Transcript of 104-10423-10337.pdf

================================================== Page 1 ================================================== aaaa @042104330337) 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 TAL ~LASSIFTCTTT6 PROCESSING DISPATCH S-E-C-R-E-T pro' Action Accom: Posed DLieiizd To MARKED For inoexing Chiefs_of all Stations X No Indexing Required INFO, OnLY QUALIFIED MEADQUAPTERS DESK CAN Judg e INDEXing From ADStrAcT Chief KUDOVE Micaofilm SudJECT Warren Commission _Testimony Selected_Excerpts_ action required references FYI 1, The Warren Commission'$ Report on the assassination of President Kennedy focuged attention on the magnitude of the problem involved in the protection of the Chief Executivee As you know, it is our respon= sibility, overseas and in headquarters, to render every support posSible to the Secret Service in the conduct of its statutory responsibilities in the United States, and especially when the President travels abroad. 20 The circumstance & confronting the Warren Commission produced discusgion and testimony On various aspects of the problem of Presidential protection and' on interagency operational cooperation, which normally do not find their way into the public domain: These include the acquisition and dissemination of information, consultati coordination, and operational interchanges. I believe you will be interested in the attached extracts of tegtimony given before the Warren Commission by U.S. intelligence and security officials _ Pertinent portions have been side lined. I commend these materials for reading by all officers in pogitiong of genior responsibility in headquarters and overseas, IL FLETCHER M, KNIGHT DATE TYpEd DATE Disp AtchEd 2 FEB @-J 23 Dec. 1964 |cRoss] REFERENcE To Digp^Tch SymBOl AND NumdeR Book_Dispatch Nos_ 4726 headQuaRTerg File NumBER Classficatiom 100-300-12 S-E-C-R-E-T Umi Ltera 'xk on, ================================================== Page 2 ================================================== 13-00000 S-E-C-R-E-T Distribution For. Book Dispatch No . 4726 AF Division EE Division Abidjan Athens IAccra Bern Addis Ababa Frankfurt 'Aigiers Nicosia Bamako_ Vienna {Brazzaville} 'Bijumbura conakry 'bakan) Dar-es-Salaam Freetown The above listing has been Kampala reviewed in the EE Division. Khartoum Lagos Leopoldville} (Initials) Lome Lusaka FE Division Mogadiscio Monrovia] (Bangkok Nairobi] Djakarta iPretoria (Hong Kong] Rabat Honolulu Salisbury] Kuala Lumpur [ananarive Manilal T Melbourne Tunis 'Okinawa Yaounde Rangoon Saigon_ Seoul Taipei Tokyo The above listing has been Vientiane} reviewed in the AF Division. Wellington lv (Initials) The above listing has been reviewed in the FE Division. 3Q_ (Initials) S-E-C-R-E-T ripoli ================================================== Page 3 ================================================== 13-00000 S-E-C-R-E-T Distribution For Book Dispatch No. 4726 NE Division WE Division [Aden Brussels_ Amman Copenhagen Ankara The Hague] BBaghdad Helsinki Beirut Lisbon (Cairo London {Colombo Luxerb Damascus Madrid 'Jidda Oslo Kabul Ottawa Karachi Paris Kathmandu Paris LCPIPIT ] Kuwait 'Reykjavik New Delhi Rome Tehran Istockholm The above li has been The above listing has been reviewed in the NE Division: reviewed in tn? WE_Division. (Initials) (Initial;) -2 - S-E-C-R-E-T sting ================================================== Page 4 ================================================== 13-00000 S-E-C-R-E-T Distribution For Book Dispatch No. 4726 WH Division (Asuncion Bogota Buenos Aires 'Caracas Georgetownl 'Guatemala_Cityl Kingston_ 'La Paz 'Lima (Managua _ Mexico Montevideo Panama Cityl Paramariboj Port-au_Prince Port of Spain] Quito Rio de Janeiro San Jose 127Ju San Salvador_ 'Santiago Santo Domingg Tegucigalpa} The above listing has been reviewed in the WH Division. (Initials) -3 - S-E-C-R-E-T City) ================================================== Page 5 ================================================== 13-00000 S-E-C-R-E-T Headquarters Distribution for Book Dispatch No. 4726 2 DDP 2 ClwE ADDP ClWE/l Cl OPSER C/WE/2 CITSD ClwE/3 #att#n 1 Siccs 1 CIWE/s ClSOD C/WEIBC ClCI CIFI ClwH C/wHl 2 CIAF ClwH/2 C/AF/I C/wH/3 CIAF/2 C/wH/4 1 S/AFI? [ WIWCOS ClAF/5 WHIPOA C/AF/6 WHI POB WHI Plans 2 CIEE CIEEIG CI/R&A ; C/EEIK CI/ LIA C(EEISA CI/ OPSI AF CI/ OPSIEE CIFE/CH [ SI/OPS/NE C/FEIHULA CI/ OPSISS 1 ClFE/ PXG GLOPSIWE C/FEITBL ClFEIVNC 1L RID 2 C/NE C/NE/I DC/NEIAA 1 C/NEl 4 C/NE/5 C/NE/ 6 Originated by: Chief, CIIR&A, Ext. 7468/23 December 1964 @ml me.A.e, Doo Ex4.6748 S-E-C-R-E-T Lex' ================================================== Page 6 ================================================== 13-00000 AkaN #. Bnnent 0 SsiSmnr Te Tr |rrbcik ) F8 | 2) MaY 6) 196h Mr: STERN. I thlnk he might be able to highlight the answer: We heve the exact angwer on 'the record, and I thought It might The CEATBMAN. Well, highlight it, if there is anything in addition I would tbink that would be relevant and pertinent; But to ask him to parephrase that which he hag done with great meticulousness would seem to me to be abortive and would take & lot of our time, and I don't see what it would prove: If you bave anything in addition that you want to ask him, if you want to a8k him if there is anything in addition he has not put in there, that is &ll right. But to just ask him to paraphrase answers tbat have been done with great care would geem to me to be confusing the record, and gerve no purpose: Mr: STEBN. I might ask, Mr. Belmont, whether there 1g anything you would like to add or amplify In thege questions? Mr. BELMONT: I belleve the answers speak for themselves, although in view of Mr. McCloy'8 questiong & little while &g0, I would be very bappy to make clear ouI approach to thig matter: For example, the fact that our Interest in defector8, in thig case, i8 ghown by the fact thet W early November 1959 we opened a file on Oswald based o the newspaper publicity a8 to his defectlon And the fact that he bad applied to renounce his citizenghip: We checked our fleg then to see was thls & man we had a record 0, and found that we had & fngerprint record golely based on hie enlistment in the Marlnes: We had no other record on him but we' placed & gtop or a fagh notice in our ingerprint fleg, at that time 8 that If he ghould come back into the . country ~nvcv unbeknownst to us and mto wme sort of trouble we would be Immedlately notided: That 18 our opening interest in tbe cabe Wlth the thought in mind that ghould be come back to the country we would want to know from hlm whether he had been enlisted by Soviet intelligence In gome manner: That Is our procedure because of our experience that these thing8 bave pened, and we congider It Our responsibility to gettle that Igsue whenever we can: Mr. STEBN . Could you explain, Mc_ Belmont, thls procedure . Of placing 8 stop In the fleg that you Just referred to? Mf: BELMONT We merely notify our identifcation divslon to place what we call & fash notice In the man'8 fngerprint fle, whlch meang that ghould he be arrested and the fngerprints be gent to the FBI, that the appropriate diviglon, Ln thls case the domestic Intelllgence dlvlgion, would be notlied that tbe man bad been arrested, for what and where he wag arrested, thus enabllng u9 to center our attention an hlm . Our :next interest In thle man arose a8 9 regult Of the fact that hls mother bad gent, I believe, 825 to him in Moscow, 80 we went to her in April 1980 and we talked to her: At.that time ghe told u8 tbat he had told her that he would possibly attend the Albert Schweitzez College in Swltzerland: So a8 & followup; we had ou' legal attache In Paris make inquiry to 8ee whether he had enrolled In thig college: The regultant check gbowed that whlle they had expected him and 4,deposlt had been placed that he dd not ghow up at the college: Mr: STERN: I think that Is &l covered In qulte adequate detail in the angwer to the frst questlon. Mr: DOLLEB: I have One questlon.I would Ike to put to you on the frgt queg- tlon and answer In your letter of April 6, In Exhlbit 833 the Bureau'g letter of April 6. You refer, frgt, to the fact that the frgt newg you got about Oswald wag from a newg gervice Item, and' then later on at tbe bottom of the gecond full paragraph you state, "A fle concerning Oswald wa8 prepared and 88 communications were received from other O.S. Government ` agencies tbose communications were placed In his fle " The record: may show the other communlcatlons, I guess our record does show, but do you feel that you adequately were advised by the State Department a8 thlg cage developed Or by the CIA or other agencleg that might have known about It? Mr. BELMONT. Yes: We received a number: of communicatlong from other agencles, and we get up a procedure whereby we periodically checked the State Department pagsport fle to be kept advlged of his activitles or his dealings wlth the Embagsy In Moscow 80 that on a periodic basis we were gure we had all information In the State Department fle: get bap ================================================== Page 7 ================================================== 13-0000 We received communlcations from the Navy, and from other agencieg: Mr: DOLLEB_ Is there any general procedure with respect to Americans abroad who into trouble: Do you informed so in case they come back you can take adequate precautionary measures? Is that established SOP? Mr. BELMONT: Yes, Mr: Dulles: We do receive such information, and if we Yaaar: pick up the information initially as we did here, from press reports Or otherwige, we go to the other agencies and ask them whether they have any information and 'establigh an interest there So that if they have not voluntarily furnished us the Informa:ion: they will do 80, upon our request Mr: DOLLEB. Thank you: Mr: STERN . On page %, Mr: Belmont, in the answer to question No. 3, the gecond paragraph, could you tell u8 why the EBI preferred to interview Oswald after he had established residence and wby it was not preferable to Interview him upon his arrival in New York? Mr: BELMONT: Thig Is a matter of experience: Generally speaking when an individual such as Oswald arrives back in the country and the presg is there, there 18 an unusual interest In hlm: Immigration and Naturallzation Servlce bag 8 function to perform, and we prefer, unlegs there is a matter of urgency, to let the Indlvidual become gettled in residence It Is @ much better atmogphere to conduct the Interriew, and to the Information tbat we geek: If It 18 a matter of urgency, we will Interview him Immediately upon arrival. Mr; STERN. On page 4 Mr: Belmont, In your answer to question No: 6, wa8 76 1t ordinary procedure for Agent Faln to re-interview Oswald 80 soon after hi8 frst Intervilew under the circumstances? I8 there anything unusual about that? Mr: BELMONT, There I9 nothing unugual whatsoever: Agent Fain Intervlewed Oswald on June 26, 1983_1962, I belleve It wa8, WAs it not? The" CEAIHAN. Yes ; 1962. Mr: BELMONT: And was not gatisfed that he bad received all the information he wanted nor that It was & matter that ghould be cloged at that time: Tberefore; he set out & lead to re-intervlew Oswald, and after an appropriate period he went back and re-interviewed him: This is within the prerogative of the Investigative agent, and certainly *f be wa8 not satisded with tbe @cst Intervlew it wa8 his duty and responsibilty to pursue the matter until he was satleded: Mr: STERN. In your answer to questlon No. 5, does the response of Oswald to the question why he went to Rugsla seem typical 'to you 0f the returned defector, or unusual? Mr: BELMONT: There is nO such thing a8 a typical response: Each case i8 an individual case, and 18 decided On Its merits and On the background of the indivldual, and the circumgtances gurroundlng it; Mr. STEBN_ Would It be usual for the defector to agree to advise you if he got a contact ? Are they generally that cooperative? Mr: BELMONT: We &sk them because we want to know, and the purpose 0f our Interview with him was to determine whether be bad been recruited by the Soviet intelligence, and we agked him whether he would tell uS if he was cOD- tacted here in this: country. He replied he would: Whether he meant it is & question. However, you must bear in mind that this man, I believe it wag when he wag interviewed in July of 1961 in the American Embassy, the inter- viewing oficial there said it was apparent that he bad learned his lesson the bard way, and tbat he had 8 new concept of the American way of life, and apparently had decided that Russia was not for him. When we Interviewed him likewise he told us that he bad not enjoyed his stay In Ruesia: He likewise commented that he had not enjoyed his stay in the Marineg: So that in direct answer to your question, it is customary for us in guch a 'cage &9 this, to agk the man if he will report a contact, and it is customary for hlm to say yes, because frankly, he would be putting himself in 9 rather bad light If he didn't 8ay yes Mr: STBBN Turning to Mr: DOLLEB. Could I ask a question there Do I correctly read your report and thoge of your agents to the general effect that you had no evidence that there was any attempt to recrult Oswald in the Onited States? Mr: BELMONT; No evidence whatgoever: get get get ================================================== Page 8 ================================================== 13-00000 in vlew: Of the fact that we have practically -we have all the reports, he Baye we bave all the reports that are in that file, and it just seems like thrashlng old straw to go over it and over it again: Mr: MCCLOY. Do we bave copies of all these telegramg that are in here from the Embagsy ? Mr: BELMONT You are looking at Mr: McCLox. Not Embassy bere is one from Mexico. Do we bave tbat? We don't have these in our fles, for example: Mr; BELMONT. This is subsequent to the assaggination: You see your area of interegt at this point is information, all informatlon we bad prior to the agsasgination: I did not remove from this fle the items that started to come In gubsequent to the assassination, YOU see; Mr. MoCror. My feeling is that gomebody o the Oommission ghould examine that fle: I can't come to any other: conclusion after reading it all, because I don't know what i8 In it, what I8 in our.record, and what Ig in that fle There 1g & good bit of material there that i8 narrative; which I think would be relevant: Certainly, I don't believe we can be posgibly criticized for deleting Or not pro- ducing a fle which containg the type of Information that you are gpeaking Of. We are Just &8 Interested in protecting the gecurity of your investigative prOc- egses a8 yOU are: But I don't think that when it i9 on the record that We bave this fle, that may contatn material that wa8 not In our fles, and we are given the opportunity to examine it, without disclosing these confidential matterg that we ought not to have somebody go through It- Mr: DULLEB. I agree wlth that but I think we could gave time If we checked of frst what we bave already and that would cut out about half of that fle probably_ Mr: MCCLOY. I think In a rapld glance through It, I think Just about balf: of It The CHAIBMAN. Well, 8uppose you do that then thoge and let'8 gee: AJ right, proceed, Mr_ Stern Mr: STEBN_ I tbink perhaps we ought to leave the entlre matter of the @le then until we can glve you the information: Tbe CHAIBMAN. That ig right Mr_ STEBN. we edmit for the purposes Of the record this list at thls tlme, Mr; Chief Justice, which has been marked No. 834? The C=ADMAN. Yes: There are no security matterg In thig? Mr: BELMONT: 8ir The CHAIRMAN. It may be admltted 98 Exhibit No: 834. (The document referred to, previously marked Commission Exhibit No: 834 for Identifcation, wag received in evidence:) Mr: STERN. Mr: Belmont, &an you identify this letter dated February 6 with an attached afdavit whlch bas been marked for identification 48 Commisston Exhibit No. 835? (The document referred to was marked Commlssion Exhibit No. 835, for dentification:) Mr: BELMONT; Yes; this is & letter dated February 6, 1984, to the Commtssion from: the FBI to whlch Ig attached an afdavit by Director J. Edgar Hoover: Mr: STERN. What is the subject? Mr: BELMONT Stating fatly that Lee Harvey Oswald was never an informant of the FBI: Mc: DULLEB. Would you dedne informant Obviously in the gense he knew some information as previously indicated from the previous interview I mean for the record, would you Just define what yOU mean by an informant in thi8 8enge ? Mc_ BELMONT: An Informant in this gense is an individual who hag agreed to cooperate with the FBI and to furnish Infbormation to the FBI either for Or With- out payment Mr: STERN . Thank you: Mr. BELMONT: This would not, of course, iuclude the cooperative citizen to wbom we g0, and wbo frequently 9d frankly discloses any information in his possession, but rather someone who Joins an organization or seeks out informa- tion at the direction and instance of the FBI relative to gubversive Or criminal 14 get May No, ================================================== Page 9 ================================================== 13-00000 matterg: In other words I want to make It clear we do not regard patrlotic citizeng a8 informants: Mr: STERN. I take it you also would not bave regarded Iee Oswald &8 an in- formant from the contacts with him that you have told u8 about and the Other agents have told u8 about? Mr: BELMONT: Indeed not; in no way could he be considered an informant; in Tietennn N no way Mr: STEBN . Did you supervise Or asslst in the preparation Of the information contalned here? Mr: BELMONT: Yes, er: Mr: STEBN. And you are famdliar with It? Mr: BELMONT: Yes ; L am. Mc: STEBN. And to your knowledge, does It accurately and completely gtate the Bureau'e practice in recruitlng & prospective informant? Mr: BELMONT: That ig correct Mr: STEBN: I8 there anythlng yoU would like to add to.the Information covered In there with respect to your practices regarding Informants? Mr; BELMONT: No; only In my peraonal knowledge this Is & correct statement and Lee Harvey Oswald was not an Informant of the FBI Mr: STERN. Did yOu ever use the term "agent" to apply to anyone other than an employee, & gpecial agent employee of the FBI? Mr: BELMONT No; We do not Mc: DOLLEB. Could I a8k you, Mr: Belmont; whether Mr: Fain'9 eeparation from the FBI had anything whatever to do with the Oswald cage or in: hl8 bandlng Of the Oswald case? Mr; BELMONT: No; indeed not Mr: Fain came to the retirement age and de- cided he wanted to retire, which i8 hig privilege, and he retired and i8 presently worklng in Teras and very happy, I understand: Mr: DULLEB. `Thank yOu Mr; BELMONT: He retlred In good graces, good gtanding, s0 far a8 the FBI Is concerned: The CHAIMAN. And a year before the assasslnatlon Mr; BELMONT; Frankly, I dontt recall The CEAIBMAN. Yes; it was August 1982, he testifed: Mr: STERN. You have already covered thls, Mr:' Belmont, but Just 8 that the record 18 completely clear o thlg polnt, was Lee Oswald ever aM agent of the FBI? Mr: 'BELMONT; Lee Oswald was never an agent of the EBI: Mr. STEBN. The letter of February 6, 1984, from Mr: Hoover, alludes to testl- mony furnlshed the Commlssion by District Attorney Wade: Have ` you subde- quently been advised that Mr: Wade had not testifed before the Commigsion? Mr: BELMONT: Yes; we received a letter from the Oommission advslng 18 tlat the Incident referred to was an informal discussion rather than actual testd- mony before the Commission Mr: STEBN. And also to complete the record, have you been advised that Mr: Wade wa8 not guggestdng that he bellered the rumor about Ogwald a8 an In- formant, but felt obllged to call It to the attentlon of the Commission ? Mr: BELMONT: The Commission'$ letter 80 adviged u8. Mr: STEBN. Mr: Chairman, may thl8 be admltted with No. 835? The CHATBMAN. It may be admitted under that number: (The document referred to, previously marked Commission Exhibit No: 835 for identiication, wag received in' evidence:) Mc: STEBN _ Mr: Belmont, I ghow. you a letter' dated February 12, 1964, a number of afdavits by special agents, attached to it: It wag identifed yester- day, parts of It were identifed yesterday and It therefore carries the number for Identifcation 825. Can you Identify thig letter for 48 ? Mc: BELMONT: In order to be sure ~I your pardon: This is a letter dated February 12, 1984, to.the Commisgion from the FBI, to which is attached affidavits of FBI personnel who had reagon tO contact Lee Harvey Oswald and who were in supervlsory capacity over the agents who contacted Oswald: Mr: STERN . Did you supervise the preparation of this material? Mr: BELMONT: These afdavits were prepared, Of course, by the men themselves 15 beg ================================================== Page 10 ================================================== 13-00000 I bave read the afdavits, and they were compiled aS an enclosure and sent over with this letter: Mr: STERN . You have reviewed them in preparation for your testimony before the Commigsion ? Mr. RELMONT: Yes, gir: Mr: STERN. To your knowledge, are they accurate? Mr. BELMONT: They are accurate, to my knowledge, yes. Mr. STERN . Are they complete? Mc: BELMONT: Yes: Mr. STERN. They do not omit any sgnlfcant fect you know Of? Mr; BELMONT No_ Mr: STEBN . In connection with the material they cover? Mr. BELMONT. No. Mr: STERN . Unless there are any questlons o that, Mr: Chairman, I guggegt we admit this document The CEAIRMAN. It may be admitted a8 No. 825. (The document referred to, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 825 for identification, was received in evidence:) Mr: STERN . Mr: Belmont, I show you a letter dated March 31, 1984, from Director Hoover to Mr: Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission, wltb 9 series of attachments: Can you identify thls whlch bas been marked. for identifcation &s No- 836 Can you identify this for the Commlssion ? (Tbe document referred to was marked Commlsglon Exhibit No. 836 for Identifcation:) Mc. BELMONT: This is & letter dated March 81, 1984, to the Commission from the FBI to which is attached the instructions contained In our manuals 49 to the type of information which ghould be disseminated to Secret Servlce and our relations or liaison with Secret Servlce: Mr: STERN. It was prepared in response to & request from the Commiseion ? Mr: BELMONT: That i8 correct: Mr. STERBN. Did you eupervise or assist in the preparatlon? Mr: BELMONT I did: Mr: STERN. Have you reviewed it recently? Mr; BELMONT; Yeg: Mr: STERN. I8 it complete with respect to the matters covered? Mr: BELMONT: Yes It t8. Mr: STERN. Is there anything you would llke to add to It wlth respect to the matters covered ? Mr. BELMONT. Well Mr: DOLLEB. May I just interrupt here &. moment: Is thls Inquiry directed to tbe question of whether it is now adequate or whether this is complete a9 of the time of the assassination ? Ithink we have two questions there to congider: Mr; BELMONT Mr; Dulles, this letter outlines our relations wlth Secret Serv- Ice and the material that is attached covers both the Instructions to our agents prior to the assassination and the current instructiong. Mr: DOLLE8 Subsequent to the agsassination ? Mr: BELMONT: . Yeg, 8ir: Mr. DULLE8. Yes , Mr. STEBN. What were the criteria employed and Instructed your agents to employ before the assassination in determining what informatlon should be reported to the Secret Service regarding threats against the President, members of hbis family, the President-elect, and the Vice President? Mr: BELMONT. These are contained in detail in the attachments which' repre- gent sections of our manual , of Instructions which are available to ell of our personnel in the feld a8 well &s, the &eat of Government, and al8o In the FBI handbook which is in possession of the Individual agent in tbe field ( These instructions require that any information indicating the possibility 0f an at- tempt against the person or safety of the persons mentioned by must be referred immediately by the most expeditious means of communfcatlons to the nearest ofice of the Secret Service: Further; that our headquarters in Wash- ington must be advised by teletype of the informatlon and the fact tbat It bag been furnished to Secret Service: 16 you you ================================================== Page 11 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr. STERN. Specifically, the kind of information you were interested tbat is before the assassination ? Mr. BELMONT: Yes: Specifcally tbe kind? Mr. STEBN . Yes: Mr: BELMONT. Any information indicating the possibility of { threat against the President and Vice President and members 0f the family.` Mr: STERN . Have you broadened Mr: BELMONT. I may say, sir_ Mr. STERN. Yes: Mr: BELMONT: That this practice was assiduously followed, and you will @nd that the fles of the Secret Service are loaded with information over the years that we have furnished them_ That was a practice religiously followed and a practice voluntarily followed without request In other words, we do not have a written request for this type of information but rather considered it our re- sponsibility and duty to furnish this Information: Mr: STEBN. Did you ever participate in O do you know Of any discussion with the Secret Service before. the assagsination regarding the kind of Information they were interested In ?: Mr. BELMONT: We had close lielson with Secret Service; and I bave no doubt that In oral discussions tbat the question came up. I wasn't present but I Nvould. assume it has come up, ` particularly a8 we were constantly furnishing information: We have no written criteria, you might gy, 48 to what should #FTtrs UStT} be furnished: Mr. STERN. That 18, established by the Secret Servlce: Mr: BELMONT That I8 correct; Mr: STERN. And you yourself never participated in any discusslon 0f Mr. BELMONT: No; I did not Mr. STEBN. ihis ]iaison function: Mr: BBLMONT: This i8 something we have done for years o the basis that we congider It our respongibility not , only 88 far &8 the President goes: As you kow, Mr: Chairman, we bave also followed the game policy relative to other 17 Xta high oficials when it appeara desirable: Mr: STERN: Have you gubsequent to the assassination augmented your fn- structiong to special agents In this respect? Mr: BELMONT; Yeg: On December 26, 1963, we prepared additional instruc- tions reiterating those already in effect, and adding ther dissemination to Secret Service concerning the gecurity of the Pregident The OEAIRMAN. Where do those new oes appear in the exhibit, Mr. Belmont? Mr; BELMONT They appear a8 an attachment~working from the back, I think, Mr. Chairman, I can help you most: The OEAIBMAN. Yes: Mr_ BELMONT: Eight pages from the back it starts, .it reads, "Manual 0f In- etructiong Section 83. The OHAIBMAN: Yes I have It. Mr: BELMONT; The first page Is the game information that we previously fur- nished to Secret Service involving threats The CHAIRMAN. The frst page i8 intact, 48 it wag before Mr; BELMONT; There may be gme slight changes in wording but essentially It Is the game dealing with pogsible threats. The CHAIBMAN. Yeg: Mr: DOLLEB. Mr: Belmont; I wonder if it would be possible for the Commis- sion'8 convenlence to date each oe of thege papers a8 of a certain date: It is qulte dificult going through it now Wthout referring to the letter in each case to determine whether the ingtructiong are as Of the date of the agsassination Or a8 of the present date? Mr; BELMONT: We can do that without any dificulty. I would be glad to do it with the staf, Or can I help you here? Mr: DULLEB. Well, I think we can do tbat later but I think it would be useful when this goe8 into the record for our later reference in studying -this to have those dateg available to u8 On each one of the attachments. Mr. BELMONT Very good. 17 in, ================================================== Page 12 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr: DOLLEB. Thank you: Mr: BELMONT. Coming back to this Item you inquired about, 8ir, the other dissemination to Secret Service concerning the security 0f the Pregident i8 get forth on pages 2 and 3 of thig inclusion in our manual, and it extends the dig- semination to "subversives, ultrarightists, racists, and fascists, (a) possessing emotional instability or irrational beba vior; (b) who bave made threats of bodily harm against officials Or employees of Federal, State or local government O officials of a foreign government, (c) who express Or have expressed strong or violent anti-U.S. gentiments and who have been involved in bombing or bomb- making or whose pagt conduct indicates tendencies toward violence, and (d) whose prior acts or statements depict propensity for violence and batred against organized government:" 1} That wag prepared in an effort to provide additional, and a voluntary effort, without request, to provide additional information that might be helpful to avoid such. an incident 98 happened November 22, 1963. Mr: STERN This did not come about, this change did not come about, through any request from the Secret Service or discussion with the Secret 'Service ? Mr. BELMONT No. We made these changes, 88 I g8y, in an efort to provide any additional information in the light of what bappened tbat might be of asgistance to Secret Service and might assist In protecting the President. Mr: DULLEB I wonder, Mr_ Belmont; whether you would consider possibly changing In section (d) the word "and" to "or" whose prior acts O gtatements depict propensity for violence" and tben It nbw reads "and hatred againgt organized government". There have been cages, I believe, where the propenbity for violence had not been previously noted but the hatred of organized government bag. Mr: BELMONT; We will be happy to change that. Mr: DLLEB. I Just suggest for your consideration, I don't wigh to rewrite It; Mr. BELMONT: We would be happy to change It, Mr: Dulles Mr. STEBN. Following Mc: Dulles' thought, In the line above that; Mr Belmont, ghould that "and" before (d) , be "and" Or "or"? Do you mean these Mr. BELMONT: We do not mean that all of these items mugt be coupled together An ff tbat Is your thought. Mr: STEBN. That 18 rlght; Mr: BELMONT: We will be happy to change the "and" before (d) to an "or" Mr: STEBN. This means any Of the broad clessidcationg of people, subvereive8, ultrarightists, raclsts Or fascists who meet any Of these four tests. Mr; BELMONT: That i8 correct Mr: STERN. Can give the Commission gome notion of the increase in volume which the broadening Of your criteria has brought about? By volume, I mean the volume of your references to the Secret Servlce: Mc: BELMONT I do not have an exact fgure, however, I do know that more than 5,000 additional names bave gone over to Secret Service under these criteria: The CHATRMAN. In what period Of time? Mr: BELMONT: Since we put them out; Tbe CHAIBMAN. I Bee: Mr: BELMONT Whlcb wag December 28. The CHAIRMAN . Yes: Mr. McCLoY: Have you included defectore In thig Let? Mr. BELMONT: sir we d0 include defectors. Mr_ STEBN . You mean a8 of December 28, 1983? Mc: BELMONT. Correct: Mr. STERN Has the expansion of your criteria led to any problem or difculty for you or for individuals o d0 you antlcipate any problem or dificulty under the expanded criteria? Mr. BELMONT: It seems to me that there is a necessity to balance gecurity against freedom of the individual: Ths ig a country of lawg and a government of law, and not & government of men. Inevitably the increase in security means an increase in the control of the individual and a diminishment, therefore, Of hlg individual liberties: It is a simple matter to increase security. But every time you increase security you diminish the area of the rights Of the individual: In some countries the problem of a visiting dgnitary i8 met without much dlficulty. 18 you Yes, ================================================== Page 13 ================================================== 13-00000 Persons who are suspect Or may be considered dangerous are immediately rounded up and detained while the individual ig in the country. The authorities have no problem because in those countries there is not & free society such a8 we enjoy, and the people who are detained have no redress: The FBI approaches this whole field 0f security__I am not boring you with this, am I ? The CHAIRMAN. indeed This ig tremendously important: Mr. BELMONT: . The FBI approaches this whole feld of security and its tre- mendous responsibilities to protect the internal security of the country as 9 sacred trust. In carrying out our investigations and Our work in the security feld, we do it in guch a manner under the law that We strengthen rather than weaken the free gociety that we enjoy. It i8 for that reason that our men are trained carefully, thoroughly, and supervised carefully, to insure tbat their approach to the entire security feld, wbich inevitably toucheg on control of thought, is handled with extreme care: Our activities are directed to meet the terrific responsibility we have for the internal security of the country, but to meet it under the law_ We feel that to place security as above the rights of the individual or to increase these controls beyond what is absolutely essential is the drst step toward the destruction of 'this frele- society that we enjoy_ We have been asked many times why we don't pick up and jail all Commu- nists. The very people wbo ask those questions don't realize that if action, unrestrained action, i8 taken against & particuler group of people; a precedent is set which can be seized on in the future by power-hungry Or unscrupulous authorities 48 & precedent, and which inevitably will gnaw away at this free society we bave, and sooner or later will be applied to the very individuals who are seeking this action. Up until the time of the assassination we religiously and carefully and expeditiously furnished .to Secret Service immediately On 98 local basis a8 well a8 on 9 national basis, headquarters basig, any and all infor- mation tbat in any way was indicated to be a possible threat against ' the President: This permitted Secret Service to take such action a8 was required against these individuals who had by their action set the stage fOr appropriate restraint or observation based on something they did. Therefore, they were not in a position to complain.legitimately because they had by some word Or deed # set In motion 8 threat against the President of the Unlted States Since the assasslnation, a8 I have testifed; we have: broadened the area of dissemination in an efort to be helpful: It stands without questlon that we could have gald, 9} 'No; we' won't g0 any further: But we felt that it was our responsibility to do whatever we could do and, hence, we bave broadened these criteria, and we have distributed thousands of pieces of information on individuals to Secret Service: (At this point ` in the proceedings, Representative Ford enters the bearing room.) We are not, entirely comfortable about this, because under these broadened criteria after all we are furnishing names Of people who have not made a threat against the President, people who have expressed beliefs, who have belonged or do belong to organizations which believe in violent revolution Or taking things into their own bands: Unless such information is handled with judgment and care, it can be dangeroug For example, we that in one city when the President recently vislted, the police went to these people and told them, You stay in the house while the President Is here Or if you g0 out, we will go with you:' 1} We know that thege people bave threatened to consult attorneys, have threatened to make a publlc issue of the matter on the theory thatthig is restraint that is not Justifed a8 tbey have made no threats against the Pregident; Now, when you examine this a bit further; we give these names to Secret Service: Secret Service must do something with those names, and Secret Service solicits the assistance 0f the police, quite properly . But I don't need; I think; to paint this picture any further_ that when you get away from & specifc act or deed of threats against the Pregi- dent; and you go into tbe broader area of what, perhaps, 4 man is thinking and, therefore; he may be a threat, and you take action against the man on the bagls of that, there is & danger. That is why, despite the fact that We have given this additional information and will continue to do SO, we are uneasy. Again, if 1 may be permitted to continue, this is inherent in the entire approach Of the FBI to the security feld: 19 No, such know ================================================== Page 14 ================================================== 13-00000 We g0 a8 far in our investigationg a8 i8 necessary. But we g0 no further. We do not barass people. We do not conduct an investigation of & man for what be may be thinking: We attempt to the Very best of our ability to carry out this regponsibility for internal security without adopting tactics of harassment Or unwarranted investigation, and we will not pursue a security matter beyond that which is essential to carry out our responsibilities Now, I say that becauge tbat is the broad feld of our policy, and I gay it with complete sincerity, becauge I koow. I bave been in thig work with the FBI both in the actual investigative ield and in the policymaking and supervisory feld for 27 years, and I know the policies and the procedures tbat are followed, and the care with whlch thig problem I8 approached, and I agree with it fully. Mr: MOCLoy: You are going to impose & pretty heavy burden on the Secret Service when you dump them with the 5,000 more names than they bave been used to having: Mr. BELMONT It will be more than 5,000, glr_ This wIll continue Mr: McCLor: From your knowledge Of the situation, do you feel that .the Secret Service is equipped to cope with this added burden? Is it something that you feel Mr. BELMONT: The Secret Service, &8 1t hag in the past, i8 required to call on the police for assistance in this fleld when the Presgldent visits & city: I do not know the exact complement of personnel of Secret Service, but they are 9 relatively small organization: Mr: MCCLor: It may be they will bave to reorganize gome of their procedures to cope wlth this, won't they? Mr: BELMONT: I d0 not kmow. Mr: McCLor: You have a pretty broad clasgtication here: "All Investiga- tive personnel shoald be alert for the identlfcation of subversives, ultrarightists D} racists, and Fascists (@) possessing emotional instability Or irrational beba vior: That may Include a good many people in the Unlted States and maybe some mem- bers of this Commission~I am speaking for myself: There is irrational be- bavlor that I have been guilty of many times [Laughter:] This doesn't mean you are going to gend everybody over there; but the names that_all those under your clagsification all Of those in your opinlon come under that classification unless you feel they have some, there is gome, reason behlnd It In other words, you are gelective in this list: You purport to be gelective in the number8 that you are going to convey to, the names you are going to convey to, the Secret Service: Mr. BELMONT: We endeavor to use good Judgment, sir: Now, as you indicate there are wbat,, 190 milllon people in this country, and who knowg when gomeone may adopt abnormal behavior: You cannot tell 'tomorrow who will pose &a riek; Thlg I8 an efort to be 88 helpful a8 possible and; a9 we have in the pagt, we ` will use our best judgment But this will broaden considerably the type of people and the number Of people who g0 to the Secret Service: Mr: MCOLox: That is what I am getting at really, Mr: Belmont You are not saying thet all thoge people that you characterize here under this paragraph 2 will ipso facto be sent over to the Secret Service every time the President makeg a move: This gimply says that all investigative personnel should be alert in that situation am I right in that? Mr: BELMONT: No, sir: If you will follow in the next paragraph; We gay, "If cases are developed falling within the above categories, promptly furnish Secret 1} Service locally & letterhead memorandum with the information: Mr: MCCLOr. So without any further ado all the people in your list who are in that category will be transferred over to the Secret Service when there is an occasion, when the President travels? Mc BELMONT: No. This is 9 continuing procedure: In other words, during our investigations we,come across someone who is in this area or category, and this is 9 requirement that that man'8 name g0 to Secret Service with a brief description of him, and Secret Service then has that fled and is in & position to know that that individual hag been referred to them: Mr: MCCLoy: Well, that brings up again the comment that I originally made: 20 got ================================================== Page 15 ================================================== 13-00000 This does put a big burden of investigation and judgment o the Secret Servlce, one which they have not heretofore presumably had placed on their shoulders. Mr. BELMONT: I think you are correct: Mr: McCLoy. The reason I am asking thege questions is because by implica- tion, at least, oe of our directives is to look into this situation for the future protection of the President, and ' we want to see that we bave got gomething that is practical as well a8 cautious: Mr: DULLEB. Do the memoranda attached, Mr: Belmont, to this exhibit indicate wbat classes were so Identifed for investigation under the procedures eristing at thbe time of the agsassination and what change has been made, how it hag been extended ? Mr: BELMONT. Yes, gir: If Mr DOLLE8. By the definitions under paragraph 2 of the Manual of Instruc- tions. Mr._ BELMONT: The previous page and the paragraph right above No. 2 sets forth the same information that we acted on prior to the asgassination: Mr: DOLLEG. That i8 paragraph 1? Mr: BELMONT. gir: Mr: DOLLEG. The Manual of Instructions, section 83. Mr: BELMONT: Yes, glr: Mr. DOLLEB. What are the various categorles given now at the top Of page 2 of this exhlbit which have been added ? Mr: BELMONT: At the top of page 2, sir, that is the information that should be included in the notification to headquarters a8 to who the Individual is and the background information that was furnished to Secret Service s0 that we, too, can dissemlnate to Secret Service here: Representative FOBD_ Under the new criteria would Oswald'8 name heve gone: to the Secret Service automatically? Mr: BELMONT: Well, Congressman, right now we are Including all defectors automatically. Now, the question whether Oswald meets these criteria here a8 get forth is & question of judgment; As I say, right now we do furnish all. defectors: Representative'FORD: Defectors are for the time being at least 9 special cate- gory other than wbat is set forth here unless for gome other reason they would fall into one of these categories: Mr: BELMONT; Yes: Mr: McCLor. Do you under that category gend forward all Communists? Mr. BELMONT: Yes: Mr. MCCIox: AIl Communists, yes. Mr: DOLLES. Mr: Chairman, I wonder whether Or not it would be wise for the record at this point to read into the record, In view of the importance of this, this paragraph which we are now discussing and which, a8 I understand it, contains the new defnition 0f investigative cases ? The CHATBMAN_ Yes we can it into the record: Mr: DuLLE8. Mr: Belmont; 9s I understand it, the new criteria are get forth in paragraph 2 On page 2 of the Manual of Instructions, gectlon 83 is that correct ? Mr: BELMONT: That Is correct: Mr: MCCLor. Which, &8 I counted, is the I2th page of the Commisgion's Exhibit No. 836 ; is that right, Mr: Stern ? Mr: STERN. That is right number 0f the exhlbit; Mr: McCLor: 836, and I think it is the L2th page: Mr:. DULLE8. For convenient reference I suggest that when this be included that we add the dates and the page numbers: Mr: STERN . I think the witness can do this immediately. The CHAIRMAN. We will give & cOpy of it to the reporter and he may COpy it and incorporate it later In the record (Paragraph 2 reads as follows :) "Other dissemination to Secret Service concerning security of the President. All inrestigatlve personnel should be alert for the identification of subversives, ultrarightists, racists, and Fascists (a) possessing emotional instability or irrational beha - (b) who have made threats of bodily barm against officials 21 you Yes; put vior, ================================================== Page 16 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr: BELMONT: That is correct, Sir: The CHAIRMAN. They find themselves in a mousetrap then. Mr. BELMONT: That is correct, sir ; that is right: Mr_ McCLox: In other words, you would expect your agents to exert some selection before they would send these names over to tbe Secret Service: Mr. BELMONT; Our agents use Judgment in the pursuance of this work, and tbey would continue to use judgment in the selection of people who meet this criterion: Otherwige if you carried this to tbe extreme You would out of band completely. So that 'there is Judgment applied here and our agents are capable of applying the judgment: Representative FoRD. What bas been the reaction of the Secret Service to this greater fow 0f information 'that they have received ? Mc_ BELMONT: They have taken it There bas been no official reaction, to my knowledge: Representative FOBD. Have they objected to the greater burden ? Mr: BELMONT_ Sir ; I would like to say, I don't know whether you are going to cover tbig, Mr: Stern, that our relations with the Secret Service are excellent: We work closely together: Ag 9 matter of fact, gince the assagsination, a5 the request of Mr; Rowley, we have furnished agents to assist on occasion in the protection 0f the Presi- dent, which i8 primarily 8 function of Secret Service, but 88 a cooperative gesture we have on & number Of occaslons made agents available at the request of Mr: Rowley: I think the fgure rung +to something like 139 agents-yes, .139 agents that ie have made available: We do have 8 very close liaison with Secret Service both at the seat 'of Government and in our feld Ofices: We bave a supervisor here at the geat of Government whose duty it iS to stay directly in touch with Secret Service, to cut redtape and produce results both for Secret Service and for the FBI ; to see that the problems are' handled immediately. He has direct access to Mr_ Rowley, and we bave on 4 number 0f occasiong at the request of Secret Service, 8ent one of our agents with the Secret Service when the President travels abroad, particularly where we heve a representative in the countries being vislted, because our relations with the law enforcement ofiicials in those countrieg bave been bullt up over the years, and we are thus in a position to assist Secret Service in establishing the necessary security measures and the fOw. Of Informatlon to gerve thelr purpose: In addition, when the Presldent travels ' abroad we alert all of our oflces to advlse uS Of any information which may pertaln to the travel of the President, and we set up a gupervisor back here to receive that information and cable it Or get it immediately to our man who Is accompanying the President when he makes this trip: ` This is done, thls agent going with Secret Service is done, at the invitation and request of Secret Service: Representative FoRD: 169 agents of the FBI who beve assisted gince the assassination: Did Secret Service make a specific request for tbeir help In these Ingtances ? Mr: BELMONT: Yes ; Mr. Rowley advised that he needed help, it wag Offered to him by Mr; Hoover, and when the President is going to visit a city_ and Secret 'Service does not have suficient personnel in that particular city to cover wbat they consider is necessary, they need specialized help from uUS, they will make the request to uS and we will authorize our Iocal agent in charge to make those men, the designated number, available to the Sedret Service representative, who then uses their services while the President is there. Representative FoRD I gather that prior to the assassination such requests, specific requests, had not' come from Secret Service to the Bureau: Mr: BELMONT: No. There were never any such requests before: Mr: STERN _ At the level at which the reguests have been made 80 far; have they proved to be a difficult burden for the FBI? Mr: BELMONT: Mr: Stern, any time that we have a pending caseload of some tbing like 115,000 investigative matters, which is what we bave, and Our agents are assigned about 20 to 25 cases apiece across the country, ranging from matters of immediate urgency to matters which can be handled in due time, and wbenever 2A get No, ================================================== Page 17 ================================================== 13-00000 our agents are puttlng In an average Of over 2 hourg overtine & voluntarily , the loan of 139 men will be felt Repregentative FORD: 189_ Mr: BELMONT: I believe It was.139, gir: I think the letter says 139. Mr. STERN . 189 on 16 separate occasiong: Mr: BELMONT. Yes I do not wish to overplay this: We are not complainlng: We do feel that at such time as Secret Service is able to increase .its per- sonnel or meet this problem within, the organization that it is properly thefr problem. But: meanwhile we are following this procedure and we are not complaining: Mr: DOLLEB. I bad hoped, Mc: Chairman, that at some time while Mr: Belmont was here; we could agk him to Just briefly define for US, going back to the assagsi- nation day, & clear defnition of the regpective functlons of the FBI and the Secret Service prior to and immediately after the assassination: There seemed to bave been at one time a little confugion there: Naturally in & situation 0f this kind It always happens, but I am not absolutely clear in my mind as to Mr: BELMONT: At the time of the ascassination ? Mr: DOLLEB. Yeg. Jugt before; I mean what your responsibilities were Just before the assagsination, and Just after &8 contrasted with tbe functlons of the Secret Service: Mr: BELMONT: The Secret Service' has the: responsibility for protecting the President and his family, and the Vice Pregident and 80 On. That 18 a basic respongibllity. Nor-Drtr: Mr: DOLIEB. And you have no auxdliary functlon to that Mr: BELMONT: No, gir: Mr: DOLLEB. Except to furnish names and guspects, 48 you have indicated: Mr. BELMONT: That is correct We have no functlon there: Tbat Is & primary responsibility and function of Secret Service: Now, we d0 have what we have ' consldered our responslbility, to furnish to Secret Service any Indication of a threat to the President, and that we have done religdougly. After the agsassination the Presldent ordered us into an investigation 0f the assassinatlon which changed the picture aS far a8 this particular case wa8 concerned Mr: DOLLEB. You mean Pregldent Johngon, Immediately after the assaggina - ton ? Mr: BELMONT: Yeg, gir: Mr. DOLLEB. And there was a period there, there was a period though, after the assassination and before President Johngon took the oath of office did this order come to you during that period 0 after he had taken the oath of office? M: BELMONT It was very rapid, probably within a day. Mr: DOLLEB: I gee: It wagn't immedlately after: Mr: BELMONT: No. Mc: DULLEB. 't wasn't this period I am speaking Of Mr: BELMONT; You gee, Mr: Dulles, the Federal Government still hbag no juris: diction over the assassination of the Presldent: That wa8 a murder and wae within the province of the local police who immediately took hold of it and started the investigation: Mr: DOLLEB. I realize that Mr: BELMONT: And started the investigation and It wag theirg Mr: DOLLEB. You were only in there by courtesy. What you did was by courtesy of the local authorities: Mr: BELMONT: Yes, sir we went to the Dallas Police Department and immedi- ately went into action because of what had happened, and there wag no time for u8 to stand on priorities. But we felt we ghould be of the utmost assistance and we sent men to the police department to aggist in the interview and do anything else we could: This wagn't 8 time, of courge, to sit back and 8ay , "This isn't our Job." 1} Mr: DULLEB. I undergtand Mr: BELMONT: Yes: The CEAMRMAN. Mr: Belmont, jugt one question. Do you know of any legisla- 25 day ================================================== Page 18 ================================================== 13-00000 tion In recent years that might have been. introduced in the Congress to make an attack upon the President a Federal offenge? Mr. BELMONT. I do know that there is legislation presently pendlng: The CHAIRMAN. Since the assassination ? Mr. BELMONT: Since the assagsination. The CHAIRMAN. Yeg: But had it been considered in recent years? I know It bad at the time of other assassinationg, but g far 98 you know were there any recent legislation to that eftect? Mr: BELMONT Mr: Chairman, I must plead ignorance: I heven't done research on it, and I just don't know. The CHAIBMAN- Yes: Well, we can fnd that out very eaglly. Repregentative FORD. Mr: Chairman, just the other day in the House Of Repre sentatlves & bill was approved giving Federal Oficlals the right to take certain action when 2 chief of state from a foreign country wag within the United States ; a broadening of their authority when they bad a suspicion o they bad s0me reagon to believe that au attack wa8 being made on a foreign dignitary. At the time it went through the House I thought of the game question just ralsed, and I Wondered whether there were any specifc legislative matterg pending before any committee on this particular point: Mr: BELMONT: I am sure there is a pending bill because my recollection Ig that it was called to our attention--I cannot pinpoint It for you_but I think there Is pending legislation now in this matter: 006675& Mr: MCOLOY. I noticed in some Law Review article recently reference to the fact that previous bills had been Introduced but bad gone into the wastebasket The CEAIRMAN. That ig true: Mr: McClox: In respect of other incldents. The CEAIBMAN. When the emotion died down: Mr: McCLor When the emotion died down, that is true I have gome further questions The CEAIBMAN. Have you fnlshed, Mr: Stern ? Mr: STEBN. I want to get one thing established that came up yegterday. Mc: Belmont, yesterday the Commission was' Interested in determinlng, If poggible, when Agent Hosty recorded the Interviews ' that he' had taken on October 28 November 1, and November 6.' He wagn't certain, except that he thought It had been done after the aggasslnatlon: Have you cauged a check to be made O thaf? Mr: BELMONT: Yes we checked wlth our Dallag office, and they do not have a speciic record 0f when that information wag recorded: Mr: STERN. Wag it recorded In gubstantlally the game form In gome con- temporaneous commundcation ? Mr: BELMONT: Yes; within a Or I thlnk on November 4, If I recell correctly, the fact that Hosty bad . talked to the neighbor Of Mrg. Paine and had located Marina Oswald, wag sent in by AIRTEL: Mr: STEBN. You might refer to Commission Exhibit 834, page 9, Items 64 and 67, just &0 the record is straight Mr. BELMONT. Item 64 is an AIRTHL frow the Dallag ofce to the head- quarters dateo October 30, wherein Hosty reported this interview that be had bad with the neighbor Of Mrg Paine: On November 4 the Dallas office reported by: AIREL the results of his con- tact with Mrs: Paine on November.1, 80 that the regults Of his interviewg were incorporated at that time, October 30, November 4, but the actual insert for the report was not prepared until some time later: To the best of Hosty'8 recollec- tion it was after the 22d and prior to December 2, but be was already on record by these AIRTELS: Mr: STEBN. Thank you, Mr: Belmont: I have no further questiong The CEATRMAN. Mr: McCloy. Mr: MCCLOY: 1 have one Or two questiong: Mr: Belmont, you do know the charge has been made by gome that Oswald wag what is called 8 secret agent Do you bave any information whatever that would cause you to believe that Oswald was or could have been an agent or an informant of the FBI? 26 you day two, ================================================== Page 19 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr. BELMONT; I have covered that in gome considerable detail, Mr., McCloy, and I will make a positive statement that Oswald was not, never wag, an agent or an informant of the FBI: Mr: McCLor. In the course of your investigation do you bave any reagon to make you believe that he wag an agent of any other country ? Xnt 4#3t Mr. BELMONT: gir ; we have no reason to believe that he was an agent of any other country. Mr: McCLOY. Or any other agency of the United Stateg? Mr: BELMONT: Or any other agency of the United Stateg: Mr: McCrox: You said this morning, I believe, O at least I guess Mr: Hosty said, that the assasgination of the President and any leads in connection wlth it are still of constant concern to the FBI Do you feel there 'are any area8 as of the present time that you feel at the present time require 0r justify further investigation other than routine check- ups that bave not already been undertaken ? Mr: BELMONT sir; frankly, I dont. I will gy that from the requests we bave received from the Commisslon, you bave explored 'thig most thoroughly. We do not have any unexplored areag In this investigation tbat gbould be explored There are some pending requests that you have made; and we are running them out &s rapidly a8 we can: Mr:_MCCLOY Maybe thig isn't a fair question to ask you, but, after all, you sviilizn have bad 9 long record of criminal investigation, and You bave bad a' long exposure to investigation in this case. As a result Of your investigation do you feel that there i8 any credible evidence thug far which would gupport a conclusion Or an opinion that the death of the President was the result of & conspiracy Or anything other than the act of & gingle individual? Mr. BELMONT: gir we have no evidence, and I could gupport no conclu- gion that thie was other than an act Of Ogwald Mr; MCCLor: Now, the invegtigation does lead you to the conclugion that he was ' the President8 agsags.n ? Mr: BELMONT: Yes, gr: Mr: McCLor. Did you ever at any time bave any connectlon whatever -YOU or the agency-_have anything to d0 with the Walker;, General Walker; cage? Mr. BELMONT 8lr; that wa8 a matter handled by the Dallag police: I am drawing o my recollection Of It now, but, a8 [ recall It, after-the Incident, we ofered to examine the bullets that were recovered Mr: McCLox. Bullets: Mr: BELMONT: And the police apparently wanted to retaln them, 80 that we did not conduct the examination of the bullets until gubsequent' to the agsagsina- tion Itself: Mr: McCLor. Until recently. Mr: BELMONT No; we had no connectlon with It, with that Investigatlon. Mr. McCrox In your investigation of the President'g- agsassination, dd you have odcaslon, after the event, to make an investigatlon of Rubys background Or Ruby'8 relationship to Oswald? Mr: BELMONT. Yeg, glr we went Into that very thoroughly. Mr: McCror Have we got all your reports o that? Mr; BELMONT: Yes, gr; Mr; McCLox. Have you come to any conclugions or opiniong in regard to Ruby and his connection with Oswald, if any? Mr_ BELMONT The reports, of course, speak for themselves: But in gumma- tion, we did not come up with anything Of a golid nature, that is anything that would stand up to indicate that there was any asgociation between Ruby and Oswald: We had numerous allegations which we ran out extensively and care- fully, but there is nothing, no information, that would gtand up to ghow there wag an agsociation between them: Mr. MCCLox. Maybe thig is in the record, but do you-_by reagon of your very close association with this investigation, I venture to agk this question do you; from your knowledge of the investigation flnd--wag there any evidence In 27 No, No, No, No, ================================================== Page 20 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr: DULIEB. 'Do you have some more? Mr: MaCfoy. I think I have got all the questiong I wanted to ask (At this point in the proceedings, Representative Ford leaveg the hearing rOom:) Mr. DULLES. I bave two 0r three questions: As you know, Mr: Belmont, there have been & wide variety of rumors that bave been spread abroad very particularly with regard to the assassination: I have before me, Just received lagt night, a book Just being published in England, it is coming out in the next day O 2, called 'Who Killed Kennedy,' by Thomas G. Buchanan, `published in London by Secker and Warburg: I bave not.had an opportunity yet to read the book, I have read 9 good deal 0f the background material on which It is based: I would like to ask though when thlg book i8 available to you, and we will make & copy available to you and gee that You get one promptly, whether you would have the Bureau read thig; an appropriate person in the Bureau famlliar with the case or yourself, and possibly gIve u8 your viewg with regard to certain of the allegationg here within your particular competence Mr: BELMONT: 4s I udergtand it; Mr. Dulles this Ig. probably a compllation of the articles that he wrote In the French press Mr. DULLEB. Express ye8: Mr: BELMONT: Which I believe, we sent over to the Commlgsion a8 we recelved them Mc: DOLLEA That I8 correct Mr: BELMONT: And from my recollection 'of perusing those articles, they are flled 'with false statements, innuendoes Incorrect concluslong, miginformatlon, and certalnly what I would term falge Journallsm. In other words, he has stated a8 fact or: 98 4 correct conclusion many things whlch the Commiesion'8 investigation hag disproved completely. We wLll be glad to read the book and to furnlgh you wlth & generel comment on it. But to take down: each gtatement In there and g0 Into It would probably result in a critlque of 500 pages. Mr; DULLEB We do not want that. I don't thlnk we need that: Mr: BELMONT: Where actually many Of these allegattons have already been regolved by the Commleslon; I am gure: We will be glad to read It and gve a Mr: DULLES_ I think that would be useful for the Commlesion to heve, Mr: Ohairman: Do you agree? The CEAIBMAN_ Very well = ye8. If you fnd any factuel matters in there that contradict your findings, we would expect you to call It to our attentlon . Mr_ BELMONT: Most certalnly, gr: The CHAIBMAN. But otherwise I don't thlnk we want 8 rerlew of the book: That Is your Idea, i9 1t? Mr. DULLEB. Not & review of the book, but ff there ere allegations there; any evidence you can factually deny, that would be belpful to bave it. Mr: McCcor. Do you bave any record Of Buchanan ? Do you know anything: about Buchanan'8 background? Mr. BELMONT: gir; I d0 not recall: Mr: DOLLEB. I wish you would check: Mr: BELMONT: can send you & letter:: The CHATRMAN. We have the record: Mr: McCLoy. He seemg to be very much Ivy League, Lawrencewille School and Yale: Mr; DOLLEB He was at Qne time, I believe; he admitted to being & Communist at one time: He wag at oe 'time employed by the Washington Star, I am -ad- vised, and I belleve, according to the information I have, that he wag terminated by the Star some years ago. Mr: BELMONT: I thought he had been in touch with the Commission: The CHAIRMAN_ He came he did come in here; and made & statement which we bave recorded. His testlmony wasn't taken. He Just walked in 0f the street: Mr: DULLEB I have one or two more questions, Mr: Chairman. 30 you No, We in, ================================================== Page 21 ================================================== 13-00000 J EbGar 100 Ver MaY |4, 1964 will be the truth; the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, g0 help you God? Mr: HoovEB: I do. The CHAIBMAN. Mr. Rankin will carry on the examination, Mr_ Director Mr: RANKIN. Mr; Chief Justice, do you want to tell him briedly wbat our purpose is? The CHATRMAN. Ob, yes it is our practice to make a brief gtatement before the testimony of each witness, and [ will do it now. Mr. Hoover will be asked to testify in regard to whether Lee H Oswald wag ever an agent, directly Or indirectly, Or an informer or acting OL behakf of tbe Federal Bureau of Investigation jn any capacity at any time, and wbether he knows of any credible evidence of any congplracy, elther domestlc Or foreign, involved in the agsassination of President Kennedy. What he hag to say about an article in the National Pnquirer; Commigslon Exhibit No 837, and concerning the fallure to Include the. name and informa- tion concerning special agent Hosty In the Initial report of the Oswald address book and any suggestions and recommendationg be may have COncerning im- provemente or changes in 'provisiong for the protection Of the Pregident Of the United States: Now, Mr: Rankin; you may proceed: Mr: RANKIN. Mr: Hoover; will you gtute for tbe record your name and position? Mr: HoOvEB: J. Edgar Hoover, Director f: the Federal Bureau of Inveatl- gation of the Department of Justice: O87 Mr: RANKIN. Where d0 you live, Mr: Hoover? Mr. HOOvEB I live at 4936.g0th Place, Northwest, Waghington; D.C. Mr: RANKIN. And' have been Director of the Bureau for gome 40 years eccording to the newspapers? Mr; HOovEB That i8 correct ; glnce 1924. Mc: RANKIN. You .have furnished u8 a considerable amount of information, Mr_ Hoover; about whether Or not Lee Harvey Oswald wag ever an agent Or acting for the Bureau In any capacity &9 informer or otherwige at any time: Are those gtatements correct? Mr: HoOvEB They.are correct; I can most emphaticelly gy that at no time wag he ever an employee f the Bureau in any capacity, elther a8 an.agent O a8 2 gpecial employee, or as an informant Mr: RANKIN: I call your particular attention to Exhibit 835, and suggest that you wil find that thal I9 your letter; together -with your afdavit about this gubject matter; and other matters that you furished to us concernlng thig particular gubject. Mr: HoovER: That is-correct: Mr: RANKIN. Do you wigh to add anything? Mr: HOOvER: No; there 18 nothing that I desire-to add to wbat appeare in thls letter and my afidavit which accompanied It to the Commiggian. Mr: RANKIN. You have provided many things to u8 In assisting the.Commls- gion In connection with this investigation and I assume, at least [n 9 general way, you are ' famillar with the investigation of the agsassnation of President Kennedy, i8 that correct? Mr: HOOVER That Is correct When President Johnson returned to Washington he communicated with me within the first 24 hours, and agked the Bureau to pick up the investigation of the assassination because a8 you are aware, there 18 no Federal Jurisdiction for guch an investigation: It IS not & Federal crime to kill or attack the President Or the Vice President Or any Of the continuity 0f ofcers who would succeed to the Presidency. However; the President bag @ right to request the Bureau to make speclal investigationg, and In this instance be asked that thig investigation be made: I immediately asgigned a special force headed by the special agent in charge at Dallas; Ter,, to initiate the investigation, and to get all details and facts con- cerning it, which we obtained, and then prepared a report which we gubmitted to the Attorney General for transmission to the President Mr. RANKIN. From your study of thig entire matter of the assassination and work in connection with it, do you know of any credible evidence that hag ever come to your attention that there was a conspiracy either foreign or domestic involved in the assassination ? 98 you ================================================== Page 22 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr: HOOvER I know Of no substantial evidence 0f any type that would support any contention 0f that character. I bave read all of the requests that have come to the Bureau from this Commission, and I bave read and signed all the replies that have come to the Commission. In addition, I bave read many 0f the reports that our agents have made and I have been' unable to find any scintilla of evidence showing'any foreign con- opiracy or any domestic conspiracy that culminated in the assassination of President Kennedy. Representative FOBD: May I ask this, Mr: Hoover: Ag I understand your testimony, it i8 based on the evidence that has been accumulated thus far? Mr. HoOvEB That i8 correct; 8ir. Representative FORD. Is tbe Federal Bureau of Investlgation continulng Its investigation of all possible rawiicationg of thlg assagsination ? Mr: HoOvER That 18 correct We are recelving and we, I expect, will con - tinue to receive for deyg or weeks to come, letters from Indlviduals that normally would probably be In the category of what we would call crank letterg In whtch vardoug weird allegatlons are made Or in which 'people have reported psychic vibrationg: We are still running out letters Of tbat character and In turn making 8 report to thls Commission opon 1t, notwithstanding the fact that on the face of it the allegetion I8 without any foundation: Individuals who could not, have known any of the facts bave made; gme very strange statements: There have been publicatlong and' booke written, the contente -of whlch have been 00o absurd and without & ecintilla of foundation Of fact I feel, from my experience In the Bureau, where we are in congtant recelpt over the years of these 80-called crank lettere, that guch allegationg will be going on possibly for gome year8 to come: I, personally, feel that any.flnding of the Commlssion will not be accepted by everybody, because there are bound to be gome extremists who have very nounced vew8, without any foundatlon for them, who wIlL disagree violently with whatever fndings the Commleslon makes But I think It t8 essentlal that the FBI Invegtigate the allegatlong that are recelved In the future % It cant be said that we had-Ignored them or that the case is closed and forgotten. Representatlve ForD: Could you gve us gome Idea `of how many agents: are currently working to one degree Or another o any aspects of this cage? Mr: HOower I would esttmate; Congressman Ford;, that there are at the pregent time at least 50 Or; €0 men gving thelr entire time to various aspects of the Investigation, because whlle Dallas i8 the Ofce of orlgin, Investigation I8 required In auxilary Ofices guch a8 Los Angeles or San Francisco, and even In some forelgn countries Ike Mexlco: We have representatives In Mexlco City. At the outset of the 'investlgation, followlng the assassination, it wa8 the deslre of the Pregldent to bave thts report completed by the Bureau Just a8 qulckly a8 possible, and a8 thoroughly a8 possible, and I would sy we had about 160 men at that tme working o the report In the feld, and at Washington, D.O' Now, All the reports that come in from the feld are, of courge, revlewed at Washtngton. by the supervisor In charge Of the case, and then In turn by the agsietant director of the dlwlslon, and then In turn by Mr: Belmont, who 19 the asslstant to the Director: Reports in whlch there 18 a controverstal issue O where statements have been made Of the existence of some particular thing that we have never beard Of before, I myself, g0 over these, to gee that we haven't missed anything Or baven't bad any gap tn the investigation 's0 it can be tied down. Recently the National Enquirer had a fantastic article in it a8 to the existence of a letter that had been written Or & request that had been made by the Depart- ment of Justice to Chlef Curry of the Dallas Police Department, to withhold arregting Rublnsteiny_or Ruby, and Oswald after the Oswald attempt o Gen- eral Walker'8 life: Firgt;, I had the agent in charge at Dallas interview Chlef Curry and I have gent to the Commission @ letter &S to what Chief Curry had to gay. He branded It &9 an entire lie-that he bad never received any request of that kind I had our fles gearched to be certain we had not wrltten any such letter &8 that and found we had not I requested the Department of Justice to advise me whether they had written any such letter and Mr: Katzenbach advises there is no 99 pIO - ref- ================================================== Page 23 ================================================== 13-00000 erence In the Department fles: to the alleged letter from any Department of Jugtice oficial to Chlef Curry nor any reference that an FBI official was agked ta request. the Dallag police not to arrest Oswald or Ruby. 4 letter is belng sent to the Commisgion today setting forth this information Repregentative FORD. The point that I thok ought to be made is that desplte Lateu4 the magnitude of the effort that has been made by the FBI and by other agencle8, and despite the tremendous efort that bag been made, I believe, by the 'Com- mlssion to belp and assist and to consolidate all of the evidence that we pogeibly could, that there is alwayg the possibility at gome future date tbat %ome:evidence might come to the surface Mr: HOOvEB That i8, 0f courge, pogsible ; yes Representative FORD. I want Just to be 8ure that no leade no evldence regard- less of It8 credlbllity will be ignored; that It will be purgued by the Bureau 0r any other agency to make certain that It I8 good, bad Or Of no value: Mr: HOOvEB Well, I can agsure you 80 far &8 tbe FBI i8 concerhed, the cage Wll be continued In an open classlicatlon for all time- That .8, any Informa- ton comlng to u8 or any report coming to 08 from any gource: WIlL be thoroughly Invegtigated, &0 that we will be able to either prove Or disprove the allegatlon" We found In the courge of our investigations that Indlviduals have made state ments: Yet, when we Investigate they will ` frankly. admit that, the statement 18 an entire falsehood or that they don't know why they wrote the letter Or why they made the stutement But, nevertheleg8, we have 'the record . and {187vn generally tn those ugtances we try to get & gigned gtatement from that Indlvidual 00 It can be made & part of the record: Representatlve FORD: Under your authorlty' from tne Pregident, the euthorky which gave you the FBI, the responsibillty to conduct thls Iovestigatlon It I8 not an authorlty wlth a 'terminal polnt: It 18 an authority that goes on indednitely ? Mr: HoovER Very deflnltely 80 The Presldent wanted & full and thorough inveatlgatlon . made of thls matter, and we bave tried to do 80. 4s I bave gtated, I thlok we WIl continue to receive allegatlong: I thldk thl8 Wll 'be & matter Of controversy for years to come, Just Uke the Ltncoln aegagslnatlon There will be queatlons ralsed by individuals, elther: for publiclty purpogea 0r otherwlee; that will ralse gome new angle Or new a8pect of It I thlnk we must;, and certalnly we Intend Ln the FBI to continue to run down any guch allegatlons or reporte Of thel kind, Reprecentative Boddg. Mr: Obalrman The: CEAIBMAN Ye8, Congresgman Bogge: Repregentatlve Boqo8. Mr: Hoover, I don't want .any. cover to cover: any ground wnlch hag been covered but I Jugt have oe O two questlons Firot, let me gay that you and the Bureau have been' very cooperative wlth thls Commle elon Mr: HoOvER Thank you Representative. Bogae: And tremendously helpful; I have been concerned about some Of these wlld pregs reports and concerned about what impact It may bave . ulttmately on the' hlstory of thle For Ingtance there. I8 a man named Buchanan who has wrltten a gerles of artlcles Mr: DOLLEg: A book nOw 4 book Is out; yes: Representatlve Boaae: A book now . I understand bave been wldely ctrculeted in the European preg8, and this man came here and wa8, &8 I It from 8ome other gources, be took in gome people here, 8ome American Journal- Ists, and I am told that thlg man hag & Communist background, and in addttion to that k8 a most unrelieble pergon: He bag made thege allegations that the Dallag pollce force wag Involved in the agsagsination and 80 On_ Would you.bave any guggestiong on thlg Commigsion ghould deal with thls gort of .thing? Mr; HOOVEB We beve recelved @ requegt rrom the. Commisslon to revlew that book and to make 9 report upon any, portiong Of It that can be contradicted or substantiated by actual facts Or documents: I know Buchanan'8 background: He worked o the Washlngton Star and he wag dismiesed from the Washington Star becauge he wag a member 0f the Communist Party. He gpent much Of hle tlme In recent year8 In France wrlting for French newspapers I beve fol- 100 thing: they got bow ================================================== Page 24 ================================================== 13-00000 lowed the artlcles thet be bag wrltten abont thle matter and they are wbat I would call "journallstlc garbage There 18 not 9 ecintilla 0f truth to most of the things be bag written In these articleg and' in his book which I bave bad a chance to gcan but haven't actually revlewed yet; It 1g being reviewed ' by my regearch gection: Some of the allegetions are utterly fantagtic. I often wonder where gome of thege indivldualg get guch Ideag and why they make guch gtatements without foundation Now, be makes many wlld charges there, and to read 1t, a . person not know- Ing hlm, O hig vlew8, Or hig background, would be Inclined to wonder: I thlnk you are golng to have thet problem, &8 I 8ay, for,year8 to come: I don't know bow you can handle Indlvlduals Ike hln Other than to heve the record , cleer upon the facts Of the cabe, and either gubetantiete Or disprove his gtatements: I don't think too much tme ghould be given to thege Individuals wbo have guch ungavory backgrounde a8 Buchanan ba8 and who makeg gtatements that have been proved to be untrue: But, at the game tlme I think when 8 book Uke that comes out or an article of that type comeg out that deale 'with the aggagginatlon 0f the late Pregident, I thlnk It ghould be gone Into from an Inp- vegtlgative polnt 0f view7. We ghonld then gubmlt to thlg Commigsion, even after It: bas concluded Itg hearinge, fxr record purposeg, what we bave found In each partlcular Ingtance: Representatlve Boaa8. Now, On che Other gde Of the fence ' Mr: DOLIEB. May I-add one Other thlng Just' to Interrupt I wlgh you would add to your llst a book called "The Red Roges of Dallag" by & man named Gun: He 18 & more relleble corregpondent; Mr. HOOvEB. He Ig-& Phlladelphla corredpondent Mc: DOLLEB: He hag beeu llving In thle country Gince 1946. I have met hlm over here: Iet'g 8ee, he wa8 at Dallas at the tlme: He was then reporting, I thlnk, for the Italtan newspaper Epoca. Mr: HoovEB. That 1g not the game One. Mr: DULLE8. He might have been lytng: Thlg book i8 full of Ieg. But I thlnk It Ig @ book that ought to be added, too, and I will gee that & copy. l8 gent 'to the Bureau: Mr. HoovBR I would appreclate that Repregentative Boade: On the' other elde of the gpectrum gome professor out at the Onlvergity of Illlnoly wrote 8 plece In whlch he alleged the Pregident wa8 , &' Communtst agent, Presldent Kennedy, and Buchanan'9 allegationg are that the extreme right agsagslnated 'the Pregldent and thie fellow's allegations are that the Communlsts ageasglnated the Pregldent: Would: you care to com- ment? Have you read that plece? Mr: HOovER ` I bave read that plece: My comment on It 18. this in general I think the extreme rlght Ig Jugt a8 much a danger to the freedom of thle country 88 the extreme left: There are groups, organizatdong, and Individuals op the extreme rlght who make these very volent: statements, allegatlong that Generel Elgenhower w88 a Communist, dlsparaging: references to the Chlef Juetlce and at the other end Of the gpectrum you have 'thege leftlsts who make wtld gtatements.charglng almost anybody wlth belng 9 Fagciet Or belonging . to gome of these g0-called extreme rlght gocletleg: Now, I bave felt, and I bave Baid pablicly In epeeches, that they are Just a8 much 8 denger; at either end of the gpectrum: They 'don't deal wlth facts. Anybody who will allege that General Elgenhower wa8 9 Communist agent, ha8 gomethlng , wrong wlth hlm: 4 lot of people read guch allegetiong becauge I get gome 0f the welrdegt letters wanting to know whether we bave Inqulred to flnd out whether that Ig true. I bave: known General Bisenhower qulte Well myeelf and I have found him to be a gound level-beaded man: In New York City there i8 a woman by the neme of Kraue who mugt be mentally deranged 88 ghe stande on a Broadway corzer there handing out leadlets In which ghe charges me wltL being Ia the congplracy wtth the Com- munlets to overthrow this Government and 80 forth: Well now, If any pergon hag fought communism, I certainly have fought it: We have tried to fght it and expose It In democratic wayg I think that Ig_ the thing we bave to very defnltely keep In mind In thls whole problem in the 101 ================================================== Page 25 ================================================== 13-00000 security of the President and the successor to office: Just how far you are going to g0 for his protection and his security. I don't think you can absolute gecurity without almost establishing a police state; and we don't want that You can't put security in a black groove or a white groove: It i8 in 4 gray groove; and certain chances have to be taken: You are dealing with & human being when yOu are dealing with the President of the United States: President Johnson is & very down to earth human being, and 'it makes the gecurity prob- lem all the more difcult, but you can't bar him from the people: There are certain things that can be done, and I submltted 9 memorandum to the Secret Service, and to the White House on certain gecurity gteps that might be taken and tightened up. But you are dealing with the generel publlc and that i8 what has given me great .concern in the recent expansion, `Of the criteria for dissemination that we adopted after the agsassination: Prior to that: time we reported to the Secret Service all information that dealt with individuals who were potential killerg or by Whom acts 0f violence might be anticipated. The Secret Service would take tbat information and would do with it a8 they saw ft; I gave great conglderation to it because I am not very happy with the criterie expansion, but I felt we had to include gubver- sives of various character;, and extremists: We have, in turn, ` furnished their names to the Secret Service: Ithink 5,000 nameg up to the present tlme already have been gubmitted 'and there are at leaet three Or four thougand more that will be submitted within the next few months: Then you come to the: problem Of.what you are going to do when the Secret Service gets those names They beve to cal: upon the' local authorities: Just recently , In the city of Chicago, when the President wa8 there, the local au- thorities were agked to give .assistance a8 they usually do to the Secret Serv- ice and they went to the homes Of some of these people, and it regulted really almost in & house arrest Now, I don't thlnk there is any place in this country fbr that kind 0f thing, but these people who belonged to extreme subversive organlzationg Or organlza- tiong that advocated the overthrow Of government by force and violence were told that . they couldn't leave their bouge Or ff they did they would be aC - companied .by a police officer: That gives me great concern becauge In New York City. alone, you run into maybe three or four thousand guch individuals who .would be members of gubverglve organlzatlong, and then you into' the twilight zone of subversive fronts: Now, there again, merely because & man belonge to & gubversive front organl- zation, in my estimation doesn't mean that he is blacklisted and is" 9 menace to the country for life: If he belongg to '20 of them, It certaloly ghow8 either One Of two he is either very gullible and dumb Or: he i8 &,menace: That bag. been my ettitude in regard to Government gervice where you fnd a Gov- ernment employee who belonged to: one Or two, maybe In hls early days: I don't believe this necessarily makes him a gecurity rigk: Rather, this would be dependent o the degree of his activity in the front group and hig purpose and intent:in associating himself with It But where he hag belonged to 15, 18, 20 of them, I don't think he has enough. judgment to be in the Government Some ministers' get draw into -organizationg, some of: which are under the domination of the Communist Party. Now, those ministers don't' know that They are just ag loyal and patriotic a8 you and I are, but they: bappen to belong: Now, that: i9 where the question of human judgment ha8 to be used: We try to uge it . in selecting these names: But I wa8 startled when I learned 0f the incident in Chicago because there you come pretty close to & house arregt and we don't want that: We don't want & gestapo: We bave to, I think, main - tain an even balance: I think it: was very well expressed Mr_ DULLEB. I ask You, Mr: Hoover, wag tbig house arrest baged on names YOu bad furnished the Secret Service and they furnished the local authorities ? Mr. HoOvEB: sir_ Representative Boaas That brings me back to the question I think I heard 102 get get things, good May Yes, ================================================== Page 26 ================================================== 13Q0000 Oongressman Ford ask you 98 I came into the rOOm, because I think this is the crux of our investigation_ I read the FBI report very carefully and the whole-implication Of the report i8 that, number one, Oswald shot the President : nuiber two, that he was not connected with any conspiracy of-any kind, nature Or description: Mt: HoovER Correct: Representative Boaqg: Do you still gubscribe to that? Mc: HOOvER. I gubscribe to it even 'more strongly today than I did at the time tbat the report was written: You see, the original idea was that tbere would be investigation by the FBI and a report would be prepared in such form that it could be releaged to the public: Representative Boaa8. Surely. Mr: HoovER. Then a few days later, after further congideration, the President decided to form & commission; which I think was very wige, because I feel that the report'of any agency of Government investigating what mlght be come ghort- comings on the part of other agencies of Government ought to be reviewed by an impartial group guch 98 thig Commission: And the more I have read these reports, the more I am convinced that Oswald wa8 the man who fred the gun ; and be fired three times, killed the President, and wounded Governor Connally. And I also am further convinced that there Is absolutely no agsoclation be- tween Oswald or Ruby. There wag no guch evldence ever establlshed: Mr: DOLLEs. Or Oswald and anybody else? Would you go that far? Mr. HoOvER Anybody else who mlght be ' Mr: DOLLEB. In connection with the assasslnation ? Mr: HoovBR Yes I would certainly g0 that far: There wag gusplcion at frgt thig mlght be & Castro act: Representative Boaa8 ` Right: Mr. HoovER: We had information that had been obtalned in Mexico City by another Intelligence agency Indicating there was a man who bad seen a certaln amount of money passed to Oswald at the, Cuban Consulate: I think It wa8 86,0000 that was passed. We went into that very thoroughly: The man later retracted hle statement and stated it was not true: He was asked whether he would take a lie detector test, and he did The He detector test ghowed that he was telling & Me: As to the Lie' detector; I do want to make thls comment on 1t. I have alwayg held to the opinion that 1t is not a perfect piece of machinery. It *8 an' inter- pretation made by human beings of what the machine, the polygraph, ghows 1 woula never want to convict Or to send to the penitentiary any person solely on the evldence Of the lie detector: It l9 & contributlon in an investigation, 8.more Or less pyychological contribution. But I bave seen individuals wbo have failed the le detector test and who were just a8 innocent a8 they could be. Tbet particular lead ' in Mexico Clty was completely dlsproved; there wa8 no foundation for It; We found no agsociations between Oswald and Ruby. There has been & story printed that Ruby and Oswald worked together and were close frlends There wag no evidence, there was never any indlcation tbat we could find that Oswald had ever been in Ruby'8 nightclub o had had any association.with hlm: Ruby comes from Chicago, he was on the fringe of what YOu might call the elements of the underworld there. He came to Dallas, opened up the nightclub and it was & place where, certainly not the better class 0f people went; but It wasn't any 80 called "joint;' to use the vernacular. It was: just another night club. So far a8 we have been able to establish there was no relationghlp or contact between: Ogwald and Ruby or anyone else allegedly involved ` In: thlg assassination. Representative Boqq8 The FBI interviewed practically everybody who ever asgociated with Oswald ? Mr: HoovER It did_ Repregentative Boga8. You didn't find any indication of why anyone ghould even suspect that Oswald would do this, did you " 103 an ================================================== Page 27 ================================================== 13-0QQ00 slowly. It wasn't going at 9 high rate 0f speed, 80 that be bad: perfect oppOr- tunity to do It: Now, some people have raised the question : Why didn't he shoot the Presf: dent 4s the car came toward tbe storehouse where he was working? The reason for that is, [ think, the fact. there were some trees between hle window 0n the sixth foor and tbe cars a8 they turned and went through the park: So be walted untll the car got out from under the trees, and the Imbs, and tben he bad a perfectly clear view of the occupants of the CAr, and I thlnk be took aim, either on the President or Connally, and I personally believe it was the President In view of the twisted mentality the man had. But he had glven no Indication of that_~We bad interviewed hlm, I think, three tlmes: Of courge, our interviews were predicated to fnd out whether be had been recrutted by the Rugsian Intelllgence service; because they frequently do tbat: Repregentatlve Boaag. And had he been ? Mr: HOovEB. He had not been, %0 he said, and we have no proof that he wag. He had been over there long enough but they never gave him cltizenship In Russia at all: I think they probably looked upon him more 48 a kind Of a queer sort of Indlvidual and they didn't trust him too gtrongly. But Just the day before yesterday informatlon came to me indicating that there Is an espionage training school outside of Minsk ~I don't know whether it is true and tbat he wa8 trained at that gchool to come back to thls countty to become what they call a "gleeper;' that Is & man wbo will remaln dormant for 3 Or 4 years and in case of international hostilities rise up and be used: I don't know of any espionage school at Minsk or near Mingk, and I don't know how could fnd out ff there ever wa8 one because the Rugsians won't tell you tf you agked them. They do have esplonage .and sabotage schools in Russie and they do have an agsassination equad that i8 used by them but there 1g no indication be had any agsoclatlon wlth anythlng Of that kind. Representative Bocag. Now we beve some people; Including thls man'8 mother; talk about Oswald having been an agent of the Government of the Onlted States. I think his mother mentloned the CIA ; ghe has made these etatements publcly for money, epparently. Mr: HOovBR Yes ; 8he hag Representative BoaaB. Just for the purpose of the record, I think It would be well ff you would comment on that, Mr. Director: Mr: HovBR Of course, we have. Intervewed hls mother and hs Wfe, and all his relatives, and everybody that he Is known to bave agsociated with: Hls mother I would put f a category of being emotionally unstable_ Sbe bag been around the country making gpeecheg, and the frst indication Of her emotional instability wa8 the retaining 0f a lawyer tbat anyone would not have retained {f they really were serlous In tryilng to dow to the factg: - But she has been In New York City : she has been in Chicago; I thlnk other parts of the country, alweyg gpeaklng for money. Now, that knd of an Individual f8 the' type we bave geen over the year8, who will say almost anything to draw & crowd: Just to.be able to say some thing 'sensationel Many times we bave gone out to such people and asked them specifcally, "Now, what i8 your baeis for this ?" And they will eay, "Well, I just had & feeling that that was true 80 I said it:' 91 She has never made that statement to uS, but we have many other instances where that kind of gtatement is made: They don't have the legal evidence that you mugt have If you are gotng to take any pogitive action: I would put very little credence In anything that his mother gaid. I think his wlfe wa8 & far more reliable person In statements that ghe made, 80 far &8 we were able to ascertaln, than hls mother: I think the mother had in mind, naturally, the fact she wanted to clear her son'8 name, which wag a natural ingtinct, but more importantly she was going to gee how much money ghe could make, and I believre she has made a substantial sum: Representative Boaag. And the &llegations she has made about this man being an agent either of the CIA O the FBI are false? Mr: HovEB. Well, I can certainly speak for the FBI that it is false, I 105 you get and ================================================== Page 28 ================================================== 13-00000 have discussed the matter, naturally, with Mr: McCone, the Director of CIA, and of course, will no doubt appear bimself, but there is no indication at all that he was employed by them: We frequently_get that kind Of 9 story from individuals who, when they get into some kind of diffculty, will claim they were working for the CIA 0 they were working for the FBI: Representative BocGs. Surely. Mr: HOOvER Now, no one can work for the FBI without the approval being given at Washington and a record kept 0f it, even of the confidential informants. That is very tightly controlled. We bave no so-called lump sum tbat we can use to hire people So there has to be a voucher and specifc details Of payment; And I know at n0 time was he an informant or agent or a special employee o working in any capacity for the FBI: As to the intervlews we bad with him in which he: gave uS some informa- tion, some of it wag not the truth, but this was not particularly signifcant: The interviews we had with hlm I would not term a8 talking with an informant: He was interviewed while under arrest by the New Orleans police, and then after he had committed this act of assassination we interviewed him in pollce headquarters in Dallas: But they were the only contacts we had, I think four contacts altogether, and he received no money of any kind, no promlse of any kind, and there was no indication that he was rendering assistance to the U.S: Government We looked upon him as a criminal after the assassination, of course, and prior to that time we looked upon him as an individual who we suspected mlght become an agent of the Soviet government: There wa8 no proof of that, and we checked him carefully. We knew of his contact wltb the Soviet Embassy here at Washington, hls contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York, and his contact with the Worker publlcation In New York And none of those contacts gave any Indication of any tendency to commit violence: There are many people wbo read the Dally Worker, Or what 19 now the Worker, and you certainly cantt brand them as hazards to the gecurity of the country or a8 potential assasslns; It Is in tbat area that. I am particularly concerned tbat we don't become bysterical and g0 too far In restrlcting the citizens of our country from . exercising their clvil and constitutional rights: The mere fact & person digagrees with you in a matter on communism doesn't mean he should be arrested_ Many Communists make very violent gpeeche8, and we know them, but I don't feel that the time hag come that they should be arrested: If they have violated the laws of the Onited States, we will, then; proceed with prosecution, and the cases can then go through the courts: Such cases last for years: before they get to the Supreme Court, and even then guch cases often start over on some. legal ' angle. But, all in all, I think that the enforcement Of security and the enforcement of laws dealing with subverglon ought to be handled in the American manner: I am criticized by the extreme right for that. They put me in the category, I guess, along with General Eisenbower. But the extreme left criticizes me, saying I believe that any person who has o a red necktie may be addicted to communism, and, therefore, Is & great danger: That is -why I gay the extremists at both ends are bad, and I bave repeated that several times publicly. Representative Boagg. No doubt about the problem being a difcult One: I remember sOme years back when these fanatics started shooting up the House of Representatives: Mr. HoOvEB: I recall tbat Representative BoGas_ I happened to be there on the occasion and there were many suggestions that we build & bulletproof glass enclosure around' the Mem- bers of Congress and s0 on. Of course, all of .us rejected those ideag because it would be totally incompatible with our democratic institutions and this, obviously, becomes 8 problem in the security of tbe President tbat is wbat you are telling US, isn't it? Mr: HOovER That is the great problem: We have participated in the prO- tection of:the President since the assassination: The Secret Service indicates how many agents it needs when the President is traveling somewhere Or golng somewvhere in Washington, and then I assign that number of agents to the Secret Service: They are not under my direction: They are under tbe direction 106 he, ================================================== Page 29 ================================================== 13-00000 of the Secret Service because under law they are charged with the protection of the President: We bave never done that before, but I felt that it was some- thing we must do if the Secret Service desired it: Sometimes, such as at tbe funeral of the late President Kennedy, the procession walked up Connecticut Avenue, which created a very, very grave security problem because they were walking with these tall building on either side: As I recall, we had tbe regpon- sibility for the Cathedral,, and we had 43 agents in the Cathedral during the services: I was more concerned about these tall buildings, because all tbe small buildings bave been torn down along Connecticut Avenue, and there Were about six Or seven blocks to walk: Not only the high officials of this Government, including the President, but the Queen of Greece; General de Gaulle;` Emperor Haile Selassie, and many Prime Ministers were present They were a perfect target for gomeone in some window. Now, you can't empty these buildings: It is impossible to do that, because you can't: g0 to the Mayfower Hotel and say &ll front rooms must be vacated: Other office building8 are there, even taller than the Mayflower, and you can't make them keep everybody out of the front Officeg because then you iuto a police state: The .Secret Service does try to check to fnd out who have these varioug Ofices We also check 8 if there i9 anything in our files on those individuals the Secret Service is at once advised. When the President goes to 9 banquet or 8 social occasion, all of the employees in the hotel,. the cooks, waiters, and busboya, and SO forth, ere all checked by Secret Service to be certain there i8 no one witb 8 background that would indicate 8 hazard to the President But tbat is a8 far 98 I think you can You can't put In-& whole new staf of waiters and you can't make people move out People golng to & Presidential function are generally invited by card or by list and that is very carefully checked at the entrance by the Secret Service: We suggested a few more things that posslbly could be done, and some of which I have doubts about: You speak about thig matter of glass around the galleries.in the House: One of the suggestions that we made was that tbere be bulletproof glass in front of the President8 lectern: In my Ow mind, I question whether that is wise: Knowing thls President a8 this President i8, he wants to get close to the audience; he wants to reach over and shake hands with people: That . concerns me because you never know when an emotionally unstable person may be In that crowd: Ag you noted, he has frequently brought groups into the White House gardens and walked around with people he didu't know. I know the Secret Service people are concerned about It: I am COn- cerned about it: President Truman last week expresged his concern that the President was taking unnecessary chances But the governmental agency having the responslbility for guarding him, the Secret Service, has a natural hesitancy to gay, "You can't do this Representative Boaag: . Of course, for the record, President Kennedy bad the same difculty Mr: HoovEk: That is right It wag best expressed at Parkland Hospital One of Pregident Kennedy's staf made the statement that the whole fault in this matter was that, in the choice between politics and security, politics wag chosen: That is exactly what happened: It was an open car: I am thoroughly opposed to the President riding in an open car: They did not have any armored car' in the Secret Service at that time_ I have now sent one of .our armored cars over for the President, but it ig .a closed limousine: But on occasion, such a8 at Gettysburg and Atlanta tbe other day, the President out of: the armored car which bad been fown there for his use, and commandeered the car of the Secret Service which is wide open, 80 he could wave and see the people Now, that is a great hazard: I think he should always be in an armored car that is closed, that can't bave tbe top down. But a9 you recall, President Kennedy had the bubble top 0f of the car tbat hbe was in. It was not armored and the bubble was made of plastic so & bullet could have gone through it very eagily. Representative FoRD. Mr: Hoover, you have categorically testified that the 107 get g0. got put top ================================================== Page 30 ================================================== 13-00000 FBI never at any time had Oswald a8 an agent, a8 an informant, or In any other way: Mr: HOOvER: That is correct: I couldn't make it more emphatic Representative FORD: And Mr: Belmont testifed to the game last week when be was before u8_ Mr: HoovER: sir: Representative FoRD. Both you and be would be fully familiar with aL of the records of the FBI in this regard ? Mr: HOOvER. We would, and we would not only be fully familiar ` with it because while Mr: Belmont is in charge of tbe Investigative Branch of the Bureau-we have two agsistants to the Director, one in charge of administrative work and the other in charge Of invegtigative work_We have aleo checked the administrative records where vouchers Or payments would have been made-and there is Do indication tbat any money wa8 ever paid to Oswald: We beve obtained, and they are 0n file with the Commission, the afidavits of the agents, who at various times were in contact with Oswald, to the effect that he was not an informant ; that they had never paid him anythipg tbat he wa8 being questioned a8 to possible recruitment by the Soviet intelligence ; 80 there wa8 no evidence at any time indicating employment by the FBI: Representative FORD: And you were not under any limitation or restriction from any other authority in thlg regard? Mr: HoovEB Absolutely not. I bave the entire control Of whether a man shall be an informant or ghall not be an Informant: That comes under _ my 2404t chain of command from the local ofice whlch hag the matter at hand: They can't just 0n an informant without our approval The recommendation on security informants comes to tbe Bureau; It goes through the Agggtant Director of the Domestic Intelligence Division, and, In gignifcant case8, gqes to Mr: Belmont, and then to my desk for my specifc approval So I, or my geat-of-government staf, bave to approve 'every one Of those who are used &8 informants in all clagses of cases, not only In Intelligence cases but In white glave cases, automoblle thefts, and all of these case8 Representative FOBD There i8 no limitation On what you can tell us about this situation ? Mr. HovEB: None whatsoever: Representative FoRD. No limitation ; nO restrictlong ? Mr: HoOvEB: No regtriction: So far 98 the record of voucher8 in the Bureau are concerned, they are open to the Inspectlon of thls Commlsslon at any time going back a8 fer 98 you may want to g0. Senator COOPER I aek just oe question there? I think you have an- swered It, but in your examination of thls aspect 88 to whether or not Oswald wag an informer Or employee or held any relatlonship to the FBI, you, yourself; have looked into all of the means you have of determining that fact when you make the gtatement to u8? Mr: HoovER I have personally looked into that for two reasong Becauge the President asked me personally to take charge of thls investigation and to direct 1t, and I knew that the report ultimately would be made to:him: For that rea- gon I became familiar with every Gtep and every action that wa8 taken: Then when the allegation was made by someone-I thlok it was tbe mother of 'O8- wald frst, if I recall correctly_-that he was employed: by some Government agency, the CIA or FBI, and maybe both, I Ingisted upon a check being made and any record showing any indication of that being brought to me. When they could fnd none, I tben asked for afdavits from the feld force that had dealt with Oswald &8 to ` whether bad hired bim OI paid him anything O given him anything, and the afdavits are on file here that they bad not; Senator COOPER I think you have said there i9 no sum available to the FBI which would enable these men, these agents, to employ him out of any funds that &re made available to them. Mc_ HoovER: no It mugt be done by voucher, and those voucherg are ex- amined by the General Accounting Ofce every year Or SO. We have no lump gum in the feld offices for employment of informants 98 such which is not gup ported by vouchers: Senator COOPER I have Just about two questions, I may have to g0 in a few 108 Yes, put May tbey Oh, ================================================== Page 31 ================================================== 13-00000 minutes to the Senate: I would llke to direct your attention to that period of time when Oswald was & defector, beginning when he left the United States and when he returned: Mr: HoovER sir. Senator COOPER During that period, did the FBI have any jurisdiction over intelligence regarding him, or any capacity to know? Mr: HOOVEB While he was in Russia ? Senator COOPEB Yes: Mr: HoOvER No; we did not. We were interested in knowing what he might Bay in Rugsia that appeared in the press: That was our frst intimation that this man bad defected, when we read It in 4 newspaper article: We were, of courSe, Interested in knowing when be would return O5 if be would return: We bad mo Jurisdiction 98 to what he was doing in Russia after he had gone there: Senator COOPER As I understand It, you had no capacity at that time to follow his activities? Mc: HoovEB. That is true: We have no agents in Russia: Foreign intelli- gence is handled by the ' Central Intelligence Agency, and our responsibility 18 domestic: We work very closely together: Senator COOPEB Have you bad tbe . Juriediction gince the assassination or the occaslor to examine persons connected with the State Department concern- the actlvities of Oswald in Ruggla ? MI: HoovEL Well Senator COOPEB. Would that be & matter for gome other egency" Mr. HOovEB That could be & matter for CIA or for u8 after Oswald hbad re- turned bere: Senator CoOPEB: Yeg: Mr: HOOVER Then he becomes & civilian Ln the country here: Now there i8 wbat we cal 9 delimitation agreement among the Government intelligence agenciee For Ingtance, the mlitary branches of the Government have their own Lntelligence services and they handle all military deviations in regard to espionage Or things Of that kind. If they want our assistance and ask for It we, of course, will alwayg cooperate: In regard to CIA, there are many cases which CIA and thbe FBI work Jointly 0, Of individuals that may have been recrulted over in Europe by the OLA, not by u8, because we don't have authorlty to do that abroad, but when that man comes to thls country, the best ends Of Intelligence are served by having the two agencles work very closely together, conduct Joint interviews, and exchange information very, very freely . That bag been going On ever since I can recall CLA being exlstence Mc: DOLIEB: I would like to testify to the fact that that cooperation existed during.the whole period I wa8 Director; and I am gure It has continued now wIth great cooperation on- both gideg: Mr: HOOvER It i8 a very necessary thlng, because the intelligence agency of many of these foreign countries wl cover the whole world and the country itself: Whereas in this country you heve separate agencies covering espionage activitles: CIA covers the forelgn activity, and the FBI the domestic activities, and they must be interlocking: An espionage agent Of the Soviet Government can arrive [n New York today by plane from Paris and he can be In Mexico City tomorrow. Then, CIA would pick him up there: We would not pick hlm up there: We would watch him while In thig country, but as soon as he takes that plane and leaves the United States CIA moves in 6n hlm: If he comes back to the United States, we move In 0n him: Therefore; we have a very.cloge liaigon: A8 a matter of fact, what .we have done in government agencies is. to have a Liaison agent in our Bureau asslgned to contact CIA, the Pentagon, State Department, and various other agencies to cut out the red tape of writing letters back and forth; In order to orally relay Information which bas come to hig attention our representative can immediately phone It over to the FBI, and If there i8 need, for instance, to meet a plane coming in to New York O & boat that Ig docking at New York, it is all accomplished within 4 matter Of 4 minutes o an hour: 109 Yes, Ing ================================================== Page 32 ================================================== 13-00000 If you went through this Jetter-writing process and the paper war that goes on s0 often in the Government it might take & week Or 10 days. The FBI does have 10 legal attaches attached to 10 embassies abroad: Their purpose is not operational They don't investigate in tlose countries any matters that have to be investigated. That, if it is to be done, is handled by CIA: Our purpose in being there is to maintain liaison with our opposite number such as the Surete Nationale in France and with the national police in the Philippines, to erchange information that is vital to our internal security, and also vital to the internal security of the other country_ Senator COoPER May I ask one other question ? Is there any, considering the number of defectors in the United States to Communist countries,.which cannot be large, I would assume Mr: HoOvEB I think there are about 36 Senator COOPER Wbich would indicate, I would think either a lack of re liability on their part and stability or beyond that a dedicated purpose to become Communists, then upon their return, wouldn't it seem to you they should be given some special attention? Mr: HoovER We have now_ Senator COoPER To determine whether they are a risk to become Soviet or Communist espionage agents Or in fact become dangerous? Mr: HOOFER We have taken steps to plug that gap: Prior to the assassination of the President, a 'defector; before he came back was always cleared for return by a representative of the State Department: or the military abroad; When he came back we immediately interviewed him if he was & civilian: It had to be done promptly to determine whether he could be & potential intelligence agent: Now, in December of last year; following the assassination, we expanded the criteria of what should be furnished to the Secret Service, and all defectors automatically g0 on the list to be furnished to the Secret Service: There are 36 defectors that we know Of in this country who have been under investigation: Some of tbose men may have changed their views ` sincerely_ Some of them may not have: But as a matter of general precaution 9S a result of the Oswald situation we are seeing that all go to the Secret Service: Mr. DULLES That Includes military defectors, does it not? Mr. HOOvER Military defectors and defectors from any private agency, after they return to the U.S. and become civilians: Some have defected to China, to the satellite nations and to Russia: Senator CoOPER Just oe other question, because I have to g0. In tbe course of thls investigation, as you know SO well, there bave been a number identified who were very close, at least to Mrs; Ozwald, and a few, I can't say that were close to Oswald they bad association with him, such as the man who drove him back and forth, Mrs Paine, with whom Mrs: Oswald lived, and others, bas there been any credible, I won't say credible because if you bad you would have presented it to us in your report, has there been any claims by persons that these people are in any way releted to the Communist Party ? Mr: HOOvER: We have had no credible evidence that they have been related to the Communist Party in this country. Now, as to Mrs: Oswald the wife of Oswald, there is no way of knowing whether she belonged to the Russian Communist Party in Russia: She ia a rather intelligent woman, and notwithstanding that you bave to talk with her through an interpreter, we bave had Do indication of her association with Communists in this country, nor have any of her close friends or relatives: As to his mother, we found no indication she is associated Or closely aSSO- ciated with the Communists. She is the only one of the group that we bave come in contact with that I would say is somewhat emotionally unstable Our agents have interviewed her: She sometimes gets very angry and she won't answer questions As to-the rest of the group who had been friends 0f his, .Or worked with him in tbe Texas School Book Depository, none of them have indicated any Communist associations of any kind. Senator COOPEB Thank you. 110 yet ================================================== Page 33 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr: HoovER Thank Mr: RANKIN. Mr: Hoover, I hband you Exbibit 83 and ask you to examine that and state whether Or not that is the letter that ou referred to in whlch you answered questions of the Commission concerning the National Enquirer magazine newspaper ? Mr: HOOVER. This letter of May. 8 addressed to the Commission is the letter that dealt with our interview with Chief Curry and was predicated upon the article which appeared in the National Enquirer Of May 17,.1964. Mr: RANKIN . I ask you If you would care to add anything to that letter except what you have already testifled to? Mr_ HoovR No; I bave nothing to add to that; Chief Curry was very spe cific, I am told by my agent In charge at Dallas, that this article is an absolute lie; that none of these things set forth in the article occurred; that he received no phone call or any request of any kind oral or by phone O in writing from the Department of Justice Or from the FBI As I stated earlier; the report from the Department of Justice indicated that they made mo request: Mr; RANKIN. Mr:' Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhlbit 863, being the letter Just referred to. The CEAIBMAN . It may be admitted: (The docunent referred to w98 marked Commission Exhibit No. 863 for identifcation and received In evldence:) Mr: RANKIN . Mr: Hoover, is Exhibit 837 the article that you referred to in the National Enquirer? Mr: HOOVER. Yes; that Is tbe one: Mr: RANKIN . I call your attention to Exhibit 836 and ask you if that i8 the letter that you referred to which describes the criteria in the handling Of the security Of the Presldent that have described in your testimony. Mr; HOOVER Thi8 Is the letter: It sets forth the criteria which were adopted, originally about 1942 and later incorporated in the manual of instructions In 1954. It also includes the amended instructions to our feld ofices, prepared in December of 1983, which extended the criteria Mr: RANKIN. Does that Exhibit correctly set forth the information you bad in regard to those matters? Mr. HoovER It doeg: Mr; RANKIN. Do.yYou care to add anything to It? Mc: HoOvER No I bave nothing to add to it at all: Mr; RANKIN . Now; in light of what happened; Mr: Hoover, I think the Com- mission would desire to have your comments 0r whatever yOU care to tell them, concerning the reasong why you did not furnish the informatlon you had Con- cerning Lee Harvey Oswald to the Secret Service prlor to the time of the Presi- dent's assassination: Mr: HoOvER Well; I have gone into that very thoroughly because that wa8 obviously one of the questions that I had in my mind when the tragedy occurred In Dallas In going back over the record, and I have read each one of the reports deallng with that and the reports Of Mr: Hosty who had dealt with the Oswald situa- tion largely in Dallas, we bad the matter that I bave previously referred to, the report of the State Department that indicated this man was 9 thoroughly safe risk, be bad changed his view8, he was a loyal man now and had seen the light of s0 to speak How intensive Or hOw extensive that interview in Moscow was, I don't know. But, nevertheless, it was in & State: Department document that was furnished to us: Now, we interviewed Oswald a few days after he arrived: We did not inter- view him on arrival at the port of entry because that is always undesirable by reason of 'the fact it is heavily covered by press, and any relatives generally are there, s0 we prefer to do it after tbe man bas settled down for two or three days and become composed We do it in the privacy of our office Or wherever he may be, or in bis own home or apartment. We interviewed him twice in regard to that angle that we were looking for: We had no indication at this time of anything other than his s0-called Marxist leanings, Marxist beliefs 111 you: or you day, ================================================== Page 34 ================================================== 13-00000 We wanted to know Irhether he had leen recruited hy the Soviet government as an intelligence agent, "hich is 9 frequent and constant practice: There is not & year goes by but that indiriduals and groups of-individuals, squetimcs on these cultural exchanges, go through Russia andl recruits are enlisted by the Russian intelligence, usually through blackmail. The indiridual is threatenerl tbat if he doesn 't come back to this country and work for theni ther #ill expose the fact that he is a homosexual or 9 (legenerate or has been indiscrete. Pictures are usually taken of individuals who become implicated in that sort of thing, so the individual i8 really (lesperate: Such blackwail has occurred year after year for some time: In Oswald's case we bad no suspicion that any pressure like that had been brougbt to bear 0n bim because he had gone voluntarily and had obriously wanted to live in Russia and bad married & Russian woman. After those interviews had been completed, the next incident #as the difficulty be bad at New Orleans: We were concerned there 49 to whether he was functioning Officially for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee which was financed and supported by Castro and Castro' s gorernmeut, and if he Tas, where be obtained money and with whom he had dealt: He apparently bad the leafets printed himself on plain ordinary paper: There was no reason for u8, then, to bave any suspicion that he had any element of danger in him: However, we did not ignore or forget the fact that be ras still in the country. We kept track of him nhen he went from New Orleans to Dallas, and that was one of the reasons why Hosty went to the bome of Mrs: Paine: She told us whbere Oswald Was rorking, at the Tevas book house Hosty gare her his telephone number and his name SO that if there was any information or any contact she wanted to 'make she could phone bim at the Dallas offce: Mrs: Oswald, tbe wife, took down the license number of Hosty's car which was incorrect only in one digit; The name, the telepbone number, and tbe automobile license were later found in Oswald s memorandum book: Howerer, that in itself Fas not significant because many times we wIll go to see a person and tell him now, "If sou think Of anything want to tell u9 or you have any information you want to give us, here are my name and address, telephone number, and call me; and that is. #bat was done with Mrs: Paine becavse Hosty wasn't there at the time: He was at work: Incidentally , those items in Oswald's notebook requiring investigative tention were frst set out in an investigative report of our Dallas Ofice dated December 23, 1983. This report was not prepared for this Commission but rather for investigative purposes of the FBI and, therefore, the ` information concerning Hosty's name, telephone number and license number ras not in- cluded in the report as the circumstances under which Host's name, et cetera, appeared in Oswald's notebook were fully known to the FBI: After our investigative report of December 23, 1963, was furished to the Commission, we noted that Agent Hosty's name did not appear in the: report: In order that there would be & complete reporting Of all items in Oswald'8 note book, this information was incorporated in another investigative report of our Dallas Ofice, dated February 11, 1964. Both of the above-mentioned reports were furnished to the Commission prior to any inquiry concerning 'this matter br the President's Commission: There was nothing up to the time of the assassination that gare any indica- tlon tbat this man was a dangerous character #ho might do harm to the Presi- dent or to the Vice President: Up to that time, as has been indicated: Mr: RANEIN. Mr. Hoorer, may I interrupt;, Fou' said Hosty was not there at the time, he was at work- did you mean Mr. Oswald ? Mr HOOvER That was my mistake I meant Mr. Oswald: Hosty talked with Mrg. Paine and Mrs. Oswald: Mrs Paine speaks Russian and she could inter- pret for her: Oswald was at the Texas Book Co-, and then, aS I say , Hosty left his tele-. phone number and name, and Mrs. Oswald for some reason took down tbe license number: I don't know wbether she was convinced this was an agent of the FBI, or why ghe did it: 112 sou at- ================================================== Page 35 ================================================== 13-00000 But, anywan that WaS in the bonk that was later fouuc. aud which contained many other things that Oswald had entered in the book Now, as I say, up to that time, there had been -no information that would bare warranted our reporting him as a potential danger Or hazard to the xurity or the safety of the President or the Vice President, s0 his name M}~ not fur - nished at the time to Secret Serrice: Under the new criteria which we hare now put into force #ud effect, it would have been furnished beca use Ie now include all defertors: As to the original criteria, which we felt were sound and sufficient and which Me felt no one, not eren the most extreme civil rights promnent could take exception to. we limited the furnishing of names to S.S: to persons Ixtentially dlangerous to the physical well being of the President: We included einotionally unstable people who had threatened tbe President o Vice President: At my ofice during the course Of 9 week there are sometilues three Or four callers who have to be taken to 9 Hospital because of their mental condition. They claim they are being persecuted by radio beams and the; want to see me or. the' President to hare those beams stopped. Now sou nerer kno what tangent they are going to take: If sucb 4 person is liring in some part of the country where the President may be going his name would be furnished to the Secret Service: One car last year_ I think, crashed through the gates Of the White Hvuse tbe person driving wanted to see the President: The guard wouldn't let him in and s0 the car crashed through and got within 20 feet of the frst door: The guards, by that time, had their rerolrers out and took him into custody. Last year & gentleman drore all the from Arizona to see me: He drove up the marble step of the Department of Justice, and by that time the guards had come out and took him into custody. I think he was incarcerated in Arizona: People of this type are among those we would hare furnished to the Secret Service: They have the potential to barm gomebody. We names from members of Congress, of people Iho come to the Capitol and try to threaten them or harass them_ They let us know about it, and we make the investigation or advise the police: If Ie can the family to bave the person put into an institution, Fe try to do so. If they don't, we may take steps to have him incarcerated through other legal Ineans. Mr: DULLEB. How many names; Mc. Director, in general, could the Secret Service process? Aren't:their facilities limited as to dealing with vast numbers of names because of their limited personnel ? Mr. HoovEB: I think they are extremely limited. The Secret Service i8 a very small organization and that Is why we are fortifying them, so to speak, Or supple menting them by assigning agents of our Bureau hich of courge, quite' 8 burden on uS. Our agents are assigned about 24 to 25 cases per agent and cover such [nvolred matters as bankruptcy and antitrust cases: Now, the Secret Service bas 9 very small group and I would estimate tbat the names we have sent over number some 5,00. I would guess there are about "MpiTr another 4,000 that will g0 orer in tbe nert month: to them. Frankly, I don't gee bow they' can g0 out and recheck those names: We keep the records up to date if additional information comes in On these names we furnish It to the Secret Service: They will bave to call upon the local authorities, unless the Secret Serrice force is enlarged considerably s0 that they can handle it entirely on their own: I think the Secret Serrice is entirely too small a force today to bandle the duties tbat they are handling: The great crowds that are at the white House all the time. around the gates, that go to church #-here the President goes, all of those things, of course, hare to be checked over by them_ Tbey always check in advance and just recently, a few Sundays ago, they found some indiriduals in the basement of St; Mark's church In Washington, where be was going to attend on Sunday morning: His arrival was held up until tbey could ascertain who thes Fere: Thev Irere deaf mutes whbose identity bad not been cleared with the Secret Serrice: Now, the Presidential party was delajed about 5 or 10 minutes in reaching the church by reason of the radio call to the Wlhite House to hold it up. We are giring to Secret Service more and more names: The total, in addition 5o the names they already had, will reach 10,0000. I don't see how tbey are 113 way get get i9, ================================================== Page 36 ================================================== 13-00000 going to be able to handle the situation as they would want to handle it: They hare to depend upon local police organizations Many local police departments are capable and efficient; some are not. Many have judgment and some bave not: Whererer you have 2 police department of 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 men You are bound to find a few who will just barge in and do something which better judgment Ivould dictate should not be done, as in the incident which occurred in the Midwest where they placed people practically under house arrest: I think it was very bad judgment and should not hare been done but the Secret Service; of course, turned the names over to the local authorities, and the local authorities do what they think is right. Now, I guess their attitude with all justice to theul is, "Well, we will resolve the risk in our favor: If we keep these people under surveillance and keep them in thbe house until the President gets, out of town nothing can bappen from them: That is what you would call totalitarian security. I don't think you can have that kind of security in this country without baving & great wave of criticism against it: There is a great tendency for people to expect the intelli- gence forces and the law enforcement agencies to be able to g0 out and a1 rest people and bring them in and hold them endlessly and talk to them Wc: cant arrest & person, without probable cause, Or unless he commits a crime ID our presence. We have to arraign him promptly 'and if not done promptly, the confession that he may have made generally cannot be used against him. Just a8 9 collateral matter we faced that problem in California in the case of the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra, Jr: One of the kidnappers we arrested near San Diego confessed but we didn't arraign him because the other kidnap pers would have left California' .and it would have been difcult to find them However, the nert day after arraignment he made changes in the confession and signed it s0 the court held that it was admissible: The Secret Service, of course, is faced with tbe game problem: They just can't arrest people because they may not like their looks: They hare to have facts justifying detention but the public conception is that you bave a full right to g0 out and do these things We have stressed in the FBI that there must be full compliance with the laws of this country and with the decisions of tbe Supreme Court; That is the law 0f the country. Now, whether a person likes it Or not and there are some groups that are very .violent against the decisions of the court while Others are very much in favor Of them; it i8 not for the FBI to take sides: We have & Job to do and we do It under the rullngs Of the courts and we have been able to do It effectively. I know when the ruling came down on the prompt arraignment, there wds great shouting and some strong editorials claiming that it was going to wreck law enforcement; It basn't wrecked u8. It has. made it more difcult but I think we have to face up to the fact that law enforcement .in a free country must abide by the laws of that country irrespective of how difficult it is Some persons talk about putting handcuffs o the law enforcement officers and taking them 0f the criminals: That is a nice catch phrase to use in a speech or article but operating within the law has.not interfered with our work. Mr__RANKIN Mr; Hoover, I ask you about Exhibit 825 which is frst & letter and then encloses certain affidavits of your agents: Mr: HOovEB Yes, sir: Mr: RANKIN_ You are familiar with tbat? Mr: HoovEB I am familiar with that I read all of that and signed it; Mr: RANKIN . You know those are the affidavits in regard to whether Lee Harrey Oswald was an agent or connected in anyway with the Bureau that you have just testified to? Mr. HoovEB That is correct ; and the affidavits of al1 agents, who had: any contact with him: Mr: RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibits 864 and 865, and ask you if you have seen those before OT, you have seen the original of 864 and 865 is a photostatic copy of your letter to us in answer to 861, is that correct ? Mr: HoovER. That iS correct ; yes: I recall very distinctly. Mr:- RANKIN . Do you recall those letters involved an inquiry as to any con- nections of Lee Harvey Oswald with Communists or any criminal groups .or others that might be conspiratorial ? 114 good ================================================== Page 37 ================================================== 13-00000 refralned from further comment but o course by that time 'the identification Of the gun wag known, the caliber 0f the gun, where It bad come from, where It bad been bought and the information we had run dow in Chicago and had furnighed to the Dallas Police Department; If tbe cage had been in the hands of the FBI none of that information would have been gven out: Because of the publicity you had to face the charge that tbe prejudice of the community would require a change of venue: With the pablicity, I don't know where you could bave changed the venue to, since news- paper8 all over the State covered it: I think & Houston reporter was the frst one 'who wrote that Oswald was a0 inforant of the FBI: went to the newgpaper reporter. He refuged to tell u8 bls source: He sald he had aleo heard It from other persons: We agked him the nameg 0f these peroong and we Interrlewed them but none of them would provlde tbe source: In other words, I wa8 trying to nail down where this Iie started: Tbat, Of course, lg always the regult where you are daily giving out pregs interviewa because the press wants stories desperately. We bave alwayg adopted the policy In the Bureau Of no comment until we have the warrant and make the arrest: Then a release Is prepared briedy stating what the facts are, what tbe written complaint say8, tbe fact The complaint wag fled with the Commissloner; and that ends it. We don't to run It out for a week 'or 10 dayg, It I9 Op to the U.S. attorney thereatter and the court to-try the case: I wa8 concerned about the demand tor change of venue; becauee all the evidence wag belng given out: At that time, of course, we didn't know that Oswald was going to be killed, and there was a possibility that he might be confronted with some Of thts evidence: If it had been kept secret and used in the interrogation of him, just confronting him with wbat was Iound guch 48 hle picture with the gun. mtght have been helpful A 8mall thlng can often make a man break and come forward with 4 ` full confegglon: If he knows In advance that you bave ' certain evidence be will be on guard againgt answering questions Of course; he is alwaye advised of hls rights and that he can have an attorney- We always make 0 point of this:: We generally bave a reputable physlcian of the community present In ou ofce whlle the prisoner Is there, to adminlster to him and be able to testify that be ba8 not been subjected to third degree methods He 1s examlned when he comes jn end be 18-examined before we take blm to the commiesloner_ Takling him betore the commlssloner In & case like Oswald's would probably have been done within 4 or 5 bours: Generally we try to arralgn @ prisoner wIthin an bour: Tbat makeg It more difcult; you bave to work faster: But again I gay I am in favor O having the procedures o lew: enforcement Ofcers a8 tightly bound down &8 we can, with due respect tor the interests o soclety. Of courge, there must be an equal balance For years we bave had 8 rule against third degree methods, but years ag0 many police departments used the third degree: I think very few Of them use It now becauge %f they use it they violate the clvll rights statutes and we investlgate them for baving brutally bandled & prisoner: Many allegations are made unfairly agalnst police ofcer8 that they have used third degree methods and we are able to prove they haven't In our investigations: That is particularly true where civil rlghts matters are [nvolved: We bave such cases In many areag where civll rights agitation Is golng on. Mr: RANEIN. Mr: Hoover, to remind you of my question, any suggestions that Jou may beve concernlng the protection of the President, and the information that the Commigslon has that you bave a special appropriation in that con- nection for the Bureau ? Mr: HoovBR We do not bave & epecial appropriation tor: the protection o the Pregident The Secret Service, Of course, bas that responsibility. On, Decem- ber 2, I prepared thig memorandum for the President, and for the chief of the Secret Service at the request o the President, outlinlng suggestions that I felt bhoald be congidered to tighten up On the security of tbe Pregident If tbe Commisgion deglres I will be glad to leave thls o I will be glad to read It to the Commiseion: Repregentatlve Boaqg. Why don't you ask the Director jugt to Bummarize It: MI. RANKIN. WW you gummarize It? We try 116 ================================================== Page 38 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr. DOLLEB. Can we bave & COpy Of It? Mr: HOOVEB ye8. Representative FORD Could the copy be in the record aS an exhibit ? Mr; HOOVE& Ye8, sir tbat is all right with me: I have no objection to it Regarding travel, frst, advise the Secret Service &8 far in advance 8S possible of the President's travel plans and proposed itinerary. The reason_ for that i8 there bave been Presidents who suddenly decide they are going somewhere And the Secret Service does not have the chance always to cover the area and check the neighborhood and check the hotel or place where it may be: Representative Boao8: You have one like that right nOw, Mr. Director: Mr. HOOvbe I know from erperience: 8ecand avold publicizing exact routes of travel &8 long a8 possible: Agaln, It hag been the practice in the past to announce the President Is going along @ certaln route and , therefore great crowds will gather along that route: And, theretore, I thougbt that wag eomething that ghould not be given out and the Presldent sbould be taken along some routes which are not announced: At the pregent time;' he goeg to citles and he wantg to see people and the crowd wants to gee him In Dallag, the route was publicized at least 24 hours before 80 everybody knew where he wzould be drdving Third, uge @ gpecially armored car with bulletproof glass and have gach care readlly avallable In locations frequently vislted The President, as I observed earlier In my testimony, had no armored car_ He ha8 one nOw which I supplied to Secret Service and they wil one made no doubt In due time for the Prealdent'8 use: But it It bad been armored, I bellere President Kennedy would be alve today: Fourth; avold etting a speciic pattern of travel or other actlvity such a8 vteltdng the eame church at the eame time each Sunday. Regarding publc appearances Firgt, use maximum teasible gcreening of pereong In attendance Including use Of detectlon devicee eensitive to the amount of metal requlred In & frearm Or grenade: Second , use a bulletproof shleld In -front Of the entlre rostrum In publlc ap pearances guch 48 the ewearing In ceremony at the Capltol on Inauguration day, the preeldentiel revewlng 8tand In front Of the Whlte House on the game and on' the rear of tralnb Thtrd, keep to & mlnlmum the Presidente morements withln crowds, remaln On the rostrum after the publlc addresse8 rether than mingllog wth the audlence: Agatn, there Ig great difculty In that deld: Eourth, In appearances at public sportlng events guch 48 football game8, remaln In One place rather, than changing elde8 durlng half-tlme ceremonlee: (DIecuggion O the record ) Mc: DOLLEB. About the armored car yon gald I Kennedy bed an armored cr that mlght bave gaved hkm Would the back O tbe armored car bave eme protectlon to protect hle head? Mr: HOOvER Ohy yeg. Mr: DULIEB. Becauge I the armored car had been open Mr: HOovEx He must never rde In a0 open car tbat bas' been my recom- mendation Mr: DULLEB The back never come8 down ? Mr: Hovex The back nerer comes dwn, and It i8 balletproof: The top; sides, and underpart are all Of bulletproof construction: So that except by openlng a wlndow and waving through the window the occupant l8 ate: pereon can 8hoot tbrough the window I the glags window lg lowered: Eifth, lmlt publlc appearances by u8e o televiglon wbenerer possible: Sirth, avold walking in public except when absolutely necesgary. Now, op leglslatlon. Firgt, I recommended that the Pregident and the Vice President be added to the list Of Federal officer8 get out [n &ection 1114, tltle 18 of the U.S. Code which deal with aegaults which are punlghable under Federal Mw_ Mr. RANKIN. You would add to that I underetood trom your prior remarke, tbe Speaker and the President Pro Tempore? Mr: HoOvER In view O the eltuation whlch prerallg at the pregent tlme the 117 Ob, put bave day ================================================== Page 39 ================================================== 13-00000 Speaker and President pro tempore, in other words, the line of succession under the Constitution but not below that (Discussion off the record:) Mr. HOOVER Second; furnish the Secret Service authority to request assistance and cooperation from other U.S. agencies including the military, particularly in connection with foreign travel: Now, my reason for that is that sometimes requests for assistance have to clear through red-tape channels here aC Washington through some high officlal of Government: If an emergency arises abroad, or even in this country, it may be of such character that you do not have time to telephone back to Wash- ington or to telephone back to the Pentagon. Aid ought to be immediately available by calling on the local authorities and the nearest military authority. Third, improve control of tbe sale of firearms requiring 98 a minimum registration of every firearm sold together with adequate identification Of the purchaser: The problem of firearmg control is under exteusive debate, in both the House and Senate at the present time: The gun that Oswald used was bought by mail order from & mail-order house in Chicago, no licenge for it, no permit for it, no "checkup oOn it: The only way We were able to trace it was to.find out where in this country that Italian- made gun wag sold: We found the company in Chicago and later the mall- order slip that had: been sent by ` Oswald to Chicago to the gun Now, there are arguments, of course Mr: DOLLES: In a false name Mr. HoovEB: In 9 false name: There is argument, of course, that by passing frearms legislation you are going to take the privilege Of hunting away from the eportsmen of the country. I don't share that view with any great degree of sympathy because you have to get a license to drive an automobile and you have to 8 license to have a dog, and I see no reason why & man shouldn't be willing, if he is & law-abiding citizen, to have & license to get & frearm whether It be & rifle or revolver or other frearm: It 18 not golng to curtail hig exercise 0f shooting for sport because the.police make 9 check of his background If be is & man who 18 entitled to & gun, a lew-ablding citizen, 4 permit will be granted Of course, today frearms control i8 practically negligible, and I think gome steps should be taken along that Lne: Fourth, & ban on picketing within the vicinity 0f the White House &8 is now done at the U.S. Capitol and Supreme Court: Some of these pickets are , well- meaning and la w-abiding individuals, some are 'for peace and' gome are more or less dedicated Communists: Representative Boacg. It is illegal to picket a Federal court nOw, Mr: Director, Ibeppen to be the author Of that law. Mr. HoovER: Yes : I am glad you had that law passed Of course, they picket public buildings, they march around the Department 0f Justice Building, now and then, but the principal places they prefer to g0 are the Supreme Court Building, the Capitol and its grounds and the White House: I think such picketing at the White House, of large or small groups, should be ' forbidden: I think at the White House they tried to tbe pickets to walk across the street along Lafayette Park Tbat at least takes them away from being close to the gates at the White House: I think there ought to be some control: Picketing, of course, is legitimate if it is orderly. Many times it doesn't continue to be orderly, and sometimes pickets, a8 in this city, have thrown themselves on the pavement and the police have to come and pick them up Or drag them away. Then, of course, the charge is made of brutality right away. Delegations of colored groups have visited me and asked why I don't arrest a police oficer for hitting some Negro whom he is arresting in a sit-in strike, lay-in gtrike Or demonstration in some southern cities: We have no authority to make an arrest of that kind_ Under the authority the Bureau bas we bave to submit those complaints to the Department of Justice and if they authorize us to make an arrest we will do it: 118 get get get ================================================== Page 40 ================================================== 13-QQ000 bave the number 886 assigned to the memo that Mr: Hoover is going to send about: protection of tbe President, and bave it admitted to this record under that number: Tbe CHAIBMAN. Yes it may be: Representative FORD. Also a number for this letter Mr. Hoover is going to submit. Mr; RANKIN. May I assign 867? Tbe CEAIBMAN. Yes: (Commission Exbibit Nos. 866 and 867 were marked for identification . and received in evidence.) TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. McCONE AND RICHARD M HELMS HAY 14 9 64 The CHAIBMAN. The Commission wil be in order: Director McCone, it is customary for the Chairman to make a short state: ment to the witness as to the testimony that is expected to be given: I will read it at this time: Mr. McCone wil] be asked to testify 0n whether Lee Harvey Oswald was ever an agent, directly or indirectly, o an informer Or acting o behalf Of the Central Intelligence Agency In any capacity at any time, &nd wbether be knows Of any credible evidence or of any conspiracy either domestic Or foreign in- volved in tbe assassination of President Kennedy, also with regard to any ~X guggestions and recommendations he may bave concerning improrements or changes in provisions for the protection of the President of the United States Would you please rise and be sworn ? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, s0 help you God? Mr. McCONE I do: The CEAIBMAN_ WILL you be seated, please? Mr: Rankin will conduct the eramination: Mr_ RANKIN. Mr: McCone, will you state your name? Mr. McCONE: name is John Alex McCone: Mr RANKIN. Do you bave an oficial position with the U.S. Government? Mr. McCONE Yeg, sir; I am Director Of Central Intelligence Mr: RANKIN. Have you been Director for some time? Mr; McCONE Yes; @ little over 2%2 years Mr: RANKIN _ Where do you live, Mr; McCone? Mr. McCONE I llve at 3025 Whltehaven Street in Washington Mr, RANKIN . Are you familiar with the records and how they are kept by the Central Intelligence Agency &8 to whether a man is acting a8 a0 informer; agent, employee, Or in any other capacity for that Agency ? Mr. McCONE Yes; I am generally familiar witb tbe procedures and the records that are maintained by tbe Central Intelligence Agency. Quite nat- urally, I am not famlliar with all of the records because they are very extensive: Mr. RANKIN. Heve you 'determined whether Or not Lee Harvey Oswald, the suspect in connection with tbe assassination of President Kennedy, bad any connection with the Central Intelligence Agency, informer or indirectly a5 an employee, or any other capacity ? Mr. McCONE Yes; I have determined to my satisfaction that he had no such connection, and I would like to read for the record Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell u8 briedy the extent of your inquiry? Mr: McCONE In 4 form of affidavit; I have gone into the matter in consider- able detail personally, in my inquiry with the appropriate people within tbe Agency, examined all records in our files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald: We bad knowledge of him, of course, because of his having gone to tbe Soviet Union, 98 be did, putting him in 9 situation where his name would appear in our name fle: However, my examination bas resulted in the conclusion tbat Lee Harvey Oswald was not an agent, employee; or informant of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Agency never contacted bim, interviewed him, talked with him, Or received or solicited any reports or information from him, 0r COm- municated with him directly or in aoy other manner. The Agency never fur- 120 My ================================================== Page 41 ================================================== 13-00000 nished him with any funds or money or compensated him directly or indirectly In any fashion, and Lee Harvey Oswald was never associated or connected directly or indirectly in any way whatsoever with tbe Agency. When I use tbe term "Agency,' I mean the Central Intelligence Agency, of course_ Representative FoRD. Does that include whether or not he was in the (Jnited States, in the Soviet Union, or anyplace? Mr. McCONE: Anyplace the United Sta Soviet Union, or anyplace Mr_ RANKIN_ Mr. McCone, is that the afidavit you are going to supply the Commission in connection with our request for it? Mr. McCONE: Yes ; this is the substance of the aflidarit which I will supply to you: Mr: RANKIN. Mr: Chairman, I ask leave to mark that Exhibit 870 and have It introduced in evidence &8 soon 48 we receive it from Mr. McCone as 9 part of thig record The CHAIRMAN_ It may be admitted: (Commission Exhibit No. 870 was marked for identification and receired in eridence: ) Mr: RANKIN_ Would you tell us about your procedures in regard to having an agent Or informer O any person acting In that type of capacity? Does that bavee to pass through your hands O come to your attention in the Agency? Mr: McCONE; No it does not have to come through my personal hands. Mr: RANKIN. Without disclosing something that might be a security matter, could you tell us how that Is handled in a general way in the Agency? 0 Mr: McCoNE: Mr. Helms, who is directly responsible for that division of the Agency's activities a8 a Deputy' Director, might explain. Would tbat be permissible? Mr; RANKIN. Could we bave him sworn tben ? The CHAIRMAN_ Yes: The CEAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn: Do you golemnly swear the testimony You are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but tbe truth, SO help Fou God ? Mr. HELMe: ' I do: Mr. RANKIN. Mr: Helmg, you heard the Inquiry Just directed to Mr. McCone: Could you answer the question directly ? Mr; HELM8. Yes we have 9 specifc procedure which we follow in all cages where the Agency is in contact, for the purposes of acquiring intelligence Or whatever the case may be, with an individual We not Only bare a record of tbe individual'8 name, but we also usually information of a biographical nature: We then check this indivldual's name against our record At tbat point we make a determination a8 to whether we desire to use this man Or not to use him: It varies from case to case a8 to how many Officers may be involved in approving a specific recrultment May [ g0 0f the record? (Discussion 0f the record:) Mr: RANKIN. Mr_ Helms, did you have anything to do on behalf of your Agency with determining whether Or not Lee Harvey Oswald was acting In any of the capacities I bave described in my questions to Mr: McCone? Mr: HELM8. Yes I did: Mr: RANKIN_ Will you tell us what you did in that regard? Mr: HELM8. On Mr: McCone'8 bebalf; I bad all of our records searched to gee if there had been any contacts at any time prior to President Kennedy's assassi- nation by anyone in the Central Intelligence Agency with Lee Harvey Oswald: We checked our card' files and our personnel fles and all our records Now, this check turned out to be negative: In addition I got in touch witb those oficerg who were in positions of responsibility at the times in question to see if anybody had any recollection of any contact baving eren been sug- gested with this man: This also turned out to be negative, so there is no ma- terial in the Central Intelligence Agency, either in the records or in the mind of any of the individuals, that there was any contact bad or even contemplated with him: 121 tes; get ================================================== Page 42 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr. RANKIN . Mr. Helms Mr: DULLES_ Could I ask one question there? Do you recall. Or do you know at what time the name of Lee Harvey Oswald was carded, first came to your attention so it became a matter of record, in the Agency ? Mr: HELM8. Sir; I would want to consult the record to be absolutely accurate, but it is my impression that the first time that his name showed up on any Agency records was when he went to the Soviet Union: Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Helms, in connection with your work you bave supplied information to the Commission and we have requested many things from yonr Agency. Can you tell the Commission a8 to whether or not you have-supplied u8 all the information the Agency has, at least In substance, in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr: HELM8. We have all. Representative FoRD. Has a member Of the Commission staf had full accesg to your files on Lee Harvey Oswald?, Mr: HELMS. He bas, sir: Representative FoRD They hare had the opportunity to personally look at the entire file? Mr. HELM8. We invited them to come out to Our building in Langley and ac tually the fle on the table %0 that they could examine It. The CEAIRMAN. I was personally out there, too, and was offered the same Op- portunity. I did not avail myself of it because Of the time element, but I wa8 offered the same opportunity. Mc: RANKIN. Mr. Helms, can you explain, according to. the limitations of security; the reasons why we eramined materials but did not always take them, in & general way? Mr: HELMB. Yes ; I can. In our 'communications between individuals working overseas and in Wash- ington, we for security reasons have & method 0f hiding the Identities of indivia- uals in telegrams and dispatches by the use of pseudonyms and cryptonymg: For this reaeon we never allow the original documents to leave our premises How- ever, On the occasion when the representatives of the Commission staf looked at these fles, we sat there and identifed these pseudonyms and cryptonym8 and related them to the proper names of the individuals concerned s0 that they would know exactly what the correspondence said Mr: RANKIN. By that you mean the representatives of the Commisslon were able to gatisfy themselves that they had all Of the information for the beneft of the Commission without disclosing matters that would be & threat to security ts that right? Mr HELM8. It is my understanding that they were satisfed. Representative FoRD: Mr: McCone . do you have full authority from higher autbority to make full disclosure to this Commission of any information In the fles of the Central Intelligence Agency ? Mr: McCONE That is right: It i8 my understanding that it is the desire of higher authority that this Commission shall have access to all information of every nature in our fles O in the minds of employees of Central Intelligence Agency. Representative FoRD. On the basis 0f that authority, you or the Agency have made a full disclosure ? Mr: McCONE. That is correct; Mr: RANKIN. Mr. Helms, I bave handed you Exhibits 88 and 89 directed to you acting for the Agency, the frst one being from the Commission to you and the second one, 869, being your answer in regard to your full and complete disclosure in regard to your records ; isn't that correct? Mc: HELM8. That is correct. May I say, Mr. Rankin, that any information, though, subsequent to this correspondence which we may obtain we will cer- tainly continue to forward to the Commission: Mr. RANKIN. Thank you: Mr. Chief Justice, I ask leave to have those two exhibits, 868 and 889, received in evidence at this time: The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers 122 put ================================================== Page 43 ================================================== 13-00000 (Commission Exhibits Nos 88 and 869 were marked for identifcation and received in evidence: ) Mr: RANKIN . Mr McCone, if I may return to you, I will now ask you if you have any credible information that you know of or eridence causing you to believe that there is any or was any conspiracy either domestic or foreign in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr: McCoNE: I have no information, Mr: Rankin, that would lead me to believe or conclude that & conspiracy existed. Representative FoRD. Did the CIA make an investigation of this aspect of the assassination ? Mr: McCONE: We made an investigation of all developments after the assa8- Sination which came to our attention which might possibly bave indicated 2 conspiracy , and we determined after thbese investigations, which were made promptly and immediately, that we had no evidence to support such a0 assumption: Representative FORD. Did the Central Intelligence Agency bave any contact with Oswald during the period of his life in the Soviet Union? Mc: McCONE: No; not to.my knowledge, nor to the knowledge of those who would bave been in & position to have made such contact, nor according to any record we bave: Representative FoRD. Did the Central Intelligence_Agency bave any personal contact with Oswald subsequent to his return to the United States? Mr; McCONE: No: Mr: RANKIN. Mr: McCone, your Agency made 8 particular Investigation Ln connection with any allegations about & conspiracy invol= tbe Soviet Unlon Or connected with Cuba, did you not? Mr: MCCONE: we did: We made & thorough; & very thorough, Investigation: of information that came to us concerning an alleged trip that Oswald made to Mexico City during which time he made contact with the Cuban . Embagsy ` in Mexico Oity in an attempt to gain transit privileges from Mexico City to the Soviet Union via Havana: We investigated that tboroughly Mr: RANKIN . Do you also include in your statement that you found no evidence of conspiracy in all of that investlgation? Mr: McCONE: That is correct. Mr: RANKIN: And also the investigation you made of the period that Lee Harvey Oswald wa8 In the Soviet Union ? Mr: MoCONE: That is right Mr: RANKIN. Mr: McCone Mr: DOLLEB. Could I ask one guestion there? Does your answer; Mr: McCone; include 9 negation of any belief that Oswald wag working for Or on behalf Of the Soviet Union at any time when you were in contact with him or knew about hig activities ? Mr: MCCONE: As I have already stated, we were never in contact with Oswald: We have no evidence that he was working for or On behalf of the Soviet, Unton at any time According to 'his diary, Oswald did receive 9_ subsidy from the Soviet Red Cross which we assume had the approval of the authorities: Such 8 payment does not indicate to us that he even worked for the Soviet intelli- gence services Furthermore, we bave no other evidence that he ever worked for Soviet intelligence. Representative FoRD. Is the Central Intelligence Agency continuing any investigation into this area ? Mr. McCONE No, because, at the present time; we bave no information in our files that we have not exhaustively investigated and disposed of to our satis- faction: Naturally , any new information that might come into our bands would be investigated promptly: Mr. HELM8. I simply wanted to add that we obviously are interested in any- thing we can pick up applying to this case, and anything we get will be immedf- ately sent to the Commission, s0 that we baven't stopped our inquiries or tbe picking up of any information we can from people who might bave it: This is On 9 continuing basis Representatire FoRD. In other words, the case isn't closed. Mr. HELMS. It is not closed a8 far as we are concerned: 123 No ; ving people Yes, ================================================== Page 44 ================================================== 13Q0000 Mr: RANKIN. Would that be true, Mr. Helms, even after the Commission completed its report, you would keep the matter open if there was anything new that developed in the future tbat could be . properly presented to tbe authorities ? Mr. HELMB. Yes: I would assume the case will never be closed_ Mr: RANKIN. Mr: McCone, do you have any ideas about improving the security provisions for the President that would like to relate to the Commission ? Mr: MCCONE: Well, this is, in my opinion, 9 very important question which I- am sure this Commission will-_has and will derote a considerable amount Of thought and undoubtedly have some recommendations 98.part of its report. Mr: RANKIN. Your Agency does have an important function in some aspects Mr: McCONE: We' have a very important function in connection with the foreign travels of the President, and I would like to inform the Commission a8 to bow we discharge that responsibility by quickly reviewing the chronology of tbe Central Intelligence Agency's support of President Kennedy'8 visit to Mexico City from the 29th of June to the 2d of July 1962. Mr: RANKIN_ Will you please do that: The CEAIRMAN. Director; ig that a security matter? Mr: McCONE: No. I think I can handle this for the record: The CHAIBMAN. Very well. Mc: McCONE If I have to make @ remark Or two 0f the record I will ask that privilege: That visit, as I said, started On the 29th of June: On the 28th of April, in anticipation of the visit, instructions were transmitted to Mexico for the Ambassador to coordinate planning and informational guidance for the advance party of the Secret Service: We asked that the Secret Service be giren information on local groups and persong who would cause disturbances, embarrassments Or physical harm, an estimate of the determination and ability of the Mexican government to prevent incidents, and preparation for special briefings to the Embassy officials and the Secret Service, and such additional support and communications personnel that might be required: These instructions were given two months before the trip: On tbe I5th of May, we received confirmed information that the President would visit Mexico on the specific dates: On the Ist of June the Secret Service wag supplied by the Agency with the detailed survey of Mexican gecurity forces that would be called upon to protect the President; Friendly and allied governments were informed of the visit and their coopera- tion and pertinent informational support was solicited. From this date through the 2d of July daily information reports were furnished to the State Department, the Secret Service, the FBI and the military services: That is from the Ist of June to the 2d of July, &' period of 31, 82 days On the 8th of June the Secret Service advance party was briefed in deteil by a group of officers of the Agency on tbe Mexican government's plans for the protection. of the President; including current information on the size, strength and capabilities of potential troub emakers: Hazardous locations and times in the planned itinerary were identifed, political and economic issues that might be invoked by hostile elements for demonstrations were specifed: On the Ilth of June, the Secret Service advance party left for Mexico gup ported by additional security personnel to assist in coordinating an informational report and the followup activity required. Especially prepared national intelligence estimates on the current security conditions in Mexico wa8 approved by the United States . Intellgence Board on the 13th of June: On the I5th of June arrangements were completed to reenforce communica- tions facilities: On the 24th of June & conference at the State Department wag held at the request of the President for reviewing security measures, and this meeting I attended personally, and reported to the State Department 0n the essence of all that had: gone before: Emergency contingency plans were discussed and & consensus was reached that the President should make the visit &8 scheduled: 124 you to, ================================================== Page 45 ================================================== 13-00000 On the 27th of June, a fnal updated special national intelligence estimate was prepared, and this indicated no basic changes in the security assessment that Mexican government was prepared to cope with foreseeable security contingencies On the 28th of June, a final briefing report was prepared for the Director8 use which indicated the security precautions of the Mexican government had effectively forestalled major organized incidents, and our informed estimate was that tbe President would receive & great welcome: Tbe report was presented to the President personally by the Director at noon in & fnal meeting prior to departure on this trip: From the 29th of June to the 2d of July in Washington headquarters, head- quarters components remained on a 24-hour alert for close support of the embassy and the Secret Service. So, not oly was the Central Intelligence Agency and its various components involved in this for 4 period of 2 monthg in close collaboration with the Secret Service, but by bringing in the United States Intelligence Board we brought in all of the intelligence assets of the United States Government in connection with this particular trip: 4 thought this procedure which is followed regularly on all tripg that the Pregident 'makes out of the country would be of interest to the Commission: The CHAIBMAN. That is tbe normal forat of your procedures? Mr: MCCONE Yes: The CHAIRMAN . When the President goes abrbad? Mr: MCCONE Yes, I gelected tbis one. The same was true of his trip to Caracas or Paris Or elsewhere: Mr: RANKIN . Mr: McCone, in your Investigation of the Oswald matter did You use tbe same' approach or a comparable approach to 9 liaison with the other intelligence agencies of government to try to discover anything that might involve your Jurisdiction Mr: MCCONE Yeg: We were in very close touch with the Federal Bureau of Investigation and with the Secret Service on 9 24-hour basis at all points, both domestic. and foreign, where information had been received which might have & bearing on this problem. Mr: RANKIN. Agsagsination ? Mr. MCCONE Assassination. Mr: RANKIN: Do you: have an opinion, Mr. McCone, as to whether Or not the liaison between the intelligence agencies of the United States Government might be improved if they had better mechanical, computer O other facilities of that type, and also some other ideas Or methods of dealing with each other? Mr: McCONE There is & great deal Of improvement of information that might be 0f Importance in 9 matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical means Of. handling flles, and you, Mr: Ohief Justice, Saw sonle Of our installations and that was only a begdnning of what really can be done: The CEAIBMAN. Yes; I dd Mr: MCCONE: I would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved in this. area adopt the most modern methodds of automatic data processing with respect to the personnel fles and other files relating to Indi- viduals: . This would be helpful. But I emphasize that a computer will not replace-the man, and therefore, We must have at all levels 9 complete exchange of information and cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that the Central Intelligence Agency tries to afford both the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in matters where we have a common respon- gibillty. I would like to emphasize the very great importance 0f this exchange, which is not always easily accomplished because it is cumbersome: Sometimes it becomes involved in distracting people from other duties, and SO on and s0 forth: I have given a good deal of thought to the matter of some incentives to bring out informers, thinking about the old informer statutes in which some of them are still on the books, in which people were rewarded for: informing when others conducted themselves in 2 damaging way. 125 ================================================== Page 46 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr: DULLEB. Smuggling cases? Mr: McCoNE Smuggling cases But I believe that something could be done: I call to the attention of thig Commission one of the laws relating to atomlc energy, namely the Atomic Weapons Reward Act Of 15 July 1955 whereln a substantial reward is offered for the apprehension of persons responsible for the clandestine introduction or manufacture in the United States of such nuclear material or atomic weapons It is suggested that the Commission may wish to recommend that original but similar legislation be enacted which would induce individuals to furnish information bearing o Presidential security by . Offering 9 substantial reward and preferential treatment Subgtantial reward could represent a gignificant Inducement even to officerg.and pergonnel of gecret agsociations and state security organg abroad who are charged with agsassina- tion and sabotage We have information that guch personnel and pollce gtate apparatuses have expressed and, in certain caseB, acted upon their repugnance for such work and for the political gystem which requires buch dutles to be performed Mr-RANKIN. Is it: your belief; Mr: McCone;, that the methods for exchange of information between intelligence agencies of the dovernment could be mate rially improved: Mr: McCONE I think the exchange between the Central Intelllgence Agency and the Federal Bureau Of Investigation or the Secret Service is qulte adequate: I am not informed a8 to whether the 'exchanges between the Secret Service and the FBI are equally adequate: I have not gone into that I would have no meang to know. Certalnly It is most important that it be done: Mr: DLLEB: Looking back nOw that yOU bave the full record, do you feel that you received from the State Department adequate information.at the time tbat they were aware of Oswald'& defection and later activities in the Sovlet' Unlon, did you at the ttme full information from the State Department on those particular subjects? Mr. MCCONE Wel I am not sure that we got full information, Mr: Dulles: The fact i8 we had very Uittle information in our fleg: Mr. HELue. It wag probably mlnimal Representative FoBD Why did that happen ? Mr: Ebxe. I am not gure; Mc: Ford . I can only assue tbat the State Department bad a limlted amount Interestingly enough, it Is far enough back now 80 that It8 very hard to fnd people who were In the Moscow Embagsy at the time familiar with the case, 80 in trying to run this down one comes to 8 lot of dead ends and I, therefore, would not like to hazard any guess.' Representative' FOBD: Whose responsibility I8 it; is it CIA's responsibility to obtain the information, Or State Department'&- responsibility to supply it to Central Intelligence &nd to others: Mr_ McCONE With respect to a U.S: citizen who goes abroad, it Is the respon- sibility of the State Department through Its various echelons, congular gervice and embassies and 80 forth For & foreigner comlng into the United States, who might be of gusplcioug character, coming here for espionage; gubvergion, assassination and other acts Of violence, we would;' and we d0 exchange thlg information Immedlately wlth the FBI: Representative FOBD: But in thig particular cage, Oswald in the Soviet Union, whase responsibility was it to transmit the information; whatever It wag. to the Central Intelligence Agency? Mr: MOCONE; Well, it would be the State Department's ' responsibility to do that; Whether there really exists &n order or orders that information on an American citizen returning from a forelgn country be transmitted to CIA, I don't believe there are guch regulationg which exist Mr: HELMB: I don't beliere they d0, either: Mr: McCoNE I am not sure they ghould: Representative FORD. It wouldn't be your recommendation that you, the head of Central Intelligence Agency, should have that information ? Mr: DULLEB. In a case of an American defecting to 8 Communlst country, ghouldn't you bave It? Mr. McCONE Certainly certain types of information: What we ought to be 126 staf get ================================================== Page 47 ================================================== 13-00000 careful of here, would be to rather clearly define the type of information which should be transmitted, because after all, there are hundreds of thousands Or milliong. of Americang going back and forth every year, and those records are the records f the Immigration Service, the Passport Division: Mr: DOLIEB. I was thinking of 9 person who having defected might, of course, bave become an agent and then reinserted into the United States and if you were informed of the frst steps to that you might help to prevent the second step: Mr: McCONE. Well, certainly information on defectors or possible recruitments ghould be and I bave no question is being, trangmitted. Representative FORD. What I was getting at was whether the procedures were adequate or inadequate, whether the administration was proper Or improper In thig partlcular case, and if some files you have that started when he attempted to defect are inadequate why we ought to know, and we ought to know whether the basic regulations were right or wrong, whether tbe adminigtration was proper Or improper, that i8 what I am trying to find out. I would like your comment 0n it. Mr. McCONE Well, I think tbe basic regulations should be examined very carefully to be sure that they are copper-riveted down and absolutely tight: What I am saying, however, Ig because of the vast number of Americang who g0 abroad and gtay In forelgn countries for indefnite periods of time, it would be a impossible task to transmlt all information avallable in the State De partment and Immigration Service &8 fleg to the Central Intelligence. Agency_ 7o613; It wonld not be & productive exerciee: What must be transmitted and is being trangmitted, wbile I cannot recite the exact regulations i9 information tbat i8, becomes, kow to the varioug embagsies of suspicious Americans that might have been recruited and defected, and then returned g0 that they would be agents in place: Representative FORD: In this cage, Oswald attempted to defect, he did not, he gubsequently sought the right to return to the United States, he bad contact with the Embassy. Was the Central Intelligence Agency informed of these steps, step by etep, by the Department of State? Mr: MCCONB You might answer that: Mr: HELue: Mr: Ford, in order to answer this question precisely I would have to have the fle In front of me I have not looked at It In gome time 80 I don't have It all that clearly in mind: But it is my impression that we were not informed step by gtep: When I gay that there i8 no requirement that I am aware Of that the State Department ghould inform us and when I gald a moment ag0 that we had mlnimal information from them, this was not in any gense 4 critical comment but 9 gtatement Of fact. But an American going to the American Embassy would be handled by the Embassy oficials, either consular O1 otherwise: This would be a matter well within the purview Of the State Department to keep all the way through, because we do not have responsibility in the Central Intelligence Agency for tbe conduct or behavior or anything else of American citizens when they are abroad unless there is wome special consideration applying to an individual, or gomeone in higher . authority requests assistance from u8 So that the State Department, I think, quite properly would regard this matter a8 well within their purview to handle themselves within the Embassy or from the Embassy back.to the Department of State without involving the Agency in it while these events were occurring: Representative FoRD: I think it could be argued, however, that the unique ness Of thig individual case wa8 such that the Department of State might well have contacted the Central Intelligence Agency to keep them abreast of the developments as they transpired. This is not and when I gay this, I mean the Oswald case ~ig not an ordinary run-Of-the-mill-type 0f case. It i8 far from it: Even back_in the time, well, from the time he went, and particularly a9 time progressed, and he made application to return, there is nothing ordinary about the whole situation: Mr: McCONE That is quite correct ; there i8 no question about that: Representative FORD. And I am oly suggesting that if tbe regulutions were not adequate at the time and are not now, maybe something ought to be done about it: 127 ================================================== Page 48 ================================================== 13-00000 Mr. RANKIN Mr: McCone, when you gaid that gupplying all of the inforination about U.S. citizens who went abroad and came back to the country would not be 9 profitable exercise, did tbat comnent include the tbought that such an intrusion upon all citizens would be questionable? Mr: McCONE: Such an intrusion ? Mr: RANKIN. Upon their right to travel: Mr: McCONE: Well, I think this would have & bearing on it. I did not have that particular matter in mind when I made that gtatement, bowever: I was Just thinking Of the Mr: RANKIN. Burden? Mr: McCONE: Of the burden O vagt numbers involved: Mr: RANKIN. Do you have any thought In regard to whether it would be an intrugion upon their rights? Mr: McCONE Well that would be & matter of how it was handled: Certainly , if it wag handled in a way that the counterpart 0f providing: the information wag to impose restrictiong on tbem, then it would be an intrusion On their righte. Mr: RANEIN . Yes Senator COOPER May I inquire? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper: Senator COOPER I migsed the frgt part Of Mr: McCone'8 testimony = I went t0 angwer a quorum call Perhapa the question bas been agked. 3v+7} It bas been brought into evidence that & number Of people in tbe Embagsy talked to Oswald when he frst defected, and the various communications wlth the Embagsy and, of cour8e, when he left to come back' to the Onited States Have we been able to axcertain the names of oficials In the Embassy Or em- ployees with whom Oswald talked on these varioug occasions ? Mr: McCONE I am not famillar with them ; nO. Mr: HuM8: Neither am I, gr Mr: MCCONE; I presume that the Department'8 inquiries have covered it Senator COOPER Is it possible to agcertain the names Of those employees? Mr: RANKIN. Senator Cooper; I can . answer tbat: We have inquired Of the State Department for thet Informatlon, and are In the process of obtalning it all. Senator CooPER Taklng into consideration your answers to the previous ques- tion, would 1t have been passlble in your Judgment to have secured more com- prehensive: Intornation about the activitieg Of Ogwald In Rugsia ? Mr: MCCONE It would not have been possible for the Central Intelligence Agency to have secured such information because we do not bave the resources to gain such information The CEAIBMAN: Anything more? Congressman Ford? Representative FRD. Did the Central Intelllgence Agency investigate any aspects of Oswald'8 trip to Merico? Mr: McCoNE. Yes ; we did: Representative FORD. Can you give u8 any inforation On that ? Mr: MCCONE: Yes ; we were aware tbat Ogwald did make 9 trip to Mexico City and it was our Judgment that be 5a8 there in the intereat of inguring transit privileges and tbat be made contact with tbe Cuban Embassy while be wag there: We do not know the precige results o blg effort, but we assumed, because he returned to tbe UOnited States, he 598 unguccessful We bave examined to every extent we can and using all resourceg available to u8 every aspect , O bis activity and we could not verity that he wa8 there any other purpOS0 or tbat his trip to Merico wag in any way related to bis later action In assassinat- President Kennedy. Representative FORD. Did the Centrel Intelligence make any investi- gation O any alleged connection between Oswald and the Castro government ? Mr: McCONE: Yes we investigated that in considerable detail, because infor- mation came to us through & third perty that he had carried On 9 rather odd discussion witb Cuban oficlalg in tbe Cuban Embassy in Merico City. The allegation was that he bad received under rather odd circumstances 9 substantial amount Of money in the Cuban Embaesy, and the gtatement wa8 made by one who claimed to have geen thie trangactlon take place: After a very thorough 128 for ing Agency_ ================================================== Page 49 ================================================== 13-00000 and detatled examination of the informer, it flnally turned out by the informer's own admission that the information was entlrely erroneous, and was made for the purpose Of advancing the informer's Own standing with 'the Central Intelli- gence Agency and the U.S. Government and it was subsequently retracted by the Informer In Its entirety. Representative FOBD: Wag there any other evidence Or alleged evidence Mr: McCONE:' Parenthetically, I might add & word for the record that the date that the Informer gave as to the date in time of this alleged transaction was impossible because through other, from other, Informatlon we determined that Oswald wag in the United States at that partlcular time Representative FoBD. Did the Central Intelllgence Agency ever make an investigation or did It ever check on Mr: Ruby'g trip to Cuba or any connections be might have had with the Cagtro government? Mr: McCONE; Not to my knowledge Mr: HELMB: We had no Information:, Mr: MOCONE: We had no informatlon: Representative FoRD Central Intelllgence Agency hag no information of any connections of Ruby to the Castro government? Mr: McCONE That i8 right. Representative FoRD: Did you ever make & check of that? Mr: EBLM8. We checked our records to see If we bad Information and found we did not Repregentative FORD. What would that Indicate; the fact that you checked your records? Mr: HeLx8. That would indicate that ff we had received information from our own resources, that the Cubang were involved with Mr: Ruby in somethlng whlch would be regarded 48 subvergive, we would then have it In our fles: But we received no guch Informatlon, and I don', by gaying thig, mean that he did not I smply gay we don't have any record of this: Representatlve FORD: Tbat 8 alL The CEAIBMAN. Dlrector; thank you very much, 8r, for comlng and belng with u8 and we eppreclate the help your department has given to us. Whereupon, at 12:30 pm- the President'8 Commlssion recegsed ) Thursday; June 4, 1964 TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY, LEO J GAUTHIER LYNDAL La SHANEYFELT, AND ROBERT A FRAZIER The President'& Commission met at 2:10 p.m:, on June 4 1964, at 200 Mery- land Avenue NE , Washington, DO: Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman ; Senator John Sherman Cooper; Representative Gerald R. Ford Allen W. Dulles, and John J. McOloy, memberg Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel ; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel ; Arlen Specter;, assistant counsel Waggoner CarT, attorney general of Texag ; and Charles Murray, observer: TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY (Memberg present at this point : The Chairman, Representative Ford, Mr. Dulles, and Mr: McCloy: ) Mr: SPECTER: Mr: Chief Justice, we have witnesses today who are Thomas J. Kelley of the Secret Service; Leo J. Gauthier, Lyndal L Shaneyfelt, and Robert AS Frazer of the FBI They are going to testify concerning certain 129 ================================================== Page 50 ================================================== 13-00000 Janes J Rowley Cutef SECrET frrvite 0 TJnE 181|9 6h Mc. RowLEY. I think there are certain thlngg that you have to allow the man who ig operating &9 9 politician, and not a8 head of state: I mean this makes 4 difference In your operation. Mr: RANKIN. Chlef' Rowley, did ou give us 8 report of the actlvities in prO- tecting the President at and around Parkland Hospital? Mr: RowLEY. Yeg, 8ir: Mr: RANKIN . And is that Commisgion Exhibit No. 1026? Mr: RowLEY _ glr: (The document referred to wag marked Commlssion Exhiblt No. 1026 for Identifcation:) Mr: RANKIN. Mr: 'Chalrman, I offer In evldence Commiegion Exblblt No. 1028: The CEATBMAN: It may be admltted: (The document beretofore marked for identificatlon as Commisslon Exhlbit No. 1026, wa8 recelved in evidence: ) Mr; RANKIN. Do you heve any additlong Or correctlons you care to make In that exhiblt? Mr: RowLEY: No, 8lr: Mr: RANKIN.. Chlef Rowley, dld you glve u8 & report about protectIve actIvlty subsequent to Dallas on behalf of the Secret Service? Mr: ROwLEY. Ye8, *r: Mr: RANKIN: I wlll band you Commigsion Exhiblt No. 1027 and a8k you If thet 18 the report that you have just referred to. (The document referred to wa8 marked Commiesion Exhlbit No. 1027 for Identlication:) Mr: RowLEY . Yes, sir: Mr: RANKIN. Chlef Rowley, I ask you, are there problemg wlth regard to Commission Exhlbit No..1027 concerning security, and whether that ghould-be that document ehould be made publlc? You Just take vonr tlme If you want to glance over It. Mr: ROwLEY. No; 88 I read It, It is general enough, sir; that It can be Included: (At thls polnt, Mr: Dulles entered the hearing room. Mc: RANKIN_ Mr: Cbairman, I ofer In evidence Commisgion Exhlblt No. 1027. The C=ATBMAN. It may be admitted: (The document heretofore marked for Identlication a8 Commleslon Exhlbit No. 1027, wa8 recelved In evidence: ) (At thls polnt; Representatlve Boggg entered the hearing roOm. ) Mr. RANKIN_ Are there any of the varlous answers that you glve In the an- swers to the questlons attached to Commission Exhiblt No. 1027 tbat care to elaborate on atthle time? I am not asklng or urging you to do it, because I assume that you anwered tbem with care at the time: I just wanted to give you that opportunlty. Mr: RowLEY . ot at thls time: Mr. DOLLE8. May I ask a question there? You consider that the criteria a8 now furnlshed by you to the FBI and other investigative agencieg would cover & cage Uke Oswald'8? Mr_ ROwLEY . Yes, 8lr: Mr. DULLE8. You thlnk they would? Mr: ROwLEY . Yes, 8lr: Mr. DOLLES. You thipk they underetand that? Mr_ RowLer. Well, a8 we 8tated In the: covering letter when we 8ent thls out__we haven't gotten any reaction - we asked tor their cooperation and gug- gestiong In connectlon with such guidelines: Mr: DULLE8 Defectors are not specifically covered, are they, by your criterla ? Mr: RowLEY. Well, they are given to us now. CWe are being furnished 'the names 0f defectors; and they are investigated, so that their background and history will be furnished to US, and, we will be in a' position now to determlne whether they represent a rigk or not. Mr: RANKIN_ Chief Rowley Representative Boccs May I ask & question there? Would you have any notion a8' to why names of defectors were not provided to you prior to November 222 Mr: RowLEY. Yes; under the broad picture, Mr. Congressman, there was mo 471 Yes, any you you No; being ================================================== Page 51 ================================================== 13-00000 Indication that they bad made any threat toward the President Or member8 Of big family. Whenever there was 8 threat made, we were furnished promptly by the different agencies the informatlon 0n the individual'g name And this wag done in voluminous reports by the FBI, and the other agencles: When they got any information, they would notify the local ofice, notify their liaison, wbo notifed uS by telephone, and confrmed by memorandum: The game obtained with respect to the CIA Representative Boacg: Thls fellow wag interviewed by the FBI several times _ be was Interviewed In New Orleang when he allegedly bad his Fair Play Com- mittee: If my memory gerves me correctly, Mrg. Palne wag intervlewed about hlm ghortly before the viglt Of the Pregldent, after he bad gone to work at the Texas School Book Depository I agree that there had been no indicetlon Of a threat On the President'8 Ilfe. But, obvlously be was a pereon in the FBI files who wa8 under sme degree Of gurveillance: It would seem to me gtrange that the FBI did not trangmlt thg Information to the Secret Servlce: Mr; ROwLEY. The FBI, Mr: Congressman, are concerned wlth Internal gecurity- And I think their approach wag Internal security &9 It related to this individual, whether Or not he was 8 potential recrult for esplonage; Intelligence, Or bome thlng like that: Thelr concern was talking to hlm In thle vein, in the courge Of whlch there wa8 no indicatlon tbat he bore any mallce toward anyone, and partlcularly to the Pregident 0f the United States: If someone gald that Henry Smith ddnt 78p like the Presldent, and we got hlg fle, we would to the polnt where .you ba ve 3 mlllon names In the fle: How efective are you going to be then? Repregentative Boaag: Well, that Is rlght. Mr:.RowLEY . And then you In the area Of civil rights and all If you 8tart going Into Individuals Representatlve Boaag And If I remember correctly, there hbag never been we have bad no testimony from anyone that Ogwald ever threatened the Pregl- dent of the United States: Ig that correct ? Mr: RANKIN. Tbat fg cOrrect; Representatlve Boace: That wag the oly quegtion I had. Mr: DOLLES. Along that Iine, I Just ralse the question &8.to whether maybe too much emphasle Is not the threat angle, because a clever fellow, If he 18 golng to. agsasgiate the Pregldent, the last thlng he Is golng to do Is go around and talk about 1t and threaten It Mr: ROwLEY. Thet 1s rgbt Wel thls ba8 been 80 wth lonerg, too. 4g you 8y, you read the aesagsknatlons: Some of them Just kept to them- selves, and traveled, and the nert thlng know they confronted thelr vctim: Sometimes they were guccessful other tlmeg they were not Mr. DOLIE8 . I recognlze the dlfculty of working out adequate criteria. But I just thlnk you ought to do gme more geeking, and there Is more work to be done on that: Mr: ROwLEY. Yeg, sr: Senator COOPBR May I a8k thle quegtlon It hagn't been clear to me: I8 It correct that now a defector does come withln the scope of your Service? Mr; ROwLEY. Yes, 8ir we are furnished the names Of defectors by the FBI: And they investigate these people: And then In their report, if It 8howg that the Individual hag emotional Instabluity O propensity for violence, we pick It up from there: But all the reports on' the known defectors in this country are gubmitted to u8, and then we evaluate from the case history Of the report whether or not be would be a risk for u8 subject to Investlgation: Senator COOPER' I uderstood that wag the procedure before: But my ques- tlon 10 now, Ig the defector per ge classed 88 one of those against whom you would take protective meagures? Mr: RowLEY No, no, slr not unlegg we had Senator CooPER. Since the aggassinatlon ? Mr: RowLEY . Not unlegg we bad thege three categories Of factorg we Just enunciated. Senator COOPER I would guggest_fret, I understand there are not many de- fectorg who have returned to the United States: Secondly, It geemg to me & man who hag defected from the United States to 472 get get put on you ================================================== Page 52 ================================================== 13-QQ000 ga to Russia Or 8 Communist country indicates that he bas pretty strong con- victiong against the United States, or else there i< something questionable about his mental processes: I would think that fact alone would make It important to watch his activities when he came back: Mr. ROwLEY. It would. And I think the FBI properly conducts thbe inveg- tigationg,' from the standpoint of internal security, and furnishes us a report: And then if there is something in the report that indicates be could be 4 rlsk to the Pregident or the Vice President, we could take it from there Representative Booe. Mr: Rankin; I have to go to a meeting in 2 0r ? minutes Tbere Ig:jugt one questlon I would Ilke to agk before leaving: Is It not a fact that probably the greatest deterrent that you have ig the very fact that the publlc knows that there Ig & Secret Service? Mr. RowLEY. Yes, gr: Representative Boqag. That you do guard .the life of the President: And that the chances of an assassin escaping with bis own life are pretty remote: So this psychological weapon is one 0f the things yOu rely on? Mr: RowLEY . That 1g correct: Repregentative Boda8: And You must necessarily keep a degree of secrecy about the methods you employ_ Mr: RowLEY. Yeg, slr; otherwise they could develop countermethods, to thwart anything we mlght set up. Representative Boaa8. Exactly. Thank you very much: Mr: RANKIN. Chlef Rowley, do you 'In the Secret Service obtain the benedt of cooperation wfth other governmental agencles In the protection of the President ? Mr: RowLEY. We recelve cooperation from every agency. If I may name 9 few ~we were- scheduled to vsit Puerto Rico in 1948 or 1947_I am not quite certaln-_with President Truman, who was then vacatloning at Key West: We bad no ofice in Puerto Rico at the tlme. We dld not know the situation other than that It 'could be stlcky .because of the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico: (At this polnt, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room:) Mr: ROwLEY . Our advance 'man called me and asked me if I would not talk to Mr: Hoover to see whether Or. not we could bave the assistance of gome of their agents who were dow there In an . Ofce established there. And I COm- munlcated then 'with the Assletant Director, who said, "I WIll get back to you" and got the approval That wag an: example of the beglnning of the cooperation, when I wag at the White House; with the FBI Now, In the yearg subsequent to World War II, anytime we were abroad, I made personal contact wlth Mr. Dulles, and I think for national security we should go of' the record o 'thls, because this 1s something that pertains today. (Discussion of the record:) The CHAIBMAN. Back on the record: Mr: RANKIN. Now, Chief Rowley, are you: famillar with the' provislong In the appropriation act with regard to the FBI concerning thelr protection of the per- son of the President ? Mc_ RowLEY Yeg: Mr: RANKIN. You know of that, do you? Mr: RowLEY. Yes ; I do. Historically, that was frst passed in 1910. It stated tbat because of the limited number 0f Secret Service men at that time, tbat appropriation _9 certain given fgure_was to be used by the U.S. marshals to agsist the Secret Service: Mr. RANKIN . Was the Secret Service opposed to that provision in the appro- priation act for the FBI? Mc: RowLEY_ No; It bas never oppoged tbat provision over tbe years: I started to say, Mr Rankln--subsequently, after the founding of the FBI, this wag transferred, apparently, from the marshals to the FBI, and it bas been in the appropriations a9 8s I can remember: We have never objected to that appropriation: Mr: RANKIN . Now, there is some language in HR. 4158, I understand, which deals with the permanent organizatlon 0f the Government that you are objecting to; is that right? 473 long

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