Transcript of 157-10002-10148.pdf
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157-10002-10148] 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F_ KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date:10/08/93
Page:1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER 157-10002-10148
RECORDS SERIES
TRANSCRIPT
AGENCY FILE NUMBER
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR SSCIA
FROM
To
TITLE
TESTIMOMY 0F JAMES P. 0' CONNELL
DATE 05/30/75
PAGES 168
SUBJECTS
MAHEU ROBERT
CASTRO
ASSASSINATION
CUBA
HUGHES
BI SSELL
VERONA
VARONA
HARVEY WILLIAM
ROSSELLI
GIANCANA
MAFIA
TRAFF ICANTE
CIA
ROWAN DAN
MCGUIRE _ PHYLLIS
DOCUMENT TYPE PAPER
0
TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION T
RESTRICTIONS REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW 09/30/93
OPEMING CRITERIA
[R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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Date:10/05/93
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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
COMMENTS
Box 255
Fo lder 4
[R] ITEM IS RESTRICTED
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7
Chairman Church Would you please take the oath?
8 2 Do You swear that everything you will testify to in
1
5 these proceedings shall be the truth, the whole truth and
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4
nothing but the truth, So help you God?
5 Mr _ 0 ' Connell I do .
TESTIMONY OF JAMS P 0 ' CONNELL 8
Mr Schwarz Woula you state your name?
8 Mr . 0 ' Connell_ My name is James P 0 'Connell
9 Mr. Schwarz And what is your address?
10 Mr = 0 ' Connell 4333Elsinore Avenue "Mclean @ Virginia
D
11
22104
12 Mr Schwarz Before we proceed substantively let me
1
13 just put on the record some matters
0
1
14
First, you understand that you have a right to counsel?
15
Mr _ 0 ' Connell_ I understand that. I just read it
16
Mr Schwarz Ana you should also be advised that you
have your rights under the Constitution
0
including
your 17
rights under the Fifth Amendment , if at any point you wish 18
to assert whatever rights that you do have that are under those
19
32
Constitutional provisions
20
8
Do You understand that?
21
L
Mr 0 Connell_ Yes
22
5
Mr Schwarz And if at any time you feel that You 23 1
need an attorney you have the. right to ask for an
24 1
8 attorney , do you understand that?
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pills?
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8 2 Mr 0 ' Connell The man that created then is] DE: Rasuona
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5 Trichler
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4 Mr = Schwarz Did he hand the pills to You?
5 Mr _ 0 ' Connell_ Yes
6 Mr . Schwarz _ Did he know what the pills were for?
7 Mr 0 ' Connell_ I don t think So .
8 Mr Schwarz But he knew they Were illegal?
9 Mr 0 ' Connell He knew they were illegal.
10 Mr Schwarz And were the pills not tried out on some
11 experimental subjects in the U.S. ?
12 Mr. 0 'Connell_ Yes
1
13 Mr Schwarz Ana proven to be lethal?
0
1
14 Mr . 0' Connell Nell _
0 to the extent T m I will tell You
that, we used them on hansters
15
Mr Schwarz And also monkeys?
16
Mr . 0' Connell No , as far a5 I know just the hamsters .
17
18 Mr _ Schwarz But anyway , You knew they were lethal
Mr 0 ' Connell Yes _
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3
Mr . Schwarz And you handed them over to Rosselli?
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Mr . 0 'Connell_ Yes
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Mr . Schwarz . And had the Technical Services made poison
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4 pills before as far as you know?
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1
Mr 0 ' Connell As far as I know I have no idea -
24 2
8 This was my first experience with that sort of thing.
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your possession , that might give you 3 more accurate timing thar
8 2
I am giving to you now
1 3
Mr Madigan _
We don t have it presently.
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4 Mr 0 'Connell. I am sure it is over there
5
Mr Wides . With regard to the discussion of authorization
would it have been following
on Mr Madigan
S point , that this
was a fairly serious and unusual operation that you were given ,
and that You would have asked , is this authorized? Or how did
9 the question of Mr Dulles authorizing it come uP, as best you
10 recall?
11 Mr 0 Connell I told you I knew that Mr Dulles I was
12 told that Mr Dulles had authorized I can t say quite when 1
0 13 it happened
p but I know I was told
1
14 Mr Wides You testified this morning I don t want
15 to put words in your mouth # mr
I thought you testified_ that you
16 Were sure that Mr Edwards told you at this meeting when he first
17 gave you the assignment that you were not sure that Mr Bissell S
18 also mentioned that when You later met in your office.
0
19 Mr 0 ' Cnnnell I would stick with that, yes I think it
8
20 probably was when I a when Colonel Edwards called me he i
21 said, this probably has the blesging of the DCI L
22 Mr _ Wides _ Do you know iflDr V :S Reegevelta who
4
23 was head of the Technical Services Division at the time was 11
24
Witnessing about this? 7
8
25 Mr 0 ' Connell I wouldn t want to bet my life that he
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1 wasn t . But he was at a meeting when the bills were delivered ,
8 2 and DRo Treichlar came over to Colonel Edwards office.
1
3 Mr Wides . But you don 't recall whether you ever knew
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4 that Roosev8lt knew what it was in connection with as distinct
5 from merely knowing it was a lethal pill, is that right?
6 Mr 0 Connell- I can 't say to my personal knowledge =
the discussion never came up when I was there I don t think
he is a dummy , and I don t thinkEreiahles is any dummy _ and
9 I think they had a general idea _
10 But as far as I know they were never officially told _
11 Mr Wides To your knowledge , before you went overseas
12 no one else in the office of Security , Mr Bannerman , Mr 1
4 13 White or Mr Hall, none of those men or anyone else knew about
1
14 the project, only yourself and Mr Edwards?
15 Mr 0 'Connell_ Well , I would say this, to my knowledge
16 Gere never briefed_ However I think I brought up an
17 incident this morning where Colonel Edwards was on leave and
18
Colonel King
called Mr Bannerman
8
who was his
19 deputy_
0
and assumed that Bannerman knew all about it and starte
3
20
talking about it, what are we going to do about
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21 this
a I don 't know what the conversation was about _ And L
22 Bannerman called in and said what was this all about?
4
23 Mr Wides _ This was in 1962 before you left?
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24 Mr 0 'Connell Yes . It was while I was up in the office_
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25 And I said, I don t have the authority to brief you on it.
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1 Mr Wides Were you ever aware, whether you were formally
8 2 notified or just got a rumble or heard through the grapevine ,
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3 that the CIA was getting some information about these threats ,
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4 or some information about groups who might pose a threat in the
5 Washington area , not from Bureau sources or military sources ,
6 but from CIA sources , did you ever hear any rumble of that kind
7
Mr 0 'Connell. Yes .
8
Mr Wides _ What did you hear?
9 Mr _ 0' Connell The only way I got involved in it was that
10 oward Osborn would have a nine 0 'clock meeting every
11 morning with his deputies _
12 And they had a proprietary organization in the Office of
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0 13 Security which I think had informants
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14 Now I don t know their identities but it would come out
15 in the meeting, and they would have some names for them _ I
16 couldn t tell you what were
17 Mr Madigan _ What was the proprietary called?
18 Mr 0'Connell. The name that strikes me an and I
19 know part of but I couldn t tell you exactly
4 I think it
2
20 was Hndesgeq
8
21 Mr Madigan_ Andetson Stuaie L
Yr
Mr 0 'Connell Enderson Stuart something like that
4
23 Mr Wides You say you think they had informants?
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24 Mr 0 'Connell They obviously did
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I guess _
8
because the
1
8
25 way this would come out , so-and-so advised at a meeting last
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1 night .
8 2 Mr Wides If you associate that with "Andessene
L pol?3
you must have been told more than just, we have an informant .
1
How would it be discussed at the meeting , through this
5 proprietary we have access to information?
Mr 0 ' Connell it usually would be the Deputy
Director that that was under And that was under OIS
8 Mr Wides . Victor White?
9 Mr 0 ' Connell Victor White.
10 Mr Wides _ And what would he say about how_Bqela1so@
11 fitted into the picture?
12 Mr _ 0 ' Connell That never came up . I just drew that
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0 13 conclusion , that they had potential_
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14 Mr Wides _ Why would you assume that they used a proprie-
15 tary as opposed to just having
some agents penetrate a group?
16 would you think in terns of their using the Dadersen
17 Mr . 0 'Connell I can tell you what I think
18 First of all, I wouldn t want to use government employees
19 Mr _ Wides _ couldn t the CIA personnel just run
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20 agents who woula be
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21 Mr 0 ' Connell That is in fact what they were doing _ |
22 These people that were proprietary were not CIA employees They
W
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23 were Tontract teams
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24 Mr _ Wides would you have thought that would have 1
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25 gone the route of using the proprietary people as opposed to
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Why
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7
Did you have any knowledge during the 1970-1971 time frame
8 2 of any effort outside of Florida with regard to Cubans to fire
1
3 on the Keys or on the Florida area there with a boat that
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4 woula be disguised as a Russian boat , which was really
a
5 group of people_
0 some of whom were assets of the Agency?
6 0 'Connell_ No
7 Mr Madigan_ You never heard of anything like that?
8 Mr 0 'Connell Nothing of that, no .
9 Mr Madigan _ Did you ever run across a fellow by
10 the name of Jerry Henning in your
'dealing with Roselli
11 and Maheu?
12 Mr 0 Connell_ No .
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0
13 Mr Madigan _
You never heard of the name?
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14 Mr 0 'Connell I never heard of the name
15 Mr Madigan _ Did you handle the Agency contact with Mr
16
Maheu about having him coordinate Or set up or be involved
17
in Che Eupp ying @Ea
femala 20 ihus 8one1gn qQeadem ack74n719503
18 Mr 0 'Connelll. A couple of them , as a matter of fact _
19 Mr Madigan _ A couple B2 3[ore190 1eaders}
{
Mr 0 'Connell Yes _ 20
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21 Mr Madigan_ What was your involvement in that? Am I L
22
right about 19592
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Mr . 0 ' Connell It could be There were two different
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occasions
24 1
3
25 Mr . Madigan _ What is your recollection as to the dates?
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Mr.0 'Connell Well the first one was about
8 2 1959_
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3 Mr Madigan _ And how did that come about? Why did it go te
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4 you in the Office of Security as opposed to T #
5 Mr 0 'Connell Just like this other one came down from the
DDP
0
it came from the Division , as
7 I recall it And was coming into the
8 Mr Wides Off the record
9 (Discussion off the record.)
10 Mr Madigan _ What did your first contact with Maheu
11 with regard to this project involve?
12 Mr 0 'Connell Well , the request came to the Security
1
13
Mr Madigan_ It came down to you?
0
8
{ 14 Mr 0'Connell_ It came through Colonel Edwards
15 Mr Madigan_ To you?
16 Mr 0 'Connell Yes_ And Ehe seeuireneds wasa @ertai ky2el
"Renate tho woujd ateraCE €613 Tenetgn leadas
Lk
He_wanted femalel
17
8ompantenshie
18
Mr Madigan_ Hhe ieader?
19
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Mr 0 Connell "he Teader @a2"
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Mr Madigan _ So did you contact Maheu directly?
21 |
Mr 0 'Connell_ Yes _
22
4 Mr Wides In this instance you were talking about
23
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arleader Iho wouud be @ lneriez 01 Sueply @ompamuonship
24 1
2 Werever the'leader Was ak2ead?
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1 Mr 0 'Connell Bse Was Viez New Yorko_avaie was'
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2 tpropeged Zt_ bezal sta tervirg@ EZzand Y5@ Cf@E Eh3Andhheyreatzy
8
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3
wanted sone female companionship. And his casetofficer the
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Agency S case @fficer that was handling the leader said
8
5 _
let' s stick to busihess, while you agetn New York And we will
6
take you out to the West Coast @nd that is going to be a
7
pleasure trip, and we willasee thad you meet the right people _
8
So Maheu lined Vp tehis young lady Awho was a starlet, a
9
little cutie, andeehey knew the type he likedz size and
everything
10
{So; Ehey lewua eo@ktaitjarjy, Yli Nesy inr@rnal
11
eektail [arsy
12
{
Mr Madigan _ Iaheu @jaz
6 13
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Mr 0'Connell It was:
70 ax
lowy naned G@zegg Bautzer
0 Ble
14
uus2d 180 be mazrjed eo B@me Vemy_Bamous 0895e33p ad me Janows
15
just apeut anything and everything that walks wn Skirts in L.A
16
and Hollywood:
17
So Maheu calledaeregg and asked him if he could come up
18
with some thing according +o ceitain specs And he did And she
19
2
was placed in the righe atmosphere 38
Ehe right time and the
20 8
leader went_head over heels in love with her , Gheextent
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Ehar?zE wasabeyendziwhaz We_plannede He neally Eell in Love Wi th
22
Wj Iez
0 1; 23
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Mr Madigan . Was adrellew named Noisman Peul_Lavolved
24 7
(1n this?
8
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1 Mr 0 'Connell Nox Nousal paui az @we Eimel Was Ehz
8 2 Thead @Z_Eb@ Divsiyom {hai8 T nentioned lieg1e wite agoa Eut
1
3 he wasn t involved in it
1
4 So What we thought was going to be a Palsing fancy , he
5
decided he had go back to New York he insisted that she
6 go back with him
7 Well _
0
this was getting tle embarrassing because here
8 he is the head of his couery and he has this gal on the
strings
10 we agreed to it and she agreed but we had to
11
her in one hotez
4 #= she was staying at the waldorf -
12 Astoria aa he was staying in another place Andwe got a
{
13
"house @ut in' Long Ieland 8@. @hey cula bave @ej gzendevouz;
0
1
14
zalke @hey wouid Spendzona Eilma 0ogeekes
15
Mr Madigan _ Was ehat aw Zlgency heuse?
Mr 0'Connell we atenged[ Ehehruse UErom @@iivage
16
iadivdaual wb@ Was a: Eijend @Esewebody to was with €le
17
Agency
18
Mr Madigan Did %ou bardle {lat?
19
2
Mr 0 ' Connell Eieid @zeic8 bandled Uae, Ebe 20
i
Tew Yovk Gield @fEiceo
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Mr Madigan _ TOE lbe_@Efice 03_secugkey?
22
4 Mr _ 0 'Connell Tery handied procuzing €he house @ut 1@
23
1
Eeng Tgland: Ad then: ebey alse SupeLeed_peojle G@ Stay WiEb
24 1
8 Le%oung lady wte Skle Was 1n Neww Yorki Because @ie@
25
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got
So , it, keep
#Noo
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Want 2@ have hes Suning_around
CcD
i2 wasm
Jolding bera
8 2 Fagalnse her Willv: #e tiag juse j@u gzve ber gemebody thzg gouzd
1
5 7sgist bes 1 2n87 requjgemenes Bb9 had whize 8ke Wats waleing [@5
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4 {@ke Jeadez
5 Mr Madigan _ And was that the end of that particular
6 project that you recall?
7 Mr_ 0 'Connell _ That was the end of it @xcept that we ad
8 Ks@me 1ejzrcuss@1so Whaze ke went @aek 8o bii @ountry
9 and was jovesick and he was going to give Upreehe throne _
0
10 which would have @aused all sorts of consternation in the Agenc} ,
11 because that was the lasbg1 thai the Agency wanted to leave
12 But he was communicatsng with her for a while and then
{
0 13
eventually
we get her a job in a local mugjeal that is
1
14
zeally &11 thegshe Was interegied tylng 2@ Wake 1t #@ ekel
15
@heates
0
Ad _ tley dsBted a Eke subsequenely magried
Q
16 Mr Wides Nlld_ebe Ageney mo@TEo1 @be majl_ beuween @im
17
an te Jadyo @uber J2fore' Bb@ g€ 1y @1 after Sk@ '383|
Mr 0 ' Connell Yeso
18
19 Mr Wides [Bejeise? Did" 2621 inueieeie @be maizo @I bow wa
3
20
"Ebe mall handledr @hirougk epeejal @hannels?
U
0
Mr 0 ' Connell Wa sez @p 2
pose @geice box @% bis segqesto
21 L
22
@n weserViced @b@ @o9
W
v
23 Mr Wides dAnd weuld You look &f €he mail 6820132 ig was
1
[assed 01?
24 1
8 Mr 0 Connell 4 woulel"€
25
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1 Mr Wides _ Dia the Agewcy?
8 2
Mr 0 ' Connell The agencYo
1
3 Mr Wides DDid Eha lead@s knowk8k1atz7
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4 Mr 0 'Connell N@a
5
Mr Wides Mnd Jow da t2 Tegters g0 back @ {Ozth3
6 Mr _ 0 'Connell 3 dewl knowe Werwould jugz 2r5sr i& @NC
{o the Divisiono
Mr Wides Did Sbe undergtand ebag @e @geney Was 8@ue
9 Fhow Jvolved 3, tbe pasgage @E getu@ mail Grsow tbe Zaayy
10 {280 {Ele wozld leader, tat 8k1 Just didn'e '3e @@ eel
11 majLbox @@: Ehe_@oislerz?
Ltor
12 Mr 0 'Connell 'Sbe @eliverea f8 %0 Sonebedy up J tke 2zelt
1
0 13 "@Eitce as I secall
66 den#g' hoild me {45
ebato bug 5 tkink thaz
1
14 was i€ 6Q and then I€ wab @eng do1 d@ headgjuar tereo
15 Mr Mides Wes iG,You imgueseiom that @he Agengy gead
16
'Ebag Mail; } 00@0 @@} "jes-waly Jack?
17 Mr 0 Connell 2 oul imaginel because #€ goe @ut @E
18 @uiz_ conzrolo
19 Mr Nides Lez mg go backo
2
20 Wieh tegard 20 Ebe mazl &ouing 18 1@ Yovg aginaezonz
8
21 8on d@ eD bave tnformation Lhal {he Zgency
las
looking |
22 @az the lettens?
4
23 Mr 0 ' Connell I kew ehaz Was
Jejng @one
a 1
24 Mr Wides Eou know Esaon [ersonal knowledge, @s You weise 1
8
25 Gozd bY people uolved?
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1 Mr 0 ' Connell- 1 Was toldn @be_jeople tat pe1s d@ing €
2 goj, meo 8
1
3 Mr Wides Thag {hey Were ageqelly reading (he nasll ad 2k81
L
4
g1v4n9 J2 G@ @he Jady2
5 Mr . 0 ' Connell yes
6 Mr Wides Hrd 280 {Bar 29 yo4 kel wieboug eichez nartr
7 awaie @f &he gage?
8 Mr 0 'Connell Yes
9 Mr Madigen _ Yousaid there was a second instance .
10
Wal_thene @ Becond Inseance Waich dnvvozved @ Bemaje
11
32 2hg @euntsyv @G Was 1g Eendung @e @verseas?_
12
Mr < 0 ' Connell Zle 9151
Wag secruzted J@ @llg @@unessyv @uel
{
Sle 0s seniz @7Oissease
0 13
1
14
Mr Madigan Qqat @haz was Ithe Jeades you bad coza QS aow
eazller @B2 ehe gecord?
15
Mr 0 'Connell Yee 16
Mr Madigan @d Was_@bat @aeire gigwazion banaied @Mersea
17
#rzen %w @mc@ g@t @Ve1 {heise?
18
Mr 0 Connell eso
19
2
Mr Madigan Was theie an business @E ehe leades
20
i
Goming ba@k here Wieh hess?
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Mr 0 Connell WNoz Meh hera Ee @ame bagk sqetimer mayb
22
YC t4 wj
6
@ Year lalero ad waleed Lo To whetler he @oula 8ee bez
23
1
agaj
0 Ena we mada asrzalgements [or hes {0 @jtend "Ebe @arty
24 7
8 Ehat was give@ Kay Seara the_slnger
O
Znd_they tehszew
a 25
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1
(jgele cooktazl asty hino I Eiiuk dc was30 San Eranciecoo
8 2 UAd we @lad @ba g2ln we g@t 1@_touch weh ber 'agaj0, 8be &31
1
3 teend_@be Jasey
0
Bue %v Was 82 geciel axgalr
0
ad Eheie ws
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4 D@ @peratiod involved _a 180
5 Mr Madigan _ Did Maheu set that up?
6 Mr _ 0'Connelll Yes
7
Mr Mdigan . Both the original contact and the later; party
8 in San Francisco?
9 Mr 0 'Connell Yes
10 Mr Madigan And were those the only two times now that
11
he was involved in the operations field?
12 Mr _ 0 ' Connelll. Oh , no . He did a lot of other things _
1
13
Mr _ Madigan _ Let me ask you this question
0
1
14
When Maheu was having his problems with the authorities ,
was there any reference back to his involvement in those kind
15
16
activities , or was the only discussion about his role in
the so-called assassination plot?
17
Mr 0 'Connell_ Well, I am not even So sure that gotl
18
into that aspect of it. It was just that he was involved
~}
19
8
to the extent that he had set up the operation against Rowan _
20 8
or he was the one that got in touch Ivith DuBois to do it.
21 |
Mr . Wides When did you come back from overseas?
22
Wj
v Mr 0 'Connell July of 1965 _
23
1
Mr Wides After you came back did You learn of a time ,
24 1
8 either after you came back or very shortly before you came
25
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veillance?
7
8 2 Mr 0 ' Connell- Never to my knowledge he never got
1
5 involved in that, officially
or otherwise
1
4 Mr Wides _ Or surreptitious entry?
5
Mr 0 'Connell He did one surreptitious entry for uS once
6 Mr Wides What were the specifics of that?
7 Mr 0 'Connell There were a group of] Ereiniar students _
8
Ihe_Agewcy Was NSp0@S054ng Ehem #and_hey were going €o the
9
Georgetow Soka1 'Linguiselesz And they were staying
10
in a rooming house up there right outside of Georgetown some -
11
here _ And one of the students came to the case @REiceerz.
12
ana said that one of the group was acting very suspiciously ,
1
13
taking a lot of notes where they Were not supposed to be taking
0
1
14
notes Or: certainly. after operational briefings and he would go
back to his room and he would write voluminous notes And 15
he thought that was very strange that this guy was not acting
16
as he should
17
And that aroused the suspicion lezene ecase Qfficer?
18
And wanted to know whether we would get in and photo-
19
1
graph what he was writing to see whether he was really
20 8
violating his agreement .
21 L
So I called Maheu and he went up to the rooming house and 22
4 he went to the people who owned the house and asked if
23
1
had a room to rent and she had one And he did know where the
24 1
8 students were staying. And she showed him One room And
25
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1 he said anything up on thenext floor? And as luck would
8 2 have it, she had the adjacent room
1
3 So he brought what would appear to be a suitcase up there
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4 which was his photographic equipment And we knew the students
5 were in school
#
and Febe @ase @EEjcer] was going to alert uS if
6 came back , So he wouldn t get caught in the act.
And he went in it was a very simple matter . It was
8 a tin box that he could open with a paper clip and he took it out
and photographed it, and the case back in the drawer and
10 locked up and left.
11
But Ebe @ze @fEi2@w was a gal, a woman And she was
12
looking at one part of the school over there _ And this guy
1
0 13 comes out the back door And as Maheu was coming down the
9
< 14 stairs the students were coming up, with amatter of maybe
15 a split second timing
16 Mr Madigan_ This wasn t Mendoz?
17 Mr 0 ' Connell_ No [[is Was aZDD@ case_o8Eiceie
18 Mr Wides _ What period was this that we are talking
19
about?
2
20 Mr 0 'Connell This would have been about 1955 _
8
Mr Wides And other than that, and the two incidents
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involving female companioship , what other kinds of sensitive
4
23
things would he undertake? Was that in the period that you
11
were paying him 500 a month?
24 1
8
25 Mr _ 0 Connell We stopped paying the 500 way back when he
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1 nature as opposed to routine?
8 2 Mr _ 0 Connell Ne had word that they wanted to
26 4 1
3 caipparently ghig E8reignzleaderzhad ~visited_the 'Kremlin; @andawe
07-
1
4
were
reagonablyEcertafi
he Was %uieega adys 23 man and-he
8
5
lked just-about_any_time Eoze accom@daged
6
S83 wetknew_Ehat he 'went to the KremTin ana _geayed 2g @e'
7 TkzenlineAnd @he Diviaion wanged .S #9zcoma Dg_Wienta Biuiated
8
phorogaph @272 1214 Ehag Showed _bim 9@jng ehrzougl gbe_@Ct3QE}
9
{eakiung @WT @, Eemale Ena Aulgea 2 baek @@2 ghat
10
oeked 111a 328 Was 12 2 7oom qn %he Kzen1np and ouesiae
11
Y1&oula s8 @he tolers Jana evezyehingo and theEu -eurge was
12
@deordng €o Waz} they Jad
1
And this was all done by people that knew generally what
0 13
1
looked like
14
Now we got Bob to make that film_
15
Mr Wides I8 {jereenrect Jbaj tbe 4geney knew ehat Ee 16
Seviets hads madeza_fi lm_8fceherforefgn leader whan He was 17
Russia: %nd wasrhping to have+a counEerfeit Ffilm which they"would
18
cciculate_ in the country ther making Eheforeign-Leader
19
3
ang5Y at the Soviets was that the purpose?
20
8
Mr 0 'Connell_ HI7 don Eknow wheEherthey knew that the
21 |
Seyiets had_madethe filma But the purpose of the exercise
22
Wi
6 Was to have_a_ film_circulated in his own _ country-,_or
23 1
neighboring countries that woula make him quite upset_with
24 1
8
25
the_Soviets::=
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ey
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eby
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Mr Wides ZYou _meanzzhey Ehought that the Russian:
8 2 had made a Ffi4m?
1
3 Mr 0 'Connell SYes to embarrass hin
1
4 Mr Madigan _ And that was accomplished as far as you know?
5
Mr 0 ' Connell _ The film was made _
8
but they never did
6 release it, because things started to get better With the
7 leader and felt that they wouldn t use it.
8 Mr Madigan _ Were Agency facilities used by Maheu for
9 the production of this thing?
10 Mr 0 ' Connell No _ I hired a small independent studio ih
11
Los Angeles _
12 Mr Madigan _ And did Agency officials fly out there
1
13 the ones that knew about the backdrop and all that? How was
6
1
14 that done?
15 Mr 0 'Connell It seems to me that they were just
at this point I am not too sure whether they superimposed it,
16
17 I guess is the word , with that background I am not So
18 sure at this point , it has been So long ago . That was away in
the mid-fifties =
19
I
Mr Wides Could we get back to the question that we had
20
i
started on , which was the files and where they woula exist?
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22
You said that the operational files from all of your dealing
4
with him would be in the Family Jewels , because they were all
23
1
sensitive admissions
24 2
8 Mr 0 Connell_ Yes _
25
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1 Mr 0 Connell No
$
8 2 Mr Wides . Or Max Gonzales _
1
3 Mr 0 'Connell- No .
1
4 Mr Wides _ Nhile you were down there 0t
and this
5 may overlap the question that Mr Madigan asked before but
6 I think it is a little more did you have any awareness of
any other efforts apart from Mr Verona by Cubans in connec -
8 tion with the Agency to and assassinate Castro?
9 Mr 0 'Connell No , none whatsoever
10 Mr Wides . I don 1 t have any other questions_
11 Mr Madigan _ In your operational activities with Mr
12 Maheu
0
particularly in the New York area , did you ever have con
1
0 13 tact with a private investigator by the name of A . J.
8
} 14 Woolston-Smith?
15 Mr 0' Connell No , I never heard of him
16 Mr Nides Do you know there were two field
17 offices in New York , two iffices in Manhatten?
18 What was the difference?
19 Mr 0 'Connell- The cover {@nerwas under Treasury_cover
1
20 and the other under Defense
i
21 Mr Wides_ Were there two offices? |
22 Mr 0 'Connell they had them , it just grew like
Wj
6i 23
Topsy . They had two offices in Washington
0
and they had two
11
24 offices in New York_ And really the basis
MR
it was that that 1
8
25 was the way they started_ they figured needed two
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why
Why ,
they
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1
1 different type covers because Of the type of work they Were
8 2 doing .
1
5 Mr Wides_ What would the New York offices do as dis-
2
4 tinct from the Manhattan offices , or vice versa?
5 Mr 0 ' Connell Nothing. They were
basically investigative
6 offices
7 Mr Wides. They just happened to have two?
8 Mr 0 Connell They had two eOnerwaisidowntowneisgbt 0fft
9 WaLl ineeiiandriletotnezton 8 Rie1Jake7z4 2h3" Sere.
10 The Manhattan field office _ And then they eventually merged .
11
Now they are over on Wdian @Vcmuei I think
12 Mr Wides _ Thank you very much_ That concludes the sessio
1
0 13 And we appreciate your staying SO long .
1
14 Whereupon , at 1:25 p.M . , the hearing was concluded . )
end
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