Colonel Pash with the idea in mind of seeing if an assassinationi 8
1 2
Or a kidnapping couldn t be arranged?
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3 Mr Hunt The then Chief of Foreign Intelligence and
Counter ~Intelligence for the Division And I think now that that
was IChaw ley Eagllal; Carte@ Eagllew I think he wore both
hats He had both foreign intelligence responsibility and
the counter-intelligence responsibility _ And I might have told
the division chief about it, although it was not , it had not
'achieved such stature at that point that I would have
10 necesgarily talked to the Division Chief , who I believe at
11 that time was 'John Richardson of later Vietnam fame
;
12 It' 9 also possible that the Division Chief in that era
0
8
13 was John Baker now deceased , who left that division to
2
14 become Chief of the PP staff
8
and that would have been a
15 normal follow through for me 1f I had discussed it with John
16 Baker ; my direct Chief _ and then to have discussed it with
17 hin when he was my staff chief in the overall tical and
18 psychological staff
1
19 Mr Baron Anyone else who would have known about your
8
20 approach to Colonel Pash or about |
21 Mr _ Hunt Or his function
4 22 Mr Baron Yes , that Colonel Pash was considered to have
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23 assa8sinations 88 one of his functions
7
8 24 Mr Hunt _ We had a Colonel 'Buffington who at that tine
25 was a menber of the PP staf€ , the overall PP staff, and I think
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8 that he would hav e been knowledgeable about it.
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Mr . Baron _ Was that Milton Buffington?-
1 3
Hunt. Yes_ I think he later went on and had a career
4
in the Office of Security. Milton Buffington ves
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Baron Anyone else?
6
Mr _ Hunt - Yes I have the names of three men who unfor-
7
tunately are dead & I could give chose names , though Mr . C .
8
Tracy Barnes Mr John Baker , ] who I ve already mentioned and Mr
9
Iewwie W 4holpgaon These men were all at one time or another
10
chiefs of the Agency 5 PP staff.
11
Another man now living to the best of my knowledge who
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12
0
might well have had knowledce of Pash S function was the
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then-chief of the Economic Warfare staff of the PP staff and his
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name was Gates Lloyd He later became the Deputy Director for
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2
Support of the Agency
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3 There ' $ 8 man name Warole 8u5kieMeyer
5 who was in the
Psychological Warfare Branch of the PP staff I believe at
that time there was an International Organizations Branch
which later became the International Organizations Division ,
then headed by Cord Myer , Jr . , and his Deputy at that time was
Tom Braden , the now-colunnist whose wife has just ascended to
the Executive Office Building There Were members of the
Labor Branch and I'm trying to think of that branch of office
10
that was down the hall
11
1
There Wad a labor branch The people in there might know
12
&
There was a
lady lawyer naned Carol somebody who was very 1
13
knowledgeable about what Wa8 going on in that area
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Mr Baron Knowledeable about Pash '9 activities?
15
Mr Hunt _ Well, in the sense that when you have an
16
adjoining office, you ugually pretty much know what the ather
17
fellow 19 dolng . Just in that sense , because her function
18
1
in the labor branch had nothing to do with Pash , to my
19
8 knowledge
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What I'm trying to do here 1s to You gort of a
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congeries of people alfve and dead who would have had contact
4 22
1 knowledge , at the very least, of What Pash' 9 function was
23
1
Mr Baron Were each of these units referred to a9
8 24
PB with a
number following It?
25
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Operations and OPC , the staff structure emerged as follows :
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2
Reporting to the Deputy Director for Plans , 1.e Frank 1
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5 Wisner whose Chief of Operations then was Richard Helms , this
is the Clandestine Services Organization There was our
5 support staff
0
the PP staff, the Foreign Intelligence staff ,
the Coun ter-Intelligence
8
Counter-Espionage staff, and of
course the famous staff "D"
8 Also reporting to the Deputy Director for Plans were all
of the geographical divisions such as Western Europe Southeast
10
Europe , Asia, Near East, and 90 forth
11
Mr Baron Now at this point Frank Wisner was DDP
1
12
Richard Helns was his deputy.
0
9 Mr Hunt. Richard Helms was his Chief of Operations
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}
Mr Baron All right_ The Chief of the PP staff wag
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Mr Hunt . Either Tracy Barnes or John Baker or EouLo
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Thonpan
0 16
Mr Baron And you were located on the South European
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Mr Hunt Southern Europe Division
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1
Mr Baron , Who headed that division at that point?
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Mr Hunt . Either John Baker or John Richardson
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So as you see , I had a line responsibility to the Chief
21
of the Southeast Europe Division, as indicated in Exhibit J .
5 22
1
At the same time I had a functional responsibility to che
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Chief of the PP staff who Was Mr Barnes or Mr Baker or
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G
Vi;_
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Thongsorp just 88 the Chief of PI for the Southeast Europe
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Mr Hunt _ Does this satisfy
your request? 1
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2 Mr Baron It does , indeed
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5
Of all of the individuals that you have just mentioned _ L
which ones do you know to your own certainty
were clearly
knowledgeable of Boris Pash activities?
5
6
Mr Hunt - Arele Lazazugs would be the first one , and
after that I can speculate _ I would have to assue that
Doug Blaufawb cquired knowledge of it, but perhaps he acquired
knowledge through me I m not sure I have made a list of
other people whom I have not mentioned who conceivably , by 10
virtue of personal contact or functional responsibility , might
11
1 well have been aware of Pash' s true functional responsibility
12
0 within the Agency _ 1 13
Mr Baron Before I ask you to tick off that list, let' s
14
make it clear that all of the names , in addition to #zeiet
15
[lazerg are names that you have given 33 people who are 16
likely to have been knowledgeable of Pash 8 activities because
17
of their place In the organization structure at that time
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1 Mr Hunt . That' 9 correct, or a3 I have indicated in some 19
5 cages , 83 with the PP labor branch virtue of physical
20
1
proximity to that office .
21
Mr Baron don t you now just run very briefly
4 22
1 through the names of other people who yau thlnk could conceivably
23
1 hhave been knowledgeable of Pash function?
2 24
# Mr Hunt. In SOme cases I'm going to have to give
you their
25
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title designation rather than the name of the individual because;
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2 So much time has passed
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I have simply forgotten who it was 1
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5 in that particular era
Parer Sielel who at that time wa3 a member of the German
branch of the Western Europe Division , he has since retired
and is running his 'family wine @usiness in New York Certainly
the then Chief of Western Europe Division _
0
of which Germany
was 3 functional part and the Chief of Operations of Western
Europe should know
10 I would think that Jim Angleton_
8
who would have had
11
direct knowledge and always was the Chief of the CI/CE staff
1
12 The Chief of base in B3s] nz if in fact Pash conducted any
4
activities in that area certainly the Chief of base in 1
13
pez1dn would have been knowledgeable about it.
14
Also
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the Chief of base atrolleeko hich wag where we 15
had thef @eWlaa Gperation going on I don t know whether
16
Bi1l Harvy , tha is William Harvy; at that time was Chief of
17
Operations Ierz RorLl@ pr whether he was simply running the
18
1
tunnel , but Harvy might well have some
knowledge of Pash
19
8
I mould cer 'tainly agsue that when we re talking about
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liquidations and that sort of thing that the Agency 3 overall
21
Office of Security somewhere within it mugt have been involved 4 22
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guch German Division personnel a3 might be available today ,
23
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West German _
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and I would a1s0 suggest that General Cushman might
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#
be knowledgeable for this reason
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P-1 19 b_ 4B It was about that time that General Cushman was still
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2
assigned to the CIA I could be wrong about that but I seem 1
3 to have 3 memory of Cushman being around in those days He
was then a Colonel I had associated with hin In fact, we
had shared an office at one time , but that was several years
earlier _ I would place it about early 1949 But I 'm quite
sure that Cushman was around in that period of time and
involved with the PP staff , though what his function was I
don t know
Now there are alive cwo close friends of mine who were 10
then members of the PP staff Jogapl Esjn Tzand' Piala Parr
11
1
These are men who in effect established the PP staff for
12
0
Frank Wisner and then left to go on to other things _ 1
13
are both well known writere
14
Mr Baron Let Me just return to one nee that You
15
mentioned and that i8 Willlan Harvey .
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Dia you
# #n firgt, genera_ what wa9 the nature of your
17
operational relationshlps to William Harvey after this period?
18
1 Did you have any?
19
8
Mr Hunt . I never had any , no , In fact, I 've only seen
20
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hin once in my life, to the begt of my recollection
21
Mr Baron _ As you may know Willian Harvey wa8 tasked
4 22
1 in 1961 with setting
uP an executive action Gapability at
23
1
the CIA tasked originally by Richard Bisgell to carry out
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agsassinationg if required
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becaube we re going to slop over into this other matter that
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2 Mr Liebengood wants to talk about tomorrow _ 1
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5 Mr Baron Well _
8
don t we hold off then , except
that for this one question , which is are you aware of any
5 involvement that Dr _ Gunn had in assassination planning?
Mr Hunt No , I 'm not because I 'm just not familiar
with assassination planning And specifically , for that
reason , I'm not aware of any involvement that Dr Gunn might
have had
10
Mr _ Baron _ Let' s return now to the point of departure ,
11
which wa3 your conversation with Colonel Pash and the events
1
12
that led up to it.
d
1
13 Who were your supervisors that gave you the impression
14
that Colonel Pash was preparea to carry out assassinations?
Mr Hunt = I wish I could give You a distinct name I 15
16
think I covered that in an impressionistic way bY saying that
Tracy Barnes and John Baker , who were at different times 17
sequentially chlefs of the PP staff_ it seems to me that Barnes 18
1
was probably the one who indicated that Pash had such a 19
8
capability.
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|
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I know that I did not get it from laufesb and I M
quite sure that my information did not cone from within the 4 22
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Southeast Europe Division It must have come accordingly
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from the Political and Psychological staff, the contacts there
2 24
and I would have to say Tracy Barnes or John Baker are the 25
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1 most likely.
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L 2 Mr Baron _ And neither of those two men are alive today?
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5 Mr Hunt That S right _
4 Mr Baron Did whoever gave you the information about
5 Boris Pash indicate to you that there were any other units
in the CIA that could take care of such problems by means of
7 assassination?
8 Mr Hunt . No My distinct impression and recollection is
the function, if indeed it existed and I believed it then
10 to have existed as I do today . was centralized or focused in
11 Colonel Pash and @pue Lazama;
1
12 Mr Baron Now what would have been the forma l title
0
13 of the unit. that Colonel Pash and 8ae Lazajus Were running?
14 Mr Hunt. If it had one, I never knew it_
15 Mr Baron Can You add any other detail to the record
16 on your talk with Colonel Pash and his reaction to your
17 request that he consider on a general level the planning
18 an ag8asginatlon of a suspected double agent?
1
19 Mr Aunt . Well, as I recall it, my conversation with hin
i
20 wag a
relatively brief one I stepped in the door met him,
L
21 saw EzejlarZazar[g who I knew briefly, or at least knew him
4 22 by sight , and I sat down and I said we have this problem in
1
23 the Albanian branch We may need somebody liquidated in
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24 Western Germany = Can you handle it if that comes , or 1 f
8
25 it comes to that?
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1
And he geemed a little startled _ I have already indicated
8
1 2 that. What I'm trying to do now is to refine my thoughts more
L than I did previously when we were taking sort of a wide
at the canvas
Colonel Pash indicated or said to me that it was a matter
that would have to be approved higher authority and as
a relatively low ranking officer in those days = I thought he
was probably referring to Frank Wisner And indeed , he may
have It never got pushed up to Frank Wisner 5 level because
10 there no direct approach or a request for such approval
11 was ever made
1
12 I left with the impression that Colonel Pash was glad
6
11
13 that he wasn t going to have any businesg for me Or that he
14
had successfully deflected whatever approach I might be making
15 to him becauge it would give him and 4z80 Lazaru3 an
16 opportunity to drink more coffee and to draw their salaries
17 from the Agency while affecting to do a job that they were
18 perhaps not eguipped to do _
1
19 Now again, that impression I had when I left him was at
8
20 variance with what I had heard before I came in, where I heard
|
21 he and 07313 or he at least had been active in West Germany
4 22 in wet affairs, particularly kidnappings and that sort of
1
23
thing .
1
24 Mr Baron And you carried into his office the impression
8
25 that Colonel Pash Wa? a Man who could carry off an assassination
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1 Mr_ Hunt = No
8
2 Mr Baron . Did You ever discuss this matter with anyone 1
L
5 other than Colonel Pash?
4 Mr . Hunt In that context?
5 Mr . Baron In the context of assassinations or kidnapping _
6 Mr _ Hunt . Well , I wasn t involved in plotting or planning
any kldnappings Again , I would suggest that I might very
well have gone back to Blautazb who was the most interested
individual because he was responsible at the branch level
10 Zog gog js an operational tool whereas , I had an overall
11 political responsibility E@Lz Ring And I have described
1
12 the background of that, the rubric under which I becane
0
89
13 interested in the Albanian problem in the first place, and
3
14 then having talked to Pash it would have been only natura]
15 for Me to have said to @lanfarbo look, I talked With Pash
16
and he says it will have to be approved by higher authority
17 Now have You gotten , we don t have a
body yet, but when You
18 get a nane to put on the target , at that point You Wil] have to
1
19 carry the ball and take it on up the line
i
20 Mr Baron _ And you never heard anything further about it?
|
21 Mr Hunt . No , probably because I went within, I think
W 22 a comparatively few weeks off Eo the Guatemala operation_
6j
8
6 23 Mr Baron Did anyone ever mention it to You , say did
1
24
Iztla %aza70z ever mention it to you again?
2
7
25 Mr Hunt . No . I next saw @zzierlazarugs incrazpez in
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1 it woula be about 57 or and I had dinner in his home in 8
End 1 b_ 2 Taipei
9
and I'm quite sure I said at that time , whatever
1
5 happened to Boris Pash ,
or what do You hear from Boris?
Now he was a rather unusual individual to say the least,
and I don t think iriier told
me that he was dead I don t
know who told me that Boris, that Pash died , but whatever
he said . it was, well, he was okay the last time I saw him
and that was the last time we ever discussed it.
9 Mr Baron _ And you didn t discuss this request?
10 Mr Hunt _ No
11 Mr Baron Where did You receive the impression that
1
12 Colonel Pash wa3 dead?
0
1
13 Mr Hunt _ I gues3 when , either from reading the Lawrence
14 and Oppenheimer book or from the newspapers , from the Crewdson
15 story. I don 't think at the first level when I began recalling
16 the story, I don ' think I was aware that Boris Pash was
17 dead
18 Mr Baron In the Crewdson story there is an allusion
1
19 to the fact that Colonel Pash 1s probably dead
a
20 Are You saying that that cane from Crewdson '8 research
L
21 and not from yourself?
4 22 Mr . Hunt . Oh , yes, that came from Crewdson 9 research , not
1
23 Mr Baron This is more than a minor note on the
record,mite-
1
24 Colonel Bagh is not dead 8
25 Mr Hunt . Oh , good , I thought he was dead .
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7
1 my asswption at that time was that authorization by Frank
8
1 2 Wisner would have been all that would have been required to
5 proceed with the project had it ever materialized That is
the Chief of the Clandestine Services
Now whether Frank would have been required to go to
Allen Dulles , I rather doubt it. I think i is some thing that
he woula have been able to authorize himself
Mr Baron All right_ Let me ask you now before we get
into Colonel Pash S version of the story, which we will
8
10
whether it is possible that You are confusing the time periods
11 here?
1
12 So as not to hold anything back from You_ Colonel Pash
0
1
13
has said that the time perfod has to be off because he
14 retired from the Agency , or left the Agency in probably late
15
'51- It's possible that it went into 1952 But he wasn t
16
with the Agency in any capacity after '52 And in fact, his
17 status Was that of a military officer who had been detailed
18 to the Agency from approximately 1948 to '52
1
19
Now does that affect your recollection in any way of the
5
20
period '54 to '55 as the period when your conversation with
7
21
Boris Pash took place?
4i 22 Mr Hunt Well , from 1950 to 1953 , I was in Mexico 481
1
23
@Gbiei 61] tia ORc staelom
0
1
Mr Baron And where were you from the time that You
8 24
25
joined the Agency until You went to Mexico?
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7
1 Mr Hunt. I was a member of the PP staff_
8
2 Mr Baron Is it possible that your conversation with 1
5 Boris Pash about the assassination of a suspected double agent
4
took place in that time period?
5 Mr Hunt. I would have to say it's possible , yes
6 Mr Baron_ Woula You have been dealing with East
7 European problems or
8 Mr Hunt _ I was dealing with West European problems
9 Mr Baron I'm sorry . Would you have been dealing with
10 a problem like this one , a problem with a suspected Albanian
11
double agent in West Germany during that time period?
1
12 Mr Hunt I can t recall having done S0 _ The Nest
0
European Division had its own PP staff officer and he would 1
13
have been the one to take it uP , whereas my recollection i9
14
that this was generated at a later time when I was in the
15
Southeast European Division and had a direct reason to become
16
interested in the matter
17
I have to say that it is possible, but I would say maybe
18
3
5 percent possible _
19
i
Mr Baron _ And you accord So small a possibility co
20
L
the hypothesis that you actually talked to Pash about this
21
problem in '49 or 50 because You were not involved in
4 22
1 operations in West Germany at that point
23
1
Mr Hunt . No, I was not
2 24
#
Mr _ Baron And Elg Was DOg Yous dlledz at chat
25
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7
1 point?
8
Mr _ Hunt No , no He was not 1
1
'
Mr Baron _ Where were you in 1 49 and 50 physically?
4 Mr Hunt . Physically I was in the JRK building with the
5 PP staff and my direct supervisor at that time was Joe Bgol
who I have mentioned earlier
7 Mr Baron Did You travel to West Germany during that
period of time?
9 Mr Hunt . I did not
10 Mr Baron In the later period , 50 , and 55 , that
11 you were discussing, did you travel often to West Germany?
1
12 Mr Hunt . No _
0
1
13 Mr Baron_ You were stationed in Washington?
14 Mr Hunt . I was stationed in Washington and from the
15
period after I left Mexico, which was in, I think March of '54
16 for about the ensuing Year when I left for the Guatemala project
17 I was in Mashington Or the SE Europe Division So I had
18 that continuoub almost year there
1
19 Mr Baron Ig there anything else that adds to your
9
20 sense of the probabilities that this conversation took place
L
21
in '54 and 552
W 22 Mr Hunt . No . My restructuring is as I have given it
U
1
23 to you , my recollections
1
24 Mr Baron Let Me ask you the same question in
8
25
maybe a
straightforward
Manner
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political affairs, and his was the Jth, which had less well
8
1 2 defined functions And #seie Lazarug was
a menber of that unit_
1
5 Do you recall any dealings that you had in your earliest
4
period of service with the CIA with PB7 now that I 've refreshed
5 your recollection?
Mr Hunt . Not as such no Does Colonel Pash define
what his functions were in the PB7?
8 Mr Baron Before I answer that one let me ask you one
9 Mr Hunt . I've been trying to develop a helpful colloquy
10 here
11 Mr Baron This is very helpful _
1
12 Do You recall any charters that any of those planning
8
1
13 branches had?
14
Mr_ Hunt. At this juncture, no I was only aware that,
15 I think mine was PB2 _ This is when I first went in in 1949
16 or 1950 I think that was Jor } @lsyan"8 @utfit.
17 Mr Baron Colonel Pash described the charter of PB7
18 83 giving PB7 responsibility for such other functions a3 the
1
19 six other units didn t perform
i
20 Doeg that aquare with your recollection of what he was
|
21
doing In those early days?
4j 22 Mr Hunt = Well
8
you see , I don t associate Colonel Pash
4
1
23
with the very early days _ I asgociate him with a later period_
8
1
about three years Or five years later
8 24
25 Mr Baron Do you have any specific recollection of Colone
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Pash 9 activities in the Years 1949 to 1952?
8
2 Mr _ Hunt. Not at all, no My other collateral 1
1 recollection is that Colonel Pash was said to have come to us
He was recently assigned in Germany and he had come to us
5 from there That was all that I knew
6 Mr Baron Ztje Lazasus who has also testified this
past week on this subject, said that his recollection of the
charter of PB7 was that it gave PB7 responsibility for
assassinations
0
kidnappings and such other functions as higher
10 authority. may assign or as Were not being performed bY other
11 units
1
12 Does that square with the impression that you were given
0
11
13 by your superiors of the functions of Colonel Pash unit?
14 Mr Hunt . Yes I didn t even know that 0ie was
15
still alive So @gia then supports my functional recollection,
16 let's say .
17 Mr Baron Let' 9 introduce a9 Exhlbit 6 an article in
18 the New York Times dated January 8th , 1976 _ headed "Retired
0
01 8
19 Colonel Denies Heading CIA Unit for Assasginations
8
(The document referred to was 20
|
21
marked for identification as
4 22
Hunt Exhibit No . 6 )
1
23
1
8 24
25
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1
1 with reali certainty that no such conversation took place and
8
2 that even in terms of exploring the possibility Of assassination 1
5 planning or inquiring into the capability for assassination
planning , he maintains that assassinations were never raised
with him what do you then have to say about his
testimony?
Mr Hunt _ I would have to say that his perceptions and
mine were at variance and that we were engaged in some sort
of an Aesopian dialogue in which neither of uS understood
10 what the other wa? saying
11 I had no other reason to approach him I had never heard
1
12 of the Man except in that particular context .
0
11
13 Mr Baron . And there was no other reason for them
14
discussing capabilities for an assassination?
15 Mr Hunt - That ' s correct .
16 Mr Baron Were you aware of any specific function that
17 Colonel Pash performed with the CIA after the date of 1952?
18 Mr Hunt . Well, my recollection is that I saw him in
3
19 '54 and '55 and that' s the only specific function that I can
8
relate hin to 20 L
21 Mr Baron Now you have drawn a chart of the PP staff,
4 22
Exhibit 4 , that locates Colonel Pash and #reie Lazarus on the
1
23 PP staff_
1
Is it possible that they served on the PP staff before the
8 24
25 date the Colonel Pash gives a3 his retirement date from the
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CIA , which is sometime in '52?
8
2 Mr Hunt = Is it possible? Yes , I belleve it' s possible 1
L because Arele _Lazanwa was one of the original people in OPC _
Mr Baron At what point did OPC merge or was it
transformed?
Mr Hunt Well, it merged with OSO , I think in 1953
when I was ( aiet; @1e E56e OFC Blaeten 45 Iarldo and % becewa
Q@a Daelty Chel @2 @s merged Seaetom n Mexico in 53 and
9 I came out of there in, I think
8
March of I left Mexico
10 By that time the merger had taken place
11 Mr Baron So is it possible that this chart could have
1
12 been a chart of the PP staff a3 it operated under the OPC
0
1
13 structure, the 453?
14 Mr Hunt . Yes_ In fact, I don 't think that there was
15 any particular change from the PB to the PP era
16 Mr Baron . The reason for my Own confusion here is that
Colonel Pash and have both said that at the
17
18
point when OPC wa8 merged , or at some point shortly thereafter ,
1
19
PB7 Wa3 abollshed and they don t know what became of it.
8
gay the functions that thege Seven planning branches
20
L
21
performed were scrambled and reorganized and they were never
4 22 sure exactly who carried through the functions that had
1
23
previously been assigned to PB7
1
Mr Hunt' Well, I never heard any More about it
24 8
25 Just for perhaps a bit more clarification, the labor
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unit or branch ag it appeared in the PP staff following the
8
1 2 merger , that had the sae function and the sane personnel as
L
3 let' s say whatever PB enuerated or nuerical designations
So it's just a question of terminology I can see that for
5 chronological purposes you are interested in how I recall it,
whether I recall it by a PB nuercial designation or by
But since I never knew what the Pash-lazavaust unit was designated
whether it was designated by a word or by a number , it
doesn t help me at all And for that reason I can 't be
10 of more assistance to you
11 Just go see Colonel Pash He ' s in such and such an office
1
12 down there
6
1
13 Mr Baron off the record for a second
14 (Discussion off the record)
15 Mr Baron For the record now while we were off the
16 record we agreed to continue this session a while to get into
17 One or two other areas But I have a couple of questions to
18 tag on to the end of this one
3
19 Firgt of all
0
Ajalia Lapemue in hls testimony to the
i
20 Comittee , sald that he had no recollectlon of a conversation
L
21 with you where he was present , and you discussed assasgination
W 22 of a double agent , or the planning for such a mission with
v
1
23 Colonel Pash and himself
1
24 Do you, even
having heard his testimony , still have a
8
25 clear recollection that tztle 17ar was present when You
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1
L had this conversation?
8
2 Mr Hunt . I do , because to the best of my knowledge and 1
1
3 belief it was the first time that I had met Anejle_4L2z2mu8
That is, I had seen him in the corridors , but it was the
5 first time that I was able to append a name to the particular
individual who I had come to recognize Visually .
memory is further Jogged in this respect, that 52z2ru0
having identified me as a member of the SE division of the
staff, at a later time but not much later, talked to me about
10 the possibility of his being aa8lgned to the SE division
11 And my recollection of the conversation is that Wea told
1
12 me that he was a great friend of pha meeroppozztan @ delens
#
0
8
13 and that this friendship should be put to use for the Agency 5
14 benefit, and it could be best done by his being transferred
15 to SE division for ultimate a88ignment to Athens
16 Mr Baron Do you have from anything in your experience
17 in the CIA any personal animosity toward Colonel Pash or
18
0512.Lazevzusz
1
19 Mr Hunt - On the contrary . I've always regarded myself
i
20 29 a frlend of #3e12-1azarua"9 and I only had one contact
L
21
with Boris Pash And I have no
feeling about hln one way
Wj 22 or the other except that in his recent book I read about his
v
1
23 involvement in the Manhattan Project and I certainly admired
1
his contributlon to nationa ) security in that era
2 24
0
End b 28 Mr Baron . In A7to 2a2n5401@ testimony_ he gave us an
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account of an incident when he was stationed at Fazpez and he saic
8
that he
2 had written 2 cable to CIA headquarters outlining
a propaganda 1
L program because he was involved in propaganda operations at
that point An he said, unbeknownst to him, someone else
in his station with the approval of the Chief of Station
attached an extra paragraph to this cable which suggested the
assassination of Chou En Lai in preparation for the Bandoeng
Conference where Chou En Lai was supposed to be an important
spokesman on behalf of many Asian nations
10 And the way that Wnal2 Zazazugt recounted the incident ,
11 he knew nothing about the paragraph that had been attached to
1
12 his cable until the reply came back very strongly in the
0
1
13 negative and eventually , a high ranking CIA official came out
14 to Zalpel
0 reprimand everyone involved in the incident for
15
suggesting assassination
16 Do you have any recollection of that incident?
17 Mr Hunt I have no knowledge What year does
@Eria refer to because I was in [2ad2ua5ee58 @t @E Mezzelli
18
1
19
Doian gonend leadguan8ere in Tokyo from oh , about 55 co
a
56 or 57 And I would have geen most of the traffic chat
20 L
came out of Tolpoi in that period of time But I don t know
21
4 22
if
45 @d I know that Aauiea stayed on i Tazpel much after my
1
23 time in the Far East_
1
I don t know when the Bandoeng Conference took place [
8 24
remember it, of course, but I don € remember the year
25
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1
Mr Baron It appears to me that the Bandoeng Conference
8
2 took place, according to #eje Zazarng 8" testimony, in 1955 1
L and that the incident he was
describing was either in '55 or
late in '54
Mr Hunt I had no recollection of it whatever 4ntje
is not suggesting that is some basis for personal animosity _
I trust
Mr Baron No _ He did say , though , that you might have
had knowledge of that suggestion , although he wasn 't sure of
10 it. He said you were involved at that time in a place where
11
you might have geen cable traffic like that
1
12 Mr _ Hunt . That' s quite right, but I never saw that
0
1
13 traffic_
14 Mr Baron _ Let me pick up one last general question for
15 the monent at least on assassinations
16 Do you have any knowledge of even the consideration of
17 assassinations at high levels of the American governemnt?
18
In other words , we have been using the term higher
3
authority and I would like to use it for the moment now to
19
8
refer to the level of the DCI or the National Security Council,
20
|
21
the President , his close White House advisors , Cabinet
4 22
officials, and the DCI
1
23 Do' you have any knowledge of any people at that level
1
24
seriously considering assassination planning?
8
Mr Hunt . No , none I think you have to bear in mind
25
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1
1 to me and I was surprised when on invasion Castro was
3
2 alive I now realize from testimony that Harvey and others 1
1
5 have given that the matter had been discussed long before my
arrival on the scene and it was in hand one way or the other
5 Mr Baron When was your arrival on the scene?
6 Mr Hunt . Spring of 1960 I transferred up , I actually
made my trip to Havana the suer of 1960 and then we had
the of Pigs invasion the following April. of '61 .
Mr Baron Now it is my own recollection of our
10 assassination report that no action Was taken to carry out
11 an assassination plan against Castro as early as the spring
1
12 of 1960
0
1
13 Did some thing
14
Mr Hunt _ No . I 've giving you I guess a bureaucratic
15 answer I was officially transferred back to Washington in
the spring of 1960 and I took some leave 0n route in Spain
16
17
Eid 5 @1av@ d90r119@ a @@fectjo@ agcengr @2 Ene Gpkan Lj€aiy
aetache 1n Medssia
0 18
1
19
Eventually I made my way back to Washington in the spring
8
and early suder' and got on the scene within 8 few days of
20
|
21
my actually reporting into the " project: managers , i.e-, Bisgell
and Barnes , who decided I would go down to Havana for a period
4 22
1
of time , and I went down for about 8 week and cane back and
23
1
by that time we were ta lking maybe July or 30 ,
9 24
v
Mr Baron July of '60?
25
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1 Mr Hunt . That' s correct .
8
2 Mr Baron . Before we move away Erom Cuban operations 1
1
3 let me show you one cable that we have which is from Madria
and it appears to be to CIA headquarters because it is marked
IN 75100 and it is dated September 16 _ 1964 in handwriting
that was put on the copy that we have by the Agency
This is not the original copy of the cable but it appears
to be a copy that was deleted and paraphrased for the purposes
of providing it to the Committee in the early days of our
10 inquiry _
We will mark this as Exhibit 7
11
1
(The document referred to Was 12
0
narked for identification a$ 1
13
Hunt Exhibit No . 7 )
14
15
16
17.
18
1
19
i
20 L
21
4 22
1
23
7
8 24
25
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1
1 Mr Hunt . That can t conceivably have been a reference to
8
2 me 1
1
5 Mr Baron is that?
Mr _ Hunt _ Because I had not been involved in Cuban
5 activities for more than three years at that time I was
purposely isolated from all Cuban activities after the
of
Mr Baron You said you did operate out of Madrid for a
period of time but it was later than September of '64?
10 Mr Hunt . No . Let ne
clarify that .
11 I was sent to Madrid in either '64 or '65 I can't
1
12 recall which , and I stayed there less than a year I Was 0@
0
1
13
@ha @eaidal
D
pres0mc3 Tellere 129 H rex} 8 {hl btaeion
14 communications were handled independently between myself and
15 Ton Karranesgines , who was then Deputy Director for Plans
16 This was J project that had been laid on by Dick Helms
17
1 had n0 OeatJ0 conteee @€ 242 a1 1 naJ @o [0312003131112128
18 {o1 {10 8taziow and I had no Cuban activities of any kind
{
19 Mr Baron And did you have any knowledge of a relatiunship,
8
20 to 8 plan to aesassinate Castro, supposedly to take place
L
21
during a university ceremony?
W 22 Mr Hunt . No
M
1
23 Mr Baron Let' s move on now to an entirely different
1
24 area , and I Will ask you to begin by describing your general
2
7
25 role in the middle of the 19609 on the CA staff with regard to
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8
3 press publicationg
or press placements or any responsibilities
8
2 you may have had for media relations 1
5 Mr Hunt . After Allen Dulles ' 8 resignation and retirement_
I was assigned for about a period of a week to the CA staff
and I then transferred to the newly set up Domestic Operations
Division under Tracy Barnes , which was really the Commercial
Operations Division , although it was never so-called
I was the first Chief of Covert Action for the Domestic
Operations Division and we inherited as a new division a number
10
of projects that had been running for a period of time that
11 had been run by the commercial staff of the Agency and a
;
12 number of the geographic divisions
0
1
13
The purpose of turning these ongoing projects over to the
Domestic Operations Division was to centralize contacts with
14
15
publishers in the United States for the benefit of geographic
divisions such as the Asian or Far East Division which might
16
want a
book published on Endlonesza %or 8 particular purpose
17
18
They would cone to Tracy Barnes with a particular request _
1
And I should gay that the relationship with the; Erederick
19
8
Bo22agg2r Publishing Company had been in existence for quite
20
L
21 a period of time and I think they were managed Cord Myer
W
International Division , if I'm not mistaken or possibly the
Vi 22
1
CA staff But what we received Were ongoing operations We
23
1
were sent the case files for the Eredeziek d
0
Pzaerges project,
8 24
for the Pldr Gujdes project, for tha Goulinentol Peegs
25
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1
organization, which had been operating out of the Naleionav
8
2 [Bregs Building in Washington We had a project in Endta which 1
5 I visited on one occasion called Allied Paczzic #hich
we ran
4 out of a [esbusgocVirginia office
5 I had no personal media contacts with American magazines
6 or newspapers , if that is the thrust of your question .
7 Mr Baron _ Actually, I'M interested in this whole area ,
both contacts with specific reporters or media people done -
9
stically or contacts with lishing houses or contacts abroad
10 in the publishing field _
11 Mr Hunt . Well , I 've given you the nanes of the publishingj
12 houses that we had contact with I did on one occasion meet
6
13
and I can't recall the purpose of 1t, it was a very large 1
textbook publishing house and their main offices were in
14
New Jersey . If I had an annua ] for publishers , I could pull
15
it out. 16
But beside from that publishing house
8 we never did any 17
business with them I don t recall of any publishing houses
18
1 beyond_Euedertdk Bo pze@gero that is trade publishers , that
19
a
We dealt Kith
20
L
Fe had our Own press agency , @oneineneal Pregs which I
21
4 22
imagine you re quite famillar with
1
Mr Hunt . Can You describe the standard mode of
23
1
operating with these various publishing outlets?
9 24
In other words , how would you have supplied them with
25
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material? Would you urge then to publish a manugcript they
8
2
already had from another source? Would you give then a 1
1
3
manuscript that CIA personnel had written under a pseudonym?
Mr Hunt . I don 't think that ever took place , to my
5 know ledge _
6 What I recall is Pred @izaeger meeting with Tracy Barnes
and me Or
individually , either in Washington or New York during
this period and saying I have a great book I would love to
publish , but it's not economically feasible and I think it
10
would be good for you people abroad for the following
reasons
11 And we might cone up with the differential or we might not
1
12 I don ' t recall any Agency-created manuscripts that were
0
1
13 sent to Piaggeror for that matter, any other publisher
14 I recall we had a lot of accounting problems with Praenjez
15
and finally we got really almost bogged down in arguents
16 about back copies_ It Was a little on the nightmarish side
We did turn out sone good books , but I couldn t give. You a 17
title at this point . But I'n sure that they are a matter of
18
1
19
record within the Agency
i
Mr Baron _ What wa3 the nightmarish aspect of it?
20
1
21
Mr Hunt. Well _ apparently , before the project came under
4 DOD , it had been handled on a
very freewheeling basis by che
22
1
23
previous project managers _ Praggei everythlng he wanted
1
fron the Agency in terms of subsidy money and expense money
8 24
and licity money and that sort of thing and when We took
25
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8
3 it over it was brought under I hesitate to use the term
8
2
professional management , but I do So in 3 qualified sense in 1
L that I was the only one I guess , who knew anything about the
puhlishing industry, who had ever been connected with the
project . So I knew a little about it
6
And at that time with the help of our Own commercial
people within the Division, our accountants and auditors and
So forth determined that there were a number of aspects of
our fiduciary relationship with the @naegez ompany that would
10
bear greater investigation
So the relationship fron a freewheeling one prior to our
11
1 DOD managerial take-over it became from a
freewheeling thing ,
12
0
8 it became sort of an unpleasant continuous argument about
13
{
dollars and cents , rather than functional matters
14
Mr . Baron Out of what funds at the CIA did these monies
15
come from that we were giving to Puagger?
16
Mr _ Hunt I wouldn € have any idea , project money .
17
Mr Baron _ Who signed off on the project money?
18
3 Mr Hunt . Well = it would depend on how much it cost
19
8
I think that Karamessines could sign off up to 550 000 and
20
L
beyond that it had to be signed off on by Helns I think . That S
21
my best recollection And I don t know a3 annual review
v 22
1 was conducted , and of course the division chief had to approve
23
1
it.
2 24
0
Mr _ Baron Did the operation involve companies other than
25
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the ones you Ve mentioned? In other words supplying funds
8
2 to companies other than the ones you ve already mentioned? 1
L
3 Mr _ Hunt . I don t know of any . None that I knew of
I would be very surprised if a memorandum showed up saying
that we were dealing with Random House , for example _ I just
don ' t recall now
Mr Baron _ Was there any other aspect to your liaison
with these publishing houses other than their seeking funds
to publish books that you were interested in having published?
10 Mr Hunt Only this , that the USIA was , I think finally
11
brought into a
formal relationship with DOD , at least my
1
12 part of it, and the head of the book division at USIA and I
8
would meet from time to time and he would indicate that he had 1
13
14 a good one that we really ought to do rather than USIA and
vice Versa And he knew fully of the @zeeger relationship .
15
Mr Baron Can you describe the process that You would
16
go through to ensure the publication of a book that the CIA
17
was interested in having lished? An example that I was
18
1 given by gomebody
on our staff who has been looking into this
19
8
was books written by or ghosted for Chinese dofeciorg
@ 20 7
Mr Hunt . As I recall it, the Chinese branch sort of
21
4 ran a parallel operation I don t recaall thelr coming
22
1
through us I don t recall a 'dazegiog_book when I was in
23
1
that particular job What I do recall is, I remember the
8 24
Near East Branch brining to our attention a book that they
25
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1 would like to have [Praeger [publish and it had to do With the
8
2 Clipese-Pakisean bordem dispute , the name of which I can t 1
1
5 recall So the manuscript would have been read by @raager
or his principal assistant, and he would give an indication
5 of what he thought the marketability was And at that point
well, in this instance , we got the funds from the Near East
Division [hen it came down to that, should DOD who had
no interest in the Palkigtan boreler dispute, provide money for
that particular piece of propaganda So the money would be
10 transferred somehow from the Near East Division S allocation
11 It would be their project, but we would be the managers of it
1
12 when it got down to the point of dealing face to face with
0
1 13 Preeges @n the matter My office would keep the division
14
apprised of the project, when publication could be expected
15 and So forth
Mr Baron Were there any other CIA publishing proprietar_ es
16
than the two You have mentioned Ezzzea Paeieze and Coneineneal?
17
Mr Hunt . That I had personal know ledge of within the
18
1
19
Domestic Operations Division , no
8
Mr Baron You qualified that by saying within the
20
L
21
Domestic Operations Division Were there others?
W Mr Hunt. Because the international operations or Inter-
4) 22
1
national Organizatlonal Division under Cord Myer
0 ran quite a few
23
1
things in conjunction with the Congress for Cultural Freedom
8 24
for example . Radio Free Europe , those things that went on
25
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1
Mr Baron Did CIA do ghostwriting for non-CIA publi-
8
2 cations? 1
1
5 Mr Hunt . I ghosted a couple of
T & I'm very reluctant
to go into this, although I have discussed it with John
5 Crowdson But this is another one of those difficult areas
wbere it's very hard for Me to prove
There came a time in the spring of , I think it was the
spring of about 1969 _ when the Soviet Russia Division asked
me if I could cause to have published some thing on the
10 by this time I was no longer with the Domestic Operation
11 Division I was with Western Europe on the increasing use
1
12 by the RGB @Z Bucl C33is 28 I@ioglag &nd things like that ,
0
1
13 and Christ, I hope this doesn € get out.
14
Ana sO I went to Helms Howard Osborne was then Chief
15 of the Division , a9 I recall He was late Director of
16
Security, and this had been staffed out And I prepared the
17 article and It appearea in large portions unchanged under the
18
byline of Colo Eluledbussger5 And it was not a fabricated article
2
19 It Vas just information which was supplied which he wrote
8
20 somevhat In his Own style _
0
and there was a second article which
L
21
appeared a month or two months later , and this was done by
4 22
Dick Helns
1
23 Mr Baron Also under Sulezburg2m"8 byline?
1
Mr Hunt . Yes . You could understand the difficulties
8 24
25
involved here and I don t need any more enenies_ I have plenty
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8 Now that is my Own personal contribution to that sort of
2 1
thing . But I can 't think of anything else that was done .
L
3
Mr Baron By other people? Was it a general practice
4
to supply either prefabricated articles or the material for
5
articles to favorable press contacts in this country?
6
Mr Iunt . Well, we know about the Reaeles 8 Digebe book
7
@RGI" which was largely a cooperative venture with the Agency ,
and that wes done by the SR Division
9
You are aware of that, aren t you?
10
Now in that case, you see, the SR reached out on it8 own
11
Penkoski}papers was another example We had nothing to do
1
12
0 with that in DOD That was done again_
8
SR division And
1
13
I can understand
14
But bagically, in answer to your question , I have given
15
you everything that I have personal knowledge of _
16
Mr Baron When you made the arrangement with Coba
17
Sul(ziu5ges
18
Mr Hunt . I made no arrangement with hin
1
19
Mr Baron Who handled liaison with hin?
5
20
Mc Hunt . Dick Helng L
21
Mr Baron And was that a one-on-one arrangement Or
4 22
were there other people knowledgeable?
1
23
Mr Hunt . I believe it Was a One-on-one old school cie
1
8 24
arrangement_
25
Mr Baron Was there any list kept at the CIA of favorabl0
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EEzederdek Draegem rganization _ I felt that a strict
8
2 construction of the CIA charter made the project quite suspect 1
1
5 because if we were doing
a book , for example , on' Zndenegiami
Communism who was the target? It woula have been highly
inappropriate for United States citizens to be the target
of the particular book _ and we did a hell of a good book on
Indoneaian Comunism_ It becane about this thick I can 't
End Tape 2B 8 recall the title
9
10
11
1
12
0
1
13
14
15
16
17
18
~ 8
19
8
20
|
21
w 22
1
23
1
8 24
25
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Harrisgsmnl
1
If your targets are foreign , then where are they? They
8
1 2 don t all necessarily read English_
0
and we had a Jiletegar
1
3 fagreeneng Witb {a Bsiezah @ag ta wouldn" % piopagandize €15
ipe@plea So unless the book goes into a lot of languages or it is
5 published; in" India
0
for example r where English_ i9 a lingua franca
then you have some basic problems _ And I think the way this
was rationalized by the project review board that looked over
the Pssaeger operation , and the Flodlog thrng and @oneineneal
P5e8s} and things like that was that the ultimate target was
10 formed which was true, but how much of the Praegerzoutput
11 actually got abroad for any impact I think is highly arguable _
1
12 Now in che case of @oueneezl 1g8g80 the material was
0
0
13 physically mailed from Washington to foreign targets the
14 Gurkiah newspapers , I think particularly the Mideast BJewet
15 Agency was 3 client , The mere fact that the project was
16 rooted in the United States gave it sort of 3
credibility
17 lustre abroad in that particular era , If it came out of
18 Washington then it was probably okay.
1
19 But I @@oueiueazal prees had no domestic U.S _ papers
i
20 a3 clients . What I'm trying to get at i9 that DOD handled
L
21 operations which were
based domestically in the United States ,
4 22 the commercial operations_ and this includes proprietary
1
23 airlines and things like that , whose ultimate target was
1
24 abroad . The principal target or even a tangential target was
25 not the United States citizen.
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Mr Baron But , with anything that was published in
8
1 2 English, the United States citizenry would become a likely
1
3 audience for the publication?
4 Mr _ Hunt A likely audience , definitely-
5
Mr . Baron Did you take some sort of steps to make sure
that things that were published in English were kept out of
7 or away from the American reading public?
8 Mr . Hunt It was impossible because Przeges was a
commercial U.S _ publisher_ His books had to be seen had to
10 be reviewed , had to be bought here , had to be read _ Again: I
11 say it was a matter of great difficulty. Mr . Barnes resolved
1
12 all that philosophically, and I simply carried out the dicta
0
1
13 Mr . Baron . What Wa8
your philosophical opinion of the
14 danger of propagandizing Americans?
15 Mr Hunt . Well, I knew that it was not a part of the
16 Agency charter , and it Wa9 8 matter that the USIA looked at.
17 I talked about it occasionally. The USIA coincidentally had
18 cone under Sone criticism at that time for subsidizing certain
1
19 publishers in the United States . That became known; I don ' €
i
20 recall how I discussed with the USIA book man and with
|
21 Barnes the danger that We might be criticized for the same
5 22 reasons I was never enchanted With the Pzaeg@r operation _ I
1
23 thought it cost far too much money and had minimal benefits
1
24 abroad _
0
and further we had the liability, the vulnerability
8
25 to quite' reagonable critcism that we had U.S . citizens a3 a
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target, or an audience , I should say .
8
2 Mr Baron. Were there any precautions taken against 1
L
5 dissemination in America of publications by CIA proprietaries
in English?
5 Mr Hunt Proprietaries , well my only personal knowledge
is the Conezhenral Paa8s Operation which I say was simply mailed
out of Washington _ That was the only precaution, rather than
8 our people mailing then thenselves
9 Mr Baron Were any techniques used to prevent contamina-
10 tion of American intelligence by picking up on things that the
11 CIA was actually publishing or arranging to have published?
1
12 Mr Hunt I would assume S0 , and I would guess that that
0
1
13 would be done in the first instance by the knowledgeabi lity o€
14 the reports officers in the various geographic divisions at
15 headquarters who woula scan newspapers , for example , or they
16 would receive raw reports from Zndliag let' s say , and See that
17 there had been a big sale of a
particular book which we had
18 spongored , which they knew we had sponsored but nobody else
1
19 knew Of courge, lthe weaeien Jn New @elhi Mould have known about
i
20 it, too .
|
21 So I woula say that it was a
pretty good fail-safe. The
4 22 area of knowledgeability was high . For one thing , I craveled
1
23 some in thoge days . I traveled to Bombay . Ii talked to che
1
@Chief 05 Bage there I traveled to New Delhi and talked Lo
8 24
{6e Chief @2 }eezziod there
0
who wag My CA oppogite nuber and
25
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1 keep them up to date as to what we were planning . I would do
8
2 the same in France and So forth 1
1
3 Mr. Baron . Were there any specific instances that you know
4 of of an eventual placement in the U.S _ press of 3 story that
5 the CIA generated or fabricated abroad somewhere? For instance
6 a story could conceivably be picked up by the UPI or by Reuters
that the CIA had planted abroad
8 Mr _ Hunt . I can 't recall anything significant . I would
guess that during the Cuban
0
during the days of maximum
10 Cuban operation that sort of thing happened. I would think it
11 would be unavoidable
8
but I can t specify.
1
12 Mr Baron And are there any other instances than things
0
1
13 you have mentioned of direct placements of stories in the U.S_
14 press the CIA?
15 Mr Hunt . I have mentioned thesKicB @oelzewhich was a
16 cooperative venture with Readesg Digestr the two Sulizburge5
17 things No , I can t recall
18 Mr_ Baron , I touched earlier upon the possibility of
1
19
disseminating derogatory information about Agency targets These
i
20 were you aware of any general program of that nature to discredi
|
21 either 8
foreign political leader or a
foreign political fac-
Wj 22 tion , or domestic political groups Or leaders?
6i
1
23 Mr _ Hunt - T the latter question, no Domestic, I am
2
24 not aware of any . 8
25 I think the Soviet Russia division was quite active , and it
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1
kept a list, for example, and maintained a very good list of
8
2 RGB officers abroad .
8
and when one would show uP at Luanda for 1
1
3 example, they would make sure that the local press got the
4 man S dossier, or at least a blind handout so that they would
5 know who the fellow was , much as the Butz counterspy operation
6 is doing today against the CIA_
7 Mr Baron _ Did you make arrangements , or did you know
of arrangements being made for non-CIA authors to write pieces
9 that were favorable to the CIA?
10 Mr. Hunt. No
11 Mr . Baron _ There was no
funding of that kind of opera-
1
12 ton?
6
11
13 Mr Hunt . You mean sort of flackery, the favorable
14 publicity for the Agency is that what you imply?
15 Mr . Baron Right .
16 Mr . Hunt No
17 Mr . Baron . Nhat about subsidizing non-CIA authors to
18 write stories of any sort, or books of any sort that the CIA
3
19 wag interested in having published?
8
Mr 0
Kunt . I woula say this in a
qualified sense Where
20
L
21 in the past we
had given pragges a commitment to X copies
5 22 of his book on
the Einaleyag
0
Esnalayan problem_
0
obviously
1
23 we
were subsidizing the author of that book because it was
1
24 our money that 22e2ger was ultimately passing to the indi-
8
vidual but that wasePzaege5 doing it rather than u3 . In
25 0
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1
other words there was never any face to face contact _
8
1 2 Mr Baron Aside from dealing through publishing houses
L
3 that you had established contact with, did you deal individually
4 with authors who were non-CIA employees?
5 Mr . Hunt. I did not . I don 't think DOD did_ I think that
Far East Division did
7 Mr . Baron _ Do you know with whon?
8 Mr _ Hunt You mentioned (Chinese @afectonsn! for example _
9
Well, they dealt also , the Soviet Russia division dealt with
10 Erenk GiknezAn the Penkoski: case In fact, I had lunch with
11 Ezank while he was doing the Penkoski Papers So that was.
1
12 an example =
0
1
13 Mr Baron Did they have a regular program?
14 Mr Hunt Yes, I think So _
15 Mr . Baron Both of those two divisions?
16 Mr . Hunt. Yes
17 Mr Baron Is there anything else that You think we would
18 need in order to have a
fairly clear , complete picture of the
1
19 relations to the media Or the publishing industry?
8
20 Mr Hunt. Well , I think you could get probably a good
|
21 deal more information from Cord Myer who had a lot of that
4 22
directly under him when he was Chief of the International
1
23 Organizations Division and of course, he served as Deputy
1
Chief of Clandestine Services for quite a while He would
8 24
25 probably have as
panoramic knowledge a9 anybody . I guess he ' s
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Was that We had made the the President had given certain
8
1 2 undertakingg to Cuban leadership and to our own paramilitary
L
5 people, and had failed to carry then out.
4 However, this fact was successeully disguised for a number
5 of years_ but Dulles and Dick Bissell_paid the price
6 In any events , the of Pigs cost Dulles his leadership
of the Agency , and I had the utmost respect for hin_ I was
associated with hin a3 an assistant for the special Cuban
Bay of Pigs purposes , for a period of several months prior to ,
10, perhaps six months prior to his eventual retirement .
11 I had had occasional contacts with him a3 a
IChieg @
{
12 Sraejona and I had seen him in Japan when he cane over there
0
1
13 and we had sone discussions Mr Dulles brought into the
14 formal Central Intelligence Agency the Same
feeling of esprit
15 de corps that we had all enjoyed in the Office of strateglc
16 Services , and this was largely lost during the McCone director-
17 ship. Ana I think We had some admiral after that Admiral
18 Radford =
0
pogsibly. We got under a group of managers and che
1
19 human element that we had enjoyed in OSS as gone With che
5
20 passage of Allen Dulles until Dick Helns came back in. You
L
21 see, I'm an unrepentent admirer of Allen Dulles and the way we
4 22 used to d0 bubines8_ d I S0y that? Becaube the Vay we did
1
23 buginegs' during Mr . Dulleg' & directorate was precisely the Wav
1
24 We did it in 086 during General Donovan 8 creation and` directior
8
25 of that organization_ In OSS which was Allan Dulles ' 9 tralninah
ground, a3 much
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REF Madire 16 81 Ii 73706
1 CIA OFFICERS VET Kith SUEJ REF 15 . SEFT _ OfLY "IMPORTA.T"
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CASTRO ATTEMPT MOULD SUPPOSEDLY TAKE PLACE DURING UNIV'ERSITY
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ABOVE PLAV TOf" APPAREITLY ABANNDONED _
2
SAID AGENT-1 AXICUS LENTE CU BA On OFFICIAL Kisit QWDER
COTTACT CIA RE HIS FUTURE ROLE hITH CUBA _ SUBJ SUGGESTED RENOTE
POSSIBILITY ARRAWGE VISIT PRAGUE TFIRU AGENT - 1 FRIEND JOSE DELEG
To IUS OUR IMPRESSION IS AGENT- 1 RANTS COXE Out FOR GOOD AS
PROBA BLY FEELS PERSONAL SITUATIO TENUOUS
3 _ ACCORDING SUBJ , FOLL PERSONS OR INFLUENCE ON AGENT - 1 TEAM .
MAJOR MAJOR AID EX-MJOR (TYU )
SAID AGENT - 2 AS NUMEROUS CONTACTS CUBAN OFFICIAL CIRCLES
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Swatzon IAS STRONG RESERVATIONS AGAINST AGENT- 2 ON SECURITY GROUNDS
FROM
S E C R E T
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AND FACT HE OUT `FOR GOLD, FLUS LITTLE EVIDESCE CAPAbILITY
PRODUCE INFO OF ISTEREST
5 . os; #HO LEFT MECTING FIRST CLEARLY INFERRED To SUBJ It HAD
BEEN "GREAT KASTE OF TIXE. OTHER CIA OFFICER PROCEEDED POL ITELY
"CHEK OUT" SUBJ FOR GETTING US To ABOI'E MEET O1 FALSE PRETENSES .
FRA.LY ADMITTED MIS "RECRUITXEYT" BY CIS KAS HANDLiD I} SUCH
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SLOPPY MAANER AS BE CONSTRUED 4 FARCE . VIEr BAGUENSS HIs MISSIO}
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EXPECTING NUCH RESULTS FPoM OP kWICH PROBA BLY MADE O1 "HIT OR MISS"
BASIS. QUITE LIKELY EDUARDO" NILL VEFER APPEAR To COWTACT SUBJ _
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7 C/o SAID NOw' UP To SUBJ ShOK BONAFIDES SUGGESTIG HE KQULD
TAKE ADVANTAGE HIS "UNIQUE STATUS' AS CUBA,V AGENT GAIN ETRY
OFFICIAL CIRCLES . SUBJ FEARS # Y DENY VISA AVD DENOUNCE HIV To
SRAnISH PoLICE _ ALTHOUGH HE PROVISED ALATE EVERY EFFORT , IDICATIOSS
To DATE ARE HE WILL HAVE LITTLE_ IF AY , OPS UTILITY In AY FiEiT
WAS TOLD EXAMINE THOROUGHLY AY LEADS HE MiGhT HATE In NE.T EEi
DAYS IYE WILL DECIDE In NEIT MEETING OR Ti"o HETHER HE DOES APCEAR
To AVE ANY UTILITY , IF NOT IIE W[LL BE DROPPED,
S E C R E T
~iSEOMrrlicaBLE
To SENSITIE CABLES
7: ~J 1975
ca S % C R E T
page
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Page 54
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Y 'ew-dJojjg-JaAAII Ino 91..616 VV 0} 'Ji pQJ J1es UIP?p [euoseas
F0 Ilo3 98..341
3M1
THE_NEW_YORK TIMES,
Exh,a)
TIURSDAY_JANUARY
8 1916 [Retired Colonel Denies _
C.L.A. Unit for Assassinations}
S;einl r0 Th: Ner Yc"t WASHINGTON, Jan_ 7 retired A colonel denied 494o and 1931, the
period to Senate investigators which he was
i1
sertion by E
Howord a1} as signed to
temporarily
a5 -
Jr. tha the colonel
Hunt othcre the C.L.A. Or at &y
4 Central once headcd time in his career:
V
unit sct up
Inge arrance
Azency Mr. saic in a recent arrange for the interriew
assassinations of suspected vice his sera double-agents dwvsion
the C.I.A, S Balkans
The coloncl, Boris T. Pash, had
Mscusscd the mid-1950' $ he
Cal
told the Senate Sclect Conmt: Pash;
at his
with Colonel
tce on Intelligencc resterday thc prospcci/ 'periogs
that 1954 and 1955'the 0f an individual assassination
period in which Mr. Hunt, 3
liered to be
a
doublenogenas be
0f Sa
former CIA, officer, said he [ was told that we was told that Colonel Pash that capability;"
Mr.
had
ran such an.operation-`he had in the intcrview, and
iuhat Szhe
left the CLA. and returned guY to se? about this
the
to military service was Colcnel Pashsort of
In a statement made public Mr. said that he by the panel
caionef }ad understood that Colonei=
Pash termed Mr. Hunt'$
asgee/ Pash was deccased, added that
Ross "insidious ana complezery}he didcdiore5s the matted %iah
ffalse. the colonel, who seemed
He said he could not
recalli shockcd "that the subject has
ever having met or spoken with_ ever been brought up; and Me . Hunt, who is . serving
that the malter consequently
prison term tor 3 was left there_
his role in the Watergage case commisegaaoes for the SenateF
MISSES
the coloncl said, wasito interview
now altempting]
he ever " involved in
assas- : fhis
Mr. Hunt about
sination planning hetween
assertion, 1 committee
6 pokesman said
ISPANISH TROOPS RUN Khrouzh the center of the capital?
SEASC
SUBW AY IN MADRID booasen Posengecias; neighbor;,
hoods. Passengers were ad: mitted free. MADRID, Jan. 7 (AP)_The
STYLE
Spanish Ammy MADRID, Jan. 7 (Reuters) _ the Madrid
system to-
'Striking Madrid subway work:
45 the Goverment moved ers tomight voted to defy
[gingerly to break 4 three day/ernment pressure and- to wildcat strike that set off theltinue their walk-out con-
worst tratfic ' snarl in the city's{leaders said
Strike Find the Ia
lhistory:
out until their
would hold Single and double t
a possible labor back- were met_
wage demands
Dick lash the Government
refrained The strikers want: We even
plenty
for the moment; however, from voted not to have som:
Idrafting the rebellious accept an ofter from the ofti-
workers into service.
subwayicial Government-run
union to
About 3,000 electric hold talks if retumed t0
(tecrker
Garchelecric coe penv| work
HSSES' Ap
of Madrid in support 0r the BARCELONA, Isubway workers and the police Spain, Jan, 7 Iscdtear gas ? dispete perce/ achs -The Re;. Luis Mara Xiri;
Thc_police said broke nachs an outspoken Roman
sinilar demonstrations by faciCathoiic priest nominated Ior
workers On the
We Nobel Peace Prize lasc yeao;
loerskirts Ncrarrest? or injuries| was Urested while
were reported: ons near the Iocal prison kitroaa personnel trained J5
in support or amnesty for politi:
engineers reopened the cal prisoners police sources stid'
main line, which runs RLMIMBER THI mlldiesti
Discover dra;
single and double {
Jra
A printed #RSI? RRtKRg;Id: 32202418 Aaife 54 two-piece
L_
'uCLJaO
WoJ] WIW
Heading
ImW
rmy has
Hunt
that during
with
behest_
during who
Hunt
things
Hunt, who
today:
Nor.
any
began running'
subway
dey
Gov-
they
Fearing
{rom
they
they
tory city'$
today dem- tating
subway
{les,
slips
==================================================
Page 55
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€xkbit
STATELEENT BI B, HOWARD BGT
when Congre88 establighed the Church Comalttee, Senator
year ag0
that I vould be an early Nitnessa I wes then free
88 saylng Baker wes
available to testify concerning CIA involverent i
Appeal and reedily
activitiebe Koreover, I vioved testifying before t0
allegedly illegal
opportuity
further/to testify mder oth concerning w total non
Conattee a8 8
Ogwald, Bremer and Sirhan , persons with tbon
involvenent Hasgr8
l1belously Iinked in preaa and electronlc
Daje bas
been alanderously
intervieved previously by the FH &d the Rock-
nedle, Although' I had baen
to tbese allegations 8 bost of esgas1nation
efeller Comalggion with regard
continued Lrreaponaibly t0 eg8oclate @e with the
buffe &nd nedia advocates
brothers and the crippling of Governor Nallace .
deatha of tbe Kennedy
denled , I
re-entered priaon in Apr1l,1975. Tbree weeke
My Appeal
to Heghington DC fOr Mbat turned out to be
later 0S Karghala eacorted @e
utb 0 Dev
Watergata Agsistent Spacial Prosecutor. For
three-bowr Intervlev
I lodged et the Leeabarg,
Jell,and finally returped
9edey Va8
Mbere I 08
Ieprigaed in tbe igoletion @r0e
vie Detrolt Tallahaseee
on Hay 26
to Eglin Federal Frison Caapa 0 Hay 27,
before being driven
Counael Hchael Yadigan telephaed Me t0 88 tbat tbe
Asaistant Conalttee
t0 Intervieu ne rulthin the nert two vaeks" , I
Chburch Conalttee vanted
Of Public Lav 93-209 , Title 18. 8o.Lo82(c) Pare& 1
apprieed #a Hadlgen
anlawa security prlsqers aucb 09 to be
ananded) wiab euthoriees
for
Wp to 30 deys for purposea o testifyinga Comsel Iadigea
furloughed
to % tastifying 0
thla frlongb begle
I beard nothing further fraa Hra Hadigen
Ovar the bunszer,horever,
Than In aid-Sopteabor 0
Hachington FOST story
or bib Coandttee asgocletes:
that I had
ben a881med by & Khita Bouse guperior to asaa3sinate
alleged
Senator Churcb Ve8
thareupon quoted 88 saying
columigt Jack Andersana
would inveatigete the charge8 I talconed thl8 epperent
thet bls Conmttee
quoted
utb
and
Vee,
Priod
end
ryealf
agreed
==================================================
Page 56
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BWT- Cant 'd
e2-
ulty , for the allegatlons had gelned wide cradence Ghfle Old opporte
delayed respange appeared mly incoapletely in tbe pre8e. St1ll, nothlng
wa8 heard from the Commttee,
In December 1975 John Crewdgon of tbe Nev York Te8 intervieved_
me in prison. He agked if I kev enything ebout "#CIA a8gas8lnation cepee
bilitles" ed I related to ble V encounter with Cole Borie T, Paghe
9
Crevdgon then inquired whether tbe Church Cormittee bad intervleved nea
I regponded in terag Of the foregolng, noting thet I would bave teatified
ebout the Pegh encouter had I been glven the publicieed opportuitlee
intarvieu with m, Craddeon Vas
publlehed &nd shortly thereafter W
attorney Vad contacted by 0 reprebentative of the Conidtteee
I conbider 1t highly dlacrialnatory that tha Cornd ttee 10
wulllng to heve @e teetify $n Waehingta 08 0 furloughed #itneebe
Purther, the Coeadttee'8 refusal to postpae Intervieuing @e Ln prie
mtll one of tho couneel famdller utb D career and effatre 18 avaleble
placee De in 8
dlfficult positia with regard to ropresentation by Infored
legal comsela And, 08 during the Brvin Cordttee bearlng8 uboge cost in
legal feee to 20
approacbed #OO,000) I bogt pej legal {eeg Occe8loned
the interebt Of the Senate * 8 Retter Of n0 decernlble benefit to 580
b
Batveen laat Jennary md April I could freely beve treveled to
Mahlngton to teatify @& the pleasure of tbe Senete& Broa then 0 I could
beve been farloughed for that purpobe ed testifled sccoapenied by custoaary
couneel Uho ara not doh evadleble t0 @o6
Mevertbeleea, In denonatretion of
rlllogneea t0 cooperete fully vlth the Senate I 8080 t0 be intor-leded
mder oeth todare
7706076 Oee7
Be Bovard Bmt
7erz /0,/786
Ke
egeln
==================================================
Page 57
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